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Post by vit246 on Mar 17, 2017 19:01:58 GMT
Yeah, at very at least Dalish Inquisitors (and all the races, really) needed more opportunities to at least state that things in their clan are different or at the very Bioware needs to firmly establish that the Dalish are not a monoculture by any means and is very much divided on certain ideas on what is elven identity. I resent Bioware's implication that clans like Lavellan and Mahariel are "an exception to the rule" or "a credit to their race" or "one of the good ones"
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 17, 2017 19:50:01 GMT
gervaise21, Yeah, at very at least Dalish Inquisitors (and all the races, really) needed more opportunities to at least state that things in their clan are different or at the very Bioware needs to firmly establish that the Dalish are not a monoculture by any means and is very much divided on certain ideas on what is elven identity. See, the thing is that I can very much imagine that each clan would develop their own way of doing things. Ten years between each clan meeting is a decent chunk of time. In between that time period, they are isolated from other elves and intentionally insular and protective of themselves, which is understandable. Different regions (of Thedas) and their non-elf people will require different types of dealings. I've no doubt that the elves in, say, Rivain, interact with the humans in those lands in a different way than they interact with Orlesians, and different still from Tevinters. The self-imposed isolation of the elves, however necessary it is, can contribute to different ideas about different aspects of Dalish life.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 17, 2017 22:53:01 GMT
I agree that how each clan deals with other races would be entirely down to their location in Thedas, the attitudes of those races towards them and their own need to interact with them or not. We have previously been told that there is a semi-permanent settlement of Dalish up in Rivain, which makes sense in view of the locals attitudes towards different cultures and magic generally. We also know there are some particularly aggressive and isolationist Dalish up in Antiva. I think it is highly unlikely that either of these two groups would make the long trek to engage in the gathering of the clans, so would lose touch with latest developments among their southern counterparts. Even so, that is not to say they would differ greatly in their core beliefs and culture. As I say above, these things would have been established during the time of the Dales and it was out of a desire to maintain them that they went on the run in the first place. Ten years is no time at all between gatherings for a group of people who are intent on maintain their established culture and recovering whatever else they can of the past.
It seems rather ridiculous that the writers established a common culture for this grouping of elves in the first two games and the lore books, only to deny it in DAI. Either there is a definite meaning to what it means to be a Dalish, beyond simply a name and nomadic lifestyle, or the writers should dispense with the pretence that they ever had one, which would be a pity after the effort that was previously put into establishing them as a distinct culture.
As for Sera, it comes across as rather more than a desire to not be regarded as an elf. She it outright hostile towards the Dalish culture. She demands that a Dalish Inquisitor reject their culture after the Arbor Wilds if they are to maintain their relationship. She calls the Dalish "tits" for living in the woods like they do, seemingly having no appreciation that they do this to maintain their independence and not be pushed around by nobles into accepting a culture they do not wish to. Contrast her attitude to the Dalish with that of Zevran. He ran away to join the Dalish for a time but decided the life wasn't for him and went back to the Crows. However, he doesn't hold their culture against them and seems to respect their desire to maintain it. When he again goes on the run from the Crows, he initially seeks refuge with a Dalish clan but not wishing to bring them into danger, goes into the wilds. The Dalish clan respect him for doing this.
This is why I suggest that Sera's attitude towards the Dalish seems to be based off an idea of them given to her by someone else, rather than actually interacting with them. In fact it seems to reflect a view of the Dalish as depicted in Masked Empire rather than the experience the player had previously been given of the Dalish in DAO and DA2. Solas' view of them likewise seems to come from a similar source, which is understandable considering Felassan was his henchman. However, Felassan's dismissal of the Dalish as only caring about the past and being pompous idiots did not do their culture justice, yet this seems to be reflected in the attitudes of both Solas and Sera. The only person in DAI who says anything good about the Dalish is Leliana, which at least explains why she is so determined to restore the Canticle of Shartan to the Chant.
It just seems a shame that anyone who has not played DAO or DA2, so only knows the Dalish from DAI, would be likely to adopt a similar attitude to the Dalish as Solas and Sera. After all plenty of people who have played the games seem willing to dismiss the Dalish on the basis of what their favourite characters say about them, instead of viewing them from the range of experience we had in the previous two games. Which is why I am concerned that the Dalish are being set up to be the fall guys to the plot of Fen'Harel, becoming cannon fodder in subsequent games. I only hope we are given the opportunity to save them from his schemes because to be honest I am far more concerned about saving the Dalish than I am about redeeming Solas.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 17, 2017 23:51:32 GMT
It seems rather ridiculous that the writers established a common culture for this grouping of elves in the first two games and the lore books, only to deny it in DAI. Either there is a definite meaning to what it means to be a Dalish, beyond simply a name and nomadic lifestyle, or the writers should dispense with the pretence that they ever had one, which would be a pity after the effort that was previously put into establishing them as a distinct culture. You are exaggerating here and it does you no credit. Just because they established SOME different things in DAI does not indicate that they are denying common Dalish culture they have established such as a Keeper having their First, the various traditions associated with the hunt, the use of their aravels and importance of the halla, the worship of their gods*, the ways of courting and mating, and other such things. Those things still exist and are a part of what makes the Dalish in Thedas. * We don't know how far the Trespasser knowledge has spread, so don't bother refuting this.
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Post by xerrai on Mar 18, 2017 1:39:51 GMT
Yeah, at very at least Dalish Inquisitors (and all the races, really) needed more opportunities to at least state that things in their clan are different or at the very Bioware needs to firmly establish that the Dalish are not a monoculture by any means and is very much divided on certain ideas on what is elven identity. I resent the implication by Bioware that clans likethe Lavellan are some kind of " exception to the rule" or " a credit to their race" or " one of the good ones" I sorta resented the implication as well. They make it seem like the majority of the Dalish practice the three mage rule, with the Inquisitor's clan being a mere exception or an unusual outlier. As if it is simply an integrated commonality amongst all clans that excess mages are exiled to the wilderness. With how they structured dialogue, it seems like the devs wanted to make the three mage rule a universal trait among the clans, rather than a rule that can apply by a clan-by-clan basis.
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Post by vit246 on Mar 18, 2017 2:39:40 GMT
I sorta resented the implication as well. They make it seem like the majority of the Dalish practice the three mage rule, with the Inquisitor's clan being a mere exception or an unusual outlier. As if it is simply an integrated commonality amongst all clans that excess mages are exiled to the wilderness. With how they structured dialogue, it seems like the devs wanted to make the three mage rule a universal trait among the clans, rather than a rule that can apply by a clan-by-clan basis. The devs also wanted players to shut up about the Dalish positive treatment of mages so they could have their "muh grey morality!" with mages and templars and chantry. Meanwhile we have the Rivaini and the Avvar and even Nevarrans with their Mortalitasi.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 18, 2017 13:09:32 GMT
I am not exaggerating about the way the Dalish are presented in DAI. When Solas gives his impression of the Dalish, which can be to any race not just another elf, he emphasises how they have grown apart over the years so there isn't a standard culture among them. Strangely enough though, this doesn't seem to stop him denigrating the Dalish en mass. When a Dalish Inquisitor is given the opportunity to comment upon an aspect of the culture, it is always on the basis that this is "not how my clan do it", rather than saying "this is not how the majority of Dalish do it". When Minaeve is telling you about her experience, she prefaces it with "you know how it is among the clans". This was news to me but the only come back was to say that my clan don't do it that way. Ditto when Morrigan makes some comment that reflects badly on Dalish practice as a whole. So as other posters have stated, it makes it appear as though Lavellan's clan are the exception to the rule rather than being representative of Dalish culture as a whole.
Quite a lot of things are not even touched upon in DAI. Strangely enough the Dalish courting and mating culture is never mentioned (apart from a specific reference in Trespasser), which I would have thought would have some relevance to their relationships in game. Most information is given via codices (which could be missed) or other people who are not Dalish telling you what your culture should be. If the PC is not Dalish then any challenge to the assertions by Minaeve, Iron Bull, Solas or Morrigan about the Dalish is presumably totally missing from the dialogue and so would give the impression that what they say about the Dalish is true. That is what I and others are pointing out in our posts.
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Post by loquacious on Mar 22, 2017 20:47:21 GMT
So I'm finally doing a playthrough as a mage EF, and trying to romance Solas but heres where my character is coming from: She is genuinely curious about other races outside of her clan. She believes that the maker is above the old gods and is the creator to end all be all. She wants to learn more to be diplomatic to ensure her people's culture is preserved. Now going at it from that viewpoint. Upon going and interacting with Solas, she wants to learn more about the elves, which makes sense and he has a lot of information, but when you ask him to help your people he gets pissed. Seriously? ISN'T THAT THE REASON FOR EVERYTHING YOU ARE DOING EGGBOY? UGH. ahem. I understand that each clan has grown apart and clung to different things, but I felt there needed to be an elven conclave to have elders and keepers along with Solas to explain what the past was, what to preserve and how to move forward as a culture or race. Trying for something like that would have been a better approach personally but considering how independent other clans can be it might not have worked. Also I feel like for Sera, she would be disinterested in it because she doesn't think it needs to be preserved. for her people are people and money talks. Other than rumors, I haven't ran into anything yet that would be discriminating. I felt it more in DAO, especially as a city elf. personally I think that elves shouldn't be subjected to the alienages and that if a man were to be poor that they would enlist themselves to serve a house or the army.
To be honest, I get that Tevinter enslaved them initially but why? I'm a bit fuzzy on the lore of it.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 22, 2017 21:49:24 GMT
To be honest, I get that Tevinter enslaved them initially but why? I'm a bit fuzzy on the lore of it. Why did Tevinter enslave them? Really, considering human nature and the history of conquerors and conquered, the answer is essentially "because they could." The elves were weak due to in-fighting and the raising of the veil. This left them open for Tevinter to come in and do their thing. Like the Romans in our real world, they took slaves of those they conquered.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 22, 2017 22:41:57 GMT
The enslavement of the elves by Tevinter is something that seems to now be open to question as to when exactly it occurred. Originally Tevinter's own version of history seemed to back up the Dalish one, that is they discovered a city in the Forest of Arlathan, fought a war against the elves, were victorious and took the survivors as captives of war. The Dalish maintained this was the original city of Arlathan and the Tevinter seemed to assume as much themselves. Then Abelas says that was only a remnant of what went before, so whatever city the Tevinter conquered it was not the real Arlathan.
Since the Dalish believe they felt the Quickening (their loss of immortality) around the same time as humans appeared in northern Thedas, this partly accounts for why they thought contact with them was responsible. However, this had nothing to do with the city in the forest being conquered by Tevinter, because this didn't occur for some 2,000+ years after the first arrival of the humans. Besides which, it is obvious from Trespasser that the elves were aware that something catastrophic had happened at the time Solas raised the Veil, so it is odd they didn't connect the loss of immortality with it as well.
What now needs explaining is what happened to the majority of elves in the period between Solas shutting away the gods and the fall of the city in the forest. If the Tevinter truly were not aware of the existence of the elves until they discovered the city in the forest, what happened to the rest of them? How were the elves in the forest existing in the intervening period? If they were in uthenera until Tevinter invaded the forest, why were there thousands of what would appear to be modern elves there, since they were the ones that were enslaved? If they were in uthenera, what were they waiting for? Did they assume their gods would eventually return? Did they know that Fen'Harel intended to recover his strength and then reverse his actions? Otherwise, if they were aware they had been shut away by him (which their lore suggests they do), why weren't they actively trying to find a way to reverse the procedure whilst he was asleep?
Dorian claims to have seen foci like the orb of Fen'Harel in pictures of ancient Tevinter Dreamers, which would suggest they found these in elven ruins. Why did the elves abandon them? Or did they in fact come from elves who worked with the early Tevene in establishing their empire? Was there far more co-operation between the surviving elves and the new human arrivals than previously known? Was this why the Dalish lore talks of the elves being adversely affected by contact with them? Is the reason magic got into the human race in the first place the fact they interbred with elves and the resulting children were all human, so no trace of their ancestry remains? Dalish lore also mentions elves suffering human diseases. So is the reason there were not more elves around in the intervening period down to the fact that those who mingled with humans all died of disease to which they were not resistant (rather like a lot of native American tribes in contact with the first Europeans)?
In defence of the early Imperium, I would add that their histories indicate that the elves were definitely the aggressors when it came to the city in the forest. Bearing in mind how the sentinels attack in the Arbor Wilds and even the Dalish used to shun the place because of the dangers associated with going there, it seems likely that the Tevinter historians were speaking the truth about their initial overtures to the elves of Arlathan Forest being peaceful but that their envoys were killed. They then put up with years of aggression from the elves before the Archon and the Magisterium finally decided enough was enough and went to war. In view of this it is hardly surprising that they were not favourably disposed towards any survivors and enslaved them. Chantry propaganda and the Dalish have always painted Tevinter as the villains in this but whatever the Imperium later became, at the time I think Tevinter was more sinned against than sinning.
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Post by loquacious on Mar 23, 2017 2:41:19 GMT
Since it fell 2k years ago, is there a possible connection between that and the start of darkspawn? Not blight since it would take a while for them to dig for the archdemon?
Also, The ink used in the blood writing (tattoo) is considered sacred, anyone know why?
(I ask lots of questions IRL, so if I'm asking too many, let me know!)
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Post by Iddy on Mar 23, 2017 17:07:53 GMT
I agree that how each clan deals with other races would be entirely down to their location in Thedas, the attitudes of those races towards them and their own need to interact with them or not. We have previously been told that there is a semi-permanent settlement of Dalish up in Rivain, which makes sense in view of the locals attitudes towards different cultures and magic generally. We also know there are some particularly aggressive and isolationist Dalish up in Antiva. I think it is highly unlikely that either of these two groups would make the long trek to engage in the gathering of the clans, so would lose touch with latest developments among their southern counterparts. Even so, that is not to say they would differ greatly in their core beliefs and culture. As I say above, these things would have been established during the time of the Dales and it was out of a desire to maintain them that they went on the run in the first place. Ten years is no time at all between gatherings for a group of people who are intent on maintain their established culture and recovering whatever else they can of the past. It seems rather ridiculous that the writers established a common culture for this grouping of elves in the first two games and the lore books, only to deny it in DAI. Either there is a definite meaning to what it means to be a Dalish, beyond simply a name and nomadic lifestyle, or the writers should dispense with the pretence that they ever had one, which would be a pity after the effort that was previously put into establishing them as a distinct culture. As for Sera, it comes across as rather more than a desire to not be regarded as an elf. She it outright hostile towards the Dalish culture. She demands that a Dalish Inquisitor reject their culture after the Arbor Wilds if they are to maintain their relationship. She calls the Dalish "tits" for living in the woods like they do, seemingly having no appreciation that they do this to maintain their independence and not be pushed around by nobles into accepting a culture they do not wish to. Contrast her attitude to the Dalish with that of Zevran. He ran away to join the Dalish for a time but decided the life wasn't for him and went back to the Crows. However, he doesn't hold their culture against them and seems to respect their desire to maintain it. When he again goes on the run from the Crows, he initially seeks refuge with a Dalish clan but not wishing to bring them into danger, goes into the wilds. The Dalish clan respect him for doing this. This is why I suggest that Sera's attitude towards the Dalish seems to be based off an idea of them given to her by someone else, rather than actually interacting with them. In fact it seems to reflect a view of the Dalish as depicted in Masked Empire rather than the experience the player had previously been given of the Dalish in DAO and DA2. Solas' view of them likewise seems to come from a similar source, which is understandable considering Felassan was his henchman. However, Felassan's dismissal of the Dalish as only caring about the past and being pompous idiots did not do their culture justice, yet this seems to be reflected in the attitudes of both Solas and Sera. The only person in DAI who says anything good about the Dalish is Leliana, which at least explains why she is so determined to restore the Canticle of Shartan to the Chant. It just seems a shame that anyone who has not played DAO or DA2, so only knows the Dalish from DAI, would be likely to adopt a similar attitude to the Dalish as Solas and Sera. After all plenty of people who have played the games seem willing to dismiss the Dalish on the basis of what their favourite characters say about them, instead of viewing them from the range of experience we had in the previous two games. Which is why I am concerned that the Dalish are being set up to be the fall guys to the plot of Fen'Harel, becoming cannon fodder in subsequent games. I only hope we are given the opportunity to save them from his schemes because to be honest I am far more concerned about saving the Dalish than I am about redeeming Solas. There is a moment in Trespasser that is supposed to show how Sera has become more tolerant. She asks the Dalish Inquisitor if the latter is feeling alright after learning about the Evanuris and says something like "You're cool, but those who made me feel like crap still can eat it". The idea seems to be that Sera did interact with the Dalish in the past.
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Post by vit246 on Mar 23, 2017 17:50:36 GMT
There is a moment in Trespasser that is supposed to show how Sera has become more tolerant. She asks the Dalish Inquisitor if the latter is feeling alright after learning about the Evanuris and says something like "You're cool, but those who made me feel like crap still can eat it". The idea seems to be that Sera did interact with the Dalish in the past. We still do not have the proper full context of Sera's "interaction" with the Dalish in the past. And given the incessantly negative potshots at the Dalish with each game, I am gonna take it with a grain of salt.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 23, 2017 19:17:10 GMT
With regard to the origins of the darkspawn there are many theories on this and revelations in the Descent and Trespasser have only added more possibilities. However, I don't think the destruction of the city in Arlathan Forest was connected to their creation.
Mind you, information gathered from elven captives could have encouraged the later assault on the Golden City. The gap between the two events was some 600 years and initially the Tevinter seemed engrossed in spreading out across Thedas and also for a time was embroiled in a civil war over the succession to Archon. The entry in World of Thedas says that it was the enlarged slave workforce that enabled their subsequent success. We know that Corypheus suggested to his slave that their blood was more potent than other races in blood magic spells and Kieran confirmed there is something different about elven blood, so there was an indirect connection between the fall of the city and the release of the darkspawn scourge because it is likely that the majority of the slaves used in the ritual that opened the Veil were elves. I'm inclined to believe Corypheus that the "darkness" was already there to be discovered and it was he and his fellow Magisters who found it and absorbed the taint.
I think though that the origins of the taint and thus the darkspawn lay far further back in history, may be even before the Evanuris were shut away.
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Post by Walter Black on Mar 24, 2017 15:03:08 GMT
I sorta resented the implication as well. They make it seem like the majority of the Dalish practice the three mage rule, with the Inquisitor's clan being a mere exception or an unusual outlier. As if it is simply an integrated commonality amongst all clans that excess mages are exiled to the wilderness. With how they structured dialogue, it seems like the devs wanted to make the three mage rule a universal trait among the clans, rather than a rule that can apply by a clan-by-clan basis. The devs also wanted players to shut up about the Dalish positive treatment of mages so they could have their "muh grey morality!" with mages and templars and chantry. Meanwhile we have the Rivaini and the Avvar and even Nevarrans with their Mortalitasi. That sword cuts both ways; you could just as easily say that the fans and writers who idealize the Dalish, Rivaini, Avvar, and Mortalitasi ignored or deliberately violated the lore on all the prices and dangers of magic in Dragon Age, just so that they could have their Mary Sue Mage wish fulfillment and player entitlement.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 24, 2017 21:29:53 GMT
The thing is the portrayal of the Rivaini and the Mortalitasi was there from the beginning. The codices have always emphasised how the Rivaini have wise women who are really hedge mages that allow themselves to become deliberately possessed. The Dalish seemed to fall somewhere between the Chantry and the Rivaini in their attitude towards mages and spirits. Then, of course, we also had Tevinter, where they seemed to have no problem with mages and spirits and of course where the Mortalitasi originally came from. This is where players got the idea from that there might be something other than fear of rampant abominations behind the Chantry's insistence on locking their mages up and having them under constant surveillance.
What seemed to be clear from DAO was that there is a danger from young untrained mages being left to their own devices without proper guidance. That is something that was consistent with every culture. The Tevinter believe in proper training of mages, just as the Dalish did. There was also a danger over ambitious mages abusing their power or ignoring their elders when it came to the use of magic that might endanger their peers. This is why Merrill's banishment from the clan was understandable. It wasn't that they had too many mages but that she was playing around with magic that the Dalish regarded as dangerous. The prohibition against blood magic might also stem from a cultural memory of all their ancestors had suffered from blood magic experimentation, so it was actually felt insulting to their memory to utilise the magic so strongly associated with Tevinter.
What seemed odd about DAI was that they went to one extreme with the Dalish in having them so shit scared mages that they feel they can't possibly cope with more than 3 in a clan, no matter what their age or experience, to introducing the Avvar with a tradition much closer to the Rivaini model, except they didn't just have the older mages becoming deliberately possessed but apparently use the procedure to train their young mages too. This can hardly be due to fans idealising the Avvar since we had never met any up to then and codices had been thin on the ground as well. Previously the Avvar had simply been these rather aggressive barbarians who lived up in the mountains and periodically invaded the lowlands. They were the bad guys of history. Then in JoH we discover they aren't so bad after all. The Jaws were the exception to the rule and the other clans were quite reasonable people. Whilst lack of knowledge and lowlander prejudice could account for some of the previous misunderstanding in general terms, the attitude to magic and spirits was jarring when compared with that of the Dalish. It is even stranger when you consider that the Avvar do not have a tradition of all their ancestors being magical.
Then on reading World of Thedas 2, I discovered that the Mortalitasi, unlike the Rivaini wise women, were not something that had existed from before the time of the Chantry but had been introduced in the modern era during the Glory Age. How on earth did that come about? This was under the rule of Caspar Pentaghast who assumed control of Nevarra only 26 years after the fall of the Dales. So apparently just because Nevarra claimed to worship the Maker, apparenty the Chantry and the Templar Order had no problem with the establishment of an entirely new death cult in the country immediately to the north of Orlais that was in contradiction of the accepted Chantry rituals concerning the dead.
It is discrepancies like these that make me realise it is not worth trying to learn the lore of Thedas for anything other than my own amusement and fan fiction because the writers will likely contradict themselves in later games or books. This is what lay behind my own personal objection to the alteration of the lore with regard to the Dalish. It was not idealising them or having a Mary Sue wish fulfilment; it was the fact that I had taken the trouble to immerse myself in the lore in order that I could properly play my Dalish PC and then found that I was being constantly told that what I understood was common practice among the Dalish, was in fact not the case. In contrast to this, Minaeve introduced her story with the words "you know how it is among the Dalish". Actually I didn't but apparently that was simply because my clan did things differently to everyone else, as did Sabrae clan and Zathrian's clan, which I had previously understood were meant to be fairly typical of the race.
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Post by xerrai on Mar 25, 2017 2:50:34 GMT
The devs also wanted players to shut up about the Dalish positive treatment of mages so they could have their "muh grey morality!" with mages and templars and chantry. Meanwhile we have the Rivaini and the Avvar and even Nevarrans with their Mortalitasi. That sword cuts both ways; you could just as easily say that the fans and writers who idealize the Dalish, Rivaini, Avvar, and Mortalitasi ignored or deliberately violated the lore on all the prices and dangers of magic in Dragon Age, just so that they could have their Mary Sue Mage wish fulfillment and player entitlement. I would believe this if the majority actually ignored the dangers of magic. But so far that does not seem to be the case. For the most part it is just a mere refusal to believe the Chantry/Circle way is the only way to handle magic safely (and their method isn't exactly foolproof either) and so far the game seems to acknowledge this. We have several lore and codex entries that imply that the groups you mentioned just may have a system of dealing with magic that is just as good, (if not superior) to that of the Circle. We even have in game depictions of such. But it is a topic for debate that will be continually explored in the series itself. But fact of the matter is, even in game the dangers of magic in these same cultures have been mentioned or explored. The Rivaini have a higher hostile abomination rate (as opposed to the supposedly stable ones they practice), several Dalish clans have been wiped off the map entirely due to the misused of magic and the mortalitasi are...well actually don't have any concrete evidence/codex that states they are more prone to being possessed or anything but we are fairly certain of shady political machinations. That being said, we do have an instance of a non-mortalitasi necromancer going bat-shiz crazy and trying to Frankenstein his wife back so there's that. Honestly, the issue with the Dalish "three mage rule" is less that it exists and more that it is portrayed as being a universal rule among the Dalish. Even though previous games have shown otherwise. It's not just a codex thing either bot a party banter and actual in-game examples.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 25, 2017 14:29:04 GMT
Please would you tell me where you learned that the Rivaini have a higher hostile abomination rate or that several Dalish clans have been wiped off the map entirely due to misuse of magic? I have not been aware of anything to suggest this in conversations, codices in game or the lore books.
True the Sabrae clan could potentially be wiped out by Hawke's party and Zathrian's clan by the Warden's, but this was only the indirect result of misuse of magic, not the actions of rampant abominations. In Masked Empire it is the actions of Michel that bring about the eradication of the Virnehn clan, even if the Keeper was playing with fire in summoning an ancient demon in the first place. In none of these cases did the number of mages in the clan have any relevance to the outcome.
If we had been told that several clans had been destroyed by their own mages turning on them, then the new lore introduced in DAI would at least have some history behind it to explain why clans generally felt they could not cope. Even our own response to Vivienne did not deny that they would get rid of any surplus over 3 but that they would endeavour to find another clan to send them to, which is why Vivienne then asks what they would do if there was no vacancy elsewhere. It totally turned on its head the idea behind the 3 mage rule introduced in DA2. There it was a case that three was the number of mages that it was felt was sufficient for each clan's needs, so if they had more than this and another clan did not have any apprentices to their Keeper, so raising the possibility that they might end up with no Keeper when they died, the other clan would allow them to adopt one of their mage children in order to ensure that did not happen. In that scenario it was clear that the Dalish felt it imperative that each clan should have a Keeper and the Keeper should always be a mage. Merrill asserted that this rule had been brought in because there was a shortage of mages in the clans as magic appeared to be dying out within their ranks. This is why, given the importance they place on having a mage to lead each community and the gradual reduction in the number of magically gifted Dalish, the idea they would simply abandon a mage child to the wilds or kick out an older one to make their way alone in the world is so absurd.
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Post by xerrai on Mar 26, 2017 22:37:50 GMT
Please would you tell me where you learned that the Rivaini have a higher hostile abomination rate or that several Dalish clans have been wiped off the map entirely due to misuse of magic? I have not been aware of anything to suggest this in conversations, codices in game or the lore books. True the Sabrae clan could potentially be wiped out by Hawke's party and Zathrian's clan by the Warden's, but this was only the indirect result of misuse of magic, not the actions of rampant abominations. In Masked Empire it is the actions of Michel that bring about the eradication of the Virnehn clan, even if the Keeper was playing with fire in summoning an ancient demon in the first place. In none of these cases did the number of mages in the clan have any relevance to the outcome. If we had been told that several clans had been destroyed by their own mages turning on them, then the new lore introduced in DAI would at least have some history behind it to explain why clans generally felt they could not cope. Even our own response to Vivienne did not deny that they would get rid of any surplus over 3 but that they would endeavour to find another clan to send them to, which is why Vivienne then asks what they would do if there was no vacancy elsewhere. It totally turned on its head the idea behind the 3 mage rule introduced in DA2. There it was a case that three was the number of mages that it was felt was sufficient for each clan's needs, so if they had more than this and another clan did not have any apprentices to their Keeper, so raising the possibility that they might end up with no Keeper when they died, the other clan would allow them to adopt one of their mage children in order to ensure that did not happen. In that scenario it was clear that the Dalish felt it imperative that each clan should have a Keeper and the Keeper should always be a mage. Merrill asserted that this rule had been brought in because there was a shortage of mages in the clans as magic appeared to be dying out within their ranks. This is why, given the importance they place on having a mage to lead each community and the gradual reduction in the number of magically gifted Dalish, the idea they would simply abandon a mage child to the wilds or kick out an older one to make their way alone in the world is so absurd. As for the Rivaini one, I remembered it from being from a dev on the original Bioware forums. I am currently having a hard time finding a copy of what exactly was said. Though I guess it should be mentioned that he did not necessarily compare Rivaini's hostile abomination rate to the rest of Thedas all that much. If I recall correctly, all he said was that the rate was "generally higher". Though you are right that not many Dalish clans have been wiped out due to hostile abominations. "Several" was bad word usage on my part. And yes, I did mentally include Clan Virnehn with how the Keeper summoned a Forbidden One which just seemed very risky imo. I just supposed clans disappearing due to magical circumstances would not be unheard of, especially if what they say is true and that, in the event of a possessed Keeper, the clan is obligated to slay it. Not an easy thing to do, that. Especially if it caught them unawares. And lastly, I never really liked the "three mage rule" myself. If there was a reason for the addition, they barely explored it. If at all. But right now it just seems arbitrarily forced.
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Post by shechinah on Mar 27, 2017 11:46:48 GMT
As for the Rivaini one, I remembered it from being from a dev on the original Bioware forums. I am currently having a hard time finding a copy of what exactly was said. Though I guess it should be mentioned that he did not necessarily compare Rivaini's hostile abomination rate to the rest of Thedas all that much. If I recall correctly, all he said was that the rate was "generally higher". I've looked and it appears that it was that David Gaider who said that. I'm still seeing if I can find the exact quote since things may have been lost in paraphrasinmg. Here is the possibly paraphrased quote: "We don't see much of Rivain, so we don't know that this is true, but according to Word of Gaider there's a higher rate of abominations there than in the rest of Thedas."Thank you, Fextralife. Source: fextralife.com/forums/p3125083/mages--demons/
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Post by shechinah on Mar 27, 2017 11:53:39 GMT
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Apr 12, 2017 7:32:52 GMT
I recognize that necromancy is a sin against nature, but I feel like this is probably a useful link to share, so...
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Post by arvaarad on Apr 12, 2017 13:06:47 GMT
Yeah, at very at least Dalish Inquisitors (and all the races, really) needed more opportunities to at least state that things in their clan are different or at the very Bioware needs to firmly establish that the Dalish are not a monoculture by any means and is very much divided on certain ideas on what is elven identity. I resent Bioware's implication that clans like Lavellan and Mahariel are "an exception to the rule" or "a credit to their race" or "one of the good ones"That's largely the in-universe humans and Qunari putting forth that narrative. In other words, factions who have a pretty clear bias against the Dalish. In Iron Bull's case, we don't even know if Dalish told him the "too many mages" factoid, or if he's doing his usual "Ben-Hassrath training, remember? I will now guess your background and assume I'm right about it." If the latter, any Qunari biases are bound to creep into his guess, as he likely hasn't met many Dalish elves other than Dalish. We don't even know if Dalish is a reliable source on the Dalish. A Ben-Hassrath in contact with a Viddasala would be a prime target for ancient elves who needed to - what's that thing Dalish said - "see the world a little." Vivienne is culturally Orlesian and very pro-Circle, so her view of the Dalish isn't that surprising. Ditto for Solas, he's clearly not happy with the current state of... anything, so he's going to emphasize the tiniest mistakes and inaccuracies in Dalish lore. He's not going to give much credit for the stuff they remembered correctly. So in short, most of the sources we have are deeply unreliable. In situations where we had firsthand contact with Dalish clans, they were ordinary folk. Suspicious, maybe, but rightfully so, given all those biases outsiders have about them. It's only through secondhand sources that we get this more negative picture.
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Post by smudjygirl on Apr 12, 2017 15:00:19 GMT
I think the biggest problem was most things were separate from the story. In Origins it all connected, but lore was also mainly in the Codex. And it was meant to be able to be a stand alone game. This is probably the defense of the changes.
I didn't really have a problem with the portrayal of the Dalish. There were secretive and against outsiders, just as they were in other games. They didn't quite trust the Dalish Inquisitor because of their connection to outsiders and newfound position in the "Chantry" forces. The Grey Warden had the fact they were a Grey Warden to protect them from this.
As well as this, the places connected with Elven Lore weren't really explored as a way of giving a better portrayal. And Dalish characters rarely ever got to give their opinion of cultures, so we had a every one sided view of things.
My understanding of the Mage children is that they usually exchange them between clans at the gatherings, and that they keep the amount of mages in the clan to the Keeper, First and Second. Lower risk of abominations that way. But i do remember reading Elves are more likely to be mages, so i would imagine the Dalish have many mages in their ranks.
We really didn't get many chances to explore Dalish culture, so it can just be "outsiders with skewed opinions" kind of deal. There's a lot of ways the Lore can be built upon.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 12, 2017 20:15:19 GMT
As I've stated above, I could go with the biased views of outsiders interpretation of the lore explanation if I didn't have Minaeve actually say to me "you know how it is in the clans". It also came after I suggested that her magic would have been valued among the Dalish, to which I get her scathing indictment of them. This was clearly emphasising that the majority of clans did as Minaeve experienced and thus it should come as no shock to Lavellan to hear this. If this was not the general rule among the clans, then instead of saying that my clan didn't do that or simply expressing sorrow at what she had to endure, I should have been able to condemn her clan for their actions as not being typical of the Dalish culture and that they were wrong to have made her believe that their actions were the norm.
Then there is all the times when Morrigan is holding forth about what "typical" Dalish do or suggesting it was sacrilege to place Fen'Harel outside Mythal's temple. Admittedly Solas pulls her up on that one but I would like to have pointed out that the Dalish always have a statue of Fen'Harel placed on the edge of their camp to ward off danger and so having his statue on guard like that actually seemed consistent with this to my Dalish elf because I repeat, it was on the outside, not within the inner sanctum as all the other gods proved to be. In view of what we are later told by Solas in Trespasser, having all the gods still honoured within Mythal's temple made even less sense considering Abelas tells us she was murdered and Solas says the other Evanuris were responsible.
I hope they are going to come up with a good explanation for what exactly the city in Arlathan Forest actually was that was conquered because apparently it wasn't Arlathan as Solas had destroyed that 2000+ years earlier, yet for some peculiar reason both the Dalish and Tevinter think it was.
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