inherit
ღ I am a golem. Obviously.
440
0
24,190
phoray
Dreadnaw Rising
12,573
August 2016
phoray
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by phoray on Aug 11, 2016 9:33:50 GMT
So, I've played as an open minded agnostic. I've played as an aggressive atheist. I haven't played a devout andrastian, but I assume one can play one pretty well. I've seen lines about the Stone for dwarves, and I think I've even seen lines about the Creators for elves.
But can you believe in both Andraste AND (insert other religion here) like Ameridan did? Or is the game too limited for that, and it has to be within the realm of head cannon so such scenarios?
|
|
inherit
∯ Alien Wizard
729
0
Sept 14, 2023 6:08:41 GMT
9,897
Ieldra
4,771
August 2016
ieldra
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
25190
6519
|
Post by Ieldra on Aug 11, 2016 9:43:25 GMT
As far as I have explored things, the options for explicit expressions of religious preferences are limited to one religion, or none. The spoken lines don't assume you're *exclusively* following one religion, so headcanon is easy.
|
|
inherit
ღ I am a golem. Obviously.
440
0
24,190
phoray
Dreadnaw Rising
12,573
August 2016
phoray
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by phoray on Aug 11, 2016 9:52:44 GMT
As far as I have explored things, the options for explicit expressions of religious preferences are limited to one religion, or none. The spoken lines don't assume you're *exclusively* following one religion, so headcanon is easy. Yeah... That's what I was guessing. The closest i can think of for expressing belief in two sets of religions is that Cassandra conversation where she asks if you can make room in your heart for "more gods". Not sure how the line goes. I pretty much want to set up Cassandra with Ameridan for my Cassmance Quiz. I really admire him as an interesting character. But his dual belief is one of his talking points, and then I wondered how well any race could have dual beliefs in the game.
|
|
inherit
∯ Alien Wizard
729
0
Sept 14, 2023 6:08:41 GMT
9,897
Ieldra
4,771
August 2016
ieldra
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
25190
6519
|
Post by Ieldra on Aug 11, 2016 10:01:42 GMT
I pretty much want to set up Cassandra with Ameridan for my Cassmance Quiz. I really admire him as an interesting character. But his dual belief is one of his talking points, and then I wondered how well any race could have dual beliefs in the game. I'd say that's easy. To believe in more than one set of gods - in the sense of acknowledging their existence and status - was pretty much standard in antiquity. Only some of them weren't your gods, so you didn't worship them.
|
|
Sah291
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Prime Posts: 1,240
Prime Likes: 1340
Posts: 862 Likes: 1,935
inherit
306
0
1,935
Sah291
862
August 2016
sah291
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
1,240
1340
|
Post by Sah291 on Aug 11, 2016 14:07:19 GMT
Yes I think so. The Dalish don't necessarily believe the Creators created the whole entire universe, and their creation story has them showing up sometime after the creation of the sun and the land. So it's possible from a Dalish perspective to believe they were also part of the Maker's creation, acting according to the Maker's will, or even aspects of the Maker like Giselle suggests. If the Creators were originally spirits, then perhaps they could have been among the Maker's first children, and the Chant could be partially correct, alluding to a war between spirits after the creation of the Veil, and that some resented humans in the aftermath.
Post Tresspasser, it gets more complicated, because now it is confirmed they really did exist, and that they might not have been as benevolent as the Dalish believe, and that they could have been very powerful elven mages who weren't necessarily gods at all. I think that revelation alone, more than the possible existence of the Maker, might be a monkey wrench in their beliefs.
|
|
ddj
N1
Posts: 21 Likes: 17
inherit
536
0
17
ddj
21
August 2016
ddj
|
Post by ddj on Aug 13, 2016 20:14:13 GMT
Favoring the elves as I do, I play as a devout elven pantheon member. It brings me no end of joy to tweak the Chantry. Frankly, as I look at it, I have always viewed Tevinter in general as "bad guys" although I do like Dorian and obviously not all Tevinters are the same. Let them abolish slavery and I will reconsider. For that reason I also view the Chantry with a jaundiced eye. Reading all of those exalted march markers was not to my taste although I always find the codex interesting.
|
|
Heimdall
N6
∯ Interjector in Chief
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: HeimdallX
Posts: 5,574 Likes: 12,623
inherit
∯ Interjector in Chief
279
0
1
Apr 24, 2024 18:46:26 GMT
12,623
Heimdall
5,574
August 2016
heimdall
Heimdall
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
HeimdallX
|
Post by Heimdall on Aug 13, 2016 20:45:39 GMT
My canon Lavellan followed the Creators at first (After the Arbor Wilds and Trespasser, she's not sure what to believe)
I've always been interested by Ameridan's syncretism. Listening to what he says, I got the impression that he saw the Maker as the Creator deity, and that the Maker raised Andraste to the ranks of the elven gods
|
|
inherit
376
0
Oct 17, 2016 19:19:36 GMT
3,474
opuspace
2,129
August 2016
opuspace
|
Post by opuspace on Aug 14, 2016 6:32:55 GMT
Favoring the elves as I do, I play as a devout elven pantheon member. It brings me no end of joy to tweak the Chantry. Frankly, as I look at it, I have always viewed Tevinter in general as "bad guys" although I do like Dorian and obviously not all Tevinters are the same. Let them abolish slavery and I will reconsider. For that reason I also view the Chantry with a jaundiced eye. Reading all of those exalted march markers was not to my taste although I always find the codex interesting. I still wonder if the events of the Fade after Adamant would be as shocking to Andrastians as the Dalish finding out that their gods were not as benign as they think. Probably not, but what about finding out the last Inquisitor was Dalish? We get to see a Dalish inquisitor go through Sera and Solas expecting him/her to be arrogant about their culture even if they never bring the topic up, but I'm hard pressed to think of a character that's bracing for a self admitted Andrastian to be self-righteous and preachy before said Andrastian even got a sentence past that. Sure, we can roleplay one, but I'd be curious to see a non Dalish NPC who had severely negative experiences with proselytizing Chantry followers who weren't content enough to live and let live because they believed the chant must be spread by all means. In before jokes of "Andraste's Witnesses are at the door!" pops up.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
197
0
Apr 24, 2024 20:02:36 GMT
Deleted
0
Apr 24, 2024 20:02:36 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2016 7:46:48 GMT
Artemis acts like a sciensit about these kind of these, and is very open minded like Merill was in DA2, but eh, he'll eventually go full on atheist though when he finds out who Solas really is.
My other current Dalish Elf, Maranni, has seen too much to believe any of it, so she just shuns all religion in general. She's the type that will kill Solas if she ever saw him again, and keep in mind, she's a Blackwall romance, not a Solas one, making it very easy to shoot him down.
I tend to play a range of characters - some non believers, some believe in the Maker, and some other characters that believe in there own gods. Or even those that are uncertain of what to believe and what not.
|
|
bardox
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
Posts: 102 Likes: 221
inherit
980
0
221
bardox
102
Aug 14, 2016 15:56:19 GMT
August 2016
bardox
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by bardox on Aug 14, 2016 16:56:55 GMT
So, I've played as an open minded agnostic. I've played as an aggressive atheist. I haven't played a devout andrastian, but I assume one can play one pretty well. I've seen lines about the Stone for dwarves, and I think I've even seen lines about the Creators for elves. But can you believe in both Andraste AND (insert other religion here) like Ameridan did? Or is the game too limited for that, and it has to be within the realm of head cannon so such scenarios? I've tried playing all three versions as well. Is my character atheist, Agnostic, of devout? The devout characters are usually annoying (If you are Dalish this works well), the Atheists are just too hostile (If your a mage this works well), and the Agnostics are fairly tolerable (Works well for every other type). I haven't seen any dialog where you can lean towards more than one religion at a time. It's either one specific religion or none in my experience.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 24, 2024 16:06:43 GMT
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Aug 14, 2016 17:58:33 GMT
My Trevelyans are moderate Andrastian (as Hawkes), my Lavellan belive Creators. My qunari because of live between humans, belive the Maker, but do not accept the Chantry. But it seems pretty irrelevant, since all agree to his title because of the morale. The war times not the most adequate to question of the people's faith – if the people want a holy hero, the people receive a holy hero, an all will be happy and working/fighting well and happily. However no one of them says: he is the hero of Andraste, just that he don't know/he likes that title.
(Karl – moderate andrastian – built a chantry garden in the Skyhold, Fenrir – he believes in the Creators – built a herb garden, the others none yet...)
|
|
inherit
975
0
Apr 13, 2024 10:00:53 GMT
1,677
cloud9
3,871
Aug 14, 2016 11:41:22 GMT
August 2016
cloud9
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2
sicklyhour015
|
Post by cloud9 on Aug 14, 2016 21:34:46 GMT
|
|
inherit
1020
0
Nov 26, 2017 12:37:49 GMT
21,685
fylimar
5,415
Aug 16, 2016 18:31:34 GMT
August 2016
fylimar
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by fylimar on Aug 17, 2016 22:27:02 GMT
I myself find it hard to play a religious character, being not religious in any way in real life and really having no interest at all in religion, but I like reading about the old greek and roman gods or the norse or indian pantheons, so maybe that is the reason, I can tolerate the dalish belief the most: nice stories and colorful deities . But while playing as a Dalish, who clearly expressed on some occasions, that she is more into her gods than the Maker, I still had some opportunities far into the game, where I could have expressed some fondness for Andrastian beliefs, if I had wished it. I didn't chose those responses, so I don't know, what my elf would have said, but I guess it is possible to play a character, that beliefs in both (or maybe loosing one faith and finding another).
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
506
0
Apr 24, 2024 20:02:36 GMT
Deleted
0
Apr 24, 2024 20:02:36 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2016 23:24:47 GMT
But can you believe in both Andraste AND (insert other religion here) like Ameridan did? Or is the game too limited for that, and it has to be within the realm of head cannon so such scenarios? Yes, I've done that with both of my Lavellan lady Inquisitors and Dwarf Inquisitor in their runs. Main reason was I wanted them to follow their own path while still keeping to some of their beliefs. I don't think the game limits you on embracing other religions like Ameridan did.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,664
gervaise21
10,783
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Aug 21, 2016 8:31:31 GMT
I found it amusing when talking with Cassandra with my Dalish Inquisitors. If they said they believed in their own gods, she asked if they couldn't make room for one more, if they said they believed in the Maker, she expressed surprise. There is no pleasing some people. However, it did seem odd that the devout Cassandra is portrayed as the liberal minded one who is able to take the compromise view between the differing beliefs, when I thought the whole point of the Chantry teaching is that no other belief system is valid, whilst my Dalish is the one who is portrayed as narrow minded if I say quite honestly that I believe in the elven pantheon. Honesty didn't seem a strong point with the Andrastrians. My Dalish wanted to come clean about the whole Fade business but no one else seemed to think it was important to do so and in fact advised him against it. Much better to leave the population at large in happy ignorance. Then Leliana, the future Divine in this run, encouraged him to let Celene be assassinated so he could put an elf on the throne. After his experiences in DAI with the Chantry believers and in Trespasser concerning his own gods, he was struggling to believe in anything in terms of deities but still held to Dalish beliefs about loyalty to community and family. He is willing to believe in the Maker as the creator of the world but that was never the problem, it was the Chantry that was always the sticking point. So the Maker created the world, the Evanuris developed the elven civilisation, became corrupt and suffered the consequences. That he can believe in.
I had a lot of fun with playing an agonistic Dalish who told everyone they believed in the Maker just because he thought it would make them happy. This allowed me to be given the believer dialogue options, which were wonderfully ironic if in your own head you are nothing of the sort. The only thing I did regret, though, was taking the Chantry garden option with this character. Every time I went to the War Room I had to put up with that annoying cleric reciting the Chant. Never again. Loved the bit at the end when I could respond to Corypheus with the line "I'm the Maker's chosen", particularly as in my own mind this was said with sarcasm. The revelations concerning the elven gods didn't impact on him because he'd always had his doubts about them anyway (his subversive tendencies was part of the reason the Keeper sent him on the mission). Since the Maker evidently is not someone you have to worry about too much since he is said not to take action anyway and the behaviour of Andrastrians in power would suggest they are not particularly worried about the next life either, he was largely unperturbed by events and fully confirmed in his agnostic beliefs by the end.
I tried playing a thoroughly devout Andrastrian human but I've not yet completed his run because I don't like him very much. I find it hard to role play such a character convincingly when there are so many glaring contradictions in the Chantry beliefs and the conduct of those said to be faithful adherents in game.
|
|
inherit
∯ Alien Wizard
729
0
Sept 14, 2023 6:08:41 GMT
9,897
Ieldra
4,771
August 2016
ieldra
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
25190
6519
|
Post by Ieldra on Aug 22, 2016 8:13:08 GMT
I tried playing a thoroughly devout Andrastrian human but I've not yet completed his run because I don't like him very much. I find it hard to role play such a character convincingly when there are so many glaring contradictions in the Chantry beliefs and the conduct of those said to be faithful adherents in game. I can't play thoroughly devout. Doesn't matter about which gods it is, they're all bastards, and where my characters aren't not non-religious to start with, they tend to become so in the course of the story. My main main character Maelyn Trevelyan is mostly a nay-theist - you can't really deny the existence of the elven pantheon, or at least suspect that there's something behind the dwarves and their Stone after all she's seen. They may even be gods by some meaningful definition, but there's no way she'll ever worship, nor even follow, any one of them. Only the Maker holds a special place in that - as a collective delusion whose existence she doesn't acknowledge.
|
|
inherit
376
0
Oct 17, 2016 19:19:36 GMT
3,474
opuspace
2,129
August 2016
opuspace
|
Post by opuspace on Aug 22, 2016 23:18:21 GMT
I think I'd like to know what it is that devout believers believe in exactly. Do they simply believe that their god or gods exist, do they believe that their deities actually intervene on their behalf in mysterious ways, do they believe in literally all the stories or just the principles it extols? Believing that the Maker is involved in people's lives when the stories say he explicitly abandoned everyone is baffling, while the Dalish gods have not been able to stop the decline of their culture. I think I'm taking that too literally. Maybe someone who is more spiritual can explain this better.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,664
gervaise21
10,783
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Aug 23, 2016 9:34:16 GMT
This is something that has puzzled me and why I find it so difficult to play a devout character, particularly Chantry loyalist. It was easier back in DAO because there seemed a consistency of belief, even if it did seem somewhat illogical to follow a god who the faith claims has abandoned you, bearing in mind that apparently he abandoned his prophet to her fate as well just when it seemed she was on the threshold of achieving the aim of freeing all the slaves. Also he inflicted the Blights on mankind in response to the transgressions of just one select group of Magisters and then is content to just watch people suffer without doing anything to help. Still the whole thrust of Chantry teaching at that time was that once the Chant is sung throughout the world, then the Maker will return. This was their whole justification for repeated Exalted Marches against those who did not accept the Chant or had the wrong version of it (by their reckoning). You didn't expect the Maker to intervene because the Chantry taught that he wouldn't but was simply watching events. In Redcliffe the Chantry cleric was consistent with these beliefs when she didn't want to give soldiers false hope by saying the amulets would ensure the Maker protected them. Andraste's ashes didn't contradict this belief either, since they were the actual ashes of the prophet and therefore granted the same miraculous powers as the Chantry claimed the Maker gave her in life. Even back then I could see serious contradictions in the faith but at least the people in game meant to be promoting it were consistent with that faith.
Then in DA2 a curious thing seemed to occur. People not only prayed to the Maker, begging him to return. They also seemed to offer prayers thinking he would intervene in the world and answer them. I couldn't see why the Chantry would be promoting this. All that mattered according to their faith was to recite the Chant. Then at the end Sebastian was questioning why the Maker allowed Elthina to die. It seemed simply enough to me, if the Maker had failed to intervene in four subsequent Blights after Andraste's death and numerous other major events, why would he bother with one Grand Cleric? The Maker does not get involved in the present world. Those who follow the Chant and are loyal to the Maker are rewarded by passing through the Fade to his side on death. Those who are evil sinners are doomed to wander the Fade/Void for eternity. Now the Chantry does have a moral code but the odd thing is how those in power seem to totally disregard it. Nowhere in any of the histories of Thedas do we have examples of holy men and women pointing out the faults of those who abuse their position, of Divine's condemning the Game. None of those in power seem to fear the consequences of their actions in the afterlife. All anyone ever does is focus on mages and magic as though that is the only thing the Maker is bothered about. Apparently if you are a mage, devout Templars think that gives them the right to abuse you. The nobility of Orlais think they hold their positions by Divine Right and that gives them the right to treat commoners as they please. To my mind none of this is condoned by the Chant and the behaviour of nobles in Orlais, the home of the Chantry, seem particularly to be in contradiction of the Chant. Surely for the Maker to return, you need to live the Chant, not just recite it, or why did he bother with putting in a moral code to follow?
Then in DAI I am at a loss to know what anyone believes. Bearing in mind my previous comments, I think it simply is a case of saying I believe in the Maker. Beyond that you can interpret the faith however you see fit. Divines can not only take out and insert texts into the Chant at whim but can also change the professed faith concerning mages, elves, dwarves, marriage of clergy, etc, and no one considers it odd. Well some people do object but they are easily dealt with. If people want to believe the Herald was sent by the Maker/Andraste even though you know they weren't, that is okay because it is all a matter of personal faith and who is to say the Maker didn't influence events in some way? Every time something seems to contradict what we had previously been told was a dogma of faith, that is okay so long as you continue to believe in the Maker. You can murder, steal and lie with impunity. Just keep singing the Chant and everything will be just fine. Plus apparently, according to Cassandra a devout Seeker and potential future Divine, there is nothing with believing in other gods, so long as you also believe in the Maker. I'm pretty sure that isn't what the Chantry has been maintaining all these years. In fact it is the first commandment of the Maker "There is but one god and he our Maker. They are sinners, who have given their love to false gods." You'd think all the devout Andrastrians' heads would be in a spin trying to reconcile a non-human, non Maker worshipping Herald with their beliefs but apparently it is easily overcome with "faith".
As for the elves, as Sebastian once pointed out to Merrill, their belief system isn't so very different from that of Andrastrians. They teach that their gods were shut away by one of their own, so they know they can't answer their prayers, but they still keep on praying just in case. They are trying to recover their culture and remember what it is to be "true" elves because apparently their gods will then return to them, which seems contradicted by the previous belief that says they are unable to do so. The Keepers teach that those who persisted on the Long Walk to the Dales were rewarded for their persistence by the gods in arriving safely, which again is contradicted by the teaching that the gods cannot help them because they are locked away. So in these respects it is just as illogical a religion as the humans have. However, there is one aspect where it is different. They believe that their gods taught them certain things such as loyalty in the family, helping others in the community, respecting the creatures that they hunt, etc, and the Dalish do believe it is important to keep to these traditions. They also have certain prohibitions against blood magic and following gods like the Forbidden Ones. In other words they have a moral code that they do actually follow and people who transgress are asked to leave the community. From that point of view, I find it easier to be an elven believer because there is at least some consistency of belief and a code of values which the community seem to follow. Outsiders might not agree with their outlook but it is part of their culture. Their stubborn adherence to their gods who cannot help is part of those traditions that people have constantly tried to take away from them, so again I can appreciate their clinging to those beliefs, particularly when to me there is no better alternative. Unlike the Maker who simply won't help, at least they believe their gods would help if they could, so you never know, may be one day they will manage to free themselves. It also makes sense making offerings to Fen'Harel to appease him. After all he managed to trick all their gods, so he isn't someone you want to mess with and they believe he is still active in the Fade.
The only belief system which makes sense to me of those that believe in deities is that of the Avaar. They are fully aware that their "gods" are simply spirits that they ask for assistance and actually receive it. There does seem to be a culture and belief system that people follow and a code of conduct that they keep to. There is a tangible reason to have faith in a god and pray to them. Mind you it hasn't had the same exposure as the other faith systems, so give it time and likely it will seem as illogical as all the rest.
|
|
Stick in the Mud
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire
Posts: 180 Likes: 654
inherit
305
0
654
Stick in the Mud
180
August 2016
vhenansequitur
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire
|
Post by Stick in the Mud on Aug 23, 2016 21:57:16 GMT
Hmmm...I've never played a religious character in a Dragon Age game. That being said, I feel that the Inquisitor could believe in both the traditional faith of their people and the religion of the Chantry. Any Inquisitor who claims to be the Herald of Andraste is, as far as I'm concerned, admitting faith in the Maker and Andraste. If one does that while still taking those Creators and Stone lines, then I'd say you're coming as close to pulling an Ameridan as DAI will allow. The game does let players equally "disbelieve" all religions, which suits me just fine. After Here Lies the Abyss, The Descent, and Trespasser I don't know how anyone's characters can still have faith in the religions of Thedas. I Don't believe in Gods.--> The only belief system which makes sense to me of those that believe in deities is that of the Avaar. They are fully aware that their "gods" are simply spirits that they ask for assistance and actually receive it. There does seem to be a culture and belief system that people follow and a code of conduct that they keep to. There is a tangible reason to have faith in a god and pray to them. Mind you it hasn't had the same exposure as the other faith systems, so give it time and likely it will seem as illogical as all the rest. Agreed. Thus far, the Avaar seem like the most rational ethnic group in Thedas.
|
|
inherit
∯ Alien Wizard
729
0
Sept 14, 2023 6:08:41 GMT
9,897
Ieldra
4,771
August 2016
ieldra
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
25190
6519
|
Post by Ieldra on Aug 24, 2016 8:59:54 GMT
This is something that has puzzled me and why I find it so difficult to play a devout character, particularly Chantry loyalist. [...] Every time something seems to contradict what we had previously been told was a dogma of faith, that is okay so long as you continue to believe in the Maker. You can murder, steal and lie with impunity. Just keep singing the Chant and everything will be just fine. Plus apparently, according to Cassandra a devout Seeker and potential future Divine, there is nothing with believing in other gods, so long as you also believe in the Maker. I'm pretty sure that isn't what the Chantry has been maintaining all these years. In fact it is the first commandment of the Maker "There is but one god and he our Maker. They are sinners, who have given their love to false gods." You'd think all the devout Andrastrians' heads would be in a spin trying to reconcile a non-human, non Maker worshipping Herald with their beliefs but apparently it is easily overcome with "faith". Bioware's modus operandi evers since ME3: butcher the lore to send a thematic message. I'm afraid we'll see more of that with Patrick Weekes at the helm (yes, I respect him as a writer of non-interactive stories, but I'm afraid we'll see more social commentary blatantly intruding into our fictional worlds, regardless of being out of place). Having siad that, real-world religions aren't any better in things like this. For instance, Christians say their god is one of love, yet in most stories he's a veritable jerkass, an overjealous hardass authoritarian who destroys cities for daring to worship someone else, demands zombie-like obedience from his followers and enjoins his followers to genocide. How anyone has ever come to worship this entity escapes me. So, maybe the DA team can be excused for making their fictional religions as consistent as real-world ones. The Avvar belief system isn't so much a belief system as a system of interaction which is susceptible to reality checks. It would crumble under the kind of inconsistency expressed by religions, because spirits are existing entities with personalities and a will of their own. If I may quote myself: religion is a social phenomenon that doesn't depend on the gods being such entities. In fact, it may depend on the gods not being such entities.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,664
gervaise21
10,783
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Aug 24, 2016 10:32:35 GMT
What do you have to do to get that "I don't believe in gods" dialogue prompt? Do you have to say at the beginning that you don't believe in the elf gods or the Maker and then keep asserting that?
I've got the "I'm the Maker's chosen" dialogue prompt, on my only "believer" run, though in reality he was agnostic and only saying those things to keep people happy (he was a real cynic about religion really) but I've never had the opposite option of denying belief altogether.
Small request, please do not criticise real religions here or eventually I will feel compelled to respond and that is not the purpose of these forums. It is because of the way people ignore the true teaching of their god in real life and twist the teachings to suit their own agenda, that I feel similarly annoyed with the fictional faithful in Thedas. That I feel I am at liberty to criticise and debate to my heart's content.
What I will say is that among the ancient religions in the real world, they broadly fall into two groups: the first is where you make offerings to a particular god in the hope of getting something in return and nothing further is required; the second is where there is a code of conduct, either in behaviour or with respect to worship (such as not worshipping rival gods) that the believers need to adhere to in order to receive the gods favour. There may also be some benefits in the after life if that particular system believes in such. Others have a circle of rebirth, which the particularly devout can escape from.
The odd thing about Andrastrianism is that there are no perceived benefits at all to be derived from worship of the Maker in the present. Everything is about some perceived benefit in the future. The Maker will only act if ....... and that is only with respect to the end of the world. The devout on death will go to the peace of the Maker's side, the sinners will be doomed to wander forever. You would think this would make people even more careful about their conduct.
Drakon's action on establishing his Chantry was to eradicate all forms of worship that did not conform to his own. The justification for this is to be found in the 1st rule of the Maker. Now I don't condone this and I question whether this is really what Andraste taught but I can see how convenient it was for him that this was an essential part of the dogma of the Chantry. This seems to have been the consistent line throughout the series until DAI. Then Cassandra can say to an elven Herald who states belief in their own gods "is there not room for one more?". This is totally out of keeping with Chantry dogma for the last 800 years. Then in Jaws of Hakkon we understand that Drakon asked his old friend Ameridan to lead the Inquistion, even though the latter is a mage who believed in both Andraste and the elven gods. That is not consistent with how Drakon has been portrayed elsewhere or what is contained in the Chant that his own tame cleric wrote. Ameridan seems well aware that Drakon wants "to keep things simple". This suggests that Ameridan knows that it is in order to believe in gods other than the Maker, provided he is given pre-eminence and Drakon is actually moving away from what was commonly believed about their faith at that time. So if Drakon was actually going against what Andraste really taught, wouldn't that offend the Maker?
So then I look at the rest of the 5 codes of conduct in the Chant. Leaving aside the one about magic that has always been open to interpretation, the other three are that you should not murder, you should not lie and you should not steal. The Game exists in direct contradiction to the first. Leliana (a future divine) not only encourages you to stand aside and let Celene be murdered but also (if you take the assassin spec) encourages you to authorise the murder of someone's husband just so the woman can have both her title/wealth and the man she loves. If hardened she also forces through changes to the dogma of the Chantry with murder. You are constantly encouraged to lie about your role as Herald, which is not only in contradiction to the second but effectively imperils your soul. So that only really leave theft as something that is enforced and of course it is only the poor of Thedas, who steal out of desperation, who really suffer. So where is the condemnation down the years of those people in power who totally ignore the codes of the Maker? By failing to follow the teaching of Andraste on these matters, are they not once again in danger of offending the Maker and delaying his return? Are not those people who fail to follow the codes fearful of the afterlife?
This is what I mean about Andrastrianism actually being a very shallow representation of faith. None of those things that you would think should impact on people's conduct and belief seem to do so.
|
|
inherit
∯ Alien Wizard
729
0
Sept 14, 2023 6:08:41 GMT
9,897
Ieldra
4,771
August 2016
ieldra
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
25190
6519
|
Post by Ieldra on Aug 25, 2016 12:38:33 GMT
What do you have to do to get that "I don't believe in gods" dialogue prompt? Do you have to say at the beginning that you don't believe in the elf gods or the Maker and then keep asserting that? That, and you must to select "All this happened because of fanatics and arguments about the next world. It's time we start believing in this one" in the conversation on the way to Skyhold. At least I didn't get it the one time I used a different option. Not if you think that wandering forever isn't such a bad fate and sitting at the Maker's side not all that desirable. I think that opinion is not at all implausible. To me, with the Maker being a father figure, sitting at his side comes across as "staying a child forever" and wandering forever appears rather attractive - always finding new things, seeing the world(s) etc... I would choose such a fate before the other. Of course, I think there is no such thing as a true "forever". I have to ask: does it matter? The Maker doesn't act. Nobody really knows what Andraste taught, and nobody *can* know what the Maker wants, should he exist at all. Where nobody speaks with clarity, what is left to you but interpret things? It's no better or worse than to slavishly follow what others say Andraste taught, which they, too, couldn't know. On the storytelling level, though, I agree with you: characters shouldn't be written to be so cavalier about this, because plausibly most of them wouldn't be if they were believers. They'd struggle with the question and maybe come up with a reason to be more tolerant than scripture appears to say, but it would be a fight. At least that's what I get from most believers I know. I may be mistaken though, since the religious mindset remains alien to me. In the end, in comes down to this: whoever wrote this wanted to send a message of tolerance regardless of how that fit into the existing picture. I don't think this is a real problem since as I said, religions can be very inconsistent over time, but I find the attitude troubling.
|
|
jtav
N2
Posts: 58 Likes: 94
inherit
762
0
Nov 23, 2020 20:45:33 GMT
94
jtav
58
August 2016
jtav
|
Post by jtav on Aug 25, 2016 13:14:01 GMT
In some ways, I don't think the DA team really gets religion. It's not just about being a good person--atheists can be good people. Doctrines matter, have justifications beyond "that's the way we've always done it" and are nooot infinitely malleable, though there's often a lot more flexibility than conservative believers claim. Divine Leliana is the equivalent of the Catholic Church ordaining women, allowing priests to marry, overturning the contraception ban and adding the Gospel of Thomas to the canon. It just wouldn't happen. She should have been a Luther instead.
|
|
inherit
∯ Alien Wizard
729
0
Sept 14, 2023 6:08:41 GMT
9,897
Ieldra
4,771
August 2016
ieldra
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
25190
6519
|
Post by Ieldra on Aug 25, 2016 13:42:22 GMT
In some ways, I don't think the DA team really gets religion. It's not just about being a good person--atheists can be good people. Doctrines matter, have justifications beyond "that's the way we've always done it" and are nooot infinitely malleable, though there's often a lot more flexibility than conservative believers claim. Divine Leliana is the equivalent of the Catholic Church ordaining women, allowing priests to marry, overturning the contraception ban and adding the Gospel of Thomas to the canon. It just wouldn't happen. She should have been a Luther instead. I didn't get the impression that the DA team was predominantly non-religious. So, assuming they aren't, how would you explain the presentation then?
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,664
gervaise21
10,783
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Aug 25, 2016 13:50:40 GMT
That's what I mean really. For the Chantry faith to have any sort of credibility, at the end of DAI Andrastrianism should have split between the old orthodox Chantry and the new reformed Chantry linked to the Inquisition, particularly if Leliana is in charge and the Inquisition is still promoting a non-human, non Andrastrian Herald, with free mages and no Templars. I'm not saying that is a bad thing. I've felt that the Chantry doesn't truly represent the teaching of Andraste for a long time now and as for the history of Andraste, well the one in the Chant is pretty much a complete fabrication. However, you would need more people actually challenging orthodoxy in game and outside of the Inquisition for it to be believable that they would vote someone like Leliana in as Divine.
This is what happened when Justinia was too overt in challenging the old teaching concerning mages. Lambert, who had become an hardened orthodox in his beliefs thanks to his experiences with the Black Divine in Tevinter, essentially branded her a heretic and led the Seeker/Templar order to break away. That was consistent with what we had been told about the Templars, where so far back as DAO it was said that they were appointed more for their religious zeal than their moral integrity.
Now Cassandra is just enough of an orthodox believer (notwithstanding the comments to an elven Herald) that I can see her being voted in as Divine. There is a precedent in the 1st ever Divine in having someone who is both a soldier and spiritual leader in the role, since Justinia 1 was a soldier in Drakon's army before she became Divine. People might be cautious because of her associations with the Inquisition, particularly with a non-human Herald but she would just about be able to get away with it.
The other two candidates just do not seem credible to me. Vivienne might be an accomplished player of the game but she is a mage. To vote her in as Divine, however loyal to the Chantry, just overturns everything the southern Chantry has taught since its inception. It just shouldn't happen.
As for Leliana, well the clerics back in Lothering had her pegged as a heretic and nothing really has changed. Lambert, or someone, would have spread the word she was seen assisting the rebel mages. She is known to have been the left hand of the Divine and thus a bit dodgy. People would probably remember her as a bard. Still, even if by some strange quirk of fate they voted her in, once she started her wholesale reforms, the Chantry would just not be able to retain credibility. How is she going to be able to explain having done things differently for the previous 800 years? Did the Chantry get it wrong? In which case, how do people know they didn't get it wrong voting her in or she isn't wrong in making the changes?
Which is where I come back to the fact that dogma and tradition seem to count for nothing in the Thedas world, which seems odd considering the medieval world it is set in. Josephine claims that the Chantry is a unifying force in Thedas but that would only be true if there was some unity in what people believe in. To my mind, at the end of Inquisition the Chantry is finished as a unifying force, if it ever was one to begin with.
|
|