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Post by jtav on Aug 25, 2016 20:23:48 GMT
In some ways, I don't think the DA team really gets religion. It's not just about being a good person--atheists can be good people. Doctrines matter, have justifications beyond "that's the way we've always done it" and are nooot infinitely malleable, though there's often a lot more flexibility than conservative believers claim. Divine Leliana is the equivalent of the Catholic Church ordaining women, allowing priests to marry, overturning the contraception ban and adding the Gospel of Thomas to the canon. It just wouldn't happen. She should have been a Luther instead. I didn't get the impression that the DA team was predominantly non-religious. So, assuming they aren't, how would you explain the presentation then? A few things: *A desire not to get bogged down in theology *wanting Thedas to reflect modern mores *wanting Cass and Leliana to be likeable *the usual BW time compression
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vit246
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR
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Post by vit246 on Aug 26, 2016 5:18:15 GMT
I reject Ameridan's syncreticism.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 26, 2016 11:58:54 GMT
Ameridan is not the only example of this. In World of Thedas 1 in the entry on Ferelden it says how the signs of the old animist deities are still commonplace in the country. Apparently a lot of the stories about these gods have been repurposed as cautionary bedtime stories for children and the buildings and statues have been similarly converted. However, it then says that "the Chantry does not demand their removal or promote hatred against the old deities. The Maker simply stands above them all."
This seems extremely odd in view of the first commandment in the Chant: "They are sinners, who have given their love to false gods." Drakon is also said to have gone throughout southern Thedas stamping out worship of the Old Gods as well as lingering Alamarri and Ciriane deities. Obviously with his attention directed to the 2nd Blight, the locals of Ferelden might well have resumed their worship. Still, it does seem odd that the very tribes that the Chantry claim wholeheartedly supported Andraste and embraced her belief in the Maker, should still retain their old deities as well. Then you do have Shartan as well. Was he a genuine disciple believing only in the Maker? The shade in the Temple of Sacred Ashes didn't seem to suggest as much: "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". I'd think that Shartan, even if he was willing to acknowledge the Maker as the Creator of all things, probably still promoted his own people's religion as well. This would seem borne out by Ameridan.
Ameridan's syncretism might well be in keeping with the faith that Andraste actually taught. Most of what is in the Chant is based on what Drakon and Justinia 1 thought the correct representation of the faith. World of Thedas 2 makes the point that there were numerous different cults to Andraste after her death (as reflected in some of the codices in game) which seemed to co-exist quiet peacefully with one another, the Inquisition only attacking those that it deemed dangerous. It was Drakon who decided he wanted to "simplify" things. Those are Ameridan's own words. That suggests that it is not Ameridan who was out of line with Andraste's teaching but Drakon who subverted it.
So, of course, Leliana with her reforms might actually be closer to what true Andrastrianism should be. However, it would help if there could be some confirmation of that in game rather than simply in our own speculations about it. It also seems to me that this would need to be demonstrated to the people in such a way that they realise the Chantry never really represented Andraste, rather than the Chantry simply altering its doctrine to accommodate this totally different outlook to what they have been preaching since its inception.
May be this is going to happen in the next game. I'm not saying that the Imperial Chantry is any better than the Orlesian one in representing Andraste but it is possible that we will find evidence in the Tevinter archives of what the true teachings of Andraste might be. All the evidence that the lore books put forward that dispute the Chantry line seems to be based off Tevinter records that scholars have studied. These apparently show which bits of the New Cumberland Chant are likely nearest to the authentic voice of Andraste and her followers.
To give an example, the Canticle of Apotheosis, concerning Andraste's betrayal and death, the version in the Chant dates to -100 and is the one selected and edited by Justinia 1 to fit Drakon's ideas about the history of Andraste. It has Andraste getting all the way to Minrathous, laying siege to the city and then being betrayed in the nearby hills. It then has her being burned on the field in front of both sets of armies, just in front of the Juggernaut golems. The Valarian Fields are shown on modern maps as being very close to Minrathous, so effectively the army defeated was the full might of Tevinter. However, even Genitivi's history of the Chantry has the battle taking place in southern Tevinter, and the army never coming anywhere near the heart of the Imperium. They defeated the strongest army that southern Tevinter could muster, already deprived of much support from the capital. It also has her execution taking place in the central square of Minrathous. Then in World of Thedas 2 and DAI, we learn that Andrastre was actually captured from her stronghold in Nevarra. This is many hundreds of miles south of Minrathous. This is in keeping with a battle fought in southern Tevinter and then Maferath having doubts about continuing the crusade further north, risking losing the gains they had made. It is not in keeping with someone who has won a great victory in front of Minrathous and has now laid siege to the city. Clearly there is a great difference between the actual historical record and what is written in the Chant. Orlesian scholars are even aware of this.
So I wonder what other parts of the Chant, in particular the teaching of Andraste, were actually altered when Justinia 1 wrote them down, in order that they would conform to what Drakon wanted promoted rather than what were really her words. Apparently there are several Canticles that can be found in the Imperial Chantry that are omitted from the southern one. Were these added after the split or do they actually reflect an older tradition, dating back to Hessarian himself (which might still not be genuinely Andraste's words)? We already know about the Canticle of Silence, which was written by Hessarian. We also know that Tevinter claim that Andraste was a mage. What else might there be?
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Post by cloud9 on Sept 6, 2016 10:04:13 GMT
"And thus I clothed my naked villainy with old odd ends stolen forth from holy writ and seemed the saint where most I play the Devil."
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