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Post by Iddy on Feb 17, 2017 13:27:53 GMT
I'd like to have Loghain do it so that the HoF will have a normal baby with Morrigan and live with her. But... I can't find a way to justify the decision in game.
People usually say "My Warden granted him the chance to atone", but here is the thing: Sten also wanted to atone by accepting death in Lothering. And yet, you convinced him to redeem himself by living on and doing good deeds. Why not do the same for Loghain? Because the Warden is too afraid of dying? Too weak willed to face a grey warden's burden? I just wish I could make this choice and feel good about it afterwards.
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Post by mike3207 on Feb 17, 2017 16:31:36 GMT
There's a lot of time to atone. You can let Loghain do it in Origins or in Inquisition.
As for cowardly, there's nothing wrong with looking into other options other than self-sacrifice.
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Post by mousestalker on Feb 17, 2017 16:34:34 GMT
If you are a female warden in a romance with Alistair and you refuse Morrigan, you may not get a choice. Just FYI.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2017 17:45:04 GMT
How about this...the Warden feels that Loghain deserves death for his crimes, yet understands the need for more Grey Wardens. So he puts aside his own sense of justice and recruits Loghain. Your Warden is fully prepared to make the sacrifice himself and sees it as his juty, but then Loghain asks to do the deed himself. As a warrior who understands Loghain's sense of honour, guilt, his wish for atonement and the incredible service he previously gave Ferelden your guy puts aside his own wish to 'do the right thing' and lets Loghain have that instead. As a nod to his courage, he steps aside and lets the veteren of the Orlais war have one last moment of glory, and the most glorious apology he could possibly give his people. That lets Anora grieve with dignity and celebrate her father's atonement and legacy, whilst your warden walks away and is rather happy he's avoided some of the spotlight. He'll keep on protecting the people and will make his sacrifice when the Maker calls him to do it.
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Post by Iddy on Feb 17, 2017 19:19:19 GMT
How about this...the Warden feels that Loghain deserves death for his crimes, yet understands the need for more Grey Wardens. So he puts aside his own sense of justice and recruits Loghain. Your Warden is fully prepared to make the sacrifice himself and sees it as his juty, but then Loghain asks to do the deed himself. As a warrior who understands Loghain's sense of honour, guilt, his wish for atonement and the incredible service he previously gave Ferelden your guy puts aside his own wish to 'do the right thing' and lets Loghain have that instead. As a nod to his courage, he steps aside and lets the veteren of the Orlais war have one last moment of glory, and the most glorious apology he could possibly give his people. That lets Anora grieve with dignity and celebrate her father's atonement and legacy, whilst your warden walks away and is rather happy he's avoided some of the spotlight. He'll keep on protecting the people and will make his sacrifice when the Maker calls him to do it. The codices and future references to the HoF are surprisingly generous in the glory aspect. A Warden who survives by letting another deal the final blow is given just as much praise as one that did the DR.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 17, 2017 19:59:51 GMT
How about this...the Warden feels that Loghain deserves death for his crimes, yet understands the need for more Grey Wardens. So he puts aside his own sense of justice and recruits Loghain. Your Warden is fully prepared to make the sacrifice himself and sees it as his juty, but then Loghain asks to do the deed himself. As a warrior who understands Loghain's sense of honour, guilt, his wish for atonement and the incredible service he previously gave Ferelden your guy puts aside his own wish to 'do the right thing' and lets Loghain have that instead. As a nod to his courage, he steps aside and lets the veteren of the Orlais war have one last moment of glory, and the most glorious apology he could possibly give his people. That lets Anora grieve with dignity and celebrate her father's atonement and legacy, whilst your warden walks away and is rather happy he's avoided some of the spotlight. He'll keep on protecting the people and will make his sacrifice when the Maker calls him to do it. The codices and future references to the HoF are surprisingly generous in the glory aspect. A Warden who survives by letting another deal the final blow is given just as much praise as one that did the DR. Because the people don't know about the Dark Ritual? (Even Loghain asked my Warden how he survived...) So: in the people's eyes the warden earned the glory, because the Blight ended. Why so hard to believe this?
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Post by Iddy on Feb 17, 2017 21:28:18 GMT
The codices and future references to the HoF are surprisingly generous in the glory aspect. A Warden who survives by letting another deal the final blow is given just as much praise as one that did the DR. Because the people don't know about the Dark Ritual? (Even Loghain asked my Warden how he survived...) So: the people's eyes the warden earned the glory, because the Blight ended. Why so hard to believe this? I'm not criticising. I'm just surprised. After all, not being the actual archdemon slayer technically should remove a few badassery points.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 17, 2017 21:34:29 GMT
Because the people don't know about the Dark Ritual? (Even Loghain asked my Warden how he survived...) So: the people's eyes the warden earned the glory, because the Blight ended. Why so hard to believe this? I'm not criticising. I'm just surprised. After all, not being the actual archdemon slayer technically should remove a few badassery points. And I surprised, why you are surprised. The Warden actually killed the Archdemon. No one know, what would be the real cost to kill the Archdemon and eliminate the danger of Blight. So: of course the people and the historians revere him as a hero, either survived or not.
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Post by Iddy on Feb 17, 2017 22:48:43 GMT
I'm not criticising. I'm just surprised. After all, not being the actual archdemon slayer technically should remove a few badassery points. And I surprised, why you are surprised. The Warden actually killed the Archdemon. No one know, what would be the real cost to kill the Archdemon and eliminate the danger of Blight. So: of course the people and the historians revere him as a hero, either survived or not. Oh, my deepest apologies. It was never my intention to hurt you with my being surprised.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 17, 2017 22:56:01 GMT
And I surprised, why you are surprised. The Warden actually killed the Archdemon. No one know, what would be the real cost to kill the Archdemon and eliminate the danger of Blight. So: of course the people and the historians revere him as a hero, either survived or not. Oh, my deepest apologies. It was never my intention to hurt you with my being surprised. And I sincerely hope, you're no longer surprised.
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Post by Iddy on Feb 17, 2017 23:02:39 GMT
Oh, my deepest apologies. It was never my intention to hurt you with my being surprised. And I sincerely hope, you're no longer surprised. I hardly would call it a decent day without at least 5 surprises. Have you recovered, though? You seemed terribly distressed.
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Post by Kei on Feb 20, 2017 23:14:55 GMT
Because the people don't know about the Dark Ritual? (Even Loghain asked my Warden how he survived...) So: the people's eyes the warden earned the glory, because the Blight ended. Why so hard to believe this? I'm not criticising. I'm just surprised. After all, not being the actual archdemon slayer technically should remove a few badassery points. Nonsense. The Warden is the main reason the Archdemon is dead and everyone is kissing their feet while completely ignoring Loghain(Oh big deal a-side from the senior GW nobody know anything about the AD soul-jump ability). I guess Morrigan's prediction was ultra extremely wrong when she played on their pride, saying that "Warden will just be one unknown warden who helped mighty Loghain defeat blight". why the heck would I pull US or DR just for honor of stabbing that critter in the head?
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Post by Prince on Feb 20, 2017 23:25:48 GMT
Loghain is basically completely disgraced in the eyes of the whole country after the Landsmeet.
Loghain neither doesn't help, nor he helps.All he does is get redemption. The HoF is still the Warden.
Not sure from where this glory thief paranoia comes from. There isn't any evidence of that in any DA game.
Maybe the Morrigan attempt to pull your strings before the Ritual?But those are all lies and\or nonsense.
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Post by oyabun on Feb 21, 2017 0:00:43 GMT
I didn't quite understood the OP contention;is it about the cowardice of using others to kill the AD or is it about the "supposed" loss of glory that should happen (in his mind) as a result of doing that?
Well in the first case I would like to say that as a player who did the US I've never felt the "courage" of the act,mostly because it wasn't me there,it was a non-existent virtual avatar "killing" a non-existent monster....so what a great form of bravery it was on my part doing the US.....in the worm of my house.....
As for the second contention,well until now nobody know who killed the greatest Old God Dumat or Toth and nobody care about Corin either......because nobody know about the soul jump ability of the AD....so it shouldn't be a surprise that the people will not care at all about something they don't even know,and even if they knew I'm sure they wouldn't care the same,that's simply what most people do,that's how life work in indifference.Someone may be remembered for some time but then everything will just be a matter of history before to meet the final oblivion.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Feb 21, 2017 0:44:51 GMT
Almost all the witches in fantasy that I've had the disgrace to meet(Drakensang,Divinity,Dragon Age,plenty of animes and movies)was like that.They always tried to persuade and convince others that doing their biddings was the best thing to do and not doing it was stupid or had terribile consequences...well guess what I've never believed them and look how far I was able to go.
Whenever arguments about who is the most "glorius" or the most "great" arise I always remember myself dear old John.
""I do not accept glory from human beings"
In this Universe which is so big compared to us little insects nobody will ever be able to be truly great.
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Post by Lazarillo on Feb 21, 2017 1:06:39 GMT
Sten also wanted to atone by accepting death in Lothering. And yet, you convinced him to redeem himself by living on and doing good deeds. Why not do the same for Loghain? Sten didn't want to atone by dying, he accepted that it would be his atonement. If you actually ask him about it, though, he admits he'd rather die fighting. Similarly, it wasn't simply dying that Loghain saw as atonement, it was dying to stop the Blight. Sten had thrown his armor and arms aside and was simply waiting to be eaten because he thought it was the only option left to him. If Loghain had done the same thing upon entering the gates of Denerim, that would be one thing, but the two contexts are completely different. Now, granted, could Loghain hypothetically atone by continuing to live past the Battle of Denerim? Possibly, sure (although from what we learn in later games, he doesn't, at least, not to the same degree). However, in the end, it remains that the act of destroying the Archdemon serves for his atonement, not simply falling in battle. As to whether it's cowardly or not, I think that depends on the Warden in question. Certainly, the idea of simply using him as a pawn to be sacrificed is one that the dialogue makes perfectly clear. It's not the only option, however.
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Post by Aren on Feb 21, 2017 14:37:57 GMT
I would like to respond to the premises I've read so far in this thread which were: 1)The US and the DR should be the only way to maximize the spotlight on the Warden on the basis that he/she infer the final blow at the Archdemon. 2)If the DR is refused then it follow that is cowardice to sacrifice someone else instead of oneself.
I reasonably believe that both premises are fallacious if not outright wrong and I would like to point out the evidences to sustain my thesis.
#1 It is established within the games that the requirement to murder an AD are known by a handful of people,so if Alistair/Loghain die as a result of delivering the final blow to the AD they will be considered by the general public as soldiers who died in battle not as martyrs who gave up their life to destroy it.
Moreover we need to make the consideration that the Blight was dealt within the confines of Ferelden in a very short period of time. Ferelden is one of the most isolated countries in Thedas both geographically and politically which make it unlikely that the people of the other nations will ever care about it's historical figures(that include the HoF).To support this claim i will point out the fact that many people in Orlais didn't even believed there was a blight in Ferelden.I disagree with Arcadiagrey on this as well,there isn't any difference in terms of the "spotlight" due to the extreme secrecy of the GW,so ironically Morrigan's claims about the loss of glory were undermined because of the very secrecy that she hoped to take an advantage from.
#2 The rules established by the GW in regard to the sacrifice is that it should be performed by following a pattern of seniority.If Riordan fails then it is Alistair who should make the sacrifice according to their rules(assuming you have Alistair).In Loghain's case however we have a man that not only is biologically more old that the protagonist but who has had enough of his life at that point and wish to atone. So i don't see where is the cowardice?At best one could argue that a Warden who is performing the US(typically in order to save Alistair)is breaking the GW rules for their own personal reasons.
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Post by Domakir on Feb 21, 2017 14:43:21 GMT
No.
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Post by Iddy on Feb 21, 2017 16:05:04 GMT
I would like to respond to the premises I've read so far in this thread which were: 1)The US and the DR should be the only way to maximize the spotlight on the Warden on the basis that he/she infer the final blow at the Archdemon. 2)If the DR is refused then it follow that is cowardice to sacrifice someone else instead of oneself. I reasonably believe that both premises are fallacious if not outright wrong and I would like to point out the evidences to sustain my thesis. #1 It is established within the games that the requirement to murder an AD are known by a handful of people,so if Alistair/Loghain die as a result of delivering the final blow to the AD they will be considered by the general public as soldiers who died in battle not as martyrs who gave up their life to destroy it. Moreover we need to make the consideration that the Blight was dealt within the confines of Ferelden in a very short period of time. Ferelden is one of the most isolated countries in Thedas both geographically and politically which make it unlikely that the people of the other nations will ever care about it's historical figures(that include the HoF).To support this claim i will point out the fact that many people in Orlais didn't even believed there was a blight in Ferelden.I disagree with Arcadiagrey on this as well,there isn't any difference in terms of the "spotlight" due to the extreme secrecy of the GW,so ironically Morrigan's claims about the loss of glory were undermined because of the very secrecy that she hoped to take an advantage from. #2 The rules established by the GW in regard to the sacrifice is that it should be performed by following a pattern of seniority.If Riordan fails then it is Alistair who should make the sacrifice according to their rules(assuming you have Alistair).In Loghain's case however we have a man that not only is biologically more old that the protagonist but who has had enough of his life at that point and wish to atone. So i don't see where is the cowardice?At best one could argue that a Warden who is performing the US(typically in order to save Alistair)is breaking the GW rules for their own personal reasons. Actually, Empress Celene mentions the HoF in the Masked Empire. But far more impressive is that Tallis, a Qunari agent, has heard of him/her as well and mentions the Warden during party banter. As for Loghain... come on. You know very well that Riordan meant being a senior grey warden, not being old.
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Post by oyabun on Feb 22, 2017 20:27:11 GMT
Tallis is a spy,it is her job to try to know as much as possibile so it is not a surprise that she talk about the warden,as for Loghain even if he is more young as a GW that doesn't mean he will live longer because of it.The only reason as for why this rule exist is because of the calling. Loghain as a GW will probably hear it before than a more young person.
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Post by Harpie Lady on Apr 25, 2017 23:33:11 GMT
Alistair was the senior warden,so it was his duty under the rules of the Order to be the first sacrifice after Riordan, while Loghain was in debt with me for the Landsmeet so he returned the favor.The only ending that's cowardly is the Morrigan's ritual, since it gambled the safety of the world on her say-so.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 0:53:30 GMT
I never did the US with any of my Wardens.
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Post by Harpie Lady on Apr 26, 2017 1:42:27 GMT
I never did the US with any of my Wardens. I don't think anyone cares about that beside you.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 2:42:41 GMT
I never did the US with any of my Wardens. I don't think anyone cares about that beside you. Well you do care enough about my opinion to quote me on it. Thanks for giving me relevance.
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Post by Harpie Lady on Apr 26, 2017 10:27:20 GMT
I don't think anyone cares about that beside you. Well you do care enough about my opinion to quote me on it. Thanks for giving me relevance. No I don't care, but I had to quote you because you spammed this same message several times across different threads despite it being totally unrelated with the OP,so I was wondering when you would stop at flattering yourself all by yourself over nothing?
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