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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 10:30:38 GMT
Well you do care enough about my opinion to quote me on it. Thanks for giving me relevance. No I don't care, but I had to quote you because you spammed this same message several times across different threads despite it being totally unrelated with the OP,so I was wondering when you would stop at flattering yourself all by yourself over nothing? Why are you still quoting me than? If you didn't care you wouldn't be responding to me. Stop than.
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Post by oyabun on Apr 26, 2017 10:39:48 GMT
Well you do care enough about my opinion to quote me on it. Thanks for giving me relevance. No I don't care, but I had to quote you because you spammed this same message several times across different threads despite it being totally unrelated with the OP,so I was wondering when you would stop at flattering yourself all by yourself over nothing? I wonder if there is an ignore function like in the official ex forum.It's tiresome not being able to put a filter over the messages and being forced to see them in the Thread no matter how unrelated they are.
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Post by Hagoromo on Apr 26, 2017 16:47:05 GMT
I don't think so,there are several good motives to let Loghain destroy the AD ,and in fact I believe that's the best outcome for DAO. I opted for the US however,simply because I didn't cared about the Warden being erased.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2017 4:08:19 GMT
Alistair and Loghain seemed eager to meet their doom at that specific moment. I see it more as people who chose such options of simply acquiescing to their request. Besides, Alistair was the senior warden anyway.
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Post by Abraxas on May 8, 2017 8:56:30 GMT
I do not believe is cowardice. The context is different for Loghain that for Sten. A qunari cannot kill an archdemon sacrificing its life, while a Warden can. And, in Loghain's case, there are practical reasons for a younger Warden to allow an older one to do the sacrifice. Even if Loghain has the fortitude to get the 30 years a Warden has after the Joining, we don't know if his natural death will wait that longer. In Alistair case, as someone mentions, the Wardens go by a seniority pattern. Even if you're the unofficial leader of the party, Alistair is still your senior and in that matter, you have to comply. The codices and future references to the HoF are surprisingly generous in the glory aspect. A Warden who survives by letting another deal the final blow is given just as much praise as one that did the DR. Because s/he was the commander of the effort that ended a Blight in a year, and the fact that the Blight never left Ferelden's border, and the Warden didn't needed aid from other countries. Her/his armies were composed of: at best 2 dalish clans (one decimated by werewolves), or a handful of werewolves (decimated by the elves); a few surviving mages and templars of Kinloch Hold (that lost most of their numbers in Uldred's rebellion); the decimated forces of Orzammar (that also lost most of their numbers in a civil war, plus some dwarves in Eamon's state mention that not all Orzammar houses sent soldiers), and potentially a few Legionnaries of the Dead and a handful of golems; and the armies of Ferelden, that were also decimated by a civil war. IIRC, I guess the Blackstone Irregulars also helped, but again, was a crippled mercenary force, as you killed one of the leaders plus his followers in a quests. So, with a ragtag army and little resources, the Warden ended a Blight. Even Garahel, who was an accomplished general and genious tactician, and had a lot of advisors and the stuff, ended a Blight in 12 years, and that's the shortest Blight before the Fifth. And Garahel needed the armies of the Anderfels, the Free Marches, Antiva, a token force from Orlais, and a lot of mercenary companies bolstering the Grey Wardens (the whole Warden army, not only just two fellow Wardens). It is logical that even if another Warden made the Ultimate Sacrifice, the Warden ended up as the Hero of Ferelden.
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Post by Iddy on May 8, 2017 18:35:24 GMT
Come to think of it, just refusing the DR already is a big statement as far as courage goes. Your character is, at least, accepting the possibility of being the one who will do the sacrifice.
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Post by Hagoromo on May 8, 2017 21:49:10 GMT
I do not believe is cowardice. The context is different for Loghain that for Sten. A qunari cannot kill an archdemon sacrificing its life, while a Warden can. And, in Loghain's case, there are practical reasons for a younger Warden to allow an older one to do the sacrifice. Even if Loghain has the fortitude to get the 30 years a Warden has after the Joining, we don't know if his natural death will wait that longer. In Alistair case, as someone mentions, the Wardens go by a seniority pattern. Even if you're the unofficial leader of the party, Alistair is still your senior and in that matter, you have to comply. The codices and future references to the HoF are surprisingly generous in the glory aspect. A Warden who survives by letting another deal the final blow is given just as much praise as one that did the DR. Because s/he was the commander of the effort that ended a Blight in a year, and the fact that the Blight never left Ferelden's border, and the Warden didn't needed aid from other countries. Her/his armies were composed of: at best 2 dalish clans (one decimated by werewolves), or a handful of werewolves (decimated by the elves); a few surviving mages and templars of Kinloch Hold (that lost most of their numbers in Uldred's rebellion); the decimated forces of Orzammar (that also lost most of their numbers in a civil war, plus some dwarves in Eamon's state mention that not all Orzammar houses sent soldiers), and potentially a few Legionnaries of the Dead and a handful of golems; and the armies of Ferelden, that were also decimated by a civil war. IIRC, I guess the Blackstone Irregulars also helped, but again, was a crippled mercenary force, as you killed one of the leaders plus his followers in a quests. So, with a ragtag army and little resources, the Warden ended a Blight. Even Garahel, who was an accomplished general and genious tactician, and had a lot of advisors and the stuff, ended a Blight in 12 years, and that's the shortest Blight before the Fifth. And Garahel needed the armies of the Anderfels, the Free Marches, Antiva, a token force from Orlais, and a lot of mercenary companies bolstering the Grey Wardens (the whole Warden army, not only just two fellow Wardens). It is logical that even if another Warden made the Ultimate Sacrifice, the Warden ended up as the Hero of Ferelden. I agree in the part where you said that the 5th blight was contained in Ferelden and that lasted 1 year,I disagree however as to use these facts as a way to explain the popularity of HoF because is the opposite.The HoF is (no matter the ending) less popular than both Gharael and Corin,for the simple reason that the 2nd and 4th blight caused a lot more troubles and endured far long than the 5th blight(the fact that Gharael needed 12 years is a benefit for his popularity not a detriment),this allowed to those two GW to be known more in Thedas when compared to the HoF which never accomplished anything outside of Ferelden. The fact that makes irrelevant in terms of popularity the one who kills the Archdemons is the fact that the US is a SECRET. So nobody know it. Corin and Gharael became popular not because they killed an AD,but because they were popular generals,I also do not believe that in their case the US was a big price to pay since they were already very,very close to their calling.
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Post by Abraxas on May 8, 2017 22:33:08 GMT
I agree in the part where you said that the 5th blight was contained in Ferelden and that lasted 1 year,I disagree however as to use these facts as a way to explain the popularity of HoF because is the opposite.The HoF is (no matter the ending) less popular than both Gharael and Corin,for the simple reason that the 2nd and 4th blight caused a lot more troubles and endured far long than the 5th blight(the fact that Gharael needed 12 years is a benefit for his popularity not a detriment),this allowed to those two GW to be known more in Thedas when compared to the HoF which never accomplished anything outside of Ferelden. The fact that makes irrelevant in terms of popularity the one who kills the Archdemons is the fact that the US is a SECRET. So nobody know it. Corin and Gharael became popular not because they killed an AD,but because they were popular generals,I also do not believe that in their case the US was a big price to pay since they were already very,very close to their calling. Putting it that way, yeah, you're partially right there. 12 years is a lot of time to become widely known, and therefore, popular, but ending a Blight in a year is a feat one hardly can ignore. Is a feat of legendary status (not even Andraste could defeat the Imperium in a year, with the Maker's might backing her—according to legend, at least). And the fact that the HoF did so with only minimal resources and no international help only helps to make this feat more glorious. Is like "we Fereldens can care of ourselves on our own, don't bother trying to help. Thanks". Plus, there are more factors that helped to increase the popularity of the HoF. S/he was the one who found the Temple of Sacred Ashes, an icon to the Thedosian faith (and this is not a player-dependent choice, as in Inquisition the people was fully aware of the temple, and the ill-fated Divine's Conclave was held there). This alone can make a person a living legend, and I bet is this the fact that allowed the reputation of the HoF to be known across Thedas. "Chantry Sister: The Warden-Commander of Ferelden is the one who found the Temple of Sacred Ashes. The Maker acts in mysterious ways. "Random guy: Who the hell is that person? Random guy: The one who single-handedly ended the Blight in year with a small army and no help of Orlais and other countries." Enough to start a legend. (And we know for dialogue with Revered Mother Elthina in DA2, that the Chantry was spreading the legend at some point, as an example of the Maker still helping humanity in "mysterious ways"). Plus, pissing off Celene I (empress of the most powerful nation in current Thedas) can also help to spread even more the HoF legend. According to Seneschal Varel in Awakening, one of the reasons why the Orlesian Grey Wardens only sent a dozen of Wardens to bolster the Fereldan contingent was the fact that Celene wasn't pleased of her country losing the opportunity to shine in the Blight. If Varel know this, that means this gossip is public knowledge. Plus, whatever you do at the end of Awakening, the HoF becomes more legendary because of that. If s/he saved Amaranthine, that is THE Ferelden port, her/his name becomes widely known as a hero of the people; if saved Vigil's Keep, that victory is renowned as one of the most important military victories in the history of the Grey Warden order, and the HoF add the title of "legendary strategist" to her/his legend as well. Plus what you say. The secret of the real importance of the US also helps.
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Post by secretrare on May 17, 2017 13:09:04 GMT
Is the opposite of cowardice,because in order to be in that situation it means DR was refused,that alone proves that Warden is brave. If then they sacrificed Loghain or Alister,both can be explained rationally(with Alistair being senior right after Riordan and Loghain being in debt)
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2017 13:00:03 GMT
The regular order of US should be Alistair ->HoF-> Loghain (bc senior Warden gets sacrificed and all) but I mostly do the dark ritual
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Post by Iddy on May 18, 2017 15:33:02 GMT
The regular order of US should be Alistair ->HoF-> Loghain (bc senior Warden gets sacrificed and all) but I mostly do the dark ritual One might argue that the HoF was the leader of the gathered army, so this duty would fall to him/her first.
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Post by Kei on May 20, 2017 23:01:31 GMT
The regular order of US should be Alistair ->HoF-> Loghain (bc senior Warden gets sacrificed and all) but I mostly do the dark ritual One might argue that the HoF was the leader of the gathered army, so this duty would fall to him/her first. By that logic HoF comes before to Riordan which is the senior GW there,I think that is a very contrived argument. Riordan----Alistair-----Loghain\Warden this should be the default order DR was never even an option for me and I hope it backfire horribly in DAI part II (alias DA4).It doesn't make much sense for it to be free just because they don't have the money to show the outcomes.
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Post by Abraxas on May 21, 2017 0:48:42 GMT
The ranks of the Grey Wardens are determined by seniority. The HoF is maybe the appointed general of the Fereldan Coalition, yes, but is still out-ranked by Riordan, because Riordan is the Senior Warden. Riordan leading the assault to Denerim's gates and giving orders to the HoF afterwards pretty much confirm this.
The HoF only begins to out-rank Senior Wardens when he/she is promoted to Warden-Commander. Something that we know it was done on purpose by the First Warden to capitalize in the fact that for the people of Ferelden it would be more easy to trust in their hero than in a foreign, more experienced Warden (if you play Awakening with the Orlesian Warden-Commander, he/she faces more problems with the nobles than if you play with the HoF Warden-Commander).
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Post by Prince on May 21, 2017 3:05:30 GMT
The ranks of the Grey Wardens are determined by seniority. The HoF is maybe the appointed general of the Fereldan Coalition, yes, but is still out-ranked by Riordan, because Riordan is the Senior Warden. Riordan leading the assault to Denerim's gates and giving orders to the HoF afterwards pretty much confirm this. The HoF only begins to out-rank Senior Wardens when he/she is promoted to Warden-Commander. Something that we know it was done on purpose by the First Warden to capitalize in the fact that for the people of Ferelden it would be more easy to trust in their hero than in a foreign, more experienced Warden (if you play Awakening with the Orlesian Warden-Commander, he/she faces more problems with the nobles than if you play with the HoF Warden-Commander). I don't like the fact that they've forced the Warden of DAO to become Commander in DAA no matter what, unless they didn't died.If they don't want to become Commanders why don't always give the Orlesian warden as an option?BAH BioWare...
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Post by Abraxas on May 21, 2017 3:33:46 GMT
Yeah, I think the same. They should have allowed to use the OW Warden as an alternative choice to the Hero. Or at least to properly carry our decisions to Awakening if we killed the Hero.
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Post by daelonduluc on Jun 28, 2017 16:52:28 GMT
I'd like to have Loghain do it so that the HoF will have a normal baby with Morrigan and live with her. But... I can't find a way to justify the decision in game. People usually say "My Warden granted him the chance to atone", but here is the thing: Sten also wanted to atone by accepting death in Lothering. And yet, you convinced him to redeem himself by living on and doing good deeds. Why not do the same for Loghain? Because the Warden is too afraid of dying? Too weak willed to face a grey warden's burden? I just wish I could make this choice and feel good about it afterwards. Absolutely not! Loghain is a horror and deserves what he gets (usually death in my case). He betrayed his king in a power grab, turned on his own daughter and threatened the very existence of Thedas with his own hubris and greed. IMO irredeemable. Besides, I have use for Sten. Loghain is worthless. JMHO.
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Post by Hagoromo on Jul 2, 2017 9:26:12 GMT
I'd like to have Loghain do it so that the HoF will have a normal baby with Morrigan and live with her. But... I can't find a way to justify the decision in game. People usually say "My Warden granted him the chance to atone", but here is the thing: Sten also wanted to atone by accepting death in Lothering. And yet, you convinced him to redeem himself by living on and doing good deeds. Why not do the same for Loghain? Because the Warden is too afraid of dying? Too weak willed to face a grey warden's burden? I just wish I could make this choice and feel good about it afterwards. Absolutely not! Loghain is a horror and deserves what he gets (usually death in my case). He betrayed his king in a power grab, turned on his own daughter and threatened the very existence of Thedas with his own hubris and greed. IMO irredeemable. Besides, I have use for Sten. Loghain is worthless. JMHO. I think you've totally twisted Loghain by making his motives to be correlated with greed but that's definetly not his case. Cailan killed himself when he decided to be on the frontlines despite the obvious fact that it isn't the job of a king to do something like that,and he was even warned by Loghain several times into not going there. I would say in fact most of the time people are unable to comprehend that what Loghain did in Ostagar not only it isn't a crime(as he had the authority to do that) but was overall a wise move as Solas pointed out in DAI.His other crimes aren't deserving of death because if they are punished with that than the same kind of Justice should be applied to Warden as well,who during the course of the game it surely kills more people than Loghain. As for his usefulness,well he is in fact more useful than Sten and I would dare to say than everyone else just like Alistair as he is usable to destroy the Archdemon and his soul and he is one of the only two NPC who can do that;It's an ending like the WC which it allows to finish the game by making Morrigan and Flemeth fail in their plan without have to use the ma in protagonist,overall I would say is the obejectively smartest ending and it can be achieved only with Loghain(or Alistair if one wants to get rid of him as well)
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Post by Catilina on Jul 2, 2017 12:20:51 GMT
Absolutely not! Loghain is a horror and deserves what he gets (usually death in my case). He betrayed his king in a power grab, turned on his own daughter and threatened the very existence of Thedas with his own hubris and greed. IMO irredeemable. Besides, I have use for Sten. Loghain is worthless. JMHO. I think you've totally twisted Loghain by making his motives to be correlated with greed but that's definetly not his case. Cailan killed himself when he decided to be on the frontlines despite the obvious fact that it isn't the job of a king to do something like that,and he was even warned by Loghain several times into not going there. I would say in fact most of the time people are unable to comprehend that what Loghain did in Ostagar not only it isn't a crime(as he had the authority to do that) but was overall a wise move as Solas pointed out in DAI.His other crimes aren't deserving of death because if they are punished with that than the same kind of Justice should be applied to Warden as well,who during the course of the game it surely kills more people than Loghain. As for his usefulness,well he is in fact more useful than Sten and I would dare to say than everyone else just like Alistair as he is usable to destroy the Archdemon and his soul and he is one of the only two NPC who can do that;It's an ending like the WC which it allows to finish the game by making Morrigan and Flemeth fail in their plan without have to use the ma in protagonist,overall I would say is the obejectively smartest ending and it can be achieved only with Loghain(or Alistair if one wants to get rid of him as well) And the elves sold themselves, and Eamon poisoned himself, the remained wardens pursued and killed themselves, the Couslands committed mass suicide with the people of their house, and Anora closed herself. Yes. Loghain did nothing wrong.
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Post by XJlock on Jul 2, 2017 20:30:06 GMT
If your subordinates willingly proposed to sacrifice themselves instead of being forced to do it, then I suppose it is not.
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Post by Hagoromo on Jul 2, 2017 22:46:37 GMT
And the elves sold themselves, and Eamon poison himself, the remained wardens pursued and killed themselves, and the Couslands committed mass suicide with the people of their house, and Anora closed herself. Yes. Loghain did nothing wrong. I don't really like when people twists my own posts and start with totally unrelated responses due to their own reading comprhension issues.I've clearly responded on a post about Loghain in Ostagar and not about Loghain POST-Ostagar. If you want to talk about that, sure I can do that,but don't quote a post which is mostly.unrelated with what you said in the response. I will adress your post from here, I've took the liberty to specify it because i don't have that much faith in your intelligence. -In first place Loghain has nothing to do with the Couslands,that is Arle Howe. Most importantly as I've said and will repeat again,if one kills Loghain for those crimes then they should apply the same severity to both HERO OF FERELDEN AND ALISTAIR and kill them as well,cause the number of deaths they caused are superior to those of Loghain.
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Post by Mark7 on Jul 2, 2017 22:54:09 GMT
Don't waste time with that user,usually his/her post never adress the quoted response and are full of hyperboles which are always unrelated to it.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 2, 2017 22:57:59 GMT
And the elves sold themselves, and Eamon poison himself, the remained wardens pursued and killed themselves, and the Couslands committed mass suicide with the people of their house, and Anora closed herself. Yes. Loghain did nothing wrong. I don't really like when people twists my own posts and start with totally unrelated responses due to their own reading comprehnsion issues.I've clearly responded on a post about Loghain in Ostagar and not about Loghain post Ostagar. If you want to talk about that, sure I can do that,but don't quote a post which is totally unrelated with what you said in the respinse. -In first place Loghain has nothing to do with Cousland,that is Howe. And in secondo place AS I'VE SAID and will repeat again,if one kills Loghain for those crimes then.they should apply the same severity to both HERO OF FERELDEN AND ALISTIR and kill them as well,cause the number of deaths they caused are superior to those of Loghain. Who likes it? About Loghain and Alistair and Hero of Ferelden: no one of them abused his political power and sell their own people. You can let Loghain redeem himself, this is a good choice, and executing him also a good choice. Not because of his "tactical retreat", rather because of he abused his political power, to sell his own people, used Uldred to make chaos, and jeopardized Ferelden with criminalizing and pursue wardens at a Blight. And allied with Howe, instead of locks him into jail...
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Post by oyabun on Jul 2, 2017 23:11:48 GMT
Who likes it? About Loghain and Alistair and Hero of Ferelden: no one of them abused his political power and sell their own people. You can let Loghain redeem himself, this is a good choice, and executing him also a good choice. Not because of his "tactical retreat", rather because of he abused his political power, to sell his own people, used Uldred to make chaos, and jeopardized Ferelden with criminalizing and pursue wardens at a Blight. And allied with Howe, instead of locks him into jail... I don't think this makes much sense. Regardless of political powers owned or not owned if you want to talk about Justice then you should talk about it properly and not out of bias.Justice should be for it's own nature blindfolded in which it doesn't make differences to anyone. The fact that Warden or Alistair (or any other of their companions for that matter)aren't regents it doesn't change the fact that they are murderers,which means that killing Loghain for Justice it automatically means to apply the same judgement on Warden and company for the people they murdered(and I will remind you that they have genocied the population of Heaven) because once again one of the 3 principles of Justice is the fact that is blindfolded. I've already explained this in the past but you refuse to comprhend out of bias,killing Loghain is retribution not Justice which means that this is not a good NOR a lawful action,and in fact it isn't part of the rules of the Landsmeet. There is a reason why Justice is in fact only administrated by a 3rd impartial party that doesn't belong to the contention and never by those who are directly involved.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 2, 2017 23:38:24 GMT
Who likes it? About Loghain and Alistair and Hero of Ferelden: no one of them abused his political power and sell their own people. You can let Loghain redeem himself, this is a good choice, and executing him also a good choice. Not because of his "tactical retreat", rather because of he abused his political power, to sell his own people, used Uldred to make chaos, and jeopardized Ferelden with criminalizing and pursue wardens at a Blight. And allied with Howe, instead of locks him into jail... I don't think this makes much sense. Regardless of political powers owned or not owned if you want to talk about Justice then you should talk about it properly and not out of bias.Justice should be for it's own nature blindfolded in which it doesn't make differences to anyone. The fact that Warden or Alistair (or any other of their companions for that matter)aren't regents it doesn't change the fact that they are murderers,which means that killing Loghain for Justice it automatically means to apply the same judgement on Warden and company for the people they murdered (and I will remind you that they have genocied the population of Heaven) because once again one of the 3 principles of Justice is the fact that is blinfolded. I've already explained this in the past but you refuse to comprhend out of bias,killing Loghain is retribution not Justice which means that this is not a good NOR a lawful action,and in fact it isn't part of the rules of the Landsmeet. Because they attacked the Warden? The elves didn't attack Loghain. Probably was a very cruel thing to killing the darkspawns, but they also attacked the Warden. Yes, the Warden can be evil or/and cruel. But s/he can be a good/not bad person too, who only kill people, when attacked by the people. I can accept, that an execution mostly retribution, not really justice. The borders are blurry. Most of the elves, who were almost sold, would consider his execution as justice. Anora considers as retribution. The Landsmeet not really protested against this act, so this was very lawful, if the Landsmeet is a lawful institution.
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Post by oyabun on Jul 2, 2017 23:48:43 GMT
Yes, the Warden can be evil or/and cruel. But s/he can be a good/not bad person too, who only kill people, when attacked by the people. I can accept, that an execution mostly retribution, not really justice. The borders are blurry. Most of the elves, who were almost sold, would consider his execution as justice. Anora considers as retribution. The Landsmeet not really protested against this act, so this was very lawful, if the Landsmeet is a lawful institution. The insecurity of thy post it just prove to me that there aren't strong arguments that you have to offer anymore.My previous post was beyond the player roleplaying,as regardless of how you roleplay the Warden has to kill people,and I've mentioned Haven specifically because not only you can't avoid the quest,but because there the Warden is the offender not the villagers. Once again as I've said killing Loghain for Justice it should be followed with killing the Warden and companions for Justice as well or else that steam into hypocrisy because you've deprived Justice of one.of.it's 3 main attributes. The nobles of the Landsmeet don't oppose the warden not because they have accepted the decision,but because they lack the power to stop them.
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