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Post by oyabun on Feb 20, 2017 16:58:58 GMT
My canon Warden let Loghain kill him. She wasn't going to let Morrigan preserve the Archdemon's life, and she had developed a bit of a death wish/martyr complex anyway, so she was fully ready to pay the price to ensure it was destroyed. However, Loghain's plea for a meaningful death really hit her hard. At that point, she simply wanted to throw her life away to end the Blight. So she acquiesced to his wishes and let him strike the final blow. Also, in a meta-sense, I almost never do US Wardens, because their world states can't be carried over to Awakening. Of my 8 different Wardens coming from completed playthroughs or intended future ones (including the primary canon one above) : Sacrificed Loghain - 4 times Dark Ritual, Alistair/Morrigan - 2 times Dark Ritual, Warden/Morrigan - 1 time Ultimate Sacrifice - 1 time Sten wanted to atone by dying at the hands of the approaching darkspawn horde, and yet the Warden convinces him to redeem himself with his actions in life. Why is Loghain the only one whose death wish is granted? Sten cannot be killed in DAO,it doesn't matter what he say he doesn't remain in Lothering in any case. Loghain's wish to be killed can be denied to him at the Landsmeet,I don't see why however he shouldn't be allowed to murder Urthemiel,he is just doing a service to Thedas. His cameo in DAI is not bad but is kind of silly if compared to the presentation of the character in DAO.
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Post by Iddy on Feb 20, 2017 17:05:00 GMT
Sten wanted to atone by dying at the hands of the approaching darkspawn horde, and yet the Warden convinces him to redeem himself with his actions in life. Why is Loghain the only one whose death wish is granted? Sten cannot be killed in DAO,it doesn't matter what he say he doesn't remain in Lothering in any case. Loghain's wish to be killed can be denied to him at the Landsmeet,I don't see why however he shouldn't be allowed to murder Urthemiel,he is just doing a service to Thedas. His cameo in DAI is not bad but is kind of silly if compared to the presentation of the character in DAO. He can be left to die, however.
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Post by Lazarillo on Feb 20, 2017 17:11:05 GMT
Sten wanted to atone by dying at the hands of the approaching darkspawn horde, and yet the Warden convinces him to redeem himself with his actions in life. Why is Loghain the only one whose death wish is granted? Asking the tough questions. If I had to give an excuse outside of the meta "I, the player, always recruit everyone", I suspect what made the difference for my Warden is that Loghain wanted to accomplish something in his death. Sten had simply accepted that he was going to die. "Please, I've done so much wrong. Allow me to do one last thing right."
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Post by oyabun on Feb 20, 2017 17:19:14 GMT
Sten cannot be killed in DAO,it doesn't matter what he say he doesn't remain in Lothering in any case. Loghain's wish to be killed can be denied to him at the Landsmeet,I don't see why however he shouldn't be allowed to murder Urthemiel,he is just doing a service to Thedas. His cameo in DAI is not bad but is kind of silly if compared to the presentation of the character in DAO. He can be left to die, however. He can be left in the cage by the player yes however he doesn't remain there in the end he leave on his own.Still even if the warden does not recruit him that doesn't mean he is left there because the warden want to grant him a death wish more likely because they don't trust him after he murdered those people. Basically what I'm saying is Sten and Loghain are two entirely different cases.
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Post by Iddy on Feb 20, 2017 17:37:47 GMT
He can be left to die, however. He can be left in the cage by the player yes however he doesn't remain there in the end he leave on his own.Still even if the warden does not recruit him that doesn't mean he is left there because the warden want to grant him a death wish more likely because they don't trust him after he murdered those people. Basically what I'm saying is Sten and Loghain are two entirely different cases. And what if the Warden recruits both Sten and Loghain?
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Post by oyabun on Feb 20, 2017 17:44:08 GMT
And what if the Warden recruits both Sten and Loghain? What do you mean? What is the link between this question and the first contention? If Sten is recruited and then Loghain is recruited as well I don't see why it follows that Loghain shouldn't be sacrificed. The Game does not allow to make Sten a GW otherwise using him or Loghain for the AD wouldn't have made any difference.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Feb 21, 2017 10:02:08 GMT
Lately I'm leaning more to the side of the Ultimate Sacrifice for these reasons: Uh...uh Leave that ship and jump with us on the Loghain's boat.
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Post by secretrare on Feb 21, 2017 10:36:51 GMT
Lately I'm leaning more to the side of the Ultimate Sacrifice for these reasons: Uh...uh Leave that ship and jump with us on the Loghain's boat. My choice is the US because if the Warden doesn't want to obey to me whenever a writer said so then she is of no use to me and she can die.I don't need to be given pseudo-choices if something will happen whether or not I want it to.I hope that after Inquisition comes the start of a franchise which strives to maintain more narrative continuity, because the past many games have not done so since BioWare has prioritizes characters returning over confirming and maintaining the effects of the player choices.
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Post by Prince on Feb 21, 2017 10:58:18 GMT
Uh...uh Leave that ship and jump with us on the Loghain's boat. My choice is the US because if the Warden doesn't want to obey to me whenever a writer said so then she is of no use to me and she can die. How many bloodmage Hawkes were mad at blood mages in Inquisition? The Warden like Hawke It's just a fictional character on an elaborate set of rails but there is no such thing as true freedom of choices in this franchise. The rest is basically up to your imagination, though it probably doesn't matter now, since all surviving Wardens are doing the exact same thing. That's why I've never understood people who makes claim like " My warden is awesome because they did this or that" they are all Bioware potential wardens,there is no such thing as "My warden".
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2017 14:05:02 GMT
Alistair betrayed my Warden because she was not good enough to carry his babies, so the Warden directed him into the bed of the witch who could give him babies. Scary mutant demon babies. All three survived the experience to live with the consequences. Good grey stuff.
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Post by Lazarillo on Feb 21, 2017 21:41:03 GMT
That's why I've never understood people who makes claim like " My warden is awesome because they did this or that" they are all Bioware potential wardens,there is no such thing as "My warden". This is kind of why I hope and prefer to not really see the player characters again. If they're not included, then I can decide for myself why "my" character isn't around. If they are, I end up potentially losing other potential "canons". Just like you mentioned with Blood Mage Hawkes, if they had just left Hawke out completely, then it wouldn't matter. And I'm the type that tends to work backwards...I am perfectly happy to decide my "canon" based, at least, in part on the rails that Bioware defines. The problem is that I can retroactively "lose" characters whose canon stops making sense due to the way they're featured in later game developments (I never had a Blood Mage Hawke, for example, but I have a hard time justifying me Lelianamancer City Elf based on threads from Inquisition). It's fun to see what our player characters are up to in a way, but I think leaving them alone is going to be more satisfying in the long term.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2017 22:10:34 GMT
That's why I've never understood people who makes claim like " My warden is awesome because they did this or that" they are all Bioware potential wardens,there is no such thing as "My warden". This is kind of why I hope and prefer to not really see the player characters again. If they're not included, then I can decide for myself why "my" character isn't around. If they are, I end up potentially losing other potential "canons". Just like you mentioned with Blood Mage Hawkes, if they had just left Hawke out completely, then it wouldn't matter. And I'm the type that tends to work backwards...I am perfectly happy to decide my "canon" based, at least, in part on the rails that Bioware defines. The problem is that I can retroactively "lose" characters whose canon stops making sense due to the way they're featured in later game developments (I never had a Blood Mage Hawke, for example, but I have a hard time justifying me Lelianamancer City Elf based on threads from Inquisition). It's fun to see what our player characters are up to in a way, but I think leaving them alone is going to be more satisfying in the long term. I need a macro for: "And here is another reason why I don't own Inquisition." The amount of beef I saved myself by not playing it can nigh feed the Lothering for a few days.
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Post by secretrare on Feb 22, 2017 8:55:23 GMT
My choice is the US because if the Warden doesn't want to obey to me whenever a writer said so then she is of no use to me and she can die. How many bloodmage Hawkes were mad at blood mages in Inquisition? The Warden like Hawke It's just a fictional character on an elaborate set of rails but there is no such thing as true freedom of choices in this franchise. The rest is basically up to your imagination, though it probably doesn't matter now, since all surviving Wardens are doing the exact same thing. That's why I've never understood people who makes claim like " My warden is awesome because they did this or that" they are all Bioware potential wardens,there is no such thing as "My warden". I may agree with you on that and if that is true then they should stop at calling these games Rpg if certain choices are being outright denied or ignored by the writers. In the case I was discussing murdering Morrigan in RedclieffeAt the very least, you should have an option to attack her when she offers you the ritual. It's kind of irritating that your character can say "I should have killed you", but then you just sort of stare at her as she strolls out.
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Post by Prince on Feb 22, 2017 10:47:59 GMT
How many bloodmage Hawkes were mad at blood mages in Inquisition? The Warden like Hawke It's just a fictional character on an elaborate set of rails but there is no such thing as true freedom of choices in this franchise. The rest is basically up to your imagination, though it probably doesn't matter now, since all surviving Wardens are doing the exact same thing. That's why I've never understood people who makes claim like " My warden is awesome because they did this or that" they are all Bioware potential wardens,there is no such thing as "My warden". I may agree with you on that and if that is true then they should stop at calling these games Rpg if certain choices are being outright denied or ignored by the writers. In the case I was discussing murdering Morrigan in RedclieffeAt the very least, you should have an option to attack her when she offers you the ritual. It's kind of irritating that your character can say "I should have killed you", but then you just sort of stare at her as she strolls out. We agree that the Warden it's arguably never your character. They are part of the IP that is Dragon Age and therefore they cannot be separate entitities introduced from elsewhere. The issue you are arising now is slightly different than I had previously thought,it's about the choice play system. The choice-play system in DA is self-serving, it force the story to bend into less than believable twists just to give you your daily Big Choice,this is especially true for DAO and the scenario you've presented is no different than that. The problem is that We don't "own" anything in the game. Ownership of the game is closer to a license to play it. You can't play it however you wish but the IP(Intellectual Property) belongs to BioWare, and by extension now, I suppose, EA. As such, they are those who really decide the outcomes of their games.I know it is irritating but what else you can do?You don't have any control on this story all you can do is follow it.I even once argued that whoever created the concept of the DR and the US made several logical gaps as their mechanics are self contradicting,but other than follow the plot what else you can do?
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Post by Jarovbees on Feb 24, 2017 17:34:29 GMT
I've seen all the options via youtube videos, but the only one I've personally bothered with is the Dark Ritual ending with Alistair. (All my Wardens are ladies, so they can't do the ritual themselves, and Loghain almost always dies at the Landsmeet.) Even the ones who don't trust Morrigan all that much tend to prefer living if at all possible, and I prefer being able to play them in Awakening/other DLCs, so it works out. Some might wonder/worry about the consequences more than others, but oh well. They saved the world that one time, someone else can deal with it.
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 25, 2017 8:35:44 GMT
The Wardens I played all executed Loghain. Only once I made him briefly a GW out of curiosity, talked with him in camp, then reloaded the pre-Landsmeet save and killed him. As for the Ultimate Sacrifice - Dark Ritual choices: the Cousland, Aeducan and Amell Wardens do the US. With one exception: a female Cousland, who considered having an heir for Ferelden her duty as a noblewoman, so convinced Alistair to do the DR for the future of Ferelden. She was quite headstrong. A male Cousland or Amell are Andrastian and don`t trust Morrigan. The Aeducan hates Darkspawn so completely that he will never allow ever a faint chance for another Blight. He considers Darkspawn the biggest curse for all dwarfs, and especially for the entire Aeducan lineage, starting with paragon Aeducan. And he sort of lost his big brother and father because of the Blight, and was forced to kill his little brother. He is not stupid, knows that Bhelen is to blame, but the opportunity for the coup appeared with the Blight. After having his family revenge, he is at peace with his choices and ready to end Urthemiel forever. Something similar but lighter in the case of a Cousland or Amell, who both have seen the destruction of their former worlds (Highever, the Calenhad Tower) because of the Blight. A Dalish Mahariel and a Surana will accept Morrigan`s explanation about preserving the Old God soul as worthwhile. Since both are familiar to be part of something bigger (a clan, the Circle) they don`t fuss over the choice and the changes the old soul will make to a newborn. They also have their lifetime duties, as Marethari made it clear for a Mahariel, and as every Circle mage learns early. A city elf and a casteless dwarf are choosing the DR because they see Riordan`s last minute explanation as a convenient plot to force them to made the US. Since both have chosen Alistair as the new Ferelden king, it`s clear that he`s untouchable and no longer suited to the GW main job - killing the Archdemon. Riordan`s last minute "revelation" seems too convenient to remove both from their place in history, leaving the nobles all the glory and fame. Quite a paranoid thinking, but you cannot really blame them, considering what happens to them just before being recruited by Duncan. Riordan had ample time to tell both new wardens about this BEFORE the Landsmeet, but he never bothered. So my Tabris and Brosca are both quite happy to choose Morrigan`s ritual and give a finger sign to fate and all living and dead nobles. As for the moral consequences of both US and DR: since we still don`t know about the exact role those Old Gods (dragons) have on Thedas, choosing any of these two alternatives is a leap of faith. If these dragons are indeed destructive forces and nothing more, the US is better. If they are vital for the survival of all surface life in Thedas (as the Titans are apparently for the underground life) then the DR is the better choice. Either way, our Warden cannot know the truth by the time s/he has to make the choice. So it`s more about what s/he knows and trusts. I tried to roleplay my Wardens as closely as possible to their origin and background, so this is what they have chosen.
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Post by oyabun on Feb 25, 2017 15:08:12 GMT
As for the moral consequences of both US and DR: since we still don`t know about the exact role those Old Gods (dragons) have on Thedas, choosing any of these two alternatives is a leap of faith. If these dragons are indeed destructive forces and nothing more, the US is better. If they are vital for the survival of all surface life in Thedas (as the Titans are apparently for the underground life) then the DR is the better choice. Either way, our Warden cannot know the truth by the time s/he has to make the choice. So it`s more about what s/he knows and trusts. The sacrifice route(doesn't matter who is the one who is executing it)is the known way of removing the AD threat and ensure the maximum amount of security for all of Thedas both in the short as well as the long term,so it is in my estimation not based on faith at all. If you assume that old gods are somehow vital for Thedas you should first prove that point with some evidences or metaknowledge if you desire(and there is noone provided by the games) moreover even if you believe that they are vital what does the DR do to preserve the Old God? Urthemiel is removed from his location and killed regardless, so all that the ritual it does is to preserve his spiritual consciousness with the Original old god's brain and body being destroyed. The DR arises a lot of serious problems for Thedas stability both in the short term as well as the long term: 1)WIll the soul of the old god be able to emitt the calling in this new human body thus force the darkspawn to not retreat from the surface? 2)Will the darkspawns be able to taint this reborn old god one day and start another blight? 3)Is Urhtemiel good?Why he lured his acolyte in the Black city? 4)Is Urthemiel worth preserving?Why did he helped the magisters in killing hundreds of elves to enter the fade? 5)If the DR comes from Flemeth,will she be able to find this old god in the future? (Checkmate she did) 6)Will Morrigan try to use this child to gain it's powers? 7)What is that Solas wants to do if he achieved that power? 8)will the soul of the child be sacrificed at conception so that the AD soul will take control of the body? 9)Will this child use his powers and knowledge in order to dominate Thedas?If so who will stop a being with the knowledge of an old god? 10)If Urthemiel will reveal himself to be evil,how you will kill it if he is not an archdemon anymore? For all you know he could be completely immortal to conventional weapons and the Ultimate sacrifce can't work anymore on an awakened old god. The DR is the option based on quite a lot of faith that all these possibilities should never happen....with the Sacrifice route all my previous points can't even come to being. So the morally good option which is not based on faith at all is indeed the Sacrifice.
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 25, 2017 16:23:21 GMT
you should first prove that point with some evidences or metaknowledge if you desire Question is, can you? Are you able to provide evidence about the Old God dragons being just dangerous, and not important for the survival of Thedas as it is? Because I`m not at all convinced about their role, but you are sure. Bioware likes to hide away vital DA lore. Which is normal, since most people inhabiting Thedas don`t know a thing about Old Dragons and Titans for instance. And those with knowledge about them (Flemeth, Solas) don`t want to share. Tell me, what did we know about Titans and their role before DA:I ? All we know about the Old Dragons is that for some reason they are in slumber underground. If Mythal was battling them the same way she did with the Titans, and they were imprisoned instead of killed, they are both dangerous and important. Maybe this is why Flemeth wanted to save Urthemiel`s soul. Which raises the question: Why Flemeth never tried this before, with the other four Old Dragons? Because she was not able to reach them during the Blights? Or she wasn`t ready? Or she had a specific plan with Urthemiel`s soul, involving also Morrigan? We don`t know anything for sure, and since the DR was made optional by Bioware, most likely that this controversy will be buried. But the DR also made me think: if the Old Dragons were BOTH dangerous and vital, whoever was REALLY responsible creating the Darkspawn and tainting the Old Dragons may have an interest in destroying Thedas. So, who is this entity? Because I don`t think it was all an accidental thing done by the Magisters. My guess is that Bioware writers are using some tips from Brandon Sanderson`s first Mistborn trilogy. And there are several overturns in those books, like choices considered to be good turning out to be evil. So maybe even if the Darkspawn threat will be buried by Patrick Weekes, it`s possible that the old gods still have some role to play in DA...
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Post by melbella on Feb 25, 2017 18:43:34 GMT
Done all of them and since I don't really have a canon story, didn't vote for one above the rest. The choice depends on how I rp my Warden for that particular game.
In my most recent game, I kicked Morrigan out of the party early on and told her to go away again at Redcliffe. Forced Al to marry Anora and made Loghain a Warden. Had Loghain hold the gates by himself at the end so my Warden could kill Archie. Played as the Orlesian Warden in DAA for that run, just to try it out one time.
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Post by oyabun on Feb 25, 2017 21:52:40 GMT
you should first prove that point with some evidences or metaknowledge if you desire Question is, can you? Are you able to provide evidence about the Old God dragons being just dangerous, and not important for the survival of Thedas as it is? Because I`m not at all convinced about their role, but you are sure. Bioware likes to hide away vital DA lore. Which is normal, since most people inhabiting Thedas don`t know a thing about Old Dragons and Titans for instance. And those with knowledge about them (Flemeth, Solas) don`t want to share. Tell me, what did we know about Titans and their role before DA:I ? All we know about the Old Dragons is that for some reason they are in slumber underground. If Mythal was battling them the same way she did with the Titans, and they were imprisoned instead of killed, they are both dangerous and important. Maybe this is why Flemeth wanted to save Urthemiel`s soul. Which raises the question: Why Flemeth never tried this before, with the other four Old Dragons? Because she was not able to reach them during the Blights? Or she wasn`t ready? Or she had a specific plan with Urthemiel`s soul, involving also Morrigan? We don`t know anything for sure, and since the DR was made optional by Bioware, most likely that this controversy will be buried. But the DR also made me think: if the Old Dragons were BOTH dangerous and vital, whoever was REALLY responsible creating the Darkspawn and tainting the Old Dragons may have an interest in destroying Thedas. So, who is this entity? Because I don`t think it was all an accidental thing done by the Magisters. My guess is that Bioware writers are using some tips from Brandon Sanderson`s first Mistborn trilogy. And there are several overturns in those books, like choices considered to be good turning out to be evil. So maybe even if the Darkspawn threat will be buried by Patrick Weekes, it`s possible that the old gods still have some role to play in DA... Yes I Can because I have more evidences than yours to support my own claims. In the first place you did not adressed any of the 10th points I made about the dangers of the DR. As for the old gods being vital,well 5 are murdered their names are: Dumat,Zazikale,Toth,Andhoral and Urthemiel and yet the world of Thedas is still there that is more of an evidence than all of those you've provided(none) plus in this setting Gods are mostly titles given to beings rather than their true nature(Codex of Galenduran thr elven god,Solas Revelations about the nature of the Gods). There isn't anything that is vital NOR necessary for the stability of the planet in which Thedas is. I think it's kind of ridiculous how people are trying to paint the DR as the wise option following the belief that old gods are vital without any evidence for it.
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 25, 2017 22:02:11 GMT
Yes I Can because I have more evidences than yours to support my own claims. In the first place you did not adressed any of the 10th points I made about the dangers of the DR. As for the old gods being vital,well 5 are murdered their names are: Dumat,Zazikale,Toth,Andhoral and Urthemiel and yet the world of Thedas is still there that is more of an evidente than all of those you've provided(nome) plus in this setting Gods are mostly titles given to beings rather than their true nature(Codex of Galenduran elven god). There isn't anything that is vital NOR necessary for the stability of the planet in which Thedas is. I think it's kind of ridiculous how people are trying to paint the DR as the wise option following the belief that old gods are vital without any evidence for it. We`ll see.
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Post by Kei on Feb 25, 2017 22:33:20 GMT
well 5 are murdered their names are: Dumat,Zazikale,Toth,Andhoral and Urthemiel and yet the world of Thedas is still there that is more of an evidence than all of those you've provided(none) plus in this setting Gods are mostly titles given to beings rather than their true nature(Codex of Galenduran the elven god,Solas Revelations about the nature of the Gods). There isn't anything that is vital NOR necessary for the stability of the planet in which Thedas is. I think it's kind of ridiculous how people are trying to paint the DR as the wise option following the belief that old gods are vital without any evidence for it. The ultimate goal being defeating archdemons.Not keeping their spirit alive because someone on your team has a fetish for the past. The god of beauty and Dumat are victims of their own folly. Exactly why I should have pity for them or their "souls"? Morrigan thinks it's just cool because it's old. Like a pair of shoes. She's like a Keeper -- except of Pointless Crap. At this point, even their most devoted high priestes are maniacs who hates them. On the moral ramifications of doing the DR, for a man to purposely impregnate a woman and then not be a father to the child produced is irresponsible even if the mother (Morrigan) is responsible for the separation. Further, what does receiving the soul of an old god exactly do to the child? Is it still really the warden's and Morrigan's child once this occurs?His behaviour was conpletely altered as an OGB from his original self. It's surprising Bioware didn't fully address legitimate concerns a Warden would have about the DR. Instead, it seems Bioware took it for granted that players would go through with the DR no questions asked. Well nice try Gaider but that didn't worked for me.I find it repulsive,disgusting,immoral,selfish and evil just like Morrigan
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Feb 25, 2017 23:09:33 GMT
With the DR I have to gamble on Morrigan being nice and having no bad plans ,on the Old god soul being nice and having no bad plans ,on Flemeth being nice and having no bad plans and on Solas being nice and.....oh well he has bad plans.
Jesus,that's a lot of unknowns just to save one GW.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Feb 25, 2017 23:48:05 GMT
With the DR I have to gamble on Morrigan being nice and having no bad plans ,on the Old god soul being nice and having no bad plans ,on Flemeth being nice and having no bad plans and on Solas being nice and.....oh well he has bad plans. Jesus,that's a lot of unknowns just to save one GW. And this gambling very interesting... especially for a mage!
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Post by Prince on Feb 26, 2017 0:26:26 GMT
With the DR I have to gamble on Morrigan being nice and having no bad plans ,on the Old god soul being nice and having no bad plans ,on Flemeth being nice and having no bad plans and on Solas being nice and.....oh well he has bad plans. Jesus,that's a lot of unknowns just to save one GW. And this gambling very interesting... especially for a mage! Who Solas?
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