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Post by Tuchanka Love on Aug 28, 2016 0:40:06 GMT
Well; going to the circle might work if your warden was evil or somewhat morally ambiguous. If they don't care "that" much about keeping the civilians alive and the thought of having some nobles indebted to you on that level had some pretty serious pro's. And if your character was confident enough in themselves that they could slay the demon if worst came to worst.....well, it was a risk worth taking. Either the choice is kinda risky. But the villagers still can somehow defend themselves and Isolde and Teagan can keep demonConnor entertained. Imo it's way better to go to the circle to get help than to freaking kill a child.
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Post by mattig89ch on Aug 28, 2016 7:21:33 GMT
Up to this point, I've never considered doing anything but running to the circle. It just never seemed like the 'good' choice. But role playing a non-magical warden, it does make sense to simply either kill the kid, or use the blood magic ritual and try to save the kid.
But then, I've never really done any role playing in games (other then D&D). Each character seems to make similar choices.
It might be interesting to try and RP a warrior...worth thinking about at any rate.
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Post by Nayawk on Aug 28, 2016 9:40:21 GMT
Either the choice is kinda risky. But the villagers still can somehow defend themselves and Isolde and Teagan can keep demonConnor entertained. Imo it's way better to go to the circle to get help than to freaking kill a child. Thats metagaming it though. You know Redcliffe can handle the time it takes to get to the circle and back because in game they do. But from the characters point of view, standing in a trashed castle, with dead soldiers and a demonic kid, do they really know the demon is going wait?
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Post by natureguy85 on Aug 29, 2016 20:48:45 GMT
Either the choice is kinda risky. But the villagers still can somehow defend themselves and Isolde and Teagan can keep demonConnor entertained. Imo it's way better to go to the circle to get help than to freaking kill a child. Thats metagaming it though. You know Redcliffe can handle the time it takes to get to the circle and back because in game they do. But from the characters point of view, standing in a trashed castle, with dead soldiers and a demonic kid, do they really know the demon is going wait? This was my point earlier. It's hard to get the sense for the passage of time when they move on the map, but isn't the round trip going to take a few weeks?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2016 23:53:49 GMT
Thats metagaming it though. You know Redcliffe can handle the time it takes to get to the circle and back because in game they do. But from the characters point of view, standing in a trashed castle, with dead soldiers and a demonic kid, do they really know the demon is going wait? This was my point earlier. It's hard to get the sense for the passage of time when they move on the map, but isn't the round trip going to take a few weeks? They say it's around a day's trip, so 2 days tops. That's also why they don't lock up Jowan. He is kept there to make sure Connor doesn't go crazy. Also Niall says our time in the Fade is only a nap so a whole day hasn't gone by when you clean out the tower.
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Dabrikishaw
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Post by Dabrikishaw on Aug 31, 2016 1:22:37 GMT
It's very easy to roleplay killing Connor if I want to do it. For one, my character couldn't know that the Circle option is viable, or that it would be safe to leave a possessed child alone with no guarantee it wouldn't kill Eamon while I was gone. And that's only in the case were I may have had that character annul the Circle, since then that character wouldn't have that option. When speaking to Jowan, my character could execute him both for his role in the zombie attacks and because he's a Blood Mage, a type of mage my character would already know is extremely dangerous due to fighting them in the Circle.
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Post by capn233 on Aug 31, 2016 1:50:39 GMT
Never actually killed Connor in my runs. Well I did in a solo just to do the fight, then reloaded and sent Jowan into the Fade.
I guess they were covering their options with the Circle Tower business, but then again this isn't the only quest where you get to have a "happy ending" so to speak. I think bringing Zathrien to talk and having him lift the curse is essentially middle ground that mostly works for everyone, as is saving the mages in the tower. Orzammar doesn't give you a compromise solution, and is also notable because it seems like it would be the biggest actual decision you make in the treaty missions (even if it has little effective difference in game).
Anyway if Isolde volunteers it seems like that would probably make the most sense for a resolution. I don't see why most characters would instantaneously kill Jowan in his cell (I usually let him stay in there while I clear the castle). He isn't going anywhere and isn't a threat to anybody.
As far as the traveling goes though, it is worth pointing out that you can leave Redcliffe after Attack at Nightfall and go around the map before going into the castle, so from that standpoint traveling to the Circle isn't all that much different than other parts of this quest, or other quests where you can do portions of it then go somewhere else and do whatever.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2016 23:06:10 GMT
I killed Connor in my Male Aeducan's world... And I mean, I personally killed him...
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DarkKnightHolmes
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Post by DarkKnightHolmes on Sept 7, 2016 20:22:33 GMT
I never pick the Circle option. It just seems too easy and nice for a setting like DAO. Even on my kindest play through, I roleplay as going to the circle in the middle of redcliffe to be too risky.
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Post by Duke Cameron on Sept 19, 2016 19:09:36 GMT
To be fair, i killed Connor because i didn't want to do whatever it was i had to do to keep him alive.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Sept 28, 2016 9:31:22 GMT
While I believe that it makes for a better story with less perfect endings and morally grey, it isn't easy to RP the reasoning in such a choice. In truth, killing Connor is only defensable if Jowan was allowed to escape and the Warden specifically told him "I don't want to see you again". That way the blood ritual option is never presented at all. Otherwise, you simply can't claim that you did what was "necessary". So the Warden doesn't want to risk leaving Redcliffe castle to talk to the mages. That is actually understandable. But then s/he had a readily available alternative option to save Connor (blood ritual) and turned it down because... s/he doesn't like it. That is all there is to it. A petty whim. Refusing both is the least logical way to end the quest. Again? This is the exact same thread that was made over on BSN. So I'll copy and paste the reply I made there... 'To any Warden who's just a regular Ferelden and who left the tower in the hands of the Templars and despises blood magic, killing him is the logical choice. Only a mage would have the knowledge and confidence to try and fix him. A regular Cousland wouldn't even know how to start with any of that. Or a dwarf from Orzammar. Or a city elf. There are many ways to approach the issue. Roleplaying and understanding the origin of your character and who you want them to be can lead you to killing him. It doesn't make them evil. As both Teagan and Alistair say, to them, as normal regular folk, the only way to deal with demon possession is to kill the host. Declaring that 'a petty whim' is quite arrogant. It's merely your opinion. I've killed him twice, saved him twice, and will leave him possessed and do the blood magic ritual once. I can justify those actions for every warden, every time. It fits their narrative.' I'd caught that too. I was going to type out a new reply anyway, but you changed my mind. My last reply: Well; going to the circle might work if your warden was evil or somewhat morally ambiguous. If they don't care "that" much about keeping the civilians alive and the thought of having some nobles indebted to you on that level had some pretty serious pro's. And if your character was confident enough in themselves that they could slay the demon if worst came to worst.....well, it was a risk worth taking. Either the choice is kinda risky. But the villagers still can somehow defend themselves and Isolde and Teagan can keep demonConnor entertained. Imo it's way better to go to the circle to get help than to freaking kill a child. The villagers really can't defend themselves. They get wiped out in your absence. True, your character doesn't know that, but given that you're dealing with an abomination here any Warden with any background knowledge in magic should be able to guess. (This category should include the mage, might include the Dalish Elf since Merrill says the Dalish need to handle abominations themselves and that would be easier if the Dalish PC knew something about them, and probably includes the Human Noble since they'll have been fairly well educated and city-destroying abominations are something that history has.)
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Post by Walter Black on Oct 7, 2016 17:17:47 GMT
I don't mind the Circle option, but it should have been on a timer like when the Collectors snatch your crew in Mass Effect 2. Take too long, and people die . In my ideal version of the the Arl of Redcliffe quest, the only way to get a happy ending would be to achieve the following: 1) Save the village with no or very few casualties. 2) Free Jowan and convince him to help. 4) Make a high Intimidation or Persuasion check when first confronting the Desire Demon. 5) Clear out all undead in the castle, right up until Aemon's bedroom. 6)Console Connor with a high Persuasion check. 7) Leave a party member behind to help deal with Connor when the Demon takes control. Alistair and Wynne would be the best choices. 8) Secure the Mages. Bonus points if you have already completed The Broken Circle, but if you haven't you can still save Connor if you plow through and avoid any side quests. 9) Go straight to Redcliffe Castle, enter the Fade and exorcise the Demon. Once again, if you take too long people will start dying; first Jowan and/or Isolde, then Ser Perth, Murdoch, and the rest of the village. Harsh, but at least this way you would have earned the Mega Happy Ending. Oh well, there's always mods .
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Post by phoray on Oct 7, 2016 23:15:47 GMT
The first time I played, the game told me to go to the Circle and I traipsed off to do so with no thought in my head to the potential fall out.
Second time I played, I still hadn't put much thought into it, but my Cousland pretty much thought she couldn't fail at anything. So, failure was never an idea that would enter her head.
My third time playing, my Warden thought it was a super long shot. She'd told Jowan to leave and never come back cuz they were friends and she wanted him out of the way to safety/freedom. Then she learned the situation upstairs, and Isolde, Alistair, it seems like EVERYONE begs you to go to the Circle. And I'm like... okay. If you guys are willing to risk your own lives and the lives of your knights AND the village down below, then I suppose I could give the Circle a go. But this time, I'd gone to the Circle first, so it really was a straight there and straight back situation. My Warden Surana is very morally grey; in her eyes, all the lives at risk aren't her responsiblity; that responsiblity belongs the leaders of those lives. (Isolde and Bann Teagan) And if the Leaders are willing to take the chance. So, since Surana needs their cooperation for the Blight, she goes ahead and does as they wish. Same with the "ABSURD" request for the Ashes. She went on that trip expecting to come back empty handed but rewarded for trying. She was the most surprised of everyone to actually find life curing ashes.
My husband's dwarf let Isolde sacrifice herself in the blood ritual. She begged him to let her do it. He wasn't going to argue with her; it was her right to do what she felt necessary and he had nothing against blood magic as an act in itself.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2016 1:42:08 GMT
My city elf Darrian Tabris will probably kill Connor out of spite and disgust. Conner going on about cutting off elf ears and evil laughter reminds him a great deal of the ahole who raped his cousin. True, the demon is really doing this, but this could also be how Connor really is. He doesn't trust nobles, particularly noble men enough to give them the benefit of the doubt.
My Revas Surana did the Circle option. She didn't want to kill a child and she had just told Jowan to GTFO.
My Brosca had sacrificed Isold since he really didn't want to leave a demon here, especially since the demon kept saying that he was board.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 27, 2016 22:25:52 GMT
I agree that really they made it too easy to get the ideal ending where everyone lives. If you have done the Broken Circle before going to Redcliffe then it makes more sense that you know you can get help quickly. If you go to Redcliffe first, then you should have heard in Lothering that there are rumours of problems in the Circle, plus you don't know if they are going to agree to help in the way you want. What if the Templars insist on killing Connor when they hear he is possessed? I opted for asking for help from the Circle simply because I baulked at killing a child but wouldn't consider doing a blood magic ritual. However, first run through I did think I was taking a big risk in doing so and that I might come to regret it, particularly when I got to the Circle Tower and found it in chaos. Then it turned out I needn't have worried - no matter how long I took, the demon behaved itself until I got back.
So I think Walter Black is right - it should be possible to achieve this ideal outcome but only if certain conditions are met. Otherwise, if you take too long, people in the Castle and village die.
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Post by oyabun on Dec 29, 2016 6:26:13 GMT
Agree,the circle of magi ruote should have been available only if the player cleaned the tower first.
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Post by oyabun on Dec 29, 2016 8:54:26 GMT
It's ironic that there is a thread discussing whether the writers regretted the "everybody lives" decision in Redcliffe, given that it seems such a reckless course. Well clearly they don't, because the DR is in danger of being the same thing except profoundly and monumentally huge.
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ryderflynn
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Post by ryderflynn on Apr 28, 2017 12:55:15 GMT
My dwarf noble Warden, being raised in that hostile environment, grew up with a bloodlust for violence and carnage. It was something she couldn't help. When it came time to decide what to do with Connor, the absolutely worst possible scenario was forced on her for two reasons:
1. She's a dwarf, a noble at that, so she has no sympathy for mages. The Circle of Tower was the easiest location on the map in terms of level scaling, so it's inevitable I headed there first. Killing the mages/supporting the Templar was more of a pragmatic decision that she didn't entirely make out of her thirst for violence (though it obviously played a part in making said decision), and more out of wanting to contain the possible abominations from escaping.
2. Jowan's fate is the same deal, considering he's a blood mage. Forgiveness and second chances isn't exactly something dwarf nobles are traditionally known for, considering how many died or exiled for simply insulting the wrong house. And so Jowan died, and there was no other alternatives to saving Connor.
To be completely fair, Connor's fate was the turning point for my Warden. After Alistair confronted her angrily, she admitted to not enjoying the whole thing, and she meant it for the first time in her violent life. I mean, killing fellow dwarfs in the noble houses was one thing, but to witness Isolde's loss of her child was kinda traumatic for someone like her, who held her family in somewhat high regards (or at least, just her father alone).
And yes, I agree; it does make for better storytelling in terms of not having a perfect happy ending. She became a stronger person because of her mistakes, I feel, rather than just start out as some Mary Sue incapable of making mistakes.
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Post by mike3207 on Apr 28, 2017 14:13:55 GMT
The first time or two, I killed Connor or his mother(tempting to pick that path just to kill Isolde-lol)
Once I found out you could save both by going to the Circle, I generally picked that path.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 28, 2017 19:33:52 GMT
My dwarf noble Warden, being raised in that hostile environment, grew up with a bloodlust for violence and carnage. It was something she couldn't help. When it came time to decide what to do with Connor, the absolutely worst possible scenario was forced on her for two reasons: 1. She's a dwarf, a noble at that, so she has no sympathy for mages. The Circle of Tower was the easiest location on the map in terms of level scaling, so it's inevitable I headed there first. Killing the mages/supporting the Templar was more of a pragmatic decision that she didn't entirely make out of her thirst for violence (though it obviously played a part in making said decision), and more out of wanting to contain the possible abominations from escaping. 2. Jowan's fate is the same deal, considering he's a blood mage. Forgiveness and second chances isn't exactly something dwarf nobles are traditionally known for, considering how many died or exiled for simply insulting the wrong house. And so Jowan died, and there was no other alternatives to saving Connor. To be completely fair, Connor's fate was the turning point for my Warden. After Alistair confronted her angrily, she admitted to not enjoying the whole thing, and she meant it for the first time in her violent life. I mean, killing fellow dwarfs in the noble houses was one thing, but to witness Isolde's loss of her child was kinda traumatic for someone like her, who held her family in somewhat high regards (or at least, just her father alone). And yes, I agree; it does make for better storytelling in terms of not having a perfect happy ending. She became a stronger person because of her mistakes, I feel, rather than just start out as some Mary Sue incapable of making mistakes. I don't see, why a dwarf would fear from the mages, much more sense that a pious, a little bit dumb Cousland fears the magic, than a Dwarf. Mages and Templars mean simple business partners to the dwarves. The more pragmatic decision would be the mages, because they are great firepower, healing so: more useful partners in the battle, than the Templars, because the Warden can count with excellent dwarf melee fighters. Perhaps s/he can fear from Uldred and the demons, but can see even Wynne ant the mages, who can defend the children when the Templars are helplessness. Both decisions fit a Dwarf noble, but the Mages strong allies, and Gregoir doesn't be enemy, if the Warden saves the Mages. A pious Andrastian Cousland fear from the blood magic, to a dwarf this can be only a tool (Tevinter also a businesspartner of Orzammar), so: s/he can use Jowan to save Connor, because Isolde asks for it. Ofc, he can simply kill him, because this seems easier, and practical. Both decision fit a pragmatic dwarf. Only the Circle version not really, because too slow.
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ryderflynn
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Bioware should just rename itself as "Sophie's Choice"
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Bioware should just rename itself as "Sophie's Choice"
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Post by ryderflynn on Apr 29, 2017 3:49:52 GMT
My dwarf noble Warden, being raised in that hostile environment, grew up with a bloodlust for violence and carnage. It was something she couldn't help. When it came time to decide what to do with Connor, the absolutely worst possible scenario was forced on her for two reasons: 1. She's a dwarf, a noble at that, so she has no sympathy for mages. The Circle of Tower was the easiest location on the map in terms of level scaling, so it's inevitable I headed there first. Killing the mages/supporting the Templar was more of a pragmatic decision that she didn't entirely make out of her thirst for violence (though it obviously played a part in making said decision), and more out of wanting to contain the possible abominations from escaping. 2. Jowan's fate is the same deal, considering he's a blood mage. Forgiveness and second chances isn't exactly something dwarf nobles are traditionally known for, considering how many died or exiled for simply insulting the wrong house. And so Jowan died, and there was no other alternatives to saving Connor. To be completely fair, Connor's fate was the turning point for my Warden. After Alistair confronted her angrily, she admitted to not enjoying the whole thing, and she meant it for the first time in her violent life. I mean, killing fellow dwarfs in the noble houses was one thing, but to witness Isolde's loss of her child was kinda traumatic for someone like her, who held her family in somewhat high regards (or at least, just her father alone). And yes, I agree; it does make for better storytelling in terms of not having a perfect happy ending. She became a stronger person because of her mistakes, I feel, rather than just start out as some Mary Sue incapable of making mistakes. I don't see, why a dwarf would fear from the mages, much more sense that a pious, a little bit dumb Cousland fears the magic, than a Dwarf. Mages and Templars mean simple business partners to the dwarves. The more pragmatic decision would be the mages, because they are great firepower, healing so: more useful partners in the battle, than the Templars, because the Warden can count with excellent dwarf melee fighters. Perhaps s/he can fear from Uldred and the demons, but can see even Wynne ant the mages, who can defend the children when the Templars are helplessness. Both decisions fit a Dwarf noble, but the Mages strong allies, and Gregoir doesn't be enemy, if the Warden saves the Mages. A pious Andrastian Cousland fear from the blood magic, to a dwarf this can be only a tool (Tevinter also a businesspartner of Orzammar), so: s/he can use Jowan to save Connor, because Isolde asks for it. Ofc, he can simply kill him, because this seems easier, and practical. Both decision fit a pragmatic dwarf. Only the Circle version not really, because too slow. It's not fear that dictated the decision, but more out of indifference. To be clear, my Warden is arrogant and would justify a violent decision for a peaceful one if she gets to kill people and create mayhem (a habit she picked up from by "stirring up the nobles" in her origin, I'm afraid). She didn't necessarily fear magic per se, but just simply couldn't care for whether mages lived or died. She's a noble, not a merchant - business had no meaning to her. Being a traditionalist/isolationist like Harrowmont and her father, she had felt a similar indifference towards those "surface dwellers", and couldn't care for the humans' petty magic or mages. All she heard was "Some mages are loose and have the potential to threaten the safety of the community," and she immediately took the convenient decision of saying, "Well, let's kill'em all!" lol But here's the thing - she didn't kill Wynne. In fact, Wynne is now a permanent companion of hers, and having a good relationship too. The reason: she didn't agree to slaughter the mages when Cullen asked her to, though more out of seeing the usefulness Wynne could provide at the time and not wanting to provoke her. So the reason First Enchanter Irving didn't survive was because she intentionally stalled the process of taking down Uldred so that she could have an excuse to slaughter and mages and still keep Wynne around as a companion. Win-win, or I guess, Win-Wynne. lol Now, of course, this was a completely evil choice on my Warden's part, I agree, and it probably couldn't justify her killing Connor. But like I said, she's indifferent to surface dwellers and had no care for some affair she was dragged into, more so when the circumstances being exile and being pitied by human strangers. Just because Duncan saved her at the right time didn't mean she felt eternal gratitude for another species. So when she's asked to make a decision on the affairs of these petty humans, she simply made one out of her own desires for bloodlust and, you could say, convenience. Why should she save the mages? She would much rather have fun. As far as Jowan is concerned, it's almost the same deal. She just wanted to kill somebody, regardless of the situation. "Just die already" was her last words to Jowan. lol Of course, when it came time to kill a child... well, perspectives kinda flipped on her. She couldn't do it, and took the coward way out of asking Isolde to do it instead. You could see it however you want, whether if she's still a child at heart, whether her love for her father gave her a better position to understand the loss of a family member, or if she simply wasn't all that merciless. Regardless, it all came down to being suddenly thrust into the ruthless calculus of choosing to kill a child or allow him to be possessed by a demon. Let's be fair, although it was hinted that Connor might have been possessed by a demon, it was never explicitly stated. Adding on that the Warden was clouded by her bloodlust at the time of killing Jowan, she couldn't have realized what the consequences were at the time, especially because she was ignorant of human magic, and that Jowan might have been able to help reverse Connor's situation (damn Morrigan didn't say a thing either because she probably wanted to see Connor dead, or couldn't give a f***).
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Abraxas
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Vae Victus - suffering to the conquered. Ironic now I was the one suffering.
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
Posts: 158 Likes: 230
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Abraxas
Vae Victus - suffering to the conquered. Ironic now I was the one suffering.
158
May 2017
abraxas
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Abraxas on May 3, 2017 20:22:48 GMT
I killed Connor accidentally on my first playthrough, lol. I remember I feel bad about it but, well... he was to one who attacked me. I left Isolde to kill in the end though, I guess she deserved it.
RP-wise, my Warden took the blame on that. She was just eager to check on Arl Eamon that didn't understand magic enough to not by wary of the demon (she wasn't a close friend with Morrigan and Wynne wasn't in the team yet). This taught her to not underestimate magic or demons again.
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August 2016
catilina
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on May 3, 2017 20:35:34 GMT
I killed Connor accidentally on my first playthrough, lol. I remember I feel bad about it but, well... he was to one who attacked me. I left Isolde to kill in the end though, I guess she deserved it. RP-wise, my Warden took the blame on that. She was just eager to check on Arl Eamon that didn't understand magic enough to not by wary of the demon (she wasn't a close friend with Morrigan and Wynne wasn't in the team yet). This taught her to not underestimate magic or demons again. It happened with me too (Cousland), but this was fine to me. But I think, Isolde doesn't deserve this, she just was frightened. Who is responsible for the mess is Loghain and the Chantry's law.
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Abraxas
N2
Vae Victus - suffering to the conquered. Ironic now I was the one suffering.
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
Posts: 158 Likes: 230
inherit
8171
0
230
Abraxas
Vae Victus - suffering to the conquered. Ironic now I was the one suffering.
158
May 2017
abraxas
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Abraxas on May 3, 2017 20:48:14 GMT
Well, she too was hiding stuff from her husband. I know she wanted her son to be free, but there were other ways for that. It was really a though issue, because in that situation there were many people responsible, not just one person. And as I said, it was just accidental. I was considering Jowan's offer... just wanted to check the Arl, lol
As for Jowan, he was executed by Eamon (poor man).
Alistair wasn't happy, either. But I bought his forgiveness with rare stuff and some gift bones Dante (dog) didn't needed, lol
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inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on May 3, 2017 21:12:47 GMT
Well, she too was hiding stuff from her husband. I know she wanted her son to be free, but there were other ways for that. It was really a though issue, because in that situation there were many people responsible, not just one person. And as I said, it was just accidental. I was considering Jowan's offer... just wanted to check the Arl, lol As for Jowan, he was executed by Eamon (poor man). Alistair wasn't happy, either. But I bought his forgiveness with rare stuff and some gift bones Dante (dog) didn't needed, lol Yes, it was many people fail. Mostly I let Jowan go (Morrigan love this decision and Alistair also persuadable) but happened, that I let him redeem himself, but that was disappointing, that Eamon sent him back to the Circle. Tranquility isn't better than the execution. I have all end of Connor and Isolde.
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