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Post by Salty Drell on Jul 21, 2017 23:48:47 GMT
It's both. It's always both.
Behind every troll is a desperate cry of disapproval about how things currently are. And if both take the form of mindless screeching about PC and Doctor Who being ruined, the difference doesn't much matter, does it?
Someone clearly doesn't understand trolling. Trolling is a form of art. It actually takes patience, self-restraint and the ability to play 4D chess to be a masterful troll. Disclaimer: I'm not a master troll, I'm just your friendly neighbor shitposter. Haha, that's too funny.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 21, 2017 23:49:58 GMT
I read that article Iakus posted, and it looked to me like the writer was merely saying that the level of outrage had been exaggerated, not that the outrage didn't exist at all. "this misogynistic outrage mob...existed mostly in the imaginations of the people mocking it" seems a pretty clear denial of existence to me.
Also, exaggerated how? The Buzzfeed piece that article linked to does give any indication of how many such comments there were. Just "Ha! Look at these idiots."
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Post by Draining Dragon on Jul 21, 2017 23:50:48 GMT
I read that article Iakus posted, and it looked to me like the writer was merely saying that the level of outrage had been exaggerated, not that the outrage didn't exist at all. "this misogynistic outrage mob...existed mostly in the imaginations of the people mocking it" seems a pretty clear denial of existence to me.
Also, exaggerated how? The Buzzfeed piece that article linked to does give any indication of how many such comments there were. Just "Ha! Look at these idiots."
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Post by Lady Artifice on Jul 21, 2017 23:52:41 GMT
Saw it. not outrage, just someone asking a question. A girl actually. In fact, that brings me to another point. Most people who seem to dislike the idea of a female Doctor are other women. But I guess they all just have internalized misogyny, amirite? This is, admittedly, a pretty effective way to try to diminish and condescend to one's opponent in a discussion. If you offer up ludicrous arguments on their behalf, it can serve as a reasonably efficient distraction to deflect their focus elsewhere or occupy them with denying the false implication rather than focusing on the original topic. It's also presumptuous, inconsiderate, and lazy, but still effective.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 21, 2017 23:55:06 GMT
"this misogynistic outrage mob...existed mostly in the imaginations of the people mocking it" seems a pretty clear denial of existence to me.
Also, exaggerated how? The Buzzfeed piece that article linked to does give any indication of how many such comments there were. Just "Ha! Look at these idiots."
"Islamic extremism exists mostly in the imagination of people decrying it."
Would you not call that a denial of Islamic extremism?
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Post by Draining Dragon on Jul 21, 2017 23:56:31 GMT
"Islamic extremism exists mostly in the imagination of people decrying it."
Would you not call that a denial of Islamic extremism?
I would say that's downplaying it rather than denying its existence entirely.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 21, 2017 23:57:56 GMT
Saw it. not outrage, just someone asking a question. A girl actually. In fact, that brings me to another point. Most people who seem to dislike the idea of a female Doctor are other women. But I guess they all just have internalized misogyny, amirite? This is, admittedly, a pretty effective way to try to diminish and condescend to one's opponent in a discussion. If you offer up ludicrous arguments on their behalf, it can serve as a reasonably efficient distraction to deflect their focus elsewhere or occupy them with denying the false implication rather than focusing on the original topic. It's also presumptuous, inconsiderate, and lazy, but still effective. Don't forget to mark off G3 on your Bingo card, Arti.
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Post by Lady Artifice on Jul 21, 2017 23:58:28 GMT
He really does. As ever, his skill with language is admirably succinct and elegant.
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Post by Gaston on Jul 21, 2017 23:59:00 GMT
Saw it. not outrage, just someone asking a question. A girl actually. In fact, that brings me to another point. Most people who seem to dislike the idea of a female Doctor are other women. But I guess they all just have internalized misogyny, amirite? This is, admittedly, a pretty effective way to try to diminish and condescend to one's opponent in a discussion. If you offer up ludicrous arguments on their behalf, it can serve as a reasonably efficient distraction to deflect their focus elsewhere or occupy them with denying the false implication rather than focusing on the original topic. It's also presumptuous, inconsiderate, and lazy, but still effective. Holy shit hahaha, how about you stop pretending you're writing a formal essay, and talk to me in normal English? In other words: What the fuck are you talking about and what is even your point?
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Post by Salty Drell on Jul 22, 2017 0:03:27 GMT
This is, admittedly, a pretty effective way to try to diminish and condescend to one's opponent in a discussion. If you offer up ludicrous arguments on their behalf, it can serve as a reasonably efficient distraction to deflect their focus elsewhere or occupy them with denying the false implication rather than focusing on the original topic. It's also presumptuous, inconsiderate, and lazy, but still effective. Holy shit hahaha, how about you stop pretending you're writing a formal essay, and talk to me in normal English? In other words: What the fuck are you talking about and what is even your point? I guess you're 2Drunk2Read Or you could just look at it a little bit longer than normal, put that little bit of extra effort in.
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Post by Lady Artifice on Jul 22, 2017 0:04:42 GMT
This is, admittedly, a pretty effective way to try to diminish and condescend to one's opponent in a discussion. If you offer up ludicrous arguments on their behalf, it can serve as a reasonably efficient distraction to deflect their focus elsewhere or occupy them with denying the false implication rather than focusing on the original topic. It's also presumptuous, inconsiderate, and lazy, but still effective. Holy shit hahaha, how about you stop pretending you're writing a formal essay, and talk to me in normal English? In other words: What the fuck are you talking about and what is even your point? In other words, DomeWing never made any argument connected to internalized misogyny. He made a very simple statement: "Lots of people are mad." Responding to that statement by sarcastically presenting ideological arguments he didn't make is presumptuous and manipulative.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 22, 2017 0:09:44 GMT
"Islamic extremism exists mostly in the imagination of people decrying it."
Would you not call that a denial of Islamic extremism?
I would say that's downplaying it rather than denying its existence entirely. I guess it's a matter of semantics then. If someone said "only 60 Jews died under the Nazis" I would still call that person a Holocaust denier.
But going by your reading of it then, neither of the statements "this misogynistic outrage mob...existed mostly in the imaginations of the people mocking it" or "Islamic extremism exists mostly in the imagination of people decrying it" can actually be said to be "wrong" since they're both dependent on the vague notion of "mostly." There's no discernible fact being argued. Under my reading, I would be able to say that both are wrong.
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Post by Gaston on Jul 22, 2017 0:14:08 GMT
He really does. As ever, his skill with language is admirably succinct and elegant. I don't think he really does, as he does not seem to grasp the nuance in the sentence he's quoting. There is - of course - a difference between arguing that there is no outrageous lynch mob, and arguing there is no outrage at all. But that of course goes without saying, as I'm sure someone with your caliber of skill in the American-English language, already knows that. Which begs the question; if you and Mr. Dome are indeed not intellectually disadvantaged- why then - are you and Mr. Dome misrepresenting your opponent's casus? If we were to give you and Mr. Dome the benefit of the doubt in your claims of being admirably succinct and elegant, then that leaves us with only one other option. Are you and Mr. Dome, perhaps, doing the very thing you accused me of doing earlier? PS: I tried to sound just as pretentious and snobbish as you here. How well did I do? English is not my native language and I'm inherently not a pretentious snob, quite the opposite in fact, but it was still a fun exercise.
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Post by Lady Artifice on Jul 22, 2017 0:15:03 GMT
This is, admittedly, a pretty effective way to try to diminish and condescend to one's opponent in a discussion. If you offer up ludicrous arguments on their behalf, it can serve as a reasonably efficient distraction to deflect their focus elsewhere or occupy them with denying the false implication rather than focusing on the original topic. It's also presumptuous, inconsiderate, and lazy, but still effective. Indeed. Where have I seen this method used before I wonder? Specifically dismissing arguments by arguing against the morality and motivations of the people making them, and/or misrepresenting the arguments themselves?
From my point of view, most of the regressive / SJW rhetoric is in line with this description.
And that has what to do with me or my post? Are we just throwing out random comparisons or are you accusing me of being one again?
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 22, 2017 0:15:25 GMT
Holy shit hahaha, how about you stop pretending you're writing a formal essay, and talk to me in normal English? In other words: What the fuck are you talking about and what is even your point? In other words, DomeWing never made any argument connected to internalized misogyny. He made a very simple statement: "Lots of people are mad." Responding to that statement by sarcastically presenting ideological arguments he didn't make is presumptuous and manipulative. Hmm...no, still way too eloquent. You're still going to need to dial your vocabulary back a couple more grade levels.
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Draining Dragon
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Post by Draining Dragon on Jul 22, 2017 0:17:48 GMT
I would say that's downplaying it rather than denying its existence entirely. I guess it's a matter of semantics then. If someone said "only 60 Jews died under the Nazis" I would still call that person a Holocaust denier.
But going by your reading of it then, neither of the statements "this misogynistic outrage mob...existed mostly in the imaginations of the people mocking it" or "Islamic extremism exists mostly in the imagination of people decrying it" can actually be said to be "wrong" since they're both dependent on the vague notion of "mostly." There's no discernible fact being argued. Under my reading, I would be able to say that both are wrong.
It's true that the language of the statement is not absolutely precise. Unfortunately, that's a common flaw in human communication, and more discussion would be needed to clarify the exact nature of the argument. What is clear, though, is that "mostly" is not the same as "entirely." The author even brings up examples of the outrage, which would seem to contradict the notion that they are denying its existence.
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Post by Gaston on Jul 22, 2017 0:19:01 GMT
I would say that's downplaying it rather than denying its existence entirely. I guess it's a matter of semantics then. If someone said "only 60 Jews died under the Nazis" I would still call that person a Holocaust denier.
But going by your reading of it then, neither of the statements "this misogynistic outrage mob...existed mostly in the imaginations of the people mocking it" or "Islamic extremism exists mostly in the imagination of people decrying it" can actually be said to be "wrong" since they're both dependent on the vague notion of "mostly." There's no discernible fact being argued. Under my reading, I would be able to say that both are wrong.
The difference of course being, that we know for a fact that 6 million Jews died under Hitler's regime and we also know for a fact that Islamic extremism is a huge problem in Europe and the Middle East. While on the other hand the "misogynistic hate mob" is not a proven fact, merely a a strawman argument from the regressives and feminists.
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Post by Salty Drell on Jul 22, 2017 0:20:04 GMT
He really does. As ever, his skill with language is admirably succinct and elegant. I tried to sound just as pretentious and snobbish as you here. How well did I do? English is not my native language and I'm inherently not a pretentious snob, quite the opposite in fact, but it was still a fun exercise. Don't talk to her like that.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 22, 2017 0:20:19 GMT
I guess it's a matter of semantics then. If someone said "only 60 Jews died under the Nazis" I would still call that person a Holocaust denier.
But going by your reading of it then, neither of the statements "this misogynistic outrage mob...existed mostly in the imaginations of the people mocking it" or "Islamic extremism exists mostly in the imagination of people decrying it" can actually be said to be "wrong" since they're both dependent on the vague notion of "mostly." There's no discernible fact being argued. Under my reading, I would be able to say that both are wrong.
Replacing 6 million with 60 is rather different than what you are equating it to, especially as much of it is based on a certain perception of what it means to be misogynistic, and in many cases is a misrepresentation of the arguments being made. Different in magnitude but not in kind. The point was that diminishment can be the same as denialism.
While there can be discrepancies over what ought to be considered misogynistic, the author did make that claim that it would be very difficult for him to fill out that bingo card. A quick trip to the announcement video proves that false.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 22, 2017 0:24:27 GMT
PS: I tried to sound just as pretentious and snobbish as you here. How well did I do? English is not my native language and I'm inherently not a pretentious snob, quite the opposite in fact, but it was still a fun exercise.
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Post by Gaston on Jul 22, 2017 0:27:43 GMT
PS: I tried to sound just as pretentious and snobbish as you here. How well did I do? English is not my native language and I'm inherently not a pretentious snob, quite the opposite in fact, but it was still a fun exercise. I'm happy with that result tbh. That means I'm not yet at the point where I'll start enjoying the smell of my own farts.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 22, 2017 0:28:50 GMT
I'm happy with that result tbh. That means I'm not yet at the point where I'll start enjoying the smell of my own farts. It must be quite unpleasant for your head to be tucked in there then.
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Post by Lady Artifice on Jul 22, 2017 0:29:44 GMT
He really does. As ever, his skill with language is admirably succinct and elegant. I don't think he really does, as he does not seem to grasp the nuance in the sentence he's quoting. There is - of course - a difference between arguing that there is no outrageous lynch mob, and arguing there is no outrage at all. But that of course goes without saying, as I'm sure someone with your caliber of skill in the American-English language, already knows that. Which begs the question; if you and Mr. Dome are indeed not intellectually disadvantaged- why then - are you and Mr. Dome misrepresenting your opponent's casus? If we were to give you and Mr. Dome the benefit of the doubt in your claims of being admirably succinct and elegant, then that leaves us with only one other option. Are you and Mr. Dome, perhaps, doing the very thing you accused me of doing earlier? PS: I tried to sound just as pretentious and snobbish as you here. How well did I do? English is not my native language and I'm inherently not a pretentious snob, quite the opposite in fact, but it was still a fun exercise. I didn't call myself succinct or elegant. I called him succinct and elegant. I happen to think his skill with English and wit in general outclasses mine by a mile. I'm an indecisive, rambling chatterbox who rewrites my own comments about ten times before I post and then regrets my wording afterwards every single time. I'm the opposite of succinct. As for misrepresenting the article, I haven't read it yet. The person I saw claim that they didn't see any outrage--in particularly emphatic language--was you. Even if we go with your later claim of there being only three or so angry comments, this is still way more insultingly phrased than is warranted.
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Post by Draining Dragon on Jul 22, 2017 0:32:35 GMT
Replacing 6 million with 60 is rather different than what you are equating it to, especially as much of it is based on a certain perception of what it means to be misogynistic, and in many cases is a misrepresentation of the arguments being made. Different in magnitude but not in kind. The point was that diminishment can be the same as denialism.
The crucial point that I'm trying to drive home here is that diminishing the prevalence of a certain behavior is not the same as categorically denying the existence of that behavior. The most obvious difference is that the latter can be disproven with a single anecdotal example, while a claim along the lines of the former cannot.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 22, 2017 0:34:45 GMT
Different in magnitude but not in kind. The point was that diminishment can be the same as denialism.
While there can be discrepancies over what ought to be considered misogynistic, the author did make that claim that it would be very difficult for him to fill out that bingo card. A quick trip to the announcement video proves that false.
The difference, as I see it, is most definitely in kind. There's no real way to bridge between the kind of ideology that claims that "everything is racist, everything is sexist, and you need to point it all out", to what a heretic like me calls misogyny.
So making claims about it without really clarifying what you are referring to, is useless.
Are there actual misogynists out there? Sure, but I don't recognize blame by association, especially when someone clarifies that they disagree.
But the author did give us an indication of what he was referring to by saying "misogyny." The examples in the Buzzfeed articles of "misogynist man-babies" are no different than what many of the Youtube comments said. So regardless of how you define misogyny, he and I are talking about the same thing.
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