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Post by fenris on Mar 7, 2017 10:34:04 GMT
So I've noticed something - Fenris is the only companion that has his own, actual theme (I think). Since the moment you see him, he has his own theme that plays in the background whenever you have a conversation with him. It seems to me that he is specifically signaled, and I think that is part of the reason I like his romance so much (I even used the theme as the theme for a love interest NPC in one of my D&D games ) So anyway, why do you think that is?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 14:01:04 GMT
So I've noticed something - Fenris is the only companion that has his own, actual theme (I think). Since the moment you see him, he has his own theme that plays in the background whenever you have a conversation with him. It seems to me that he is specifically signaled, and I think that is part of the reason I like his romance so much (I even used the theme as the theme for a love interest NPC in one of my D&D games :D ) So anyway, why do you think that is? Cut development time. Most likely every companion was supposed to have one, but only Fenris' was intergrated. I for one was disappointed with Fenris' content petering out in Act 3. Unlike Anders who was story important, Fenris was just there in the end. I did pick up on the vibe of Anders vs Fenris being a major conflict in the game, but I felt that the Fenris part was left out, and has a feeling that maybe initially there was an option to side with Fenris against Anders and the Mages to thwart Anders' plotting. That duality sort of picks up where Bethany/Carver leaves off, and it is strong throughout the game, but yes, I feel that Fenris did not have his story arc and plot importance intergrated in Act 3 as they have planned. Neither did Isabela and Meril impressed me it's their plot roles, though I have never seen Isabela's. Varric and Aveline seemed to have their development finished and well set-up in their respective place in Hawke-verse.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 7, 2017 15:03:06 GMT
So I've noticed something - Fenris is the only companion that has his own, actual theme (I think). Since the moment you see him, he has his own theme that plays in the background whenever you have a conversation with him. It seems to me that he is specifically signaled, and I think that is part of the reason I like his romance so much (I even used the theme as the theme for a love interest NPC in one of my D&D games ) So anyway, why do you think that is? Cut development time. Most likely every companion was supposed to have one, but only Fenris' was intergrated. I for one was disappointed with Fenris' content petering out in Act 3. Unlike Anders who was story important, Fenris was just there in the end. I did pick up on the vibe of Anders vs Fenris being a major conflict in the game, but I felt that the Fenris part was left out, and has a feeling that maybe initially there was an option to side with Fenris against Anders and the Mages to thwart Anders' plotting. That duality sort of picks up where Bethany/Carver leaves off, and it is strong throughout the game, but yes, I feel that Fenris did not have his story arc and plot importance intergrated in Act 3 as they have planned. Neither did Isabela and Meril impressed me it's their plot roles, though I have never seen Isabela's. Varric and Aveline seemed to have their development finished and well set-up in their respective place in Hawke-verse. I think he's Anders' opposite at first sight. Yes, just first sight, because he isn't professed anti-mage, this is not some principle for him, only fear, what understandable, but he can accept hard-line pro mage Hawke (I speak about friendship now, because this is easily possible, true, less believable), while Anders can't accept pro-templar Hawke in normal state (friendship), only if Hawke totally crushes his soul (rivalry). If Hawke care about Fenris, Fenris happily support the mages, true, he need very high approval for it. Anders will leave Hawke, if s/he finally decides that will support the Templars. No matter, how high his friendship/love, if Hawke didn't crushed him, if Hawke crushed him, he will die slowly, or commit suicide (the last kiss suggest this). So: Fenris is Anders' opposite, in many aspects, but not really. Seems the writers forced it, but as I see, this isn't obligatory. Fenris much more open minded, than he shows first. He just needs a friend (this possibly also in rivalry, because the rivalry doesn't crush him). The story's (tragic) hero is clearly Anders. Fenris only counterpoint. A very good counterpoint.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 15:09:18 GMT
I think he's Anders' opposite at first sight. Yes, just first sight, because he isn't professed anti-mage, this is not some principle for him, only fear, what understandable, but he can accept hard-line pro mage Hawke, while Anders can't accept pro-templar Hawke in normal state (friendship), only if Hawke totally crushes his soul (rivalry). If Hawke care about Fenris, Fenris happily support the mages, true, he need very high approval for it. Anders will leave Hawke, if s/he finally decides that will support the Templars. No matter, how high his friendship/love, if Hawke didn't crushed him, if Hawke crushed him, he will die slowly, or commit suicide (the last kiss suggest this). So: Fenris is Anders' opposite, in many aspects, but not really. Seems the writers forced it, but as I see, this isn't obligatory. Fenris much more open minded, than he shows first. He just needs a friend (this possibly also in rivalry, because the rivalry doesn't crush him). The story's (tragic) hero is clearly Anders. As it is right now, yes, I agree. But I have a feeling that the original design might have been more polarizing for Fenris and Anders. As of now, with Fenris sort of making his peace indeed with a pro-mage Hawke, the game lacks a strong, compelling anti-mage character, that stays true to that agenda and influences Hawke to his PoV. And Fenris history with the Magisters makes him an obvious candidate to support a Hawke that wants the staus quo preserved. Right now the biggest weakness of the game is that it does not make a compelling enough case to want to contain the mages, despite the variety of evil mages paraded in front of the PC. It's all destroyed by the appeal to personal freedom that wins a player immediately. The whole "Fenris, love, you are wrong, you gotta understand my way more open-minded/attractive position" just feels unfinished and not strong enough. That's why I was wondering if initially, the game was having a two different endings, where either Anders or Fenris won, and there was an option to stop Anders, maybe at the expense of losing Fenris, maybe make Anders into a martyr, that would made Orsino and Mages rebel and blow up the Chantry, which, in turn, caused the mage's rebellion. Right now, Act 3 is very linear with too few choices in that sequence. So, yes, I wonder if Fenris was supposed to be a full plot-integrated antithesis to Anders. Just as compelling, just as sexy and just as tragic. But no less compelling in presenting his side of the argument. They want to make us all Tranquil and oppress all mages! You want to make them all Magisters who will oppress all non-mages! This conflict is made less interesting by one side clearly having a stronger advocate and far too easy identifiable "right" side. I agree with the OP that Fenris feels like a larger than life character, so him being so overshadowed in Act 3, and so amenable, feels odd.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 7, 2017 17:14:05 GMT
I think he's Anders' opposite at first sight. Yes, just first sight, because he isn't professed anti-mage, this is not some principle for him, only fear, what understandable, but he can accept hard-line pro mage Hawke, while Anders can't accept pro-templar Hawke in normal state (friendship), only if Hawke totally crushes his soul (rivalry). If Hawke care about Fenris, Fenris happily support the mages, true, he need very high approval for it. Anders will leave Hawke, if s/he finally decides that will support the Templars. No matter, how high his friendship/love, if Hawke didn't crushed him, if Hawke crushed him, he will die slowly, or commit suicide (the last kiss suggest this). So: Fenris is Anders' opposite, in many aspects, but not really. Seems the writers forced it, but as I see, this isn't obligatory. Fenris much more open minded, than he shows first. He just needs a friend (this possibly also in rivalry, because the rivalry doesn't crush him). The story's (tragic) hero is clearly Anders. As it is right now, yes, I agree. But I have a feeling that the original design might have been more polarizing for Fenris and Anders. As of now, with Fenris sort of making his peace indeed with a pro-mage Hawke, the game lacks a strong, compelling anti-mage character, that stays true to that agenda and influences Hawke to his PoV. And Fenris history with the Magisters makes him an obvious candidate to support a Hawke that wants the staus quo preserved. Right now the biggest weakness of the game is that it does not make a compelling enough case to want to contain the mages, despite the variety of evil mages paraded in front of the PC. It's all destroyed by the appeal to personal freedom that wins a player immediately. The whole "Fenris, love, you are wrong, you gotta understand my way more open-minded/attractive position" just feels unfinished and not strong enough. That's why I was wondering if initially, the game was having a two different endings, where either Anders or Fenris won, and there was an option to stop Anders, maybe at the expense of losing Fenris, maybe make Anders into a martyr, that would made Orsino and Mages rebel and blow up the Chantry, which, in turn, caused the mage's rebellion. Right now, Act 3 is very linear with too few choices in that sequence. So, yes, I wonder if Fenris was supposed to be a full plot-integrated antithesis to Anders. Just as compelling, just as sexy and just as tragic. But no less compelling in presenting his side of the argument. They want to make us all Tranquil and oppress all mages! You want to make them all Magisters who will oppress all non-mages! This conflict is made less interesting by one side clearly having a stronger advocate and far too easy identifiable "right" side. I agree with the OP that Fenris feels like a larger than life character, so him being so overshadowed in Act 3, and so amenable, feels odd. It's possible, but I don't think that this has been the original plan. Fenris afraid from the mages, but accustomed their presence. He likes, that in Southern Thedas the mages are closed in the Towers, but he only a little time spent here to grow this feeling to political conviction/faith, to a cause, what for he should fight and worth die. His purpose in this time is the life, not the heroic sacrifice for vague goals that are not his. He just wants to live finally freely. Why he able to fight against his friends if Hawke didn't care about him enough? Because he disappointed. In this situation he supports the system, what he see as safe for him. And because he didn't see any logical reason to support the wo/man, who don't care about him, who is NOT his friend. Why he able to support a radical pro-mage Hawke? Because s/he is his friend (even in rivalry). S/He is the person, whom he always could count on, and in whom he can trust unconditionally. Of course he capable of fighting on his/her side for anything. It would be illogical if he would leaving is his only friend in whom he can trust. He is fighting for his friend(s). And his own freedom. This is why Fenris never could be Anders' real opposite. This would be simple illogical, because his past and his goal. But: as I said, the writers tried to force this conflict, calculated by if anyone who love Fenris, would hate Anders, because of poor elf boy, who tortured by mages. But Fenris was not tortured by "mages", he was tortured by slaveholders, by his master, in fact. They trying to strengthen the feeling with Anders' jealousy and rude reactions. (It did not work on me. I know Anders is not perfect, nor even Fenris.)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 17:50:49 GMT
Fenris is not just a poor boy tortured by his Master. His story showcases a systematic abuse of power that leads to corruption. Dorian makes his case even clearer, coming from the high echelon, and having the front row seat. While he does express the acute desire for personal happiness, it’s not the sole cause of his self-imposed exile. Once “magic must serve people” becomes a reason to seize the reins of power, mages become an upper class, and magic – a meal ticket to positions of power. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Fenris entire family is destroyed by magic. His sister, perfectly aware of his fate, is willing to dismiss it for the pursuit of power. Fenris is a victim of the system that is constructed for the sole benefit of Dorians. Fenris and his sister are not exceptional, Dorian is.
Red lyrium, the demons, by the sound of it (and where I am in the game) only amplify what I think is the idea that magic is not a benign talent, like singing, it does inspire the drive for power that takes many forms, and maybe it does require someone keeping things real for a mage. Anders argues that it is within the abilities of each sensible being to not be corrupted and avoid temptations, but we do not see many successful examples, just like we do not see many successful examples of ethical humans in power.
Without that dilemma, imo the game becomes too simplistic of a glorification of the western idolization and idealization of extreme individualism and personal freedom. The eastern search of fulfilment through belonging, duty and life of virtue got lost in telling. Anders echoes Raskol’nikoff’s path from someone you can easily empathize with to a complete wretched end when he tries to assert his right to a dignified living.
Anyway, enough ranting What Fenris could have been, we simply do not know. What he is, is a Lyrium Ghost and one hell of a gorgeous love interest.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 7, 2017 18:57:56 GMT
Fenris is not just a poor boy tortured by his Master. His story showcases a systematic abuse of power that leads to corruption. Dorian makes his case even clearer, coming from the high echelon, and having the front row seat. While he does express the acute desire for personal happiness, it’s not the sole cause of his self-imposed exile. Once “magic must serve people” becomes a reason to seize the reins of power, mages become an upper class, and magic – a meal ticket to positions of power. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Fenris entire family is destroyed by magic. His sister, perfectly aware of his fate, is willing to dismiss it for the pursuit of power. Fenris is a victim of the system that is constructed for the sole benefit of Dorians. Fenris and his sister are not exceptional, Dorian is. Red lyrium, the demons, by the sound of it (and where I am in the game) only amplify what I think is the idea that magic is not a benign talent, like singing, it does inspire the drive for power that takes many forms, and maybe it does require someone keeping things real for a mage. Anders argues that it is within the abilities of each sensible being to not be corrupted and avoid temptations, but we do not see many successful examples, just like we do not see many successful examples of ethical humans in power. Without that dilemma, imo the game becomes too simplistic of a glorification of the western idolization and idealization of extreme individualism and personal freedom. The eastern search of fulfilment through belonging, duty and life of virtue got lost in telling. Anders echoes Raskol’nikoff’s path from someone you can easily empathize with to a complete wretched end when he tries to assert his right to a dignified living. Anyway, enough ranting What Fenris could have been, we simply do not know. What he is, is a Lyrium Ghost and one hell of a gorgeous love interest. Yes, Fenris isn't only a poor tortured boy (it was sarcasm). He had chosen his fate, always. He's a very positive character. First, when he wanted to free his family at the cost of his own freedom, second when he ran away from Danarius and finally faced with him, third, when he decide to follow his friend/lover, anywhere, or left him/her, if s/he don't worth it, of his own free will. He's story about the freedom and the free will. Plus about the survival, healing and releasing the past for a chance of a new beginning. And yes, his life show the abuse of power. But Anders' (and the mages') fate as well. The whole story of the Circle-system about the abuse of power, and Tevinter's story as well. Meredith's fate show that NOBODY's safe from the temptation of power. So you're right, we saw only few (no one?) example to avoid the temptations. The story isn't about the magic' danger, rather about the danger of the temptations. Anders only wants life, just as Fenris. Anders wants order and law, he hates the abuses of power, even if a mage do it. Anders is an idealist, yes. He prefers the free will. I like the western ideology. Fenris isn't too different. As I said: the free will also important to him, and the freedom too. In Inquisition Varric told, that Fenris works for the freedom of the slaves. It is much easier to sacrifice yourself if you know why you do (free will). When Fenris lost his memory, and later experienced, what is the freedom, he didn't want to be a slave anymore. But interesting question: Fenris would be capable of accepting if the Templars arrest Hawke? And would be able to support Meredith's annulment?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 20:47:35 GMT
But Anders is seduced by the power of magic as well. To defend his ability to use his magic as he will (in his case for healing), he starts his own power play, his own grab for a different structure in the society, by fermenting a mages' uprising. His power of a healer is so strong that for a few minutes he can reverse Tranquility. He does not chose to research that or a way to restore personhood and emotional intelligence to a mage that surrenders magic power, instead, he starts a holy war to be able to preserve his power.
There are after all few things as seductive as the temptation to be a savior and to self-sacrifice in the name of a greater good. That's Anders' temptation and he falls to it, seduced by magic and his own personal demon.
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Post by Gilli on Mar 7, 2017 21:11:20 GMT
But Anders is seduced by the power of magic as well. To defend his ability to use his magic as he will (in his case for healing), he starts his own power play, his own grab for a different structure in the society, by fermenting a mages' uprising. His power of a healer is so strong that for a few minutes he can reverse Tranquility. He does not chose to research that or a way to restore personhood and emotional intelligence to a mage that surrenders magic power, instead, he starts a holy war to be able to preserve his power. There are after all few things as seductive as the temptation to be a savior and to self-sacrifice in the name of a greater good. That's Anders' temptation and he falls to it, seduced by magic and his own personal demon. That is because of Justice's presence in Anders. Without Justice it would not have worked. To heal a Tranquil, the Tranquil has to be touched by a Spirit. DAI spoiler just in case (regarding Cassandra) Just like Cassandra got touched by a Spirit of Faith in her Vigil to become a Seeker.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 7, 2017 21:31:49 GMT
But Anders is seduced by the power of magic as well. To defend his ability to use his magic as he will (in his case for healing), he starts his own power play, his own grab for a different structure in the society, by fermenting a mages' uprising. His power of a healer is so strong that for a few minutes he can reverse Tranquility. He does not chose to research that or a way to restore personhood and emotional intelligence to a mage that surrenders magic power, instead, he starts a holy war to be able to preserve his power. There are after all few things as seductive as the temptation to be a savior and to self-sacrifice in the name of a greater good. That's Anders' temptation and he falls to it, seduced by magic and his own personal demon. He can't cure the Tranquility, this isn't a spirit healer ability. Justice's closeness brought back Karl's connection to the Fade, temporarily, because Anders can't "call" Justice easily, he said that in the Act1. Justice came out if Anders lost the control over himself. You blame Anders, that the people in Thedas can't cure the Tranquility? Who would his guinea pig? Hawke? Or Bethany? Or himself? And how? Anders don't know the method of the Tranquility, and the nature of Tranquility, this is a secret of the Chantry, of the Seeker. Anders only a mage. Strong mage, but not extremely strong. And he know only few things about the nature of the Fade and the spirits. The Chantry (Circles) don't teach too much about this. Also Justice. He's a Fade-spirit, but not a Fade-scientist. He lived in the Fade, but not researched the Fade's nature. When he abused his power? Never. Yes, we can say, that the temptation was, that he can work for the freedom of mages. And he did. He lied to Hawke because couldn't trusted him/her (I think, he never trusted in anyone), and he lied him/her, because seems that's an easy and safe way to fulfill his goal. Yes, we can say, this also a temptation. No one is free from temptation. On the other hand: also temptation a peaceful life. He spoke about, that sometimes he miss the selfishness and drunkenness. I never told, that he's perfect, and he never yielded to temptation. When he offered his body to Justice, on the one hand was help, on the other hand was a chance, that he will able to help his fellow mages. Yes, this was a temptation. But he didn't expected more magical power, he rather expected more spiritual strength and focus on his goal.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 21:51:28 GMT
Both his own aptitude and his cohabitation with Justice, results in hoarding magic powers. The same way (in Dorian’s words) a mage of any standing has dealings with demons and blood of the non-acquiescing participants.
Anders does yield to temptation. The way our moral compass works is that self-sacrifice is perceived as a virtuous act, while sacrificing another is viewed as a corrupt act. He starts a war of retribution in the name of power. Anders falls to the temptation to become a savior of the downtrodden.
Anders is a beautiful character, and I love it to bits, but he is seduced by magic.
And that is why, imo, the game would have benefited of a character of equal appeal and complexity, the same moral ambiguity, and ability to win a player’s sympathy to the opposing cause – aka magic users need not be tormented, but still held accountable by a benevolent authority.
Right now the game does not have a central dilemma.
I would have preferred it was as difficult to choose the side throughout the Dragon Age as it was hard to choose which of the two men is more appealing romantically.
Hence, imo, the game could have used more Fenris.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 7, 2017 22:42:37 GMT
Both his own aptitude and his cohabitation with Justice, results in hoarding magic powers. The same way (in Dorian’s words) a mage of any standing has dealings with demons and blood of the non-acquiescing participants. Anders does yield to temptation. The way our moral compass works is that self-sacrifice is perceived as a virtuous act, while sacrificing another is viewed as a corrupt act. He starts a war of retribution in the name of power. Anders falls to the temptation to become a savior of the downtrodden. Anders is a beautiful character, and I love it to bits, but he is seduced by magic. And that is why, imo, the game would have benefited of a character of equal appeal and complexity, the same moral ambiguity, and ability to win a player’s sympathy to the opposing cause – aka magic users need not be tormented, but still held accountable by a benevolent authority. Right now the game does not have a central dilemma. I would have preferred it was as difficult to choose the side throughout the Dragon Age as it was hard to choose which of the two men is more appealing romantically. Hence, imo, the game could have used more Fenris. I still do not feel that Anders yield to the temptation for more magical power. He wanted strength for working for freedom, not for rules over people; he never abused his magical power. Yes, I accepted your opinion, that this also a temptation: gather courage with Justice's help. What means: "he start a war of retribution in the name of power"? As I see, this isn't retribution (okay, not totally free from retribution), this is a war against 1000 years oppression and unjust. "In the name of power"? I don't understand this. I think, in the name of normal life for everyone. Not for power. Or? Probably I misunderstood you. Fenris is a great character and a great LI, true, need patience for a fulfilled love with him. He similar as Anders in many viewpoints, but more restrained (this is understandable). But he's not the main hero (Anders), he is the counterpoint of the main hero. It's always difficult to choose between this two, and I'm happy, that Fenris isn't Anders in the Templar's side, because if the rivalry would crush him (as crush Anders), and if in friendship he would refuse to support mages, I probably never, or only once would romance him, because I only once sided with Templars, and only at the end, for Carver, but this was very uncomfortable to me, and illogical. 1. The Annulment's bad. 2. The Kirkwall's Circle is dangerous for mages, so: I can't send into the Circle anyone except Idunna (the blood mage in the Blooming Rose, but she is criminal, deserved the jail.) 3. Meredith's the biggest threat to Kirkwall, even without the metaknowledge. But you're right, probably would better, if the Templar side would be not clearly wrong. So: I'm glad, that Fenris is available to me, with happy endings.
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Post by fenris on Mar 8, 2017 11:34:43 GMT
This is kinda not what the post is about The post is about whether or not the game pushes the player to romance/befriend Fenris above other companions
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2017 12:08:16 GMT
This is kinda not what the post is about :P The post is about whether or not the game pushes the player to romance/befriend Fenris above other companions :D Then the answer is "no". Imo, the game is absolutely top-notch perfect in making it nearly impossible to chose between Anders and Fenris if you are into men. I hope that folks that prefer the company of women have the same dilemma in picking between Merrill or Isabele. The stuff the good games are made of. :) The only game where I had the same feeling of "omg, omg, could the males be any dreamier?!" Was kotor2 with Anton, Bao and Disciple. And by golly, I want more games like that, heh. It's a riveting experience.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 8, 2017 12:10:22 GMT
Oh, I see. My first choice was Anders, Fenris didn't catch me at first sight, but now: both. Befriend or "be-rival"... yes, this is strongly forced, if player want to support the mages, and I want to do this, and don't want to lose Fenris, in fact, I don't want to lose anyone, but Sebastian leave, so, fuck Sebastian with 100% friendship... True, I can understand him at the moment.
I never lost Fenris, and only once left the group for a while, but Hawke was able to convince him. That's interesting: at the end, he accepts, that mages are slaves in Kirkwall, and with this argument working on him. But need at least ~80.85% friendship for the trust. I didn't risks to lose him in rivalry. I don't know, there are chance to convince him. So: Fenris high approval is yes important because he's a great character/LI, but for example, I never supported the Templars because of him.
This is why Fenris high friendship/rivalry is very important, but he's the best LI? For me: he's one of the best in the whole series (the other is Anders), but so many people prefer Isabela or Merrill. So: let's be objective: Fenris does not appeal to everyone. Many people consider him annoying. (Just as Isabela, Merrill and especially Anders.) Perhaps difficult at first to see how complex character is he, for some people.
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Jan 20, 2017 10:05:58 GMT
January 2017
adrianbc
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by adrianbc on Mar 8, 2017 13:17:03 GMT
This is just well said. Bioware simply "mutated" the main dilemma from DA2 about mages with the "help" of Red lyrium and Justice. It would have been quite a different game with Fenris a real opponent of Anders from the other side of the mage problem - the Tevinter side. And both Meredith and Anders acting on their own and only will, not "pushed" by external aid. The way DA2 unfolds, one can say that Meredith was reasonable but forced into an insane path by the influence of the Red Lyrium; and Anders would have never acted as such without Justice pushing him. And all three main actors - Anders, Fenris, and Meredith have only a self-centered and mostly a simplistic view of a complex problem. Anders sees unlimited freedom for mages as the only needed change. Fenris view all mages as potential magisters and slavers. And Meredith only as future abominations; her main question is not IF but WHEN. All three viewpoints are limited and thus incomplete and wrong. We can also talk about unlimited freedom in case of Cailan at Ostagar, and we know the outcome. He acted as he wanted, listened to nobody. And got what he wanted: fighting alongside the Grey Wardens against the darkspawn. And a "little" extra: almost dooming Ferelden. You are right. Anders and Meredith are both partisans of extreme opposing views: unlimited freedom vs unlimited imprisonment. A better developed Fenris would have been key allowing more depth concerning the mage problem. I`m not talking about some sort of balance, but an understanding of both freedom and responsibility. Imagine an evolving Fenris who becomes capable of developing a more complex understanding about mages, having experienced their fate in both Tevinter and Kirkwall. Instead, Bioware filled DA2 with anecdotal experience - a parade of emotional cases of misconduct from both mages and templars.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 8, 2017 14:26:29 GMT
This is just well said. Bioware simply "mutated" the main dilemma from DA2 about mages with the "help" of Red lyrium and Justice. It would have been quite a different game with Fenris a real opponent of Anders from the other side of the mage problem - the Tevinter side. And both Meredith and Anders acting on their own and only will, not "pushed" by external aid. The way DA2 unfolds, one can say that Meredith was reasonable but forced into an insane path by the influence of the Red Lyrium; and Anders would have never acted as such without Justice pushing him. And all three main actors - Anders, Fenris, and Meredith have only a self-centered and mostly a simplistic view of a complex problem. Anders sees unlimited freedom for mages as the only needed change. Fenris view all mages as potential magisters and slavers. And Meredith only as future abominations; her main question is not IF but WHEN. All three viewpoints are limited and thus incomplete and wrong. We can also talk about unlimited freedom in case of Cailan at Ostagar, and we know the outcome. He acted as he wanted, listened to nobody. And got what he wanted: fighting alongside the Grey Wardens against the darkspawn. And a "little" extra: almost dooming Ferelden. You are right. Anders and Meredith are both partisans of extreme opposing views: unlimited freedom vs unlimited imprisonment. A better developed Fenris would have been key allowing more depth concerning the mage problem. I`m not talking about some sort of balance, but an understanding of both freedom and responsibility. Imagine an evolving Fenris who becomes capable of developing a more complex understanding about mages, having experienced their fate in both Tevinter and Kirkwall. Instead, Bioware filled DA2 with anecdotal experience - a parade of emotional cases of misconduct from both mages and templars. Neither Anders nor Fenris not so simple. Anders accepts the responsibility of the power: he hates if the mages abused their power, and he recognizes the importance of education, and that the Circle's good on this. True, at the moment he rather cares about the freedom. At the finish, at Gallows Hawke can convince Fenris with the slave-parallel, so Fenris able to see the situation of mages very well. At this point Fenris more open-minded, Anders, because of his past and his experience in Kirkwall, only see the mages' problems, and at the moment able to ignore the Abominations or blame the Circle-system for the Abominations. You're right, without Justice, Anders would never capable of such an act, rather leave Kirkwall as quickly as he can, or, never would came in Kirkwall. Also true, that Justice's black and white spirit-perspective has a great influence on Anders' thinking, but let's imagine Awakening-Anders in Kirkwall without Justice's influence: he would be able to justify the Templars? Clearly not. Not for a minute! (Of course, this is an exaggeration, even in DA2 Anders' faith faltered several times: for example after Leandra's death, and in Legacy as well.) Very interesting discuss when Anders speak to Hawke (jealousy) about his/her LI (Justice quest). Fenris: "He has let one bad experience color his whole world. Surely you want someone more open-minded?" He speaks about himself, Not Fenris. Merrill: "...she’ll never choose you over her demon". He speaks about himself, again. He speaks about his doubts. Fenris is Anders counterpoint in many aspect: he fear from magic, but more open-minded than Anders, despite his past (true, his past is in Tevinter, in the moment he can't acting against the slavery, I think, this is important thing). His personality is developing positively as time goes by and leave the past behind so at the end he able to support the mages. BUT: let's imagine, that in Tevinter he would be able to support the magisters for Hawke's friendship? NO. In Tevinter he would leave Hawke same way as Anders in Kirkwall if Hawke supports the Templars. (Yes, I know, the slaves are not mages, but Anders seems mages as slaves.)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2017 14:29:41 GMT
This is just well said. :) Bioware simply "mutated" the main dilemma from DA2 about mages with the "help" of Red lyrium and Justice. It would have been quite a different game with Fenris a real opponent of Anders from the other side of the mage problem - the Tevinter side. And both Meredith and Anders acting on their own and only will, not "pushed" by external aid. The way DA2 unfolds, one can say that Meredith was reasonable but forced into an insane path by the influence of the Red Lyrium; and Anders would have never acted as such without Justice pushing him. And all three main actors - Anders, Fenris, and Meredith have only a self-centered and mostly a simplistic view of a complex problem. Anders sees unlimited freedom for mages as the only needed change. Fenris view all mages as potential magisters and slavers. And Meredith only as future abominations; her main question is not IF but WHEN. All three viewpoints are limited and thus incomplete and wrong. We can also talk about unlimited freedom in case of Cailan at Ostagar, and we know the outcome. He acted as he wanted, listened to nobody. And got what he wanted: fighting alongside the Grey Wardens against the darkspawn. And a "little" extra: almost dooming Ferelden. You are right. Anders and Meredith are both partisans of extreme opposing views: unlimited freedom vs unlimited imprisonment. A better developed Fenris would have been key allowing more depth concerning the mage problem. I`m not talking about some sort of balance, but an understanding of both freedom and responsibility. Imagine an evolving Fenris who becomes capable of developing a more complex understanding about mages, having experienced their fate in both Tevinter and Kirkwall. Instead, Bioware filled DA2 with anecdotal experience - a parade of emotional cases of misconduct from both mages and templars. Anders' real opponent is Dorian, rather than Fenris. Dorian has everything Anders have ever wanted and fought to grab, and more. And he does not even have to stretch out his hand to take it. It is there, he's earned it already, or was born into it. And he walks away, and not for the sake of anything incredibly promising, like a larger than life draw of freedom or true love. He is very continue at how conforming in both his personal and professional life will erode him. Through the school of hard knocks (which he does not talk about much, but you can glimpse it in his selling the family amulet, and trying to find a position with Alexus) he manages, incredibly to keep his moral compass unerringly set on common good. Both Anders and Fenris are the oppressed, trying to better their lot in life. Dorian is the incredibly, over the top privileged, refusing his golden lot in life. When he says that mages not being held accountable, and Templar supervision/serving the people reduced to sham is wrong, that's the strongest argument of it all. He stands to gain nothing and lose more than any other character in the game from sticking to his convictions.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 8, 2017 14:51:39 GMT
This is just well said. Bioware simply "mutated" the main dilemma from DA2 about mages with the "help" of Red lyrium and Justice. It would have been quite a different game with Fenris a real opponent of Anders from the other side of the mage problem - the Tevinter side. And both Meredith and Anders acting on their own and only will, not "pushed" by external aid. The way DA2 unfolds, one can say that Meredith was reasonable but forced into an insane path by the influence of the Red Lyrium; and Anders would have never acted as such without Justice pushing him. And all three main actors - Anders, Fenris, and Meredith have only a self-centered and mostly a simplistic view of a complex problem. Anders sees unlimited freedom for mages as the only needed change. Fenris view all mages as potential magisters and slavers. And Meredith only as future abominations; her main question is not IF but WHEN. All three viewpoints are limited and thus incomplete and wrong. We can also talk about unlimited freedom in case of Cailan at Ostagar, and we know the outcome. He acted as he wanted, listened to nobody. And got what he wanted: fighting alongside the Grey Wardens against the darkspawn. And a "little" extra: almost dooming Ferelden. You are right. Anders and Meredith are both partisans of extreme opposing views: unlimited freedom vs unlimited imprisonment. A better developed Fenris would have been key allowing more depth concerning the mage problem. I`m not talking about some sort of balance, but an understanding of both freedom and responsibility. Imagine an evolving Fenris who becomes capable of developing a more complex understanding about mages, having experienced their fate in both Tevinter and Kirkwall. Instead, Bioware filled DA2 with anecdotal experience - a parade of emotional cases of misconduct from both mages and templars. Anders' real opponent is Dorian, rather than Fenris. Dorian has everything Anders have ever wanted and fought to grab, and more. And he does not even have to stretch out his hand to take it. It is there, he's earned it already, or was born into it. And he walks away, and not for the sake of anything incredibly promising, like a larger than life draw of freedom or true love. He is very continue at how conforming in both his personal and professional life will erode him. Through the school of hard knocks (which he does not talk about much, but you can glimpse it in his selling the family amulet, and trying to find a position with Alexus) he manages, incredibly to keep his moral compass unerringly set on common good. Both Anders and Fenris are the oppressed, trying to better their lot in life. Dorian is the incredibly, over the top privileged, refusing his golden lot in life. When he says that mages not being held accountable, and Templar supervision/serving the people reduced to sham is wrong, that's the strongest argument of it all. He stands to gain nothing and lose more than any other character in the game from sticking to his convictions. Dorian has nothing to do with Anders. The Inquisition completely different story than DA2.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2017 14:57:30 GMT
Anders' real opponent is Dorian, rather than Fenris. Dorian has everything Anders have ever wanted and fought to grab, and more. And he does not even have to stretch out his hand to take it. It is there, he's earned it already, or was born into it. And he walks away, and not for the sake of anything incredibly promising, like a larger than life draw of freedom or true love. He is very continue at how conforming in both his personal and professional life will erode him. Through the school of hard knocks (which he does not talk about much, but you can glimpse it in his selling the family amulet, and trying to find a position with Alexus) he manages, incredibly to keep his moral compass unerringly set on common good. Both Anders and Fenris are the oppressed, trying to better their lot in life. Dorian is the incredibly, over the top privileged, refusing his golden lot in life. When he says that mages not being held accountable, and Templar supervision/serving the people reduced to sham is wrong, that's the strongest argument of it all. He stands to gain nothing and lose more than any other character in the game from sticking to his convictions. Dorian has nothing to do with Anders. The Inquisition completely different story than DA2. The way I see DA games they are a collection of PoVs rotating largely around one essential philosophical dilemma (ethical nature of magic and magic users) unfolding against the background of the growing conflict attempting to resolve this dilemma. Dorian's PoV is an almost direct commentary on Anders'. It's similar to how MET largely revolves around the ethical dilemma of personhood and AI, against the background of a growing conflict to resolve that dilemma.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 8, 2017 15:03:12 GMT
Dorian has nothing to do with Anders. The Inquisition completely different story than DA2. The way I see DA games they are a collection of PoVs rotating largely around one essential philosophical dilemma (ethical nature of magic and magic users) unfolding against the background of the growing conflict attempting to resolve this dilemma. Dorian's PoV is an almost direct commentary on Anders'. It's similar to how MET largely revolves around the ethical dilemma of personhood and AI, against the background of a growing conflict to resolve that dilemma. In a world where he can free to use his ability, in fact, privileged because of his ability.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2017 15:06:22 GMT
The way I see DA games they are a collection of PoVs rotating largely around one essential philosophical dilemma (ethical nature of magic and magic users) unfolding against the background of the growing conflict attempting to resolve this dilemma. Dorian's PoV is an almost direct commentary on Anders'. It's similar to how MET largely revolves around the ethical dilemma of personhood and AI, against the background of a growing conflict to resolve that dilemma. In a world where he can free to use his ability, in fact, privileged because of his ability. Yes, that's exactly what I've pointed out.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 8, 2017 15:10:48 GMT
And? Why Dorian's better than Anders? I don't understand. Except, that he didn't blow up some nice building.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2017 15:35:02 GMT
And? Why Dorian's better than Anders? I don't understand. Except, that he didn't blow up some nice building. I did not say “better than”. I said he has a stronger argument than Fenris, precisely because he comes from a privileged background, and because he says what he has is wrong for him to have. Anders has nothing to lose, everything to gain by standing by his convictions. His actions are completely logical, and, should he survive, and should his side win, he stands to benefit directly along with others). Dorians’ views do not benefit him; him following his convictions greatly disadvantages him in every tangible way. He is also flawlessly fair throughout the whole game, exhibiting zero bias towards any faction and any loyalty, but to the common good. Dorian is virtuous to the point of incredulity. Anyway, that’s not what the OP is after, and I don’t really think it’s all that great to flood the forums with the constructs I build around the video-games. It is enough insight in my private lonely world of extending interactions with the imaginary friends.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 8, 2017 15:52:57 GMT
And? Why Dorian's better than Anders? I don't understand. Except, that he didn't blow up some nice building. I did not say “better than”. I said he has a stronger argument than Fenris, precisely because he comes from a privileged background, and because he says what he has is wrong for him to have. Anders has nothing to lose, everything to gain by standing by his convictions. His actions are completely logical, and, should he survive, and should his side win, he stands to benefit directly along with others). Dorians’ views do not benefit him; him following his convictions greatly disadvantages him in every tangible way. He is also flawlessly fair throughout the whole game, exhibiting zero bias towards any faction and any loyalty, but to the common good. Dorian is virtuous to the point of incredulity. Anyway, that’s not what the OP is after, and I don’t really think it’s all that great to flood the forums with the constructs I build around the video-games. It is enough insight in my private lonely world of extending interactions with the imaginary friends. Oh, I see, sorry for my impatience. So: Dorian fled of the blood magic because his father wanted to change him with blood magic. He prefers his mind, over his heritage, this is understandable. And yes, he didn't was able to imagine a forced marriage. This is not his belief, his conviction, this is his nature. As I see. Yes, he's helping to Inquisition was noble. Anders has to lose his life. (And if in love with Hawke, he has to lose a very good, noble life, and perhaps his love).
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