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Post by bardox on Aug 19, 2016 5:30:53 GMT
So I am in the midst of a DA series playthrough. I'm coming up on the end of DA2 and so my attention turns towards DA:I and the type of Inquisitor I will make. The fate of the Wardens is one of those that I fight myself on every time I come to it. As I tend to project myself into my PC's, things like this are particularly gut wrenching for me.
The wardens at the templar were all in Warden Mage gear, so it's assumed that they have all done the ritual and been bound to Corypheus' will. Blame the Wardens for the Divine's death or not, they had no control over their actions at that point. Everything leading up to that point though is squarely on their shoulders.
Turning to a Magister's blood magic and demons. The plan to kill their own people, the weak and the old, to summon a demonic horde of their own to lead a suicidal march into the Deeps. Those bouts of stupidity are all theirs. BUT put into context, these actions make a certain type of sense. They thought they were all dying. It's a warped and depressing logic, but it's not beyond the pale all things considered. Not that the Chantry or the faithful will care about that.
The Wardens are a beloved band of cursed misfits that protect the world from the blight "by any means necessary". Among them you will find everything from brave knights to merciless cut throats. Healers and scholars to brutes and destroyers. They taint themselves and spend the rest of their lives hunting down monsters till the day they die. They are needed to ends Blights. They are a good thing in theory, but whenever they show up, things are anything but good. In DA:I we do not have a Blight. We have a Magister of old that can, at the very least, influence Grey Wardens. At worst, control them completely. While it is unknown to your Inquisitor at the time, the Wardens are also Corypheus' vessels for rebirth. Every Warden mage is suspect. The rank and file soldiers could be useful, but the Inquisition already has soldiers. And mages. Men and women who are not tainted walking around with a death wish. You don't need the Wardens.
At best, the Wardens would be a political nightmare as a part of the Inquisition. Word will spread about their involvement at the Temple. When that happens, no place in southern Thedas will be a welcome place for them. They will be seen as the Divine's murders. The destroyers of Andraste's holy resting place.
I hate it, but exile.. for the time being... is the best among nothing but bad options. For the Wardens and for everyone else. They can work on redemption later.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 19, 2016 9:19:00 GMT
SPOILERS AHEAD IF YOU HAVEN'T COMPLETED THE GAME
One of the problems with the Wardens in DAI is the amount of influence Corypheus has over the whole order not just the mages. Also their lack of care over his prison. They had clearly established in the past that he was dangerous. I found it hard to understand how they hadn't guarded him better and when his prison was breached, didn't immediately go on red alert, because knowing everything they do about archdemon regeneration, the activities of the Architect and the difficulty in killing him before, they should at least have considered he might not be dead. The idea that they were all hearing the Calling so should immediately head off into the Deep Roads on a suicide mission also lacked any degree of sense. Demons are only controlled while the person is alive. So all the Wardens needed to stay alive in order to get their demon army anywhere near the archdemon, plus kill it, because only a Warden can do this successfully. If it were that simple, surely they would have thought of doing this before? The Wardens have always known the location of the archdemons, they just can't get to them. Increasing their numbers by one demon per warden would not be sufficient to overcome the large numbers of darkspawn they would encounter on route, particularly since the shortness of the 5th Blight means that darkspawn numbers are likely not to have been greatly affected overall.
The logical response to hearing the Calling is to recruit more Grey Wardens. If the new recruits immediately started hearing the Calling, then you would think people would realise something was wrong. Common sense flew out of the window on this plotline. Apparently only one Grey Warden in the entirety of southern Thedas thought that may be things weren't what they seemed. I find that hard to believe. If it was only confined to the Wardens in Orlais and Ferelden, then it should have been fairly easy to establish that fact by appealing to Wardens in other nations. When you confront Clarel, she is apparently aware of the existence of Corypheus, yet it never occurred to her he might be involved.
Corypheus seemed to me to be given too much power over the Wardens. Morrigan claimed there was no limit to the area over which he could regenerate, so in theory no matter where the Wardens were sent in Thedas, he could have jumped to them in that place. This, of course, makes exile pointless from a safety point of view. Of course, Morrigan only tells you this near the end, whereas you have to make the decision about them earlier than this. Once you accept there is no limit to his range, then it actually makes more sense to keep them under the leadership of the Inquisition, since the people commanding them are not tainted and therefore free of Corypheus. If a Warden seems to be acting strange, they can be removed from active service. Basically it makes it easier to keep an eye on them. Send them off to another part of Thedas and they could still be a threat over which you have no control.
The game doesn't frame the decision like this though. So you are led to believe it would be better to exile them, as you say, on a temporary basis. Apparently though that is not how it is viewed. Once gone, that is it and the Wardens go into decline across Thedas. Yet, the other things you say about the culpability for the death of the Divine apply equally if you keep them with the Inquisition. If you do this, though, there seems to be no backlash against the Wardens, at least those who were part of the Inquisition. If you keep the Wardens they never turn against you, so the argument in favour of turning them away seems superfluous. In game, there are no negatives to keeping the Wardens, only positives. All the negative outcomes apply to exiling them. Once I realised this, I stopped doing so because I found it annoying that role playing from a common sense and realistic point of view is punished by the writers. Plus if the Inquisition had such influence that anyone associated with them is forgiven anything, no matter what they have done, then why is it so easy to get rid of the Inquisition? If you want to leave the world unprotected against the various dangers that are out there, and which the rulers and nobles hardly seemed bothered about dealing with, then disband the Templars, tell Cassandra not to reform the Seekers, exile the Wardens and disband the Inquistion. Realistically that should leave everyone in big s**t but plotlines being what they are, everything seems to function just fine.
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Post by ddj on Aug 19, 2016 13:46:31 GMT
With respect to all, I have never been overly enamoured of the Wardens needed or not. True they make the claim that only they can stop the Blights, except of course in the Fifth Blight of DAO you have the dark ritual bit which I always complete since it is going to happen no matter what. So in theory anyone could kill the archdemon as long as the ritual is completed properly. Apparently that "save the world" philosophy only applies to archdemons and blights since they have no problem summoning demon armies - two that we know of - killing their own comrades etc. Having served tours the idea that my commander would willfully poison me so that there is no "retirement" is something that most soldiers would not smile benevolently upon. Of course BW ignores the obvious. When a GW is wounded so badly he can no longer fight although he can survive, what do the GW do with him? So, in my world I boot them. They can return under adult supervision, but they pose a threat to the Inquisition due to the proximity of Corypheus and the Venatorii. Still gervaise 21 makes very valid points and while I am not enamoured of them, keeping them may be the wisest choice - if they are kept under heavy guard and supervision.
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Post by HYR on Aug 19, 2016 15:33:06 GMT
Exile. After the BS that went down at Adamant, they need to be sent home and clean-house.... ... not unlike another group of people right now whom are also associated with the color blue.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 19, 2016 15:33:38 GMT
To be honest I could never understand why the Wardens needed to perform the joining ritual between Blights. Success rate seems around 50%, which is a huge wastage of manpower for very little gain. All the Joining does between Blights is help you sense darkspawn (but they can also sense you) and give you a degree of immunity to the taint. Still, if you succumb to the taint, you can still take the ritual to potentially keep you alive. If you fail the Joining then nothing is lost, since you were going to die from the taint anyway (or turn into a ghoul). So long as the order ensure people are aware of the need for the Joining when a Blight starts, that to me makes far more sense. You get more potential recruits, there is less wastage among them and you cut down on the amount of archdemon blood that is being used when not needed.
The number of people down the years who have been needlessly subjected to the Joining beggars belief. Hundreds of recruits must have died at that point. Others had their lives foreshortened by the Calling. So a lack of common sense among the Wardens is nothing new really among the leadership. It has been going on for hundreds of years.
Also Solas had a point in saying that having come up with the Joining as a way of killing archdemons, no one seems to have considered any alternatives. The dwarf in the Descent had the right idea. Rather than aiming to kill archdemons, what the Wardens should be doing is seeking out the broodmothers and destroying them. Without broodmothers there will be no darkspawn. Also make it known across Thedas, if you are a woman and you are captured, for Maker's sake kill yourself.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2016 7:51:13 GMT
Ally because it's a waste sending them away
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Post by patches on Aug 20, 2016 8:43:06 GMT
With respect to all, I have never been overly enamoured of the Wardens needed or not. True they make the claim that only they can stop the Blights, except of course in the Fifth Blight of DAO you have the dark ritual bit which I always complete since it is going to happen no matter what.I'm not sure I understand what you mean here, the Old God Baby only happens if you agree to do the dark ritual if you don't then one of the wardens die when killing the Archdemon.
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Post by Zemgus on Aug 20, 2016 9:12:15 GMT
Exile. This was the hardest decision I have had to make in DA series. My canon Inquisitor was originally going to ally with them, because I imagine her as someone who usually gives everyone a second chance. What changed my mind was not their use of blood magic (that's completely fine by me) and summoning demons but their insane plan to find and kill the remaining Old Gods. I already killed the Architect in Awakening for planning something similar. The darkspawn are mindless creatures, slaves to the calling of the Old Gods and if the Grey Warden's were going to purposefully try to find them then that makes them no better than the darkspawn (and there are evidence that this is not the first time they have attempted something like this). Who are they to do something like this? What gives them the right? As Solas stated their foolish attempt would likely only end up releasing something far worse than a blight upon the world. So they have to be stopped and that's why I exiled them. I realized the only reason why I didn't want to exile them was because of my Warden-Commander Surana, but then I remembered how he never wanted to become a Grey Warden in the first place and how little love he had for the Order, so that made the decision much easier.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Aug 20, 2016 16:27:47 GMT
People questioning why Wardens are needed outside of blights need to remember that there is no knowledge of when blights begin. It was 400 years between the 4th and 5th blights. Should the wardens have disbanded during those 400 years? Also, darkspawn raids still exist. Heck, the Anderfels have to deal with darkspawn raids constantly. Whether you like it or not, darkspawn are still a threat and blights could happen anytime so wardens need to be ready
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Post by Zemgus on Aug 20, 2016 19:41:13 GMT
People questioning why Wardens are needed outside of blights need to remember that there is no knowledge of when blights begin. It was 400 years between the 4th and 5th blights. Should the wardens have disbanded during those 400 years? Also, darkspawn raids still exist. Heck, the Anderfels have to deal with darkspawn raids constantly. Whether you like it or not, darkspawn are still a threat and blights could happen anytime so wardens need to be ready There is no real need to keep Wardens when there are no Blights. It's waste of life and only creates more darkspawn (when the female Wardens who hear the Calling go to the Deep Roads and become Broodmothers). Wardens should share their 'secret' of how to kill Arcdemon with everyone, it should be common knowledge, so when a Blight happens Grey Warden warriors can be created to kill the Archdemon.
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bardox
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Post by bardox on Aug 20, 2016 22:05:00 GMT
Wardens are always needed. The Darkspawn Horde never stops building up their numbers. When a blight begins, They emerge in full force. It may only take one Warden to end the Blight, but (as is mentioned in DA:O) there is compelling reason to have as many wardens as possible. The Odds of a single Warden making it through the Horde is virtually zero. That our Warden makes it through is practically a miracle in itself.
Without Wardens, there would be no warning what so ever of a Blight until the Horde was already marching on the surface. They don't just fight the Darkspawn, they watch them. Better than anyone else ever could. They are the Vanguard. Until the final Old God is slain, the Grey Wardens will be needed. In peace, Vigilance.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 21, 2016 7:42:13 GMT
There is no reason why the order cannot still exist without taking the Joining. That was my point. Surely the ideal of the Warden is that they are an independent organisation dedicated to protecting others from the darkspawn. You can be vigilant between Blights without taking the Joining. Since the population at large are not aware of the Joining ritual, no one is going to think it odd if they do not undergo it. You sign up to the Wardens in order to dedicate your life to them and if you do not take the Joining then you can serve them for that much longer. As the dwarves point out, there are always darkspawn that they have to deal with on a daily basis. The first indication of a Blight is when the dwarves find that they are not under such pressure.
However, apart from those undertaking the Calling, the Wardens do not seem to be that active underground between Blights. That responsibility seems to be left to the Legion of the Dead, who are effectively dwarven wardens without the Joining. They are dedicated to protection their homeland from the darkspawn. A good communication system between the Deep Roads and the surface should be sufficient to monitor darkspawn activity, with possibly a handful of people per generation who take the Joining and so are able to monitor the movements of the archdemon. So long as it stays in one place there is no Blight; if it starts moving then a Blight is imminent.
Strangely enough, though, considering there have always been Wardens around, alerting people to an imminent Blight before the darkspawn surface does not seem to be something they have been able to do. All the Blights subsequent to the first one seems to have come as a surprise when the darkspawn surfaced in large numbers. In the fifth Blight it would seem that sensing the movement of the archdemon must have been what convinced Duncan it was a true Blight. However, he did not seem aware it had not yet surfaced, otherwise it was hard to explain why he committed his entire Grey Warden army bar two, on the front line thus putting them at risk of being wiped out before the archdemon even made an appearance.
By the way, I don't think the fate of female Wardens is to become broodmothers. That would really be self defeating. Since being a warden is meant to make you infertile (except in special cases) I don't think female wardens can reproduce whether normal children or darkspawn. The dwarves who became broodmothers from Branka's clan were just normal women who were violated by the darkspawn. The Wardens are well aware now about broodmothers, so if there was the slightest risk of female wardens becoming them, just do not recruit women. Of all the secrets of the Wardens, the knowledge of how broodmothers come to be created is the one that should be most widely known by the general population. Never, ever let yourself be taken alive if you are a women.
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Post by Zemgus on Aug 21, 2016 9:13:57 GMT
By the way, I don't think the fate of female Wardens is to become broodmothers. That would really be self defeating. Since being a warden is meant to make you infertile (except in special cases) I don't think female wardens can reproduce whether normal children or darkspawn. The dwarves who became broodmothers from Branka's clan were just normal women who were violated by the darkspawn. The Wardens are well aware now about broodmothers, so if there was the slightest risk of female wardens becoming them, just do not recruit women. Of all the secrets of the Wardens, the knowledge of how broodmothers come to be created is the one that should be most widely known by the general population. Never, ever let yourself be taken alive if you are a women. You might be right. If female Wardens could become broodmothers there would be no sense to sending them to Deep Roads when they begin to hear the Calling.
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Post by ddj on Aug 25, 2016 22:23:15 GMT
With respect to all, I have never been overly enamoured of the Wardens needed or not. True they make the claim that only they can stop the Blights, except of course in the Fifth Blight of DAO you have the dark ritual bit which I always complete since it is going to happen no matter what.I'm not sure I understand what you mean here, the Old God Baby only happens if you agree to do the dark ritual if you don't then one of the wardens die when killing the Archdemon. So do the ritual. DAO and DAI make it clear the ritual is complete no matter what you decide. But now that you bring it up, how is it that Riordan knows darkspawn are empty soulless creatures anyway? How does anyone know that? It begs the question of just how much the Wardens do know and how much they pretend to know. Given that the Wardens are an organization cloaked in secrecy enforced by violence, I am now wondering just how many dark secrets they really are keeping.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Aug 26, 2016 0:58:10 GMT
I'm not sure I understand what you mean here, the Old God Baby only happens if you agree to do the dark ritual if you don't then one of the wardens die when killing the Archdemon. So do the ritual. DAO and DAI make it clear the ritual is complete no matter what you decide. But now that you bring it up, how is it that Riordan knows darkspawn are empty soulless creatures anyway? How does anyone know that? It begs the question of just how much the Wardens do know and how much they pretend to know. Given that the Wardens are an organization cloaked in secrecy enforced by violence, I am now wondering just how many dark secrets they really are keeping. Actually, the ritual never happens if you don't do it. Where are you even getting that it happens regardless
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Post by KaiserShep on Aug 26, 2016 2:35:24 GMT
So in theory anyone could kill the archdemon as long as the ritual is completed properly. Only if that person is a Warden. The blighted blood is necessary for the ritual to work.
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