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Post by N7Pathfinder on Mar 19, 2017 19:50:16 GMT
Three episodes into Iron Fist, the latest in Marvel's Netflix shows, and I don't necessarily think Iron Fist is as terrible as I heard people say on the internet. I guess there are three things to note so far:
1. In regards to claim of Marvel whitewashing, people seem to forget that Iron Fist was always a white American man named Danny Rand in the comics. This I feel is an example of people just finding something to be offended by since Iron Fist is a kung-fu fighter, which stereotypically implies Asian. I hate this kind of whitewashing claim that people make when they don't do proper research or understand the circumstances. A brilliant example I remeber were people going nuts over Jake Gyllenhal as the Prince of Persia. Yes, he wasn't Persian, but neither was the Prince in the video game the movie was based off of. The voice was very clearly British, and the movie even tried giving Gyllenhal a British accent (a very bad one, but still one). I mean, just play the game or watch footage of it on Youtube and you'll understand what I'm talking about!
2. The first real problem I noticed is that the series is really taking a long time to get started, the fighting isn't lit well enough for me to fully enjoy it, and we don't even see the actual Iron Fist until the end of episode 2, and even then it wasn't that impressive. I guess when compared to other series, they did some ballsy or shocking things in the first episodes that got you hooked. This one not so much.
3. The villain is also not that great. He's not badly written, but he doesn't do anything that leaves an impression. Wilson Fisk decapitated someone for being embarrassed in a date, Kilgrave forced a girl to kill her parents, Cottonmouth beat someone to death. The only memorable thing this guy did that was kind of intimidating was breaking into Danny's hospital room and creepily talking to him. Not really memorable, though it's possible he's not the main villain. I just hope it's a reverse Luke Cage thing (which had an awesome villain the first half, but a mediocre one the second).
Some good things though. It's still nicely made, Finn Jones plays his role pretty well, I like the much more mysterious vibe of the theme music, the writing's good, acting decent, and Colleen Wing so far is pretty cool!
Overall, just from these three episodes, I would give Iron Fist a C-. Points for looking and sounding nice, but loses some for being kind of boring (which to me is the ultimate sin of any entertainment).
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Post by mybudgee on Mar 19, 2017 20:42:49 GMT
It has nothing to with race/"white-washing" and everything to do with the writers not giving a fuck
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Post by LightningPoodle on Mar 19, 2017 20:55:25 GMT
I just finished watching it today.
I would give it a C+. It starts of well but I started to get a little bored after around episode 8. I still enjoyed it though.
Yeah, the reviews (the bad ones anyway) focus on the main character being white as the problem. In the comics, Danny Rand (Iron Fist) is a white American. Marvel have done the right thing, instead of making him Asian to conform to some stereotype.
I don't get it. In this day and age, it seems only the Asian stereotype is the one that people don't want to see change.
As for the rest of the show, I couldn't tell who the main villain was. It feels like this series is a filler one, which will only come into its own when Netflix release The Defenders which will likely be them (Daredevil, Luke Cage, Jessica Jones and Iron Fist) facing The Hand.
It's not a bad watch by any means. It's not as good as say, Daredevil, but it's still an alright watch.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2017 21:24:16 GMT
I just finished watching it today. I would give it a C+. It starts of well but I started to get a little bored after around episode 8. I still enjoyed it though. Yeah, the reviews (the bad ones anyway) focus on the main character being white as the problem. In the comics, Danny Rand (Iron Fist) is a white American. Marvel have done the right thing, instead of making him Asian to conform to some stereotype. I don't get it. In this day and age, it seems only the Asian stereotype is the one that people don't want to see change. As for the rest of the show, I couldn't tell who the main villain was. It feels like this series is a filler one, which will only come into its own when Netflix release The Defenders which will likely be them (Daredevil, Luke Cage, Jessica Jones and Iron Fist) facing The Hand. It's not a bad watch by any means. It's not as good as say, Daredevil, but it's still an alright watch. Ditto. Did a binge watch high and drinking beer since Friday night. Finished earlier today. (Life is good.) It was alright, not terrible, but with what the show could've done, I felt they didn't work it out as well as they should've. Almost felt like someone up high was under some time constraints and hit "fuckit". But I'm biased that way. >.> <.< *** One of the larger problems with the show I found was a lack of a particularly good enemy. Kill facegrave, and Kingpin both were wonderful villains played well and to their part (IMHO). I loved every scene with Madam Gao, that kept me going. Really didn't gaf about the business end of things nor their stories.
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Post by o Ventus on Mar 19, 2017 22:41:56 GMT
I just finished watching it today. I would give it a C+. It starts of well but I started to get a little bored after around episode 8. I still enjoyed it though. Yeah, the reviews (the bad ones anyway) focus on the main character being white as the problem. In the comics, Danny Rand (Iron Fist) is a white American. Marvel have done the right thing, instead of making him Asian to conform to some stereotype. I don't get it. In this day and age, it seems only the Asian stereotype is the one that people don't want to see change. As for the rest of the show, I couldn't tell who the main villain was. It feels like this series is a filler one, which will only come into its own when Netflix release The Defenders which will likely be them (Daredevil, Luke Cage, Jessica Jones and Iron Fist) facing The Hand. It's not a bad watch by any means. It's not as good as say, Daredevil, but it's still an alright watch. The villain is Harold Meachum for roughly the first half until the Hand come into play, then Madame Gao takes over as the villain. Then Harold returns and takes over again as villain for the last episode . My biggest gripe with the series so far is they've kind of squandered some of the Iron Fist mythos. There's pretty much nothing about Danny's time in K'un-L'un other than his anecdotes, no depiction of his battle with Shou-Lao, no prior interaction between Danny and Davos (and no real indicator that I noticed that he is the Steel Serpent like he is in the comic). Bizarrely, the Bride of Nine Spiders is a one-off Hand mook in the series instead of a named character who is one of the Immortal Weapons, along with Danny (assuming she is not coincidentally just some random Hand mook who happens to be themed around spiders, but I don't think that's the case), and if she IS the Bride of Nine Spiders, she doesn't used her powers (her body is host to thousands and thousands of spiders that she can control and uses to attack her enemies). They could delve deeper into this in the second season, sure, but since Iron Fist is a relatively obscure Marvel character (compared to the Avengers or Daredevil), one would think they'd go more into his backstory similarly to how they did Jessica Jones and Luke Cage.
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Post by jaison1986 on Mar 19, 2017 22:51:07 GMT
I also have a feeling Iron fist might not be doing so well because marvel is taking too many risks making so many series based on characters with relatively low popularity. Daredevil is quite a popular Marvel hero, but Jessica, Luke and Iron Fist are all pretty low key in comparision. In my opinion, they should have tried bigger names for their Netflix series, like Blade and Ghostrider.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2017 16:14:36 GMT
I binged the series on the first day of release. Thoughts: SPOILERS OBVIOUSLY + Finn Jones was nearly perfectly cast. I just wished he got a bit more ripped. Charlie Cox sculpted himself to be Matt Murdoch. Kunlun was described and presented well. The effects for the Iron Fist were cool. Coleen Wing was mostly well done. Started off very strong. I love the Meachum family. Very complex relationships. David f'n Wenham. Damn good in every scene. Leaves you wanting more. The Hand will be fun to watch in Defenders. The vibe of the fight scenes has some very subtle shouts to the Shaw Brothers. - Not enough action. The pacing is fine but this show was supposed to exceed Daredevil in fight scenes. The choreography was a bit sloppy. Could have used more tightening with some stunts. This isn't the true Iron Fist. The whole season he struggles to even use it and you only get to see just how powerful it is in the last episode before the final fight. It'd be equal to Daredevil getting his ass kicked while struggling to control his senses. You don't get the real Daredevil. Claire's incessant babbling about not killing. Are you fucking kidding me? I'm starting to hate her character. That mentality only works for Daredevil because of his strong Catholic upbringing. I'm sick of it being as its very unrealistic to spare leaders of The Hand with how deep their infiltration and influence is. Would not care if she died tbh. Again they toned down the Iron Fist greatly. This man is supposed to be second to none in pure hand to hand. He gets hit way too much and against nobodies at that. Danny Rand was far too naive. He was going around telling folks in New York about Kunlun as if it wouldn't get him tossed into an asylum. Glad that didn't last long. Overall I'd give it a 7/10. It was interesting but came off as standing right below the summit of a mountain and struggling to climb that last rock to reach it. I hope in Defenders he's not holding back or unsure of himself. I want more action and cleaner fight scenes like Daredevil has. DD still reigns supreme in terms of consistency in acting and choreography. It's far more believable than all the other series other than Jessica Jones which also had stellar acting. Damn I'm disappointed as I was hoping and expecting this one to take the cake in terms of fights.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 20, 2017 16:17:51 GMT
I've only watched the first four episodes so far, but I'm liking it just fine.
It's a bit of a slow burn, but all the series started out that way.
Fight scenes aren't on par with Daredevil, but they get the job done.
Colleen Wing is great and a real bad*ss
I like the whole theme of Danny's search for identity and his place in the world, as Danny Rand and as the Iron Fist.
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Post by ScumbagShepurd on Mar 20, 2017 23:16:32 GMT
It starts okay but it becomes a mess quickly. Same for Faramir. Really strong beginning but then he's either overacting as fuck or writers just fucked up the character. The way Harold acts towards Joy and Danny ("meloves ya, mebelieves in ya, me and my heart of gold, we gon be family")-- it just screams 'liar'. How come neither Joy nor Danny are seeing it?
The writers just can't put their shit together. For instance, now we know that Gao leads some rebellious part of the Hand and the rest of the Hand hates her and tries to destroy her. Then how the fuck did Gao and Nobu (who belonged to the main part of the Hand) worked together in the Daredevil?
Fights are kinda okay yet not great, definitely worse than Daredevil's. Still, it's the best part of the show, along with Meachums. Ward is the most interesting of them, kudos to his actor.
And every villain here is just a joke. I remember Fisk, I remember Killgrave, I will forget about Gao or Bakuto or Harold in a week. Daredevil and Jessica Jones seem to be the best shows in the Netflix-Marvel universe so far.
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Post by OdanUrr on Mar 20, 2017 23:40:18 GMT
Only about 2 episodes in. About the same as Arrow S1 so far.
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Post by ScumbagShepurd on Mar 21, 2017 0:31:47 GMT
Oh forgot about Rosario Dawson's char. The actress is great, one of the most underrated actresses of our time, love her. But why does her character have to be involved in every fokin superhero activity in NYC? It's really not that necessary. Is this her superpower, showing up in the most fucked up places and situations in the city, helping hobo looking superheroes?
In that case, me leg hurt, and since I look like a hobo and my name is Shepurd and my avatar is Sandal-- i.e. two greatest superheroes of all time-- she is OBLIGATED to show up and patch me up.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2017 2:12:19 GMT
Oh forgot about Rosario Dawson's char. The actress is great, one of the most underrated actresses of our time, love her. But why does her character have to be involved in every fokin superhero activity in NYC? It's really not that necessary. Is this her superpower, showing up in the most fucked up places and situations in the city, helping hobo looking superheroes? In that case, me leg hurt, and since I look like a hobo and my name is Shepurd and my avatar is Sandal-- i.e. two greatest superheroes of all time-- she is OBLIGATED to show up and patch me up. She's based on the Night Nurse, a character who patches up superheros in New York like Spidey and Moon Knight among others. Marvel's using her to tie each character together as the centerpiece for them meeting. DD and Iron Fist know of The Hand but Luke and JJ don't as their villains and arcs are more personal and centered around themselves.
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Post by mybudgee on Mar 21, 2017 4:29:01 GMT
"I firmly believe that a story is only as good as the villain. A great antagonist makes the entire cast better." - Clive Barker
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Post by o Ventus on Mar 21, 2017 12:57:48 GMT
Oh forgot about Rosario Dawson's char. The actress is great, one of the most underrated actresses of our time, love her. But why does her character have to be involved in every fokin superhero activity in NYC? It's really not that necessary. Is this her superpower, showing up in the most fucked up places and situations in the city, helping hobo looking superheroes? In that case, me leg hurt, and since I look like a hobo and my name is Shepurd and my avatar is Sandal-- i.e. two greatest superheroes of all time-- she is OBLIGATED to show up and patch me up. She's based on the Night Nurse, a character who patches up superheros in New York like Spidey and Moon Knight among others. Marvel's using her to tie each character together as the centerpiece for them meeting. DD and Iron Fist know of The Hand but Luke and JJ don't as their villains and arcs are more personal and centered around themselves. Indeed, in Luke Cage, one of the mooks outright calls her Night Nurse as a one-off nickname. Though I have to wonder, if Claire does eventually start calling herself Night Nurse... Why did Netflix decide to use Claire Temple for the part? In the comic at least, Claire was never the Night Nurse. The most famous Night Nurse is Linda Carter. Claire IS a comic character who is a doctor, but she's not the Night Nurse. She's also mostly affiliated with Luke Cage, so IMO it would have made more sense to start with Linda in the Daredevil series and introduce Claire in the Luke Cage series and have them both work as doctors. It's a relatively minor change since nobody knows who the fuck Linda Carter or the Night Nurse are, but then again nobody knew who the fuck Claire Temple was before these shows either, so this change seems really arbitrary. Like having Thor be Spider-Man instead of Thor.
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Post by o Ventus on Mar 21, 2017 15:38:18 GMT
One other thing that kinda bothers me is that they made Danny pretty weak and shitty compared to his comic counterpart. Comic Danny would stomp TV Danny into the dirt with his little toe. They did this with Daredevil too, but it's less noticeable and more acceptable with him because he doesn't have magic powers unlike Danny, and the fight choreography for Daredevil is better IMO. Comic Daredevil and Danny are THE top hand-to-hand fighters in the Marvel multiverse (for reference, Comic Danny kicked a SHIELD Helicarrier in half in a 2010 issue of New Avengers), and so far just going by the 2 seasons of Daredevil and the 1 season of Iron Fist, they kinda suck at fighting. Comic Danny in particular is straight-up missing some powers, like his healing factor and telepathy, plus he can use the Iron Fist with both hands and it doesn't completely drain him every time he uses it like it does in the show. I wish the writers had let Danny be a little more advanced in his training, I think it would have made the show a lot better if he was a little more knowledgeable about his abilities.
I mean, I know WHY they did this, if Danny were at the level of his comic counterpart (even the early days of his comic counterpart), he'd be leagues above the other Netflix Defenders characters (again aside from maybe Daredevil in terms of fighting technique), but so far it just seems like a bit of a squandering of Danny's potential. Honestly, while I think that the Netflix shows are all excellent in their own right, really so far only Jessica Jones has been accurate with the power set of its main character. She has low-level super strength and limited flight (referenced but not demonstrated in the show) and that's about it. Luke's super-skin is accurate but his strength level seems undertuned, he can easily crush a tank if he wanted to in the comic but Diamondback in a shitty powersuit gives him trouble? Daredevil is a very skilled fighter even in the show, but in the comics he's straight-up one of the very best in all of the universe (his super senses in particular are so finely tuned in the comic that common mook thugs don't even touch him in most of his fights), and I've already explained my piece with Danny. They went too far with grounding the shows in gritty realism and it's just made the characters look kind of weak. They're still good, but as a really big Marvel fan, it's still just a teensy bit of a disappointing nitpick, because the movie adaptations are better showings for their respective characters and powersets relative to how early on they are in their superhero careers.
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Post by N7Pathfinder on Mar 21, 2017 15:58:56 GMT
I'm not sure if I should consider this as a separate thread or topic or whatever, but here's what I would do for an Iron Fist Netflix series instead of what we got.
I would have it take place entirely in Kun'Lun, focusing on Danny Rand just as he's still as student. The show would follow Danny as he goes through his intense training, inspired by Kung-fu films and epics of old (crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon for example). The villain would be Shao-Lau (totally misspelled that) and since Netflix was apparently concerned about budget problems, he would instead be a powerful warrior of the Hand with magic, almost dragon like powers.
I think this approach would have worked better both as an origin for the Iron Fist, because at that stage, Danny is younger, more inexperienced, so like DD in Season 1, it makes sense that he's not invincible nor know how to use the Iron Fist. It also helps the Defenders set up as a whole because at this point, we only know the Hand from DD season 2, and it was kind of vague (on purpose?), so why not have a series that explains the Hand from the more mystical side, give us a much more in-depth background?
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Post by o Ventus on Mar 21, 2017 18:06:28 GMT
I'm not sure if I should consider this as a separate thread or topic or whatever, but here's what I would do for an Iron Fist Netflix series instead of what we got. I would have it take place entirely in Kun'Lun, focusing on Danny Rand just as he's still as student. The show would follow Danny as he goes through his intense training, inspired by Kung-fu films and epics of old (crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon for example). The villain would be Shao-Lau (totally misspelled that) and since Netflix was apparently concerned about budget problems, he would instead be a powerful warrior of the Hand with magic, almost dragon like powers. I think this approach would have worked better both as an origin for the Iron Fist, because at that stage, Danny is younger, more inexperienced, so like DD in Season 1, it makes sense that he's not invincible nor know how to use the Iron Fist. It also helps the Defenders set up as a whole because at this point, we only know the Hand from DD season 2, and it was kind of vague (on purpose?), so why not have a series that explains the Hand from the more mystical side, give us a much more in-depth background? Having Shou-Lao be a Hand warrior would be a terrible idea, you'd have to change Shou-Lao's entire backstory to make him a Hand fighter. Lao was originally a dragon in K'un-Lun that did aerial acrobatic performances for the city's leader that went berserk and killed a handful of people and attacked the city leader. Shou-Lao was later put down and had its heart cut out, which angered Yu-Ti, the Dragon Lord, who exiled the man that killed Shou-Lao and melted the dragon's immortal heart to molten liquid and poured it into a brazier. Danny enters the picture by being chosen to battle Shou-Lao in the dragon's sacred cave, killing it, and plunging his hands into the brazier that contains the dragon's molten heart and absorbing its power into his body, becoming the Iron Fist. Shou-Lao is also functionally immortal and is reborn every time he is killed, like a phoenix. And of course, Shou-Lao has no connections to the Hand, and is pretty much a deity due to his immense power and resurrective immortality. Also the Hand already have a supernatural, mystical base that Netflix can make use of. The Hand is a cult of demon-worshipping undead ninjas. The Netflix shows have the undead ninjas part down, now they just need to introduce the demon-worship.
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Post by masterwarderz on Mar 21, 2017 18:28:44 GMT
It's not as expectedly disappointing as ME:A if that's what you are asking.
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Post by N7Pathfinder on Mar 21, 2017 19:11:26 GMT
It's not as expectedly disappointing as ME:A if that's what you are asking. I've heard something about that. I think the overall verdict I got that while it was a fun action RPG that's hard to stop playing, it doesn't reach the same level of excellence as the original trilogy. Honestly, I shouldn't blame Bioware. Mass Effect was something unique and special, so trying to make a brand new continuation, with different characters and an ambitious gameplay system was a daunting feat. Honestly though, I'm excited for something new. I'm didn't expect this game to blow the originals out of the park, but I am hoping to still have an epic space adventure and meet new characters that I'll like.
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Post by masterwarderz on Mar 21, 2017 19:14:38 GMT
It's not as expectedly disappointing as ME:A if that's what you are asking. I've heard something about that. Yeah, its been hard not to, I didn't even follow the game and I have heard quite a few people on Youtube channels I follow rip the game apart for its graphic glitches, game ruining glitches, subpar animation, predictable story, poor character design and etc. I mean I wrote off Mass Effect after 3. Dragon Age after Inquisition, I had no stake in that race but I do have ears ya know. If they are going to rant about it, I will listen if nothing else then out of mild curiosity to see how far Bioware has fallen.
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Post by o Ventus on Mar 21, 2017 20:23:20 GMT
I've heard something about that. Yeah, its been hard not to, I didn't even follow the game and I have heard quite a few people on Youtube channels I follow rip the game apart for its graphic glitches, game ruining glitches, subpar animation, predictable story, poor character design and etc. I mean I wrote off Mass Effect after 3. Dragon Age after Inquisition, I had no stake in that race but I do have ears ya know. If they are going to rant about it, I will listen if nothing else then out of mild curiosity to see how far Bioware has fallen. Inquisition is a good game that is worth playing, the biggest problem that has is that it's bogged down by side quests that often amount to little more than mindless busywork.
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Post by Heimdall on Mar 21, 2017 21:50:10 GMT
Haven't watched it.
I didn't finish Jessica Jones and I never got around to watching Luke Cage so I guess I have some catching up to do.
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Post by o Ventus on Mar 21, 2017 21:53:56 GMT
Haven't watched it. I didn't finish Jessica Jones and I never got around to watching Luke Cage so I guess I have some catching up to do. After Jessica Jones, there's also the second season of Daredevil to watch. Personally I think it's better than the first if only because of Jon Bernthal (his performance is THAT GOOD), in addition to Luke Cage and Iron Fist.
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Post by Heimdall on Mar 21, 2017 21:59:44 GMT
Haven't watched it. I didn't finish Jessica Jones and I never got around to watching Luke Cage so I guess I have some catching up to do. After Jessica Jones, there's also the second season of Daredevil to watch. Personally I think it's better than the first if only because of Jon Bernthal (his performance is THAT GOOD), in addition to Luke Cage and Iron Fist. I actually did watch that. Pretty good, probably would have been better if they left that whole Elektra storyline out.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 22, 2017 4:06:43 GMT
One other thing that kinda bothers me is that they made Danny pretty weak and shitty compared to his comic counterpart. Comic Danny would stomp TV Danny into the dirt with his little toe. They did this with Daredevil too, but it's less noticeable and more acceptable with him because he doesn't have magic powers unlike Danny, and the fight choreography for Daredevil is better IMO. Comic Daredevil and Danny are THE top hand-to-hand fighters in the Marvel multiverse (for reference, Comic Danny kicked a SHIELD Helicarrier in half in a 2010 issue of New Avengers), and so far just going by the 2 seasons of Daredevil and the 1 season of Iron Fist, they kinda suck at fighting. Comic Danny in particular is straight-up missing some powers, like his healing factor and telepathy, plus he can use the Iron Fist with both hands and it doesn't completely drain him every time he uses it like it does in the show. I wish the writers had let Danny be a little more advanced in his training, I think it would have made the show a lot better if he was a little more knowledgeable about his abilities. I mean, I know WHY they did this, if Danny were at the level of his comic counterpart (even the early days of his comic counterpart), he'd be leagues above the other Netflix Defenders characters (again aside from maybe Daredevil in terms of fighting technique), but so far it just seems like a bit of a squandering of Danny's potential. Honestly, while I think that the Netflix shows are all excellent in their own right, really so far only Jessica Jones has been accurate with the power set of its main character. She has low-level super strength and limited flight (referenced but not demonstrated in the show) and that's about it. Luke's super-skin is accurate but his strength level seems undertuned, he can easily crush a tank if he wanted to in the comic but Diamondback in a shitty powersuit gives him trouble? Daredevil is a very skilled fighter even in the show, but in the comics he's straight-up one of the very best in all of the universe (his super senses in particular are so finely tuned in the comic that common mook thugs don't even touch him in most of his fights), and I've already explained my piece with Danny. They went too far with grounding the shows in gritty realism and it's just made the characters look kind of weak. They're still good, but as a really big Marvel fan, it's still just a teensy bit of a disappointing nitpick, because the movie adaptations are better showings for their respective characters and powersets relative to how early on they are in their superhero careers. FOr Jessica Jones and Luke Cage, I think this was deliberate. Even though they are very different in power range, their abilities are very similar. So they chose to emphasize strength in Jones and invulnerability in Cage.
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