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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2016 13:00:32 GMT
Personally I have 4 worlds and will chose everyone, but for very different reasons.
My pro-mage world will have a sympathetic Leliana. I was going to go with Viv but my mage is an atheist and sick of the Chantry. Putting Vivienne in charge when she's so religious seemed like the wrong choice. EDIT - No luck, Viv got the job. But I ended up liking the tension that caused with my IQ. They're friends, but she's very wary of Viv as Divine and dissolves the IQ to distance herself from her. My pro-Templar world has Cassandra as Divine. For my religious pro-Chantry world, although best suited to Cass, will have Vivienne as my IQ is romancing Cassandra and I don't want to risk their relationship. This is also a world where my protagonists believes that mages belong in circles but deserve a voice, so she's a good choice. Which leaves my selfish bastard world. I guess a hardened Leliana will fit, my IQ is a dalish elf who hates the shems and wants absolute mage freedom. A hardened Leliana is, as far as I can see, the most sympathetic to apostates.
Who do you think is the best choice, and is there even such a thing? Which candidate is best suited to what world events?
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Post by ddj on Aug 19, 2016 13:11:45 GMT
I personally think that Cassandra would make the best Divine. That being said, since I always play as a Dalish elf I try to insure Vivienne is on the throne to provide as much turmoil to the Chantry as possible. It is my dark world view.
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Post by Zemgus on Aug 19, 2016 13:16:35 GMT
I wanted the Chantry to end and didn't support any of the candidates. Ultimately Leliana was chosen as the Divine and I think it was the second best option to getting rid of the Chantry entirely.
"Her response is as swift as it is deadly, unity is maintained, but blood runs through the halls of the Grand Cathedral."
Very interesting to see if she succeeds better in her reforms than her predecessor.
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Post by mattjamho on Aug 19, 2016 13:19:08 GMT
I don't consider any of the options to be 'the best'.
My personal preference was recruited mages with a friendship Vivienne divine, but all of them have their good and bad points.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2016 13:32:31 GMT
I personally think that Cassandra would make the best Divine. That being said, since I always play as a Dalish elf I try to insure Vivienne is on the throne to provide as much turmoil to the Chantry as possible. It is my dark world view. That's wonderfully evil.
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Post by Mickymax69 on Aug 19, 2016 14:06:46 GMT
Vivienne was too oppressive for the mages, she likes to gain & have control, doing the same things as in the past and expecting another result is an illusion. Leliana would bring too much changes, I was afraid that leads to a negative reaction as conterpart. So I put Cassandra as Divine, cause she seems to be the resonable choice temporarily.(With the purpose of placing Leliana later) Effectively there was no ideal choice.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 19, 2016 14:37:59 GMT
I have a Cassndra-end, but I prefer Leliana. Vivienne? Never-ever. The Circle-system is wrong. (I don't have pro-templar character in the whole series.)
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Post by Gilli on Aug 19, 2016 14:56:12 GMT
So far I had two WS with Cass and two with softened Leliana and I have to say I prefer softened Leliana.
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Post by dalinne on Aug 19, 2016 15:00:51 GMT
So far I had two WS with Cass and two with softened Leliana and I have to say I prefer softened Leliana. Me too. i don't see Cassandra having interest in politics or diplomacy. She is capable, of course, but I think she is more comfortable with a sword in her hands.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2016 15:02:46 GMT
Cassandra is the best choice, because not only does she honour tradition, she embraces change. In Trespasser, she rebuilds and maintains worldly relationships and keeps the peace.
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Post by Mickymax69 on Aug 19, 2016 15:17:01 GMT
So far I had two WS with Cass and two with softened Leliana and I have to say I prefer softened Leliana. Me too. i don't see Cassandra having interest in politics or diplomacy. She is capable, of course, but I think she is more comfortable with a sword in her hands. If I can intervene, it's for that reason I see Cassandra as Divine, in the same way Shepard do with Anderson.
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Post by dalinne on Aug 19, 2016 15:18:31 GMT
Me too. i don't see Cassandra having interest in politics or diplomacy. She is capable, of course, but I think she is more comfortable with a sword in her hands. If I can intervene, it's for that reason I see Cassandra as Divine, in the same way Shepard do with Anderson. I almost do the same comparision myself!! But... at the same time... Soften Leliana is not that bad... Udina is. Udina is the devil
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Post by HYR on Aug 19, 2016 15:24:08 GMT
Vivienne, for me. I felt like having her break this glass-ceiling for mages was a more meaningful reform than freeing them willy-nilly.
As well, I was generally supportive of the Circle, and on really good terms with Madame Fer.
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Post by Gilli on Aug 19, 2016 15:32:12 GMT
So far I had two WS with Cass and two with softened Leliana and I have to say I prefer softened Leliana. Me too. i don't see Cassandra having interest in politics or diplomacy. She is capable, of course, but I think she is more comfortable with a sword in her hands. Yeah, I had Cass twice and she seems so unhappy. While she makes a great Divine, she never wanted the job, she just does it because she has too. Leliana on the other hand opens the Chantry for everyone, so anyone who believes can become a priest, be they woman, man, humans, elves, dwarves, or Vashot/Ta-Vashot.
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Post by Zemgus on Aug 19, 2016 15:40:15 GMT
Vivienne was too oppressive for the mages, she likes to gain & have control, doing the same things as in the past and expecting another result is an illusion. Vivienne might favor the Circle and Templar Order, old way of things, but through her more mages gain power and a foothold in the Chantry hierarchy. That's why Vivienne as the Divine is one of the most interesting options for me. In the long run her rule might make the mages more powerful and Orleasian Chantry might become similar to the Imperial Chantry. Like Dorian said: "templars, proper circles, all that rot. Then it changed. By inches." It's a delicate balance of power and Vivienne as the first mage Divine might be just what is needed for that change to happen (or might just as well be that she will be remembered as the only mage to ever become the Divine in the South... only time will tell).
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Post by Beregond5 on Aug 19, 2016 15:52:27 GMT
I have read somewhere that the best Divine depends on which faction you support; as in, if you support the mages, you should choose Leliana, and if you support the templars, you should choose Cassandra, and if you're neutral, you should just go for Vivienne. With that said, however, Cassandra always ends up Divine, even if my quizzies support mages (still haven't figured out how my characters manage that. xD).
I don't mind, though. Cassandra doesn't bring as many changes as Leliana, but I do like how she also understands why the Chantry, as it is now, is problematic. You can see that when she tells the Inquisitor that (I'm paraphrasing here) everyone in the Chantry seems more concerned with finery when, with the same money, they could help the people in need. And that's an example from the many where it seems that she just wants the Chantry to return to its more humble roots, when it was a haven for the people in need of hope and, well, faith.
And I can also have most of my Inquisitors think: 'Well, she *was* touched by a spirit of faith, the Chantry is all about faith, so... what could possibly go wrong?'. XD
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Post by davesin on Aug 19, 2016 16:07:00 GMT
Hardened Leliana. I remember somebody calling her "the murder-pope" somewhere on youtube or the original BSN. That's what sold her to me. Besides, it's impossible to me to get Vivienne as Divine (hell, I like her and I'm always on her good side, but my decisions usually lower her chances to become Divine) and I see Cassandra more like the head of the new Seeker order than anything else.
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Post by Mickymax69 on Aug 19, 2016 16:16:27 GMT
Zemgus your point of view is relevant, but when you have to choose without knowing what will happen, you need to be cautious at first. It's in that way I make my choice. Just a few mages will benefit from her choices and when the masses are not happy you know what happen, what warranty do you have at this moment when a crowd want to erase the Chantry, you're like under a civil war. As in politic you see it every time, I'm not saying we need to do the same...but a temporary change is needed, that's what I done, even if you choose Vivienne, on a long-term you don't know. The risk of perpetrating a continuous war where nobody is satisfied, taking account of the Vivienne's appointment viewed as a provocation, is too much important.(for the rivals.) At that time, you're not in the God's secrets. Edit: I'm not saying you're not right, I'm saying even if Vivienne is a good choice on a very long-term, at that time you need to do a choice where there is an emergency, a temporary statuquo. But I know all the endings, and the ones with Vivienne confirm my doubts and fears.
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Post by opuspace on Aug 19, 2016 17:18:51 GMT
I like some aspects of each divine, but my Lavellans tend to support Leliana because she's the only one who even addresses their people's situation being affected by the Chantry. Especially after listening to Cassandra after the Temple of Mythal. I like Cassandra's approach about the mages and templar situation, it's the most reasonable in giving mages the choices they need while maintaining a place to teach them control while Templars can still be around as backup. Vivienne is good for returning things to the way they were but with more oversight. She maintains the order brutally but ensures that mages who cooperate with the system now can finally have a say. I'm actually curious to see where she takes the Chantry with her position.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 19, 2016 17:34:50 GMT
Vivienne was too oppressive for the mages, she likes to gain & have control, doing the same things as in the past and expecting another result is an illusion. Vivienne might favor the Circle and Templar Order, old way of things, but through her more mages gain power and a foothold in the Chantry hierarchy. That's why Vivienne as the Divine is one of the most interesting options for me. In the long run her rule might make the mages more powerful and Orleasian Chantry might become similar to the Imperial Chantry. Like Dorian said: "templars, proper circles, all that rot. Then it changed. By inches." It's a delicate balance of power and Vivienne as the first mage Divine might be just what is needed for that change to happen (or might just as well be that she will be remembered as the only mage to ever become the Divine in the South... only time will tell). Interesting viewpointI thought about it, but I don't accept, that she want to control the people instead to allow the people control themselves. I think this is not right path. She is REALLY fear from her own magic, and from that she may lose the control over herself (if she is not afraid from herself, why she wants to protect her [and the people] the Templars from herself?). I don't know, that she able to lead the Chantry and the Circles.
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Post by Wulfram on Aug 19, 2016 17:42:34 GMT
I don't really like any of them as Divine, really
Cassandra's aversion to politics is a problem for what is a political role. Vivienne's got the skill set but perhaps not the integrity, and I disagree with her on mage/templar stuff Stabbity Leliana is too Stabbity Hippy Leliana still might turn Stabbity
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Post by Catilina on Aug 19, 2016 17:48:02 GMT
I don't really like any of them as Divine, really Cassandra's aversion to politics is a problem for what is a political role. Vivienne's but perhaps not the integrity, and I disagree with her on mage/templar stuff Stabbity Leliana is too Stabbity Hippy Leliana still might turn Stabbity Hmmm. Then not the Inquisition, rather the Chantry must disband...
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 19, 2016 18:34:42 GMT
Since I would like to see the Chantry reduced in influence and even break apart, clearly Leliana would be the best option since her reforms are so radical. The idea that she simply talks nicely to everyone and they go along with it seemed ridiculous to me. The bit at the end of Trespasser when she is being subjected to assassination attempts seems more true to the setting. The problem with her is that she was all for total mage freedom without acknowledging that you do need some sort of formal training for the sake of the mages as well as the rest of the population. Leaving it up to the competing factions of Vivienne's Circle and the College of Enchanters seemed a recipe for disaster. Even Tevinter has Circles run by the State but they are open institutions; no one is forced to attend, in fact it is considered a privilege.
I couldn't take Vivienne being made Divine seriously. The suggestion that after some 800 years of mage oppression and not allowing them positions of power, they would give it to Vivienne just because she is good at playing the Game is nonsensical. It goes against everything the Chantry have taught about magic. As Dorian says, it is like Tevinter without the blood magic. Still I think Vivienne was a rather intriguing option. I never voted for her myself but I still ended up with her on occasion through the choices I made.
Cassandra is the Divine that would cause least trouble on the face of it and thus allow the Chantry to continue on much as before. I tend to vote for Cassandra if I have a hardened Leliana because I can't stomach having such a ruthless Divine even if she does support the elves. On those runs it would seem that my vote is what makes the difference between getting Cassandra or getting Leliana. Strangely enough, though, by the end of Trespasser, Cassandra outcomes seem the least favourable, particularly if you sided with the mages.
My favourite world state is Templars disbanded (so no Fiona causing trouble and no lyrium addicts controlling mages), Briala controlling Orlais, Wardens conscripted into Inquisition, Leliana (softened) as Divine and a friendly Vivienne with her loyal but also independent Circle. Then in Trespasser I disband the Inquisition because Leliana advised me to do so and there was no way I was going to let history repeat itself with my elven Inquisitor putting his organisation in the hands of the Chantry. The outcome in the epilogue for this seems quite favourable, although I think the reality would be different if keeping true to the setting. I'm pretty sure Briala would be assassinated or have to abdicate and leave Orlais but that would happen no matter what I had done, since the Inquisition is no longer the power that it was even if you are serving the Divine. If I couldn't keep the Inquisition as a world power because of the nobles moving against me, then my influence over the court of Orlais would no longer be enough to prevent this.
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Post by Mickymax69 on Aug 19, 2016 18:37:31 GMT
Catilina I think you're talking to me (De Niro ) : you said : "but I don't accept, that she want to control the people instead to allow the people control themselves."Her moniker is "Madame de Fer", the Lady of Iron, so It's all about politics and business, so when you learn she later will fight those who resist in violent ways, she's want to gain power, and as you said she fear her own magic, so power is all about fear & control. Those who don't want to go her ways, are facing her wrath, to remain in power. So you are free under her rules, but she kept the whole power. Are we talking about real freedom? I think she could do great things thereafter, but I prefer other options, and as I said, temporary solutions are needed to avoid violence. That's what I focus on. Edit : All in all it's Cassandra I prefer cause she looks so ridiculous with her sort of Divine hat
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Post by WardenKelda on Aug 19, 2016 18:56:47 GMT
Softened Leliana pretty much always.
My thinking goes thus. Yes the current pro-Circle divine (whether Cass or Vivienne) might allow mages more freedom but if the next divine happens to want mages under tighter control they're helpfully already in towers and with Templars surrounding them.
With a softened Leliana the mages are freed which means not only do they better integrate with wider society - making it harder to demonise them - but in the event of the next divine trying to put them back in circles they'd be almost impossible to round up.
But then again I'm also of the opinion that sans circles mages would have fewer reasons to study harmful blood magic or deliberately instigate demon possession. I mean there's always going to be people who want power but then you have people like Jowan who just want to get out of the circle and pretty much the only way to do that is with blood magic. Even Uldred wanted more freedom which is what led to Kinloch Hold.
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