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Post by Mark7 on Apr 8, 2017 15:46:18 GMT
He is not an abomination just a possessed human. An abomination looks like exactly like the image present on the same page you have linked on your previous post in regard to the abominations,to generate that thing a mage is required a mundane can't do that. So you know better than the writers of whole questline? The questline openly says that the Blood Mages try to turn templars into abominations and you don't accept. Also, an abomination's powers are dependent on the demon's power as the codex and wiki page state: Most of the world does not know, however, that the strength of an abomination depends entirely on the power of the demon that possesses the mage. Thus, the magnitude of threat an abomination can pose is dependent on the type of demon that possesses the mage. Demonic PossessionAnyway, I don't want to derail the thread more than that. It's obvious you'll continue saying the same things over and over and I don't have time for this. Edit: Not everyone who has a mage grandfather and/or father is a mage. I already said game didn't explicitly state he was a mage so that's why I didn't count him as a mage. "Let's assume that they are mages, (again, because writing that once obviously isn't enough) then Wilmod? The quest states that mages can turn someone into abomination. Even Cullen says this in that video but I presume you didn't bother to watch. They are not abominations who many times do I need to repeat the same thing?I think people here are just misusing the word without even knowing it's meaning this you who cannot accept the lore.The powers of an abomination are the sum of the powers of both the demon that made it and the mage used to make it it cannot be that difficult to understand. If a demon does not take the body of a mage then there is no abomination.Examples:1)A demon that possess a dead person can become only a Revenant(if he was a desire demon)or an Arcane Horror(if it was a Pride demon)or an undead if he was a lower class demon.
2)A demon that possess a rock become a wraith 3)A demon that possess a tree become a Sylvan 4)A demon that possess a mundane remains the same demon inside the body of the mundane 5)A demon that possess a mage by force and against the mage's will become an abomination 6)A demon that possess a willing mage becomes a more powerful demon. Matthias and her daughter are mages their magic can be felt by spirits that's why the demon inside their cat wanted them and their magical powers,also his fahter manipulated a magical barrier with his own hands,those are all facts,you can ignore it if you wish for your own headcanon but that doesn't change what the truth is,it doesn't matter if they didn't said at the protagonist that they were mages,if the can do magic then they are mages,if they can't do magic and can't be perceived by demons then they are not mages.
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Post by Mark7 on Apr 8, 2017 15:49:19 GMT
Are you kidding me? Yes I saw the scene and he did not Became an Abomination he turned into a Shade which is a demon not an abomination,please don't spread misinformation. Not every abomination looks like that picture on the Abomination page. Remember that Uldred was also an abomination. Again you don't even understand what an abomination is. Point 6 of my previous post,I've already explained that. Uldred willingly decided to give himself to a demon of pride(like Connor) ,therefore his body was not mutated,even if he classified as an abomination in the wikia(which is not wrote by the writers but by users) he isn't an abomination he was a demon of pride,he allowed to the demon of pride to take control of his body and of his magical powers.
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Post by Almila_Lavellan on Apr 8, 2017 16:02:16 GMT
Not every abomination looks like that picture on the Abomination page. Remember that Uldred was also an abomination. Again you don't even understand what an abomination is. Point 6 of my previous post,I've already explained that. Uldred willingly decided to give himself to a demon of pride(like Connor) ,therefore his body was not mutated,even if he classified as an abomination in the wikia(which is not wrote by the writers but by users) he isn't an abomination he was a demon of pride,he allowed to the demon of pride to take control of his body and of his magical powers. You seem to think that if a person's a willing participant it isn't called abomination which isn't true. In DA:O, Wynne asks Warden whether he/she saw an abomination before and Warden can say "Well, there was Connor." So Connor isn't an abomination?? You have some strange opinions on the matter. And thank you very much I know wikia isn't written by writers but I think Enemies Among Us quest was written by writers That quest in which it is stated that blood mages turned Wilmod into abomination.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 8, 2017 16:15:50 GMT
He became ABOMINATION. Did you saw that scene? Easier if a Mage does it, because a Mage attracts the demons, true. But not excluded, that a mundane, or even a tranquil to become possessed and abomination. Are you kidding me? Yes I saw the scene and he did not Became an Abomination he turned into a Shade which is a demon not an abomination,please don't spread misinformation. A demon possessed person IS an abomination.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 8, 2017 16:20:50 GMT
So you know better than the writers of whole questline? The questline openly says that the Blood Mages try to turn templars into abominations and you don't accept. Also, an abomination's powers are dependent on the demon's power as the codex and wiki page state: Most of the world does not know, however, that the strength of an abomination depends entirely on the power of the demon that possesses the mage. Thus, the magnitude of threat an abomination can pose is dependent on the type of demon that possesses the mage. Demonic PossessionAnyway, I don't want to derail the thread more than that. It's obvious you'll continue saying the same things over and over and I don't have time for this. Edit: Not everyone who has a mage grandfather and/or father is a mage. I already said game didn't explicitly state he was a mage so that's why I didn't count him as a mage. "Let's assume that they are mages, (again, because writing that once obviously isn't enough) then Wilmod? The quest states that mages can turn someone into abomination. Even Cullen says this in that video but I presume you didn't bother to watch. They are not abominations who many times do I need to repeat the same thing?I think people here are just misusing the word without even knowing it's meaning this you who cannot accept the lore.The powers of an abomination are the sum of the powers of both the demon that made it and the mage used to make it it cannot be that difficult to understand. If a demon does not take the body of a mage then there is no abomination.Examples:1)A demon that possess a dead person can become only a Revenant(if he was a desire demon)or an Arcane Horror(if it was a Pride demon)or an undead if he was a lower class demon.
2)A demon that possess a rock become a wraith 3)A demon that possess a tree become a Sylvan 4)A demon that possess a mundane remains the same demon inside the body of the mundane 5)A demon that possess a mage by force and against the mage's will become an abomination 6)A demon that possess a willing mage becomes a more powerful demon. Matthias and her daughter are mages their magic can be felt by spirits that's why the demon inside their cat wanted them and their magical powers,also his fahter manipulated a magical barrier with his own hands,those are all facts,you can ignore it if you wish for your own headcanon but that doesn't change what the truth is,it doesn't matter if they didn't said at the protagonist that they were mages,if the can do magic then they are mages,if they can't do magic and can't be perceived by demons then they are not mages. A mundane not just a body. Have a soul, just as a mage. A mundane can merge with the spirit, and become an abomination. ULDRED willingly possessed, but he's an abomination, still not demon. Anders willingly possessed, but he's not a demon. He's a kind of abomination, just as Wynne.
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Post by Mark7 on Apr 8, 2017 16:31:36 GMT
Again you don't even understand what an abomination is. Point 6 of my previous post,I've already explained that. Uldred willingly decided to give himself to a demon of pride(like Connor) ,therefore his body was not mutated,even if he classified as an abomination in the wikia(which is not wrote by the writers but by users) he isn't an abomination he was a demon of pride,he allowed to the demon of pride to take control of his body and of his magical powers. You seem to think that if a person's a willing participant it isn't called abomination which isn't true. In DA:O, Wynne asks Warden whether he/she saw an abomination before and Warden can say "Well, there was Connor." So Connor isn't an abomination?? You have some strange opinions on the matter. And thank you very much I know wikia isn't written by writers but I think Enemies Among Us quest was written by writers That quest in which it is stated that blood mages turned Wilmod into abomination. Wynne doesn't contradict anything of what I said,she only expressed her hope in matters that concern the restoration of a true abomination to his/her former self (which is obviously impossible given the fact that the mage lose not only his body but also part of his mind) I don't simply "believe" ,I'm certain of the fact that an abominaiton can only occur during forced possession of mages,even Jowan(which is the same guy who was the owner of the book that Connor used to summon the demon of desire) tell you that when he does explain the situation in which Connor is stuck. The only reason as for why Connor can be freed from the demon of desire is because he willing gave up himself to it,he wasn't an abomination and his body was separated from that of the demon which was still in the fade but was already in control of his mind.My opinions aren't strange at all and just because someone as ignorant as the HoF say that Connor was an abomination in dialogue that doesn't make it true,especially if those wardens weren't even mages to begin with and weren't even educated to discuss magic. The codexes are to be taken as references not as truths,Otherwise now I'm going to say that The Dread wolf is the God of treachery(which is simply false) because the codex of DAO said so or that Tevinter defeated the elves of Arlathan because the codex of DAO said so(which is again false)
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Post by Almila_Lavellan on Apr 8, 2017 16:38:26 GMT
You seem to think that if a person's a willing participant it isn't called abomination which isn't true. In DA:O, Wynne asks Warden whether he/she saw an abomination before and Warden can say "Well, there was Connor." So Connor isn't an abomination?? You have some strange opinions on the matter. And thank you very much I know wikia isn't written by writers but I think Enemies Among Us quest was written by writers That quest in which it is stated that blood mages turned Wilmod into abomination. Wynne doesn't contradict anything of what I said,she only expressed her hope in matters that concern the restoration of a true abomination to his/her former self (which is obviously impossible given the fact that the mage lose not only his body but also part of his mind) I don't simply "believe" ,I'm certain of the fact that an abominaiton can only occur during forced possession of mages,even Jowan(which is the same guy who was the owner of the book that Connor used to summon the demon of desire) tell you that when he does explain the situation in which Connor is stuck. The only reason as for why Connor can be freed from the demon of desire is because he willing gave up himself to it,he wasn't an abomination and his body was separated from that of the demon which was still in the fade but was already in control of his mind.My opinions aren't strange at all and just because someone as ignorant as the HoF say that Connor was an abomination in dialogue that doesn't make it true,especuially if those wardens weren't even mages to begin with and weren't even educated to discuss magic. The codexes are to be taken as references not as truths,Otherwise now I'm going to say that The Dread wolf is the God of treachery(which is simply false) because the codex of DAO said so or that Tevinter defeated the elves of Arlathan because the codex of DAO said so(which is again false) So you mean Wynne doesn't know that Connor isn't an abomination? She doesn't say "No, Connor wasn't an abomination." But do continue anyway. Even Wynne is called "abomination" in Asunder.
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Post by Mark7 on Apr 8, 2017 16:57:30 GMT
A mundane not just a body. Have a soul, just as a mage. A mundane can merge with the spirit, and become an abomination. ULDRED willingly possessed, but he's an abomination, still not demon. Anders willingly possessed, but he's not a demon. He's a kind of abomination, just as Wynne. Another straw man argument Catilina ? Did I ever said that mundanes do not have a soul?I did not therefore you are addressing an issue that you've made up by yourself then you've drawn an incorrect conclusion from it. A mundane does not have the same connection with the fade that a mage has therefore their minds are unconscious in the fade(which is the realm of spirits) and as a consequence of it they cannot merge their minds with spirits,they can only be possessed by them and be completly replaced by the will of the spirit. Uldred became a demon of Pride,that guy you had to defeat on the top of the tower was a demon of Pride inside the body of Uldred,that wasn't Uldred anymore so i don't even understand why you are adressing that being as Uldred,there was only the pride demon,Uldred was already gone and his consciousness was ereased by the demon of Pride. Anders started to become an abomination the moment that Justice became Vengence,their thoughts started to collide,and he became two different beings with two different minds in the same body i.e abomination. Wynne is a very complicated case,i cannot tell if she was willingly or unwillingly possessed since she was possessed when she was in a state of unconsciousness,and for her fortune(unitl her natural death)she did not twisted the spirit of faith inside of her.So she can be classified as an abomination,one of the few(or maybe the only one) that did not went crazy.
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Post by Mark7 on Apr 8, 2017 17:03:17 GMT
Wynne doesn't contradict anything of what I said,she only expressed her hope in matters that concern the restoration of a true abomination to his/her former self (which is obviously impossible given the fact that the mage lose not only his body but also part of his mind) I don't simply "believe" ,I'm certain of the fact that an abominaiton can only occur during forced possession of mages,even Jowan(which is the same guy who was the owner of the book that Connor used to summon the demon of desire) tell you that when he does explain the situation in which Connor is stuck. The only reason as for why Connor can be freed from the demon of desire is because he willing gave up himself to it,he wasn't an abomination and his body was separated from that of the demon which was still in the fade but was already in control of his mind.My opinions aren't strange at all and just because someone as ignorant as the HoF say that Connor was an abomination in dialogue that doesn't make it true,especuially if those wardens weren't even mages to begin with and weren't even educated to discuss magic. The codexes are to be taken as references not as truths,Otherwise now I'm going to say that The Dread wolf is the God of treachery(which is simply false) because the codex of DAO said so or that Tevinter defeated the elves of Arlathan because the codex of DAO said so(which is again false) So you mean Wynne doesn't know that Connor isn't an abomination? She doesn't say "No, Connor wasn't an abomination." But do continue anyway. Even Wynne is called "abomination" in Asunder. Connor isn't an abomination as I've already said there is no way to restore a true abomination to his/her former self, he is a mage which was/is(depend of if you left the demon there or not) mind controlled by a demon of desire. Wynne is an abomination made from a spirit not from a demon,and one of the few whom mind and thoughts were totally unified with the spirit of faith inside of her(which is pretty rare)also Flemeth is an abomination and just like Wynne her wil is totally unified without issues with the one of Mythal that's way she isn't crazy.Is when you put different minds in the same body that you create the crazy abominations.
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Post by Almila_Lavellan on Apr 8, 2017 17:17:13 GMT
So you mean Wynne doesn't know that Connor isn't an abomination? She doesn't say "No, Connor wasn't an abomination." But do continue anyway. Even Wynne is called "abomination" in Asunder. Connor isn't an abomination he is a mage which was/is(depend of if you left the demon there or not) mind controlled by a demon of desire. Wynne is an abomination made from a spirit not from a demon,and one of the few whom mind and thoughts were totally unified with the spirit of faith inside of her(which is pretty rare)also Flemeth is an abomination and just like Wynne her wil is totally unified without issues with the one of Mythal that's way she isn't crazy.Is when you put different minds in the same body that you create the crazy abominations. I didn't say Wynne and Flemeth aren't abominations. They are abominations. Why did you think you had to explain them? So you mean a mage isn't called an abomination when they're controlled by a spirit/demon? From where do you conclude this?
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Post by Catilina on Apr 8, 2017 17:29:15 GMT
A mundane not just a body. Have a soul, just as a mage. A mundane can merge with the spirit, and become an abomination. ULDRED willingly possessed, but he's an abomination, still not demon. Anders willingly possessed, but he's not a demon. He's a kind of abomination, just as Wynne. Another straw man argument Catilina ? Did I ever said that mundanes do not have a soul?I did not therefore you are addressing an issue that you've made up by yourself then you've drawn an incorrect conclusion from it. A mundane does not have the same connection with the fade that a mage has therefore their minds are unconscious in the fade(which is the realm of spirits) and as a consequence of it they cannot merge their minds with spirits,they can only be possessed by them and be completly replaced by the will of the spirit. Uldred became a demon of Pride,that guy you had to defeat on the top of the tower was a demon of Pride inside the body of Uldred,that wasn't Uldred anymore so i don't even understand why you are adressing that being as Uldred,there was only the pride demon,Uldred was already gone and his consciousness was ereased by the demon of Pride. Anders started to become an abomination the moment that Justice became Vengence,their thoughts started to collide,and he became two different beings in the same body i.e abomination. Wynne is a very complicated case,i cannot tell if she was willingly or unwillingly possessed since she was possessed when she was in a state of unconsciousness,and for her fortune(unitl her natural death)she did not twisted the spirit of faith inside of her.So she can be classified as an abomination,one of the few(or maybe the only one) that did not went crazy. Uldred was an abomination, regardless to his form. In human form, he's an abomination. In demon form, he still an abomination. Wynne and Anders was never in spirit form, but they are still some kind abomination. Wynne afraid of become dangerous, and this spirit used her body, when she was unconscious. Just as Justice used Anders body, when he wanted to protect him. ( Anders – short story.) What the difference? Faith isn't a dangerous spirit, if the host is a moderate person, not a fanatic. Justice and Anders' relationship is much harder. Anders' anger corrupted Justice, but this is a process, not a switch.
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Post by oyabun on Apr 8, 2017 18:33:48 GMT
I agree with Mark7 simply because i think there are a lot more evidences that support his claims.
An abomination is a being which is made of two or more different minds in one single body (they can be even more than two remember Flemeth who can have 3 minds in the same body in DAI).
Two different minds can be in the same body only in the case of mages there is no such thing as mundanes with multiple minds. A benevolent spirit cannot enter into the body of a mundane(I don't remeber any case of a spirit in a mundane)while a demon can,but if that happens the demon totally replace the mortal's mind(yes Wilmod was a Shade his mind was erased, the demon took his place),so that isn't an abomination that is just a demon who has gained a mortal body.
Some Abominations are more stable than others,those abominations are those made willingly by using spirits(Wynne-Anders),while Demons unlike spirits can cause only the creation of unstable abominations when they force the mage.If they do not force the mage(Connor-Uldred) that isn't an abomination that is a demon who has replaced the mind of the mage.
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Post by oyabun on Apr 8, 2017 18:35:45 GMT
Another straw man argument Catilina ? Did I ever said that mundanes do not have a soul?I did not therefore you are addressing an issue that you've made up by yourself then you've drawn an incorrect conclusion from it. A mundane does not have the same connection with the fade that a mage has therefore their minds are unconscious in the fade(which is the realm of spirits) and as a consequence of it they cannot merge their minds with spirits,they can only be possessed by them and be completly replaced by the will of the spirit. Uldred became a demon of Pride,that guy you had to defeat on the top of the tower was a demon of Pride inside the body of Uldred,that wasn't Uldred anymore so i don't even understand why you are adressing that being as Uldred,there was only the pride demon,Uldred was already gone and his consciousness was ereased by the demon of Pride. Anders started to become an abomination the moment that Justice became Vengence,their thoughts started to collide,and he became two different beings in the same body i.e abomination. Wynne is a very complicated case,i cannot tell if she was willingly or unwillingly possessed since she was possessed when she was in a state of unconsciousness,and for her fortune(unitl her natural death)she did not twisted the spirit of faith inside of her.So she can be classified as an abomination,one of the few(or maybe the only one) that did not went crazy. Uldred was an abomination, regardless to his form. In human form, he's an abomination. In demon form, he still an abomination. I disagree,Uldred was a Pride demon who gained an human body from the original Uldred and not an abomination just like the Baroness. Uldred was no more at that point,there was only one single mind in that body and it was that of the demon of pride,the mind of the original Uldred was destroyed by the demon of pride by that point.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 8, 2017 18:48:11 GMT
Uldred was an abomination, regardless to his form. In human form, he's an abomination. In demon form, he still an abomination. I disagree,Uldred was a Pride demon who gained an human body from the original Uldred and not an abomination just like the Baroness. Uldred was no more at that point,there was only one single mind in that body and it was that of the demon of pride,the mind of the original Uldred was destroyed by the demon of pride by that point. Hmm, possibly yes. But not because he merged with the pride demon willingly, rather because he was weak.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 8, 2017 19:07:55 GMT
I agree with Mark7 simply because i think there are a lot more evidences that support his claims. An abomination is a being which is made of two or more different minds in one single body (they can be even more than two remember Flemeth who can have 3 minds in the same body in DAI). Two different minds can be in the same body only in the case of mages there is no such thing as mundanes with multiple minds. A benevolent spirit cannot enter into the body of a mundane(I don't remeber any case of a spirit in a mundane)while a demon can,but if that happens the demon totally replace the mortal's mind(yes Wilmod was a Shade his mind was erased, the demon took his place),so that isn't an abomination that is just a demon who has gained a mortal body. Some Abominations are more stable than others,those abominations are those made willingly by using spirits(Wynne-Anders),while Demons unlike spirits can cause only the creation of unstable abominations when they force the mage.If they do not force the mage(Connor-Uldred) that isn't an abomination that is a demon who has replaced the mind of the mage. I think, a benevolent spirit able to enter into a mundane's or mage's body, no matter. A benevolent spirit doesn't want to do such a thing. But not need a mage, need a person. Nathaniel: Will you ever need to switch bodies, Justice? Justice: I did not even wish to possess this one. Why would I switch to another? Nathaniel: You might need to. Unless you wish to look even more obviously like a corpse. Justice: I...would prefer not to think of it. Justice: This... thing you spoke of. Switching bodies. Nathaniel: Not a favorite topic of yours, I take it? Justice: Would such a thing be permitted? Would it not be considered... abominable? Nathaniel: If they're dead, it's not as if they need the body, Justice. Justice: But I can still feel the man who once lived. I know his life, his... It is not just a body. Nathaniel: That's...good, isn't it? I'd rather you felt that way. Justice: Perhaps you are right. Nathaniel: What if you found a living body to possess? Justice: Even if I knew how, I would not possess the living. Such is an act for demons. Nathaniel: What if the person were willing?Justice: Why would a mortal ever allow such a thing? Nathaniel: For life. For love. Perhaps together, you can do what they cannot do alone. If you gave instead of taking, I would consider you no demon. Justice: It is...something to consider. Thank you, Nathaniel.
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Post by oyabun on Apr 10, 2017 15:52:32 GMT
I disagree,Uldred was a Pride demon who gained an human body from the original Uldred and not an abomination just like the Baroness. Uldred was no more at that point,there was only one single mind in that body and it was that of the demon of pride,the mind of the original Uldred was destroyed by the demon of pride by that point. Hmm, possibly yes. But not because he merged with the pride demon willingly, rather because he was weak. The writers put way too much emphasis on using the models of the abominations only over the forced possession of mages all across their DA games. I don't recall any scene where that model was used for mundanes,therefore I conclude that they want for abominations to be related only to the mages who were forced by the demons. Uldred wasn't a weak mage he was one of the most powerful senior enchanters in South Thedas and had great knowledge on blood magic,he allowed for that demon to take his body just like Connor,that way neither of them had the body shape of an abomination.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 10, 2017 16:02:29 GMT
Hmm, possibly yes. But not because he merged with the pride demon willingly, rather because he was weak. The writers put way too much emphasis on using the models of the abominations only over the forced possession of mages all across their DA games. I don't recall any scene where that model was used for mundanes,therefore I conclude that they want for abominations to be related only to the mages who were forced by the demons. Uldred wasn't a weak mage he was one of the most powerful senior enchanters in South Thedas and had great knowledge on blood magic,he allowed for that demon to take his body just like Connor,that way neither of them had the body shape of an abomination. I think, this is only design issue. Uldred and Connor's not same. An Uldred was weak. Devastating, but weak. (In terms of willpower. He wasn't able to resist to temptation, just as Meredith.)
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Post by oyabun on Apr 10, 2017 16:05:47 GMT
The writers put way too much emphasis on using the models of the abominations only over the forced possession of mages all across their DA games. I don't recall any scene where that model was used for mundanes,therefore I conclude that they want for abominations to be related only to the mages who were forced by the demons. Uldred wasn't a weak mage he was one of the most powerful senior enchanters in South Thedas and had great knowledge on blood magic,he allowed for that demon to take his body just like Connor,that way neither of them had the body shape of an abomination. I think, this is only design issue. Uldred and Connor's not same. An Uldred was weak. Devastating, but weak. (In terms of willpower. He wasn't able to resist to temptation, just as Meredith.) This is not a design issue,they planned into using such models only in specific cases,if it was just an issue as you implied then it would have been random,but there isn't anything random in the choices they've made about the designs of demons and abominations.
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