SaikyoMcRyu
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Post by SaikyoMcRyu on Aug 29, 2016 12:25:15 GMT
I'm convinced now that EA considers gamers (and the mod developer community as well, if applicable) as sheep (or perhaps Pavlov dogs depending on your view). Now? EA wrote the book on sneering evil Corporate Cat disdain for its consumers decades ago. (well, United Airlines under Jeff Smisek did give them a run for their money) Let's not forget these are the miserable assholes who pioneered the whole esports/season pass "good idea fairy" with the Madden NFL franchise. And when Sega/Visual Concepts ate their lunch with the awesome NFL2K series, first on the legendary (that's right I said it!) Dreamcast and then on PS2/XBOX, EA freaked out and signed their bullshit exclusivity agreement with the NFL because they couldn't compete with Sega's/2K's quality. EA may offer many good titles by default since they are the UnicronGalactusDeathStar/ABInBevSABMiller of software companies, just as Disney (to name one) is a rather underhanded organization that owns many respectable franchises (Pixar, Marvel, LucasArts). Indeed for every award-winning Corvette and Camaro that General Motors produces, fifteen cars go right into rental fleets and then fall apart after three to five years. Quality products may appear from a big enough company, but doesn't mean the penny-pinching bean counting suits at the top care much for quality products, if at all. They care about maximizing profitability for their shareholders - which is, after all, what they were hired to do - not whether or not gamers will get upset at the overuse of an awesome button or cut content because of a Christmas Rush (such as with Gran Turismo 2 - thanks, Sony). Look up the SimCity 2013 launch debacle for clear evidence of what EA thinks of its consumers. What's bizarely ironic for me is that ME1, which I think most of us would consider a "real" Bioware game, was produced under behemoth Microsoft, which apparently had enough sense to leave Bioware alone and let them work (I know this isn't the whole story, I'm just surprised to look at the ME1 box and see the MS name there). Basically the lesson learned here is: If you are part of a developer that values quality and independence in the gaming world, look awfully hard at the fine print on that 10 bajillion dollar check. FUTURE ELECTRONIC ARTS PRODUCT PORTFOLIO
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Post by Daemion on Aug 29, 2016 17:49:54 GMT
What's bizarely ironic for me is that ME1, which I think most of us would consider a "real" Bioware game, was produced under behemoth Microsoft, which apparently had enough sense to leave Bioware alone and let them work (I know this isn't the whole story, I'm just surprised to look at the ME1 box and see the MS name there). Basically the lesson learned here is: If you are part of a developer that values quality and independence in the gaming world, look awfully hard at the fine print on that 10 bajillion dollar check. ME1 isn't really considered a BioWare product, they were already being absorbed by EA back then. Baldur's Gate 1+2 and KotOR were BioWare games. It was inevitable. BioWare desperately needed the money, they were are relatively small developer trying to produce AAA games. They didn't have the budget for that at all. It was either selling out to EA or fading out of view and becoming another Indie developer. They would have had to downsize for that, too.
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Post by Tonymac on Aug 29, 2016 19:47:09 GMT
I think it's a good article that brings up many good points. I'd also like to point out that Chris Priestly mentioned "big-shots" wanting to close down the forums as the flood of ME3 ending complaints piled in. This is just the final impact of that action.
BioWare will not learn from their mistakes by hiding their head in the sand. Customer feedback is important to any company. By ignoring feedback / criticism they "feel better" about their work, but will continue making questionable decisions.
Frankly, after BioWare's behaviour towards fans with the "It's to deep for you to understand" or calling fans "Entitled whiners", they have shown their true colors. BioWare lost the spark, the magic - or whatever it's called. Instead of working to get it back they call the fans names and then finally ignore them. How very much like a socially unadjusted child they appear to me.
I stopped being a fan after ME3. After meeting an all new antagonist and choosing the color of lazer beam to die in, I sat there wondering why they chose this route to end such a (up 'till then) fantastic journey. Whether pressed for time or simply lacking talent; it makes no nevermind. I thought the game sucked, and I was pretty loud about it. If I happen to be in the minority of opinion, they won't miss me - and I surely won't miss them.
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Post by SofaJockey on Aug 29, 2016 21:19:11 GMT
Looking at it from the other side for a moment,
Dragon Age Inquisition was consensus Game Of The Year and if you read parts of the forum, you'd think it was a fetch quest ridden, disappointing hair, pyjama wearing piece of crap.
If what they might consider the best piece of work they could have done gets, an antagonistic reaction, then how can their forum ever be a level playing field? They might have reasoned: sure have your party, just don't spill wine/beer on our carpet...
Part of that reaction is down to withdrawing from the forums, but I can just about understand the argument.
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Post by Evil on Aug 29, 2016 22:08:22 GMT
I just read that. It has links to an unofficial bioware forum, but it isn't this one. Its that one. And a few people appear to be following the link and joining it.
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 29, 2016 22:20:55 GMT
... What? The reason (and an official one) of shutting down the forum is precisely because BSN stopped being a place where players and fans could communicate with the devs LONG AGO and use other venues for direct communication. And it's not like it's a lie - anybody who used BSN for longer period of time knows that the dev interaction was sparse in recent years. The point that the forum is a better place for discussions is entirely pointless, because a.) we can have it on a non-BW-owned forum, like this one and b.) the devs hardly ever participate in such discussions or gauge opinion on the game on a SLIVER of percent of players who actually use official forums. The forum (in general) is also no less immune to becoming an echo chamber than reddit. I know, I've seen it happen a few times. From what I see the article is pretty biased - it readily attributes BW rewriting the ending of ME3 to forum being flooded by angry outcry (which is simply untrue - I wasn't using BSN or even playing BW games at that point and even I heard about how many fans didn't like ME3 ending from multiple sources that were NOT forums) and makes a bizarre point about "fielding criticism of embracing social justice", which patently reveals author's own biases. Huh.... talk about "damned if you do, damned if you don't". They own a forum - "they're censoring us! They're using their mod power to throw people out and close topics uncomfortable for them!" They don't own a forum - "they will use their power over fans to stifle criticism!!"
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Post by flyingovertrout on Aug 30, 2016 21:59:19 GMT
Ian Miles Cheong is a silly man with an anti-"SJW"/Bioware agenda.
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Post by Stick in the Mud on Aug 30, 2016 23:06:35 GMT
Shame that getting this community together is not a story. We could use the backlinks.... You would think this community would be a story...a so-called "toxic" rag-tag band of gamers sticking together despite their differences and fighting to save their community. Most of the stories out there read like regurgitations of the initial official announcement. That's some awesome gaming journalism. Meh, these whipper snappers writing gaming articles have probably used forums about as much as they have typewriters. The BSNers' plight is about as newsworthy to them as Kodak ceasing the production of Kodachrome. Okay, I'm done being old and crotchety...for now.
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SaikyoMcRyu
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Post by SaikyoMcRyu on Aug 31, 2016 3:23:04 GMT
Ian Miles Cheong is a silly man with an anti-"SJW"/Bioware agenda. SJWs have an anti-everything agenda, so it's pretty hard to avoid making them mad.
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Post by Natashina on Aug 31, 2016 3:25:04 GMT
I've read a lot of reactions and seen a few videos on it. It irks me that some folks left the site years ago and are almost gloating about it now. Maybe it's just me, but I felt that the forums had improved from late 2013 until they decided to kill it.
As far as the article goes, I do think it has some bias. However, it struck me as more of an editorial than an objective news story anyhow. To be honest, it's nice to see an article from someone that isn't a rehash of what's already been said. They do share a lot of my own sentiments about the matter, and I'm almost convinced that the person that wrote it was a regular on the BWF.
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Post by flyingovertrout on Aug 31, 2016 5:45:17 GMT
Ian Miles Cheong is a silly man with an anti-"SJW"/Bioware agenda. SJWs have an anti-everything agenda, so it's pretty hard to avoid making them mad. Seems to me the people who are in a constant state of being offended are the ones who see "SJWs" everywhere.
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Post by SofaJockey on Aug 31, 2016 5:58:19 GMT
Ian Miles Cheong is a silly man with an anti-"SJW"/Bioware agenda. SJWs have an anti-everything agenda, so it's pretty hard to avoid making them mad. hmmm, I may be being more serious than those comments warranted. But, from my perspective: - I found Ian's article fairly decent, though I feel he does go 'looking for trouble' from 'SJW-leaning' folk, in other articles.
- Similarly, the term 'SJW' is far too convenient to describe both some who are being too sensitive and some who have a point.
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Post by linksocarina on Aug 31, 2016 13:08:21 GMT
SJWs have an anti-everything agenda, so it's pretty hard to avoid making them mad. hmmm, I may be being more serious than those comments warranted. But, from my perspective: - I found Ian's article fairly decent, though I feel he does go 'looking for trouble' from 'SJW-leaning' folk, in other articles.
- Similarly, the term 'SJW' is far too convenient to describe both some who are being too sensitive and some who have a point.
Ian is looking for trouble...he always is because he thinks hes being righteous. It's the same socio-political problem of the far left and right on cable stations like MSNBC and Fox, both sides are catering to a demographic and both sides live in a bubble. That divisiveness is not good for anyone.
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Post by NextGenCowboy on Sept 1, 2016 14:59:44 GMT
Looking at it from the other side for a moment, Dragon Age Inquisition was consensus Game Of The Year and if you read parts of the forum, you'd think it was a fetch quest ridden, disappointing hair, pyjama wearing piece of crap. If what they might consider the best piece of work they could have done gets, an antagonistic reaction, then how can their forum ever be a level playing field? They might have reasoned: sure have your party, just don't spill wine/beer on our carpet... Part of that reaction is down to withdrawing from the forums, but I can just about understand the argument. They're going to get that kind of reaction regardless of what medium they communicate with. I adore the BW fanbase. I really do. There's thousands upon thousands of awesome people in it, some of whom I've had pleasure of interacting with, learning from, and teaching. But the base as a whole is always going to be split on any choice that they make. On the one hand, there's few, if any, fanbases that are as caught up in the worlds, characters, stories, and games -- as well as the outside stuff, like writers, directors etc. -- as the BW fanbase. But that kind of passion is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, if you stay the course, and keep rehashing the tried and true formula, you get criticisms and complaints like they used to, with the BW cliche chart, and how KotOR was BG in space. When you change it up, you get complaints that it's not the same as it was. And it extends far beyond that basic divide between the old and the new. Every choice is put under a microscope, precisely because the fans care so much. Then you get a people who voice their complaints and end up with that drowning out other discussion. It happens, on a smaller scale, on almost every gaming board in existence. It happens more with BW, or seemingly so, because the fans are passionate and knowledgeable, many have been fans for a long time, and because many of us spend a great deal of time on the forums, so it's what we're most familiar with, so even if the complaints aren't disproportionately high, we may think they are. That's not to say that none of the complaints are valid. Some are, and I, personally, welcome that kind of discussion (or any discussion relating to the topics at hand), when they're done in a civilized manner. I was hoping BW would too, and to be fair perhaps they still do, just not on my medium of choice. No matter what happens, or what avenue for discussion is used, BW will always get that negative feedback, from old guard fans, from people who don't like he direction of the games in general, from people who don't like specific things about a game, or from people who just hate anything. That's not going away with a change of scenery.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Sept 1, 2016 15:26:26 GMT
Well to be fair Facebook, twitter, reddit, youtube, and other social media is where the vast people are at. And say what you will at least BioWare was kind enough to give us a warning about shutting down BSN, comic book publisher IDW (which is considered one of the top 5 publishers along with Marvel, DC, Image, and Dark Horse) didn't even bother telling anybody about when they closed their message boards. Which had plenty of fan art, fan fiction, and I had several friends there that I've lost contact with.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Sept 1, 2016 15:28:51 GMT
I just read that. It has links to an unofficial bioware forum, but it isn't this one. Its that one. And a few people appear to be following the link and joining it. uBSN is not as bad you think. I'm admin there and I have fewer problems with Cassandra than some other people here.
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Post by SofaJockey on Sept 1, 2016 16:17:51 GMT
I just read that. It has links to an unofficial bioware forum, but it isn't this one. Its that one. And a few people appear to be following the link and joining it. uBSN is not as bad you think. I'm admin there and I have fewer problems with Cassandra than some other people here. There was nothing intrinsically wrong with Cassandra's forum, it just didn't capture the support of the community. For the first couple of days following the BSN closure announcement it looked quite promising, but by the end of that first week, it was clear it wasn't the one. The Gamerant article cites that forum as it was the first up and running (the article is just over a month old). Cassandra and I last PM'd about her site over the weekend, and whilst I think we have reached a civil understanding, we disagree about the viability of her forum. Fair enough, she's entitled to do what she wants. My personal preference (not speaking as a moderator) is that we don't rake over what happened here and on that group, simply because Cassandra is in no position to defend herself and I'm not convinced it's a helpful debate.
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Post by Ondine on Sept 1, 2016 23:57:20 GMT
Honestly, I find it a very stupid decision. Absolutely nothing is an excuse for it. Ok, the forums had a lot of problems. It's part of the community, and Bioware is not the only company that has toxic people in the fanbase. Bethesda has a lot, and they still have their forums. It's not like the forum was broken? If they don't visit the forum that much, well, it isn't the forums fault, is it? Reddit is full of useful information, yes, that is lost to time quickly and unpopular opinions get downvoted. Twitter has only 140 characters and that's a joke, you can't really write anything serious with 140 characters. Tumblr isn't a plataform for interacting with other people. And frankly, I follow most of the devs and bioware twitter, check reddit often and it's very rare to see any response for criticism at all. Only promotions of bioware products and that's it. There's nothing that justify the fact that they decided to close their only official place for talking to fans and the better place for storing information and making things centralized for things like twitter or facebook. (and it's THEIR problem if they don't read it or don't care, why must the fans that gather information from there suffer from it?)
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Post by Daemion on Sept 2, 2016 5:39:26 GMT
Honestly, I find it a very stupid decision. Absolutely nothing is an excuse for it. Ok, the forums had a lot of problems. It's part of the community, and Bioware is not the only company that has toxic people in the fanbase. Bethesda has a lot, and they still have their forums. It's not like the forum was broken? If they don't visit the forum that much, well, it isn't the forums fault, is it? Reddit is full of useful information, yes, that is lost to time quickly and unpopular opinions get downvoted. Twitter has only 140 characters and that's a joke, you can't really write anything serious with 140 characters. Tumblr isn't a plataform for interacting with other people. And frankly, I follow most of the devs and bioware twitter, check reddit often and it's very rare to see any response for criticism at all. Only promotions of bioware products and that's it. There's nothing that justify the fact that they decided to close their only official place for talking to fans and the better place for storing information and making things centralized for things like twitter or facebook. (and it's THEIR problem if they don't read it or don't care, why must the fans that gather information from there suffer from it?) BioWare killed their forum years ago. It happened when the devs labeled all of it toxic in the aftermath of the ME3 ending and then stopped interacting with people. If they had had a competent community manager at the time, none of that would have happened. Someone like that could have softened the blows, could have mediated between fans and BioWare. I've said it countless times but it has always been up to BioWare to improve things, to cultivate their fan base... and it wouldn't have taken much to get things back on track. There never was a reason why the devs needed to interact with fans directly, they could have gone through a community manager. The CM reads the requests of the fans, picks the best ones and gets answers from the devs, then posts those. Fans gets what they want and the fragile devs don't need to weather the ire of the loud minority. I could write a lot more about this topic but what's the point? I often said that the BioWare forums aren't toxic, at least not in comparison with similiar forums. Yes, it wasn't all sunshine and rainbows. Sometimes people were upset and went too far. But it wasn't that bad or happened that often that you could label the entire forum toxic. The forums had more than half a million members, let's say 50% of them were active. That's 250k people, of which maybe 25 actually attacked the devs verbally. That's a stastically irrelevant percentage and that doesn't change even if we change that number up to 250. No, BioWare gave up because they couldn't adapt. They brought in third party mods who didn't interact with people, which was yet another nail in the coffin. Then they added more rules that prevented people from questioning what was happening and removed the Offtopic subforum. The forum stopped being fun then, because the mods were completely inconsistent with the rules and people quickly found loopholes anyway. Even long before that they removed functionality from the forum, they killed the BSN. Pulling the plug now didn't come as a huge surprise and this time they gave us at least a month to organize a replacement instead of only 12 minutes for the Offtopic subforum. The tragedy here is that it would have been so easy for them to change course. It really wouldn't have taken much. But I guess there was no immediate profit to be had from cultivating your fan base...
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Post by SaikyoMcRyu on Sept 2, 2016 6:03:25 GMT
Ian is looking for trouble...he always is because he thinks hes being righteous. It's the same socio-political problem of the far left and right on cable stations like MSNBC and Fox, both sides are catering to a demographic and both sides live in a bubble. That divisiveness is not good for anyone. I am curious which aspects, if any, of MSNBC you consider to be far left. And which aspects of Fox you consider to be far right. And if people who view these TV channels are living in bubbles, where does everyone else live?
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Post by Elfen Lied on Sept 2, 2016 11:19:40 GMT
While I almost agree with the article I think that it misses a point. If talking to the fans and listening to their feedback was the sole purpose of the forum I think they could have closed it many years ago. In these latest years I never went to the BSN hoping for some dev who would talk to us. I don't know if and when it happened for you, but in my case I totally stop caring about them around the launch of ME3 when they refused to acknoweledge in any way the problem of the War Assets in SP, which were not enough to get the "best" ending. That was perhaps the very first big lie they told to us and the way they managed the issue was even worse, with a single generic answer ("It's possible. Deal with it.") which was immediately contested by hundred of players who posted screenshots, tables, schemes that clearly stated that 5000 EMS in SP were just impossible to get. Well, which was they reaction? Nothing, nobody just answered anymore. From that moment I couldn't care less about them anymore.
Anyway, an official gaming forum is not just for feedback or criticism. That's just one of its main features. What about the walktroughs, the build guides, the discussions about the lore, the modding community, and so on? Even without the presence of any BW devs I've always learned so much about their games, their stories and their characters in that place. There were just so many things that I would have never found on my own and I can't even say how many times the forum was of help to me. By shutting down that place they just deprived their players of something way bigger than a simple place for criticsm. Even without their presence the BSN was an universal resource of experience and knowledge about every single aspect of their games, and it was just something that was built by us, the players, over decades of playing and sharing our experiences. And imho this is the real thing which will be very difficult to replace.
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linksocarina
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Post by linksocarina on Sept 2, 2016 12:52:29 GMT
Ian is looking for trouble...he always is because he thinks hes being righteous. It's the same socio-political problem of the far left and right on cable stations like MSNBC and Fox, both sides are catering to a demographic and both sides live in a bubble. That divisiveness is not good for anyone. I am curious which aspects, if any, of MSNBC you consider to be far left. And which aspects of Fox you consider to be far right. And if people who view these TV channels are living in bubbles, where does everyone else live? Depends, really. It's not aspects of their stations, it's the overall presentation of their anchors and slant of their news stories. If you take the same news story and put it on both channels, then they will give you two different perspectives of it, both bias to the audience watching. People who only watch one are stuck in that bubble, thats all they hear and see.
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Post by SaikyoMcRyu on Sept 2, 2016 14:05:10 GMT
I am curious which aspects, if any, of MSNBC you consider to be far left. And which aspects of Fox you consider to be far right. And if people who view these TV channels are living in bubbles, where does everyone else live? Depends, really. It's not aspects of their stations, it's the overall presentation of their anchors and slant of their news stories. If you take the same news story and put it on both channels, then they will give you two different perspectives of it, both bias to the audience watching. People who only watch one are stuck in that bubble, thats all they hear and see. Cite for me an unbiased news source.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Sept 2, 2016 17:15:06 GMT
Depends, really. It's not aspects of their stations, it's the overall presentation of their anchors and slant of their news stories. If you take the same news story and put it on both channels, then they will give you two different perspectives of it, both bias to the audience watching. People who only watch one are stuck in that bubble, thats all they hear and see. Cite for me an unbiased news source. The truth is MSNBC and CNN are center-right pro-corporate wastes of time. Fox News is just right-wing period. The Young Turks, Ring of Fire, RT America while are openly and proudly progressive they don't sugar-coat the news.
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Post by SaikyoMcRyu on Sept 3, 2016 0:00:05 GMT
Cite for me an unbiased news source. The truth is MSNBC and CNN are center-right pro-corporate wastes of time. Fox News is just right-wing period. The Young Turks, Ring of Fire, RT America while are openly and proudly progressive they don't sugar-coat the news. Ah, now we're getting somewhere. So, while we are on the subject, I would like you to tell me, specifically, what "progressive" means. What are your goals? What destination are you "progressing" to? When will you know you have reached it?
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