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Post by Iddy on Aug 26, 2016 1:10:14 GMT
A place dedicated to talking about your elven characters, elven lore and all elven glory.
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Post by Iddy on Aug 26, 2016 1:11:09 GMT
Let me start with a simple question: Who are the best looking male and female elven characters in the series?
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Post by Luna on Aug 26, 2016 2:08:52 GMT
Mhhh, for male i would definitely say Fenris (DA2). He was hot as hell. For Female i would choose ........... Shianni(DAO). I don't know why, but for me she was by far the most beautiful female elf in the entire series. Unforgotten. My lovely Egghead (Solas/DAI) was very interesting and for a long time my favorite romance (until he leaves the Inquisition without a word for 2 years and surely until he had revealed his plans for Thedas ) but not really a beauty, sorry Solas.
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Post by opuspace on Aug 26, 2016 6:02:01 GMT
Solas has the quintessential refined elven features with his gracefully sharp jawline to his cheekbones to aquiline nose. For crying out loud, he's the most popular fan thread and Bioware keeping a glorious head of hair from him did nothing to stop the love! Sera has very distinct features, and it's enjoyable the way they flow together in an aggressive broad symmetry.
To be honest, aesthetically, I like player designs of elves far more than canon. Some really nail that unnaturally elegant look to them. (Thank you, op, for setting up the elven thread.)
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Post by Iddy on Aug 26, 2016 6:29:54 GMT
You're welcome, lethallin. As for me... I'm more of a Abelas guy. To me, that is what the perfect male elf looks like: High cheekbones, strong jaw and beautiful mouth shape. That said, it wouldn't hurt to give him some friggin' eyebrows. Among the girls, Ariane comes first to my mind. The eye height is high, which means a bigger, sharper face and the long hair looks great.
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Post by Zemgus on Aug 26, 2016 9:26:57 GMT
Let me start with a simple question: Who are the best looking male and female elven characters in the series? Abelas, definitely. Best looking female elf is more difficult... I kind of liked Merrill in DA2 even though I generally hated the elf redesign in the game. She and Fenris did look 100x better than all the other elves, though. I also liked Shianni, she was very pretty and I wanted her to become a companion. Another question: what is everyone's opinion of elves being barefoot? Like it or hate it?
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 26, 2016 13:12:00 GMT
Thus far Fenris is definitely my favourite male on looks, although not with that strangely elongated neck that really looks weird when he is questioning Hadriana. Personality wise, though, I'd opt for Zevran. Also he looks pretty good in DAO (I just try and forget DA2 all round where he is concerned). I prefer hair personally. I did overlook that with Solas and I loved his character until he turned out to be a complete and utter hyprocrite, with all his fine words counting for nothing in the end. I could have forgiven him going off without an explanation. It was the fact that all the time he was lecturing my companions about various issues, he knew it would be pointless them changing their outlook since he was planning on roasting them anyway. Cassandra: "What do you believe Solas?" "I believe in the right of every free thinking individual to exist". Hmm.
I think Shianni is really attractive but all the DA2 elves suffer from the re-design so there is not really a fair comparison. Merrill was better than most.
As for the barefoot thing. I know DG was against it and really I do not see the reason for it. It makes them seem some sort of nature hippy but totally impractical for elves living in southern Thedas. Are their bodies more resistant to cold than humans? Running around through snow and freezing rivers, across burning sands and sharp rocks, barefoot when you could be wearing boots? That makes no sense at all. May be ancient elves have a different metabolism but not modern ones. What about protecting the soles of your feet from damage? It was hilarious in DA2 because they actually had Fenris and Merrill constantly checking their feet and I seem to recall Merrill even commenting about treading in something nasty. Even if the Dalish had some weird idea that this was customary for elves, why did the city elves have the same tradition? May be if you were too poor to buy shoes but then it would be a matter of pride if you could afford them. Zevran had the right idea, he was really fond of his boots. Thank goodness we are allowed to make our own armour, so can avoid bare feet if we wish.
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Post by Iddy on Aug 26, 2016 13:14:26 GMT
Sounds like a myth to me.
Ignoring that all Dalish elves we've ever seen wore either shoes or armor boots, it isn't mentioned by any credible sources that they go barefoot all the time.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 26, 2016 13:25:44 GMT
It was a design feature introduced in DA2. Every elf you meet has bare toes and heels, with the bit in the middle covered, even Fenris. This applied to both city elves and Dalish. Then this was continued in DAI. The Dalish armour does not have footwear. You have shin pads protecting your lower leg but nothing on your feet. From what I recall it is the same with the Keeper robes. Solas is the same when he first meets you. However, from looking at screenshots it would appear that sentinel armour does have integral footwear, so it is not an ancient elven thing. If other elves were wearing shoes/boots in DAI then the design team were just not being consistent. Or may be they just had the Dalish going bare foot so they would look stupid; just another thing they got wrong (heavy sarcasm)
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Post by Iddy on Aug 26, 2016 16:19:20 GMT
Sounds impractical to me. If you're living in the wilderness, the last thing you want is to go barefoot.
Stepping on tiny rocks, sharp branches on the ground,venomous animals...
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Post by Zemgus on Aug 26, 2016 16:28:28 GMT
Yeah it doesn't sound very practical, but I still kind of like them going barefoot.
By the way, does anyone have any information about whether is has been ever stated when the last gathering of Clans took place? Like what year? It's supposed to happen every ten years and I remember reading somewhere that in banter between Merrill and Fenris one of them mentioned about Alarthven happening again soon. When might that be? And where do they usually meet, what do you think? In the Dales maybe or some unknown old elven place that humans know nothing about?
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 26, 2016 18:39:22 GMT
I always felt that Fenris was just winding Merrill up about that. I didn't think Fenris had much to do with Merrill's clan and didn't like mixing with the Dalish much, so how would he know that an Arlathaven was taking place? I'm sure they don't run around the alienage publicising it. Plus he said it was being held near Halamshiral, which would make no sense as they meet in a remote location in the wilderness so they aren't in danger of discovery by humans. A big gathering of the clans would be pretty noticeable. So I think the Fenris conversation with Merrill was just the writers thinking something would be funny without thinking much about how implausible it would be. Nevertheless, if the conversation was meant to be genuine, then that would be sometime between 9:31 and 9:37, depending on when you think the hunting party took place. If you think it happened before the Arishok went crazy, then that would put it before the end of 9:34. If you think it occurred in the period between Act 2 and Act 3, then it was more likely in 9:35 or 9:36.
Now Velanna mentions to a Dalish Warden how she remembers them from the last Arlathaven and there was definitely one after the events of DAO because the clan elders discussed about what Zathrian had been revealed to have done. I think Velanna would be less likely to remember a young Dalish without their vallaslin and have head cannoned that those who have undergone their rite of adulthood between Arlathavens, would be introduced as adults the next one. So as the Warden is likely in their late teens or early twenties, I reckoned the Arlathaven where Velanna saw them was likely around 9:24 to 9:25.
Personally I've opted for the next Arlathaven to be in the late spring of 9:45, as this would allow a Dalish Inquisitor to attend and be able to tell them about all their discoveries, including those in Trespasser. Otherwise, if it was earlier than this, then may be they took time out to attend and tell them about the Temple of Mythal, even if they didn't yet know about Fen'Harel.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2016 18:46:56 GMT
Fenris is my fav and I think Ariane is precious and Merrill is beautiful, but my top elves are Solas and Abelas with a special nod to Tamlen. Best looking male elf in DAO in my opinion!
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Post by Catilina on Aug 26, 2016 18:51:45 GMT
Best looking? Hmmm, maybe Abelas. And Fenris' voice is the best.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 26, 2016 19:02:18 GMT
I've been replaying the Dalish origin in DAO and whilst the storyteller Paival does use the rather insulting "flat ears" when referring to city elves, I was nevertheless struck by how different his attitude was towards city elves compared with the Keeper in Masked Empire. When my PC asks if he thinks they will ever have a homeland again he says:
"We can hope to find a new home one day, where the Dalish and the flatears will build a land greater even than Arlathan. We shall teach the flat ears the lore and perhaps they will teach us to understand the shemlen at last. That is the only way we shall truly live in peace."
So there seems a definite understanding there that cutting themselves off entirely didn't work before and they should try something different in the future. Also that not only will the city elves be welcome but that some Dalish at least think they will have an important contribution to make in the success of the new homeland, namely helping relations with their human neighbours. Now this of course is consistent with what Zathrian's storekeeper later tells Mahariel about their father and how he was unpopular with some other clan elders because of his idea that the Dalish should have greater contact with humans in order to try and learn from them. Clearly the Sabrae clan were continuing his ideas after his death. This is all the more remarkable because Keeper Mahariel was killed by human and city elf bandits. (I realise this is not what is stated in World of Thedas 2 concerning the Sabrae clan but it is what is stated in game).
Clearly Keeper Deshanna of the Lavellan clan must hold similar views, which is why she sent her representative to spy on the Conclave and is also so insistent on standing by the city elves in Wycome when things start getting nasty. Lanaya of Zathrian's clan was also not against trying to work with humans, although of course Alistair tells Merrill that the Dalish boon didn't work out. Clearly that couldn't have been entirely the Dalish fault. That clan on the Exalted Plain wanted to make a peace offering to the village of Red Crossing, so clearly they are in favour of trying to build bridges as well. Even Velanna's Keeper did not want to make trouble by seeking vengeance and that was something she did in exile.
Anyway, I've decided that it was a pity that the only clan Briala had any dealings with was clan Virnehn because whilst there are clearly some Dalish with their views, they are in the minority compared with the clans we have encountered in the game or mentioned via the war table. This makes me hopeful that if the writers would just allow the elves a homeland, it ought to be possible to make it work.
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Post by opuspace on Aug 27, 2016 15:55:44 GMT
So there seems a definite understanding there that cutting themselves off entirely didn't work before and they should try something different in the future. Also that not only will the city elves be welcome but that some Dalish at least think they will have an important contribution to make in the success of the new homeland, namely helping relations with their human neighbours. Now this of course is consistent with what Zathrian's storekeeper later tells Mahariel about their father and how he was unpopular with some other clan elders because of his idea that the Dalish should have greater contact with humans in order to try and learn from them. Clearly the Sabrae clan were continuing his ideas after his death. This is all the more remarkable because Keeper Mahariel was killed by human and city elf bandits. (I realise this is not what is stated in World of Thedas 2 concerning the Sabrae clan but it is what is stated in game).
Clearly Keeper Deshanna of the Lavellan clan must hold similar views, which is why she sent her representative to spy on the Conclave and is also so insistent on standing by the city elves in Wycome when things start getting nasty. Lanaya of Zathrian's clan was also not against trying to work with humans, although of course Alistair tells Merrill that the Dalish boon didn't work out. Clearly that couldn't have been entirely the Dalish fault. That clan on the Exalted Plain wanted to make a peace offering to the village of Red Crossing, so clearly they are in favour of trying to build bridges as well. Even Velanna's Keeper did not want to make trouble by seeking vengeance and that was something she did in exile.
Anyway, I've decided that it was a pity that the only clan Briala had any dealings with was clan Virnehn because whilst there are clearly some Dalish with their views, they are in the minority compared with the clans we have encountered in the game or mentioned via the war table. This makes me hopeful that if the writers would just allow the elves a homeland, it ought to be possible to make it work. I'd like to see more positive outcomes for the elves like a successful Wycome mission. It's a shame that Lavellan's foothold into having a say on the council with humans and city elves is too player dependent to be canon for certain.
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Post by Iddy on Aug 29, 2016 23:45:16 GMT
I'm reading the Masked Empire and this particular moment disgusted me: _____________________________ "Do you disagree, Michel?"
"No. Your pardon, Majesty." He shook his head. "I wonder at their foolishness. To sneak out after curfew is one thing. To kill guards and raise barricades, what could they have been thinking?"
"They were hungry and afraid." Celene shrugged. "Some nobles are cruel to the poor creatures without need. Even a dog will learn to bite if kicked enough." Michel raised an eyebrow. "You almost sound sorry for them."
She smiled sadly. "I had hoped to solve this in a different way, Michel.
The elves belong to this empire. They have their place in it, as surely as you or I, and it is my duty before the Maker to provide them guidance, safety, and comfort. What I do now, I do with a heavy heart." ______________________________
Really, Patrick? Are you trying to convince us that Celene was heartbroken and her intentions were pure? No. Just no.
I know that writers often try to make their characters seem morally grey, but it doesn't work here.
I can sympathise with Loghain, a man so obsessed with protecting his people that he would resort to any methods that could make sure they'd be safe.
But Celene? She did it because her reputation and power were threatened. This is greed, vanity and nothing more.
At least Felassan lays down the truth and tells Briala that Celene only helped the elves to please her. And thankfully, the book ends without any foolish reconciliation.
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Post by Zemgus on Aug 30, 2016 10:02:03 GMT
It was weird to me that there even was the option to reconcile them in DAI... I mean how could Briala forgive and/or forget everything Celene did?
By the way, I was reading WoT yesterday and there was this one part about Dalish magic: "Unlike other spellcasters, Dalish mages do not use any magic involving spirits, as they believe all spirits are dangerous." Well, that makes no sense at all. Why would the elves believe something like that? Sounds more like superstitious stuff the Chantry might teach. Even Merrill in DA2 says to Anders: "Spirits differ from each other, just as you and Hawke and Isabela are all human. More or less..." I would think that the Dalish if anyone would be the ones to seek guidance from spirits and not be afraid of them...
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 30, 2016 10:08:03 GMT
Patrick says he likes writing characters that are morally compromised rather than out and out villains, which is why he tried to make Celene seem a more sympathetic character initially. It was the same with the others, like Michel, when if you really look at their motivations they are utterly selfish.
I was more incensed at the hatchet job he did on the Dalish reputation. No sense of balance there. He wanted them to look utterly reprehensible so he could justify his "heroes" leaving them to be torn apart by demons. Felassan had been dealing with the most bigoted clan imaginable down the years of any that he could have gone to, likely because he thought they would be easiest to manipulate into doing what he wished, which was gaining control of the eluvians. He likely thought the Keeper would be willing to sacrifice someone to appease Imshael and was probably a bit put out that even Thelhen had enough principles not to do that. Yet Felassan had the cheek to suggest to Briala that Clan Virnhen were typical of the Dalish.
As I point out above, having replayed the Dalish origin in DAO, it is clear that the relationship between the Dalish and the city elves portrayed there is vastly different from the one espoused by Thelhen. Had Briala gone to Clan Sabrae, or Zathrian's clan, or the clan in the Exalted Plains, or the clan in Antiva that took in Zevran, or clan Ralaferin, or Velanna's clan, in fact any of the clans were have encountered either personally or their representatives or through anecdotes or codices, she would have been given a warm welcome, even if the clan members might not have been that keen on the company she kept.
But no, PW had her go to clan Virnhen. The only clan that has a War Leader. Why, for goodness sake? All the Dalish know they aren't likely to be going to war anytime soon, except in extreme cases like Blights. And this War Leader claims they like to torture their captives with a game called Fen'Harel's teeth. That totally goes against Dalish beliefs of the followers of the Creators, where the rule is "Strike true; do not waver. And let not your prey suffer". It strikes me that this must be the clan that Morrigan was thinking of when she describes them hunting humans deliberately in the Temple of Mythal. To my mind they seem more like the followers of the Forgotten Ones that can be encountered in the Tirashan and were found in the old Dales, even though condemned by the mainstream Dalish. PW seems to forget that the Evanuris may have been ***holes but the Dalish don't know that. They think they are benign teachers and respecters of nature, that they should try and emulate.
Even then, his characters seem to overlook that in fact the clan did take action to rescue them from the sylvans, when they could just as easily not have done so. I think the Keeper's reaction is perfectly reasonable concerning helping Celene. Why should he risk his clan helping her recover her throne for promised benefits that will no doubt be rescinded once she is safe on her throne? Yet she lies to Briala and says that Thelhen says he is going to kill her. That is not what he said. I still don't feel that any of the party has justification for leaving the clan to be massacred and that Felassan was particularly culpable because he knew that Michel's action would free the demon.
It was one of those stories where I didn't particularly mind what happened to them after that but was at least glad that Briala finally saw through Celene and freed herself from her influence. My favourite resolution of the Wicked Hearts quest is for Gaspard to be Briala's puppet. I suspect that Briala's days will be numbered after I disbanded the Inquisition but at least she had a run of a couple of years. I felt it was poetic justice for both Celene and Gaspard. My Lavellan didn't feel good about just standing there and not intervening to prevent Celene's death but then he remembered all the elven children who would have been burned in Halamshiral and he steeled himself.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 30, 2016 10:15:38 GMT
I think the Dalish suspicion of spirits probably dates back to the time of their captivity in Tevinter and seeing the sort of things that the Magisters got spirits to do. Demons are very closely connected with blood magic and you can see how an absolute prohibition would have grown up against that in view of everything that the elven slaves suffered in the name of blood magic. If the Dalish had spent longer in the Dales developing their magic, likely they would have developed traditions similar to the Avaar but they were forced on the run and much of the time would have the sort of emotions not conducive to attracting helpful spirits. Whilst I repudiate the silly 3 mage rule in DAI with its link to fear of out of control mages, I do think that Keepers might be wary of teaching magic that attracts spirits when there is the underlying fear of abominations if it goes wrong. Clans have enough natural dangers to worry about that they can ill afford to be fighting demons and abominations.
It is sad and rather ironic that they should have that attitude because of the good relationship with spirits that their ancestors had but things were different before the Veil and spirits likely were too.
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Post by Zemgus on Aug 30, 2016 10:19:53 GMT
I hated how Clan Virnhen was written. They were little better than common human bandits. At least Solas says that "all Clans are different" and that makes sense. Still, I found that scene where Imshael kills the Dalish to be utterly tasteless... and how arrogantly Briala later treats Mihris. First she gets upset because the Dalish do not see City Elves as their people and then she herself lets them all be slaughtered by a demon and acts like she's the better person (forgetting how they saved her and her precious Empresses life, even when they didn't have to).
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 30, 2016 13:20:45 GMT
Hi there, I've put a rather lengthy post under a different topic heading because I didn't want to fill up the space here, but elf lovers may find it of interest as it is entitled Drakon, the Chantry, the Dales and the legacy of Shartan. Please read and comment. Thanks.
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Post by Iddy on Aug 30, 2016 13:34:22 GMT
Patrick says he likes writing characters that are morally compromised rather than out and out villains, which is why he tried to make Celene seem a more sympathetic character initially. It was the same with the others, like Michel, when if you really look at their motivations they are utterly selfish. I was more incensed at the hatchet job he did on the Dalish reputation. No sense of balance there. He wanted them to look utterly reprehensible so he could justify his "heroes" leaving them to be torn apart by demons. Felassan had been dealing with the most bigoted clan imaginable down the years of any that he could have gone to, likely because he thought they would be easiest to manipulate into doing what he wished, which was gaining control of the eluvians. He likely thought the Keeper would be willing to sacrifice someone to appease Imshael and was probably a bit put out that even Thelhen had enough principles not to do that. Yet Felassan had the cheek to suggest to Briala that Clan Virnhen were typical of the Dalish. As I point out above, having replayed the Dalish origin in DAO, it is clear that the relationship between the Dalish and the city elves portrayed there is vastly different from the one espoused by Thelhen. Had Briala gone to Clan Sabrae, or Zathrian's clan, or the clan in the Exalted Plains, or the clan in Antiva that took in Zevran, or clan Ralaferin, or Velanna's clan, in fact any of the clans were have encountered either personally or their representatives or through anecdotes or codices, she would have been given a warm welcome, even if the clan members might not have been that keen on the company she kept. But no, PW had her go to clan Virnhen. The only clan that has a War Leader. Why, for goodness sake? All the Dalish know they aren't likely to be going to war anytime soon, except in extreme cases like Blights. And this War Leader claims they like to torture their captives with a game called Fen'Harel's teeth. That totally goes against Dalish beliefs of the followers of the Creators, where the rule is "Strike true; do not waver. And let not your prey suffer". It strikes me that this must be the clan that Morrigan was thinking of when she describes them hunting humans deliberately in the Temple of Mythal. To my mind they seem more like the followers of the Forgotten Ones that can be encountered in the Tirashan and were found in the old Dales, even though condemned by the mainstream Dalish. PW seems to forget that the Evanuris may have been ***holes but the Dalish don't know that. They think they are benign teachers and respecters of nature, that they should try and emulate. Even then, his characters seem to overlook that in fact the clan did take action to rescue them from the sylvans, when they could just as easily not have done so. I think the Keeper's reaction is perfectly reasonable concerning helping Celene. Why should he risk his clan helping her recover her throne for promised benefits that will no doubt be rescinded once she is safe on her throne? Yet she lies to Briala and says that Thelhen says he is going to kill her. That is not what he said. I still don't feel that any of the party has justification for leaving the clan to be massacred and that Felassan was particularly culpable because he knew that Michel's action would free the demon. It was one of those stories where I didn't particularly mind what happened to them after that but was at least glad that Briala finally saw through Celene and freed herself from her influence. My favourite resolution of the Wicked Hearts quest is for Gaspard to be Briala's puppet. I suspect that Briala's days will be numbered after I disbanded the Inquisition but at least she had a run of a couple of years. I felt it was poetic justice for both Celene and Gaspard. My Lavellan didn't feel good about just standing there and not intervening to prevent Celene's death but then he remembered all the elven children who would have been burned in Halamshiral and he steeled himself. And Patrick Weekes is the lead writer now. Things don't seem very promising. But you know... as much as people like to punish Celene based on the idea that their Lavellan knows about Halamshiral, it doesn't make any sense. The Dalish are isolated people. They barely have any contact with other clans and it is even less likely that they would hear about what happens to the city elves.
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Post by opuspace on Aug 30, 2016 17:24:43 GMT
I know that writers often try to make their characters seem morally grey, but it doesn't work here. I can sympathise with Loghain, a man so obsessed with protecting his people that he would resort to any methods that could make sure they'd be safe. Thing is with Loghain, that for all his griping about Orlesians enslaving Fereldens, he's responsible for Ferelden elves getting sold into slavery to Tevinter. So wanting to protect Fereldens from slavery by selling them into slavery? Yeah, Loghain, you're a douche.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 30, 2016 17:58:52 GMT
So clan Lavellan gets to hear about a Conclave held by the Divine in Haven but not about Halamshiral? Elves revolting in the Dales was pretty big news, not among the Dalish but among the human rulers. No doubt merchants who would normally have done business with Halamshiral would have been talking as well. So if clan Lavellan heard about the Conclave they would likely hear about Halamshiral by the same means.
In any case, my Lavellan was on a fact finding mission. He would have talked to people. When it was suggested he needed to attend a ball at the Winter Palace, he would have chatted to people. Leliana knew what happened, since she was the one who passed on Divine Justinia's instructions to Celene that she needed to deal with the elves before the Divine would deal with the mages. Since Leliana is the one who suggests letting Celene be assassinated, I'm guessing that she would be happy enough to talk to Lavellan if asked.
Normally I don't allow my characters to be influence by the events in a book on the grounds they would not be aware but in this case I made an exception.
As for Loghain, he is the reason that neither my city elf or my Dalish would ever let him live. The city elf is also aware of the assistance of the Night Elves in the rebellion. Loghain and his precious Maric wouldn't have succeeded without their help but gratitude only lasted as long as they did need them. Then Loghain has the cheek to justify his actions by saying that conditions are so bad in the alienage the elves would be better off as slaves. Well he and Maric could have done something about the alienages once they were back in power and his daughter could have done something when she was running the country on behalf of Cailen. So if conditions are bad, it is their fault. I think the only thing that would have been better than killing him would have been to sell him as a slave, so he can see first hand just how much better it is (sarcasm).
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