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Post by Iddy on Sept 1, 2016 14:20:26 GMT
One thing I don't understand is the idea that elves have big eyes.
It was introduced in DA2 and still reinforced by the Masked Empire and the Iron Bull's dialogue.
In Inquisition, though? I just don't see it. Solas, Ameridan and Abelas certainly don't match that description.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 1, 2016 16:17:17 GMT
Yes, PW made such a big thing of the larger eyes in Masked Empire. I did notice that they made Briala's eyes look rather large but beyond that there didn't seem a huge difference between the elves we met and humans. I did my best to make my elf's eyes bigger but then I actually liked them that way and would have done so without the lore on the matter. Originally I thought it was just meant to be the ears that are different, plus having slimmer bodies. It was odd that the ancient elves weren't more different if large eyes are meant to be an elven thing, because you'd think that any features would be more pronounced in them and become more diluted over time, as with everything else. As it was the only real difference seemed to be paler skin and bald heads.
If the mosaics are anything to go by, though, the Evanuris looked really alien. Funnily enough if you took the DA2 elves, with their strange elongated necks and flat nose feature, and made them bald, they would probably be closer to the mosaics.
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Post by Iddy on Sept 1, 2016 20:30:01 GMT
Solas is an ancient elf and he certainly doesn't have big eyes.
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Post by Zemgus on Sept 1, 2016 20:44:45 GMT
Most elves in DAI had normal sized eyes.
I'm really glad DA2's super awful elf redesign is a thing of the past...
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Post by Iddy on Sept 1, 2016 22:13:29 GMT
Most elves in DAI had normal sized eyes. I'm really glad DA2's super awful elf redesign is a thing of the past... The lore still seems to reinforce it, though.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 2, 2016 20:36:07 GMT
Does the lore reinforce it though? It was never mentioned in DAO. Then in DA2 the whole elf features were redesigned but by DAI they had clearly changed their minds on that one. There is constant emphasis in Masked Empire but PW could still have been thinking of the design in DA2 when he wrote it. The only reference I recall about big eyes in DAI was by Iron Bull and he was written by PW, so may be he forgot or did not yet know about the new design in DAI when he wrote that dialogue. Were there any codices in game that mentioned about elves having bigger eyes? None of the elves we meet in game seem to have appreciably bigger eyes than anyone else.
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Post by opuspace on Sept 2, 2016 20:39:53 GMT
Maybe because elves have the lucidum tapetum in their eyes the way cats do, they're supposed to have the large size as well?
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Post by Zemgus on Sept 2, 2016 22:17:41 GMT
Were there any codices in game that mentioned about elves having bigger eyes? None of the elves we meet in game seem to have appreciably bigger eyes than anyone else. Not as far as I know. IB is the only one to ever mention it, I think.
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Post by Iddy on Sept 4, 2016 6:53:30 GMT
We used to imagine that Lavellan will share everything she's learned in the next Arlathvhen, but then I remembered something.
Only clan elders participate in the lore discussion. For everyone else, the event is just an opportunity to meet people from other clans.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 4, 2016 14:39:57 GMT
I think the clan elders would make an exception in this case. The clan we meet in the Exalted Plains say how everyone is talking about the elven Inquisitor and how they hope it will mark a new beginning for their people. Then we also find out about the truth about Red Crossing, Ameridan and our ancient ancestors. I hardly think the elders are going to say "Nope, you just sit over there because you aren't an elder, so we have no interest in anything you wish to say." In any case, they can always pass all the information on to their Keeper and let them tell the elders but I'm pretty sure they would be wise enough to see that it is better to get direct from the person who made the discoveries. In any case, being an elder is as much based on knowledge and experience gained as on age. Surely a hunter who has gone repeatedly into ruins in search of old lore is just as valuable to the gathering as a Keeper who has stayed back at camp?
In the case of my male Lavellan, when some of the more bigoted clan elders were suggesting he wasn't welcome at their gathering, he simply produced the enormous number of artefacts that he had gathered on behalf of their people and asked if they would like to learn how he came by them. Their objections to his presence weren't on the basis of lack of seniority, though, but more on the grounds of the company he had been keeping, which he had been expecting since his lover was Dorian. (Naturally he didn't take Dorian with him to the gathering but gossip travels).
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Post by Iddy on Sept 4, 2016 20:17:47 GMT
I know that the elders aren't necessarily old.
I was referring to the high ranking roles like storyteller, warleader, master craftsman and such.
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Post by patches on Sept 6, 2016 18:37:53 GMT
I wish they had kept the DA2 elf look, the background characters were horrific but the plot relevant ones looked alright. A bit crazy with the make-up sometimes but that's DA for you. It needed tweaking- shorten the neck, broaden the shoulders a little but DAI elves have the same problems but now with added freaky skinning arms.
Like the qunari DA2 elves looked like their own species, still humanish but not like BW just mucked about with the human model and called it a day.
But the other reason I'd like the DA2 look to still be around is that it would have made such a great contrast to Solas and the temple guardians. I would have loved that half starved waif look of modern elves to be the result of centuries of slavery.
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Post by Iddy on Sept 7, 2016 2:00:03 GMT
I wish they had kept the DA2 elf look, the background characters were horrific but the plot relevant ones looked alright. A bit crazy with the make-up sometimes but that's DA for you. It needed tweaking- shorten the neck, broaden the shoulders a little but DAI elves have the same problems but now with added freaky skinning arms. Like the qunari DA2 elves looked like their own species, still humanish but not like BW just mucked about with the human model and called it a day. But the other reason I'd like the DA2 look to still be around is that it would have made such a great contrast to Solas and the temple guardians. I would have loved that half starved waif look of modern elves to be the result of centuries of slavery. You got a point there. Fenarel looked pretty good.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Sept 28, 2016 0:42:28 GMT
Interesting series of articles speculating from lore sources starts here: bsn.boards.net/thread/1350/intro-eravas-elven-gods-screwedI didn't write the content, I cross-posted it from Reddit. It's good stuff and thought folks here would like it. The series isn't strictly about elven lore, but it certainly bases a lot of conclusions on it.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 2, 2016 12:31:36 GMT
I've been spending some time reading the sections of the Chant of Light in World of Thedas 2 trying to glean from it what Andraste really taught as opposed to what Drakon and his tame Divine Justinia 1 decided should be the interpretation. I was going through the Canticle of Shartan for the umpteenth time, newly reinserted by Leliana in my canon play through, and it suddenly struck me just how subversive it is. It always seemed odd to me that the Chantry would remove it from the Chant when on the face of it, showing the elves that Shartan supported Andraste would surely work in their favour in showing their captives that they should submit to the forces of the Maker. Then I realised that it probably came as a relief that they finally had an excuse to get rid of it because it actually undermines a lot of what they claim about Andraste and certainly what Drakon claimed about himself. It also explains why southern scholars are now at pains to try and prove that Shartan was never really a historical figure but merely a symbol or honorific title given to any rebel elf leader at the time of Andraste.
Let's deal with that last claim first. The scholars claims there are elements in the Canticle of Shartan that bear similarities to an earlier folktale about a "trickster warrior who fought against tyrants". Clearly this is suggesting a link with Fen'Harel; hence the idea often posted by people of Solas being Shartan. If you look at the first part of the Canticle, it could actually refer to any group of rebels fleeing their masters. Then the slaves start to regret their decision and suggesting they should go back and throw themselves at the feet of their former masters. I think this is the part where Shartan used a speech given by the trickster warrior to his followers in the earlier tale in order to inspire his own followers to keep fighting for their freedom. Hence the scholars pointing out the links between the two.
As for the differing accounts about where the revolt originated, that is likely founded in stories of the refugees arriving in Halamshiral, and why Hessarian finally allowed them their freedom. Whilst the Canticle of Shartan was removed from the Chant, Shartan was left in one small section of the following Canticle of Apotheosis, largely because he now had the honorific title of "the Liberator", which may be the Divine of the time did not associate with him or more likely was willing to overlook because most of the faithful would not appreciate the connection. When the humans armies failed Andraste and left her to her fate, the Liberator and a hundred of his people charged the pyre in an attempt to free her. The scholars make much of the affect of Andraste's quiet dignity in the face of death on the crowd but because of the prejudice against Shartan, never seem to have considered the affect of seeing Shartan and his elven soldiers defying the might of the Imperium on the watching slaves. Cynics among scholars have already suggested that Hessarian's conversion to the faith might have been political expediency because of the degree of unrest that Andraste's revolt had produced. I think his decision to finally allow the elven slaves to go free and seek out their promised land might well have been because it was becoming impossible to suppress the uprisings among the elven slave force, inspired by Shartan. When these elves reached their Halamshiral, they likely gave account of their own efforts to free themselves, giving credit to their inspiration. May be their leaders did take the title Shartan in order to inspire them. This would then account for why the location of the original historical Shartan's rebellion tended to vary according to which group of slaves recounted the tale. It should also be noted that whilst Hessarian freed that particular generation of elves, he didn't abolish slavery altogether, some elves remained or returned to be slaves of the Imperium and a new influx of human slaves soon made up the difference in numbers.
So that accounts for the scholars claim that Shartan was not a real historical figure. Now to move onto why the Canticle was included in the first place if it is so subversive. Kordillus' father, Septimus Drakon, was the non mage son of a Tevinter Altus, who made a political match in the south that increased his status there. His wife was elected Gothi or Queen of the Ciriane tribes and that gave her son, Kordillus, a useful base from which to build his power. The Maker had already been adopted as the official religion in Tevinter a hundred years before Septimus came south, so whatever beliefs were held by Tevinter at that time about Andraste would have come with him. According to Dorian, the Imperium have never considered Andraste as anything other than a mortal woman. By contrast, clearly some of the southern tribes did see her as the Bride of the Maker and thus semi-Divine, as evidence by the fertility cult of the Daughters of Song. Kordillus Drakon seemed to favour the Maker Bride interpretation and this was likely because of the way he wished to be viewed. He claimed to have a vision when Andraste charged him with his mission of spreading the faith. There was also a belief in the south at this time (as confirmed by the Guardian of the Shrine) that the Maker only ever spoke to Andraste. So to claim that the Maker had spoken to him might create problems. Yet he could not claim a divinely sanctioned mission if he had been spoken to by a mere mortal. Thus Andraste as the Maker's Bride became the official line of his interpretation of the faith.
The Chant was already being compiled by Justinia before she became Divine, the earliest date for which would be when Drakon was still a boy. She is also credited as having been the only woman general in his army. Whether she was already influencing him as a child before entering his army or whether she was actually part of his mother's forces that later joined his own, they seemed to have shared a similar vision, including the need to eradicate all versions of the faith that did not agree with their own. Having unified the tribes by the sword and founded his Chantry as the official cult of the Maker, only then did Justinia seek to include the story of Shartan into their official Chant. It would seem to have been the final section to be added and was transcribed by clerics from the elves' oral tradition at late as 1:8. If it was important, why had Justinia not bothered with it before? In view of the fact of how subversive the contents are to Drakon's claims, why was it included at all? I think the answer lies in the fact that it was included for political reasons because Drakon knew that the elves were becoming increasingly unhappy about what he was doing in Orlais and at that time the elves were a force to be reckoned with and he could not afford to have hostile neighbours to the south because the 2nd Blight had begun only 3 years previously. So in an attempt to persuade the elves that he was still their friend, he had Justinia acknowledge Shartan in the Chant. He managed to fool Ameridan but from what the latter says, many of his compatriots were less impressed, still viewing Drakon as "no better than Tevinter". Considering the bloodshed that had been committed among faithful followers of the Maker among the humans who had a different version of the faith to his own, I'm inclined to think their view of him was justified, particularly considering he was the grandson of a Tevinter Altus. No wonder the elves were unhappy about his empire building so close to their new homeland.
Finally, why the Canticle of Shartan is so subversive and thus, why I think it does reflect what the elves of the Dales truly believed about Andraste and Shartan at that time. Bear in mind also that scholars admit that they think the modern Canticle is incomplete and there are verses missing, so even today this may be less controversial than it could have been. After Shartan's motivational speech and defeat of the pursuing legion of the Imperium, the Canticle gives an account of Shartan's meeting with Andraste. The elves hear the approach of Andraste's army and Shartan initially goes to investigate alone. He is taken before Andraste and she invites him to tell his story but he refuses until he knows that all his people have been brought to safety. When they have joined him and been given food and drink, Shartan recounts the tale of their uprising and flight. When he has finished Andraste declares:
"Truly, the Maker has called you, just as He called me, to be a Light for your People."
Let me emphasise the significance of this declaration. Andraste recognises Shartan as her equal in the eyes of the Maker. He is to be the Light for his People (the elves), just as she is a Light to her people, the barbarian hordes. She specifically says the Maker called Shartan just as he called her. That means that if Andraste was the Maker's chosen, so was Shartan. It also makes it clear that contrary to later Chantry propaganda, the elves are not inferior in the Maker's eyes. Not only that but if Shartan and his followers honoured their old elven gods as well as the Maker, apparently Andraste did not seem to have objection to this. Of course the gods that the elves honoured were depicted as benign guides and teachers to their followers, rather as the "gods" (spirits) among the Avaar, an offshoot of the Alamaari tribes, to which Andraste belonged. The gods that Andraste specifically targets are those that usurped the Maker's place and even insisted that people reject he Maker before they would help them. In any case, the elves admit that their gods no longer answered them. So really they are just honouring what they stood for, family, community, loyalty to one another, which are things that the Maker seems to support too.
Then Andraste says to Shartan: "The host before you march, bearing His will north, where we shall deliver it to Minrathous, city of magisters, and we will tear down the unassailable gates, and set all slaves free."
Note that in this declaration Andraste actually says nothing about spreading the Chant or even about worshipping the Maker. The Maker's will is that they should set all slaves free. So if Drakon had really been authorised by Andraste, his crusade should have been to complete her work of freeing the slaves, not spreading his Chant.
Then Shartan replies: "The People will set ourselves free. Your host from the South may march alongside us."
Once again Shartan is depicted as Andraste's equal, their armies matching together as an alliance of equals under their respective generals, not her disciple following in her wake. It harks back to the shade of Shartan in the Gauntlet saying "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Shartan may not be subservient to Andraste or entirely in accord with all of her beliefs but they share a common goal of freedom for their respective peoples and both seem to recognise that is what is important.
Andraste confirms this when she declares: "It is done. We march as one." This is the point where the scholars think some passages have been lost, so the story fast forwards to the Battle of the Valarian Fields. As they engage in the fighting there is a great hymn coming from the united army. What does it sing of? "Those who had been slaves were now free". Again the struggle is for freedom, not simply singing the praises of the Maker.
Then comes the critical point in the battle, when the mages of the Imperium have Andraste and her commanders cut off from their forces by walls of ice and there is a danger of them being massacred. At which point, the elves are rallied by Shartan to break the walls of ice with arrows of fire, freeing Andraste and her warriors to escape the potential carnage, going on to win the day. The story makes it clear that they were "penned like cattle for slaughter" before Shartan intervened, so his presence was critical to the victory.
Then Andraste stands before Shartan and shouts "Behold! Our Champion!" At which point she gives him the fabled sword Glandivalis, that had once belonged to her mother. Since her mother was also likely a Gothi of the Ciriane, this sword may have a significance beyond simply its name. It may actually be her symbol of her right to rule. Nevertheless its name is significant enough. There is an ancient tablet that is found in the Temple of Mythal that seems to have been written in the aftermath of the raising of the Veil, speaking of the new troubling freedom to which the elves are committed. There is a line which says, "when we could no longer believe" (in the gods I assume). Still the important part is the word for believe, "glandival", the stem of Glandivalis. This would suggest that the sword's name either means "Believer" or possibly "Blade of the Faith". Could the belief that it refers to also be the cause of freedom? This might well be the case because when she gives the sword to Shartan, she says:
"Take this, my champion and free our people forever."
A few things to note here. First, it would account for why Shartan put his alliance with Andraste, the belief in friendship and unity in the cause of freedom, above his own survival when he attempted to rescue her. It also seems to bestow the title of Champion of Andraste/Freedom on Shartan in perpetuity, or at least upon whoever inherits the sword from him. That being the case, then why would Andraste bestow the title "Blade of the Faith" on Drakon, particularly when the faith is in freedom?
At the very beginning of the Chant, the Maker is dissatisfied with his first children when all they do is stand around praising his name. The Maker required belief demonstrated through action. Everything about the Canticle of Shartan seems to show that the belief that united Andraste and Shartan was one of universal freedom. Which is why Andraste would not lay down her arms as Maferath wished, having conquered the south. You could argue that since Hessarian converted the entire Imperium to the Chant only ten years later, at that time the entire world did in fact have a shared belief in the Maker. So if that was all that concerned the Maker, the aim had been accomplished. However, according to the Canticle of Shartan simply converting to belief in the Maker had never been the aim. The will of the Maker will only be fulfilled when all the slaves are finally free.
No wonder neither Chantry has wanted to acknowledge Shartan since that time. For the southern Chantry it repudiates everything they claim about Drakon and their own divine mandate. For the Imperial Chantry it stands as a challenge to their professed belief in the Maker.
The Maker is said to have instructed Andraste: "To My children venture, carrying wisdom, if they but listen, I shall return." Andraste acknowledged that Shartan was her equal, having been called for the same reason as her, to be a light of hope for his people. The wisdom of the Maker is a message of Freedom. The Maker is still waiting.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 3, 2016 21:01:36 GMT
I wish they had kept the DA2 elf look, the background characters were horrific but the plot relevant ones looked alright. A bit crazy with the make-up sometimes but that's DA for you. It needed tweaking- shorten the neck, broaden the shoulders a little but DAI elves have the same problems but now with added freaky skinning arms. Like the qunari DA2 elves looked like their own species, still humanish but not like BW just mucked about with the human model and called it a day. But the other reason I'd like the DA2 look to still be around is that it would have made such a great contrast to Solas and the temple guardians. I would have loved that half starved waif look of modern elves to be the result of centuries of slavery. Eh, DA2 went to far in changing the elves. I mean, I can appreciate wanting to make them look not-human, but ...wow...give them a more lavender skin tone and they'd look like elves from WoW.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 14, 2016 18:35:13 GMT
Do you think they are going to show that the real Arlathan (as opposed to the one Tevinter thought they sank) is some form of elven Atlantis? The reason I ask is the song by Maryden in Trespasser, Mercy for the Elves. She sings: "Arlathan fell, so deep unto the ocean floor". This is odd because whilst the Dalish believe that Tevinter sank the city, it was beneath the earth and thus likely still beneath Arlathan Forest. That is the story given in World of Thedas too.
However, there is a legend of the Alamarri that has the city of the gods being raised into the sky (the Fade after the Veil) whilst they also believe another part was drowned beneath water. They think this is Lake Calenhad, as fitting their location, but they seem to have mixed in some old elven legends with their own Where the Willows Wail, an Alamarri folk song, has its origins in a much earlier elven lament, the text for which is found in the Temple of Mythal. So it is possible that the story of the splitting of the home of the gods is something they got from elven lore too or simply seeing a depiction of the event in old cave paintings. So the Arlathan that sank to the ocean floor was the earthly part of the real city that was sundered from the rest when Solas created the Veil and sank beneath the ocean as a result.
If you look at the Nocen Sea it does look like something should have originally been there as even if you think Seheron was once part of the mainland and split away, it still wouldn't fill the entire area.
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Post by cloud9 on Nov 11, 2016 20:31:10 GMT
The Ancient Elves are related to one of the greatest civilizations in ancient history such as Indus River Valley, Sumer, Mesopotamia, the Olmecs, and Nile River Valley civilization. And Arlathan is nothing but fan made version of Ancient Egypt and the pantheon.
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Post by Walter Black on Nov 18, 2016 22:50:44 GMT
I wish they had kept the DA2 elf look, the background characters were horrific but the plot relevant ones looked alright. A bit crazy with the make-up sometimes but that's DA for you. It needed tweaking- shorten the neck, broaden the shoulders a little but DAI elves have the same problems but now with added freaky skinning arms. Like the qunari DA2 elves looked like their own species, still humanish but not like BW just mucked about with the human model and called it a day. But the other reason I'd like the DA2 look to still be around is that it would have made such a great contrast to Solas and the temple guardians. I would have loved that half starved waif look of modern elves to be the result of centuries of slavery. Agreed. For all it's faults, Dragon Age 2's Elven design at least tried to look like a separate species, rather than just pointy eared humans .
You still make this claim, despite almost none of the designs of Dragon Age Elves reflecting it? In Elvhenan language, architecture, clothing, art and the like, I've seen influence from the Celts, Scandinavia, Roma, Jews, Asian Indians, Japanese, and even some Cheyenne and Sioux, but nothing African or Middle Eastern. Can you show specific examples, that do not also reflect any other cultures? I would love to be proven wrong, if you can.
Look, I'll be the first to admit modern genre fantasy desperately needs more non-European influences. New ideas, rather than retreading the same old ones. But as far as how the Dragon Age universe actually portrays Elves, all I see are the modern day equivalent of the Fair Folk, Aes Sidhe and Tuatha De Denann.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 19, 2016 14:56:40 GMT
Okay for anyone interested, here are my current theories about the ancient elves.
They began as spirits, the First Children of the Maker. When the Maker realised that there was nothing to motivate them in a world that was nothing more than the Fade, he created the material (unchanging) world. The moment spirits crossed from the Fade to the Unchanging World they became affected by it and took on material form themselves. In fact much of the material world had an innate spirit (the Lady of the Forest in DAO had existed as part of the forest since its planting by the elves which must have taken place before the Veil). Each of the original Evanuris was in fact a nature spirit that became more material: Elgar'nan was the spirit of the sun/light; Mythal was the sea/water; Andruil was earth/forest; Sylaise was fire; Dirthamen and Falon'Din twin spirits of the air, whilst June was a manifestation of the creative spirit itself.
Just as with nature itself these beings could be both creative and destructive but initially they were more focussed on their creative/guiding aspect as more and more spirits crossed into the material world to join them. Mythal in particular was engaged in creating the settlements in which they dwelt, which bridged the reality between the Fade and Material side. At some point their magical activities aroused/angered the deep earth spirits known to us as Titans. This resulted in destruction of their creations and earned the ire of Elgar'nan in particular but also the rest of the Evanuris. They went to war on the Titans and this brought out the destructive side of their nature. Mythal either killed or subdued the Titans, freeing the dwarves that were their "children" from their thrall. This also resulted in the discovery of lyrium that gave the Evanuris even more power. At this point the other elvhen started to revere them as gods.
The structure of elvhen society would appear to have been Evanuris at the top, then their priesthood who willingly bound themselves to the service of a particular "god", the nobility who were likely granted power by their "gods" as a result of their freely given loyalty and finally the majority of elvhen who were servants/slaves (depending on your point of view), marked with the symbol of the god/priest/noble group that they served.
In addition to the ruling gods, there would appear to have been a number of dissident powerful elvhen, who are now known variously as the Forbidden Ones (having been banished by Elgar'nan for not helping in the war against the Titans) and the Forgotten Ones, who it would seem refused to acknowledge the authority of the Evanuris over them. In addition there was Fen'Harel, who originally would appear to have been a servant/follower/guardian of Mythal (possibly an arcane warrior since their job was to guard the nobility). It is not clear exactly when he joined the ranks of the rebels (before or after Mythal's death) but he quickly became their figurehead. The death of Mythal certainly prompted him to take direct action against the Evanuris and it is possible that the Forbidden/Forgotten Ones may have aided him in this or simply took advantage of the situation during the chaos that followed. Whatever the case, Fen'Harel raised the Veil, brought about the destruction of much of what the Evanuris had built and set the scene for the development of modern Thedas.
From the timeline given in World of Thedas and in the Keep, it would seem that humans did arrive on the scene before the raising of the Veil, which could account for why the memories of the elves became confused over their culpability for what followed.
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Post by javeart on Nov 19, 2016 15:56:51 GMT
Ok, I managed to summarised (more or less) all the questions I still have about the elven gods to see what good theories are there nowadays about them, now that all the dlc are out and that there have been a lot of time to speculate. I've been of for a long time and I don't know much about lore, so I don't know if I might be missing something crucial or if some of my theories (well, guesses more than theories, actually) are totally debunked by now. - The nature of the elven gods: are the just powerfull mages? abominations (half spirits, half corporeal beings)? spirits turned into corporeal beings like Cole? I always thought it would be the second (not much to sustain it), but the third sounds good to. - Dragons. Are they dragons? Are they spirits inhabiting dragons? Are there just pieces of them that survived in the dragons? Are they just shapeshifters trapped in their dragon form? Of course, I'm assuming that archdeamons = eleven gods. Personally I'm betting in pieces of them that survived in dragons, because dragons are more resistant to the blight, again, with not much to sustain it xD - Inmortality. So, all ancient elves where inmortals (as in not aging), but they were somehow harder to kill. Because they put pieces of themselves everywhere, just because they were very strong or because something else? - The Void. I totally bougth the theory that the blight comes from the void, which makes me think the void somehow it's the underground. Absurd? Better alternatives? I definitely don't know how blighted dragons in the undergroun relate to gods trapped outside the fade thanks to the veil. Maybe it's simply that one thing has nothing to do with the other xD elven gods are trapped thanks to the veil somehow, dragon with pieces of them still live n the underground... Ok, here I'm very lost, evidently xD - The titans. I'm wondering if they might come up with a war between elven gods and titans, as a parallel to the war between olympic gods and titan of greek mythology. That might be the war of which Solas speaks in Trespasser, the one that turned generals into respected elders, and into kings and then gods??? - Mythal. She is definitely dead this time, right? I thought she might just be part of Solas now, as she was part of Flement, but Solas says he killed her, no? - Andraste. Solas was the Maker, the one spoke to her in dreams. I always liked this theory, I think it makes sense. Not so sure about the theory of him being Shartan, supposedly he's been sleeping this whole time?? I think this is all.. at least for now ;P All the corrections you can make me, or every theory or guess you have it's very wellcome edit: gervaise21, sorry, writing in english sometimes takes me forever, xDDD your post wasn't there where I started xDDD I'm reading it now, I'm sure there's a lot there about my questions
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Post by javeart on Nov 19, 2016 16:21:34 GMT
Ok, a few doubts: you think all elfs were materiaized spirtis, so to speak, or only the evanuris? I always have associated evanuris to spirits (as abominations or materializations), but I've always thought of them in terms of the spiritis that appear in the game, probably conditioned by the fact that Solas means Pride. I could totally see Mythal as being Justice and Elgar'nan being Wrath, though I've no ideas for any other xD Of course, that would mean that they were not the "first" f the elfs literally, because what emotions would they be mirroring then? they'd be the first only figuratively I completely buy the Titans-Elven God war. I think it makes sense too that dwarf are the creation of the Titans, I think Cole has a line in trepasser about creatures made of the the earth, but it seem that without the consent of the eart... Those may be the dwarfs, made by titans out of earth? And what surprises me it's that you dont't think Solas was an equal to the elven gods but a guardian? I also never got the feeling that he could be an arcane warrior when I talk about my specialization with him (I usually go with KE), I don't get the feeling he's talking about himself (which is hardly an obstacle to your theory, just a personal impression) Also, I have no theories whatsoever for the Forbidden Ones and the Forgotten Ones, but it's true, there has to be a reason why their even mentioned. Couldn't it be, as if often happens, that we may already know the Forgotten Ones by another names? It not be very thrilling, but they might be the same that the forbbiden ones, after all, though the Forgotten Ones souns more powerfull that what the Forbidden Ones turned out to be
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 19, 2016 20:54:22 GMT
The reason I suggest the Evanuris were really primordial nature spirits is because that gets over the problem of needing emotions for them to define themselves by. I think spirits identifying with emotions came later, may be even after the Veil when they could not longer interact directly with the material world but only with the minds of the creatures that were there. Back before the Veil, spirits could cross over as they wished and could interact directly with whoever or whatever they found there. When talking about the Fade, one of the memories from the Ancient Library talks of how "those who have never manifested outside the Fade will find it easier to find its stillest roots". This is clearly talking about spirits and also that some of them obviously have manifested outside of the Fade. Then it goes on to speak of "our brethren of the air" in reference to these spirits that have never manifested outside the Fade. You do not usually call someone "brethren" unless they have a close kinship to you. The fact that these Fade spirits are "of the air" seems to confirm that they have never come into contact with the earth of the material world and this has allowed them to remain pure spirits. Bear in mind also that the Fade is seen as being the Sky (that was held back by the Veil) and also Solas regards spirits as People and yet modern races are not.
It is also interesting to note that the spirit that interacts with us in the Ancient Library is in fact split into several pieces. This ability to be split so that you can be in more than one place at the same time is something that we also know Flemeth/Mythal can do. Which is why she may not necessarily be dead/gone in the literal sense, any more than she was after we "killed" her in DAO. I think this ability to be able to split the essence into more than one piece was something common to all the Evanuris and the secret of their immortality, just as it was for Corypheus and his dragon. Personally I think this could be why Solas was beside himself at the prospect of the Wardens going after the last two dragon gods, because they are linked in some way to the trapped Evanuris.
I think originally the Neromenians merely called normal spirits into a dragon (like the Hakkonites did) in order to have their "god" lead them into battle, although the knowledge for this process may well have been given them by the Evanuris or the Forgotten Ones talking to them from the Fade. However, the dragon that becomes an archdemon was always buried underground since the raising of the Veil and it may well be that the voices speaking to the Magisters that encouraged them to enter the Golden City was with the express intent of eventually freeing them (if it came from the Evanuris) or corrupting them (if it came from their enemies)
We have already met those named as Forbidden Ones. The group comprises Gaxkang (who we met in DAO), Xebenkeck (who we encountered in DA2) Imshael (who we encountered in DAI) and the Formless One (who we have yet to meet). These are clearly simply powerful spirits/demons but as suggested by Evanuris, are capable of taking form of their own in the material world independent of any other vessel.
The Forgotten Ones would appear to be a separate group. We have encountered one, Gelduran, in a codex near the Shrine of Razikale in JoH. Two others have also been named. There have been elves down the years who continued to worship them and it seems likely that some of these still exist in the Tirashan. We also know that Andruil attempted to hunt them down in the Void, which seems their natural home. This would fit with their identification as gods of terror, malice, spite and pestilence, since the Void is an anti-life sort of place, a sort of counterpoint to the Fade. When arch demons use magic, they draw their power from somewhere other than the Fade. I think this is likely the Void. Whether this is because the actual Evanuris are now corrupted by the Void or the archdemons are in fact a manifestation of the Forgotten Ones is yet to be made clear. Whatever the case, arch demons magic is essentially Blight magic, which connects with the Void and Red Lyrium (which is lyrium corrupted by the Blight). I'm pretty sure it is this that Solas was trying to shut away when he imprisoned the Evanuris because otherwise he knew it would destroy the world. I also think he believes that the only way to cleanse the world of the Blight is to tear down the Veil and let it be cleansed with the fires of chaos, which is why he thinks there is no other way to save his People.
Modern elves are the descendants of elvhen who were born post-Veil and so whilst they have a signature in their blood that indicates their origins, successive generations outside the Veil has weakened their spiritual signature, making them closer to humans and dwarves whose origins were always in the material world, which is why Solas and Abelas do not acknowledge them as kin. It likely also explains why the offspring of an elf mating with another race always takes on the appearance of that race. Kossith, the ancestors of the qunari, were likely the result of some hybrid breeding progamme either by the Evanuris or the later Imperium.
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Post by javeart on Nov 20, 2016 13:19:01 GMT
The good thing in the theory of ancient elves being materialized spirits is that, as you say, it would hep to understand better a lot of the things Solas does and say at different points in the game I was leaning heavily towards this option lasi I played DAI, but then in Trespasser you found the book/memory that says about him that he's "a wanderer who knows much of the People and their spirits", and the ways that sentence separate the two, made me favor again the abomination theory. Then, I always remember Torpor saying about Feynriel and Anders "i't's rare to see two forgotten magics" and I think it coud be talking about evanuris (I realize that this association is as arbitrary as could possibly be xD) On the other hand, Solas tries to talk the young mage in Jaws of Hakkon into "releasing" the spirit, and that also made think he wouldn't do that if he himself was an abomination... and he does says to Cole he has seen materialized spirits before... Maybe back then, there were cases of both things, maybe there were abominations and spirits, maybe the evanuris where one thing and the forgotten ones were the other, or maybe other creatures that we haven't heard of, but the ancient elves were "normal" people... Evidently, I'm still confused xD As for the archdeamons, it's just that it fits so perfectly 7 trapped eleven gods and 7 trapped archdeamons, I can't help to think they have to be connected, even if they're not the same, but only keep pieces of them. It's true though, that the forgotten ones are the ones supposedly trapped in the void, and that blight comes from the void, so in that light it'd made sense if archdeamons were related to them instead... And I'm thinking now that it's probably not that the archdeamons are just only corrupted dragons that carry pieces of the evanuris, because it doesn't sound so terribly dangerous then just try to kill the two of them that are that left. Even if it's not the definitive solution because the evanuris would stil be alive, at least seems like a step forward, like killing Crypheus dragon. Maybe it's a trapp from the Forgotten Ones, Maybe it's just like some people say, that killing all the archdeamons would flood Thedas with darkspawn... In any case, I've enjoyed reading your theories about all this, thank you for sharing them, they're very elaborated and full of interesting ideas
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 20, 2016 16:04:34 GMT
One further small point. It may be that in former times the People could have a familiar spirit in the Fade to act as a conduit for magic or give advice in some way. In JoH Ameridan mentions briefly receiving advice from his spirit about how to deal with Hakkon, as though he consulted regularly with one. Even in modern Thedas there are spirit mediums, like Rhys, who have a great affinity with them and can call upon them for assistance, which is likely why Cole was originally drawn to him.
There is also the information in JoH about how the presence of a demon will cause great distress to a Dreamer. Telana was a Dreamer and seemed to suffer through being near Hakkon. Feynriel was troubled by demons but this was because he feared them and this seemed in his sleep. Once he grew in confidence the demons no longer troubled his sleep but I wonder how he fared in Tevinter with summoned demons. However, Solas did not seem at all bothered by the presence of Imshael if he goes with you on that quest, nor was Felassan at all troubled by him. Both of them were ancient elf Dreamers, which again makes me wonder if their resistance is due to the fact that they are closer in nature to the spirit.
It is also interesting that Solas says that doing blood magic blocks your connection to the Fade (or makes it more difficult) and in the Last Flight, Isseya is able to detect that Calian is not drawing his mana from the Fade and thus realises he is doing blood magic. Which makes me wonder what was going on in ancient Tevinter. It is claimed that Thalsian was the first of the human Dreamers but also the first to do blood magic, which would seem to be opposing abilities, unless Thalsian was not walking the Fade when he went into Dreamer mode but the Void.
It is also interesting that the original Grey Wardens were meant to have got their ideas for destroying Dumat from elven members of their organisation. Which would suggest that, at least at that time, the knowledge of the ancient elven mechanism for tricking death had not completely been lost. I do still tend to wonder how Solas never suspected that Corypheus, as a still surviving ancient elven Magister, might have discovered the secret of effective immortality. How else did he think he had lasted for so long? Plus he had been viewing the world from the Fade for years whilst asleep, yet never once caught on to why the Wardens needed the joining to kill archdemons (yet could apparently observe a baker in Par Vollen or a lonely spirit down in the frozen south with no touble at all).
Solas' inability to think ahead about the possible problems with his "unlocking the orb" plan is one of the main reasons that I get very sceptical(and afraid) when he says he "had plans" to deal with the freed Evanuris.
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