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Post by phoray on Dec 24, 2016 18:09:20 GMT
Phoray, I believe you were asking about my fan fiction. I have now posted my first effort on line but I don't know if you have found it yet. So I thought I would give you the link here: archiveofourown.org/works/8952415/chapters/20489572. As someone who is writing their own fan fiction with a lot of elven content, you probably will appreciate it. There are a lot of elves in it. *Cries a little bit inside* you are so much better at writing than I am. I will just have to try harder -grim-
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 24, 2016 19:46:21 GMT
I'm so sorry, I didn't mean for you to feel like that about it. I'd really like to read yours, so please let me know when you post it on-line. P.S. Never mind, I've found Ripples Across Thedas and I like it - different style to my own but there is nothing wrong with that.
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Post by phoray on Dec 29, 2016 19:58:29 GMT
I was tapping away at a possible eulogy for the elves that were lost between Arlathvhens by reading eulogies people have written for solidiers lost in war. Specifically because it isn't an individual but many, but also because they do mourn, a bit, the loss of their culture. But also because, in a way, the war has never stopped for the Dalish and I find that interesting.
Nothing deeper than that to relate today.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 29, 2016 20:29:26 GMT
I must admit that I wonder what happens when a large number of Dalish die in one place. According to their culture, a tree is planted over the grave of each person, which as Alistair says is a lovely custom to use the death in a positive way to create new life. However, there is a big danger in Thedas of spirits coming through and occupying the corpses of the deceased, particularly if they have had a violent death. I know Felassan commented when they were being attacked by possessed skeletons, that burning the dead is one of the humans better ideas. So I wondered if they might have to burn the dead from practicality and then perhaps just gather the ashes to use for planting the trees.
I found the Emerald Graves particularly moving in view of the Dalish custom for dealing with the dead. It was implied that the whole forest was a memorial to the elves who had died, particularly those who had died in defence of the Dales. The exchange between Lavellan and Scout Harding was particularly poignant when she is relating the custom and then Lavellan repeats the Dalish mantra. Then dear Harding apologies for speaking about it, sweetheart that she is. I was actually touched that she thought to mention it.
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Post by ellehaym on Dec 31, 2016 17:50:39 GMT
That seems most likely to me but it is a long way back from the Frostback Basin, so may be they were taken to different parts of Tevinter. The moment they indicated we would be going to Tevinter next game I immediately thought of the foci, particularly since Dorian actually discussed them with Solas. Originally I thought they might be in some vault in Minrathous but now I'm not so sure. I'll be surprised if finding at least one foci (or stopping Solas from finding it) is not part of the plot of the next game. I wonder if the Ancient Tevinter were able to create a rudimentary version of the Elvhen Orbs?
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 31, 2016 18:35:16 GMT
That is the conundrum; did they simply produce something, possibly using ancient elven texts, that looked like foci and reproduced something of their ability to focus magic but not to the extent of the real elven orbs, or did they actually discover hidden orbs at one point? The way in which they seem to embed them in walls of the shrine to amplify their spells when trying to connect to Razikale makes me think that it may well have been the way the elven priests amplified their spells. Was it a combination of the blood writing on their faces and the orb that allowed the followers of a particular god to be able to perform these great magical works that seemed to require huge numbers of elves to work in concert?
It is interesting to note that the constellation representing Toth, the Old God of fire, shows him with a flaming orb. Several of the constellations of old Tevinter seem to have put their own name onto something that was originally an elven depiction. So Tenebrium is meant to depict Lusacan but could also be Falon'Din, Equinor may have originally been a halla, then later a horse (which was more important to the Neromenians) and finally a griffon because of the importance they played in quelling Blights. So, leaving aside gender, Toth could originally have been Sylaise with a flaming orb.
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Post by ellehaym on Dec 31, 2016 19:25:53 GMT
I personally think that the Magister's holding an Orb that Dorian mentions seeing is probably a Tevinter recreation of an Ancient Elvhen artwork. That said, I do think that there were many Orbs left over (not sure if they were fully powered or black like those we see in Vir Dirthara). We know Tevinter took a lot of things from the Elves and made it their own. So I can see Magisters trying to recreate the Orbs based on what they read on Elvhen texts, slaves, ruins. That said isn't Razikale still imprisoned and not yet made into an Archdemon? I remember one Old God was located in the Hissing Wastes and the Wardens have tried and failed unsuccessfully into get near it to kill it. You can even jump down and die there to see a glimpse of it. So maybe Razikale is deep inside that place JoH?
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Post by phoray on Jan 1, 2017 1:48:34 GMT
Flemythal wanted the Archdemon to be destroyed. But Solas thinks it's all a foolhardy plan. ..
Seems like they'd be of one mind on this issue...
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Post by shechinah on Jan 1, 2017 2:45:45 GMT
Flemythal wanted the Archdemon to be destroyed. But Solas thinks it's all a foolhardy plan. .. Seems like they'd be of one mind on this issue... From what I can recall, Solas was objecting to the Wardens intending to seek out and kill the uncorrupted Old Gods. I don't remember if he extends the same objection to the Archdemons so it may be that I am mistaken and that he does. It is possible he does since I don't he was awake during the Fifth Blight and so he dosen't know just how devastating and dangerous a Blight is. Flemeth seems to have been around for far longer or, at least, she has the knowledge of someone who has so she'd know what the Blights are like.
While Flemeth wanted the Blight stopped and the Archdemon gone, she also wanted the soul of the Old God preserved. It may be that Solas would agree with this course of action more than he would with simply killing the Archdemons and thereby the souls of Old Gods.
I'm still holding to my theory that the Old Gods are the Forgotten Ones and that Solas either knows that it is them or he suspects it may be. It's been a while but I believe there was a codex that implied the form of a dragon was forbidden to all but those who were of the Evanuris. It's also said that while Fen'Harel shut away the Creators away in the heavens, he also shut away the Forgotten Ones in the abyss otherwise referred to as the void. If the Fade is the heavens then I think the abyss is the underground. I don't think Solas sealed away the Forgotten Ones or that if he did, it was likely when he was a part of the Evanuris.
Although that does leave the question of the Old Gods supposedly having wanted the ancient magisters to reach the golden city if they're actually underground in the Deep Roads. I'm still developing that part of my theory. If I recall correctly, it is said that the Old Gods are sleeping and that does make sense. I wonder if they were trying to reach the Evanuris by proxy and get revenge on them, possibly by bringing the taint to them?
Codex entry: Elven God Andruil has it that she began stalking the Forgotten Ones in the abyss and that when she returned, she was mad and plague ate her lands. I think she might have contracted the taint. If so then it seems that there is a cure for the taint. While that seems to already be the case, at least, I think if the taint has not spread too far or is spreading too quickly, I think Andruil's case seems to be far too severe.
Codex Entry: Elven God Andruil
"One day Andruil grew tired of hunting mortal men and beasts. She began stalking The Forgotten Ones, wicked things that thrive in the abyss. Yet even a god should not linger there, and each time she entered the Void, Andruil suffered longer and longer periods of madness after returning.
Andruil put on armor made of the Void, and all forgot her true face. She made weapons of darkness, and plague ate her lands. She howled things meant to be forgotten, and the other gods became fearful Andruil would hunt them in turn. So Mythal spread rumors of a monstrous creature and took the form of a great serpent, waiting for Andruil at the base of a mountain.
When Andruil came, Mythal sprang on the hunter. They fought for three day and nights, Andruil slashing deep gouges in the serpent's hide. But Mythal's magic sapped Andruil's strength, and stole her knowledge of how to find the Void. After this, the great hunter could never make her way back to the abyss, and peace returned.
—Translated from ancient elven found in the Arbor Wilds, source unverified"
Interestingly, there was a cult called the Empty Ones that worshipped the blight and considered the Void to be the birthplace of the blight. They basically believed that the blight was the wrath of the Maker for the betrayal and execution of Andraste. The name of the cult was because they considered themselves husks to be swept away by the Maker.
Codex Entry: The Empty Ones
"The Empty Ones were a small and short-lived cult based in Nevarra and known for worshipping the blight and, by extension, the darkspawn. Some confuse the Empty Ones with followers of Tevinter's Old Gods—a reasonable mistake since Archdemons are said to be tainted Old Gods. However, it is clear from the histories that the Empty Ones did not worship Dumat and his ilk, but the blight itself.
Following Andraste's death, many of her followers fell into a deep despair. They believed that the Prophet's betrayal and execution marked the beginning of the end of the world and that the Maker's wrath would soon come upon them. The most fatalistic of them all gathered together to prepare for their doom. They called themselves the Empty Ones, for they saw themselves as worthless husks, ready to be swept away by the Maker's hand.
It is unknown what passed then, but over time, the Empty Ones grew to believe that the blight was to be the tool by with the Maker would end all of creation. They preached that it came from the Void, a place of nothing, and that returning to the Void was something to be celebrated because it meant an end to all pain and all suffering.
Some mistakenly take this to mean that the Empty Ones worshipped evil, but that is an oversimplification. The Empty Ones believed the world to be beyond redemption, and that it was the Maker's will that it be destroyed completely. There are tales of Empty Ones scouring the Deep Roads, searching for darkspawn, whom they saw as the blight's prophets in order to assist them in bringing about the next Blight.
Predictably, the beginning of the Second Blight saw the end of the Empty Ones. The entire cult made its way to the Anderfels, where they stood in the path of the encroaching darkspawn and, singing in praise of the oblivion that was to overtake them, were consumed.
—From Before Andrastianism: The Forgotten Faiths, by Sister Rondwyn of Tantervale"
I rather like how the codexes and other in-universe informations we have of the past and events cannot be trusted and have to be considered through the lense of time. Not only is it realistic but I do admit that I find it to provide a rather enjoyable challenge when it comes to making and considering theories. There is some truth to be found in the accounts: the question is where in the account the truth lies and how much of said account is true.
Note: the codex entries are tagged as spoilers to reduce their size.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 1, 2017 12:55:15 GMT
The information about the priests of Razikale in the Frostback Basin was interesting not just because of the orbs but because their goddess had obviously fallen silent at this time. I've never been entirely clear whether the Old Gods fell silent before the assault on the Golden City or immediately after it. Bearing in mind that Minrathous is actually the original centre of Razikale worship, these priests seem to have travelled the length of Thedas, as far from their place of worship as it is possible to get, in order to try and re-establish contact. Two bits of writing are particularly striking:
"Those who should guide us instead wage war upon each other, vying for a throne that does not exist." (Could this be referring to the High Priests who went to the Golden City)
"Run if you can. Madness has filled the silence. Do not return to this place." (They had made a major blood sacrifice in an attempt to reach Razikale and evidently got some sort of response but not the one they were hoping for).
The codex from the slave of Corypheus in the Fade also seems to suggest that he went to the Golden City because Dumat had fallen silent. He speaks of him cutting himself ever more frequently, suggesting that the High Priests had a tradition of cutting themselves to contact their gods. So was the expedition not simply out of hubris but to find out why the gods had stopped communicating?
I wonder if the madness that the priests got in answer to their call was the corrupted call of the archdemon. Having read what the Architect says very carefully about when he found Urthemiel, it seems to me that it was already corrupted (hence him trying to do his modified joining on it) and he merely awoke it from its sleep. It doesn't make much sense really, knowing as we now do that dragons are very resistant to the taint, that a single touch from the Architect or a darkspawn would instantly corrupt the Old God and turn it insane. Surely that is something that would have occurred over time while it was sleeping. It would also account for why the song of the Old God attracts the darkspawn, because it is a tainted song, in the same way that red lyrium gives off a tainted song. After all, the Grey Wardens claim to know the location of the two surviving Old Gods, but how? If these creatures are untainted, how are Grey Wardens able to know where they are? Whereas if they are already corrupted in their prison then it makes sense that the Grey Wardens know where they are.
The codex about the dwarves finding the remains of an archdemon prison also indicate that the rock of the prison itself seemed to have been corrupted by the archdemon. Yet if it only became corrupted after the darkspawn made contact, then it would have left its prison almost immediately, so why would it have corrupted the surrounding stone so much? It seems more likely to me that the reason the darkspawn were able to dig through in the first place is that the stone had already been corrupted and weakened.
Flemeth definitely says the Blight is her enemy as much as it is to everyone else. Mythal stopped Andruil going to the Void because of the effect it was having on her and the plague it brought to her land. I wonder if the Evanuris hadn't started using red lyrium instead of the regular stuff or wanted to and Mythal ruled against them, so that is why they killed her. It does seem to have a detrimental to the sanity of anyone that comes into touch with it (just like the Void), emphasising their bad traits and encouraging treachery.
The Dalish refer to both the Blight and the place it originated as Banalhan, the "Place of Nothing", in other words the Void. The Blight definitely comes from the Void. It is the Void that the archdemon draws on for its magic. I think the reason why Flemeth/Mythal wanted to save the soul of the Old God is that it is the soul of a Creator, not a Forgotten One, and she is trying to do a rescue mission because she knows that the corruption of her fellow Evanuris was the work of their arch enemies, the Forgotten Ones, the gods of terror, malice, spite and pestilence. Honestly, doesn't that sum up exactly what the Blight is?
The codex of Gelduran is found beneath the place where the priests of Razikale were trying to make contact with their goddess. He speaks of biding his time until the pride of the Creators consumes them and then he will strike in mastery to claim a power of his own. That power was the Blight and releasing it on the world.
I also wonder if it was Falon'Din and not Solas who was the double agent. The prayer to him in the Temple of Mythal says that he "mastered the dark that lies" (Void/Forgotten Ones?), his "Shadows hunger" and his "faithful sing". Alternatively, if Solas was the double agent, then it was Mythal who instructed him to play that part.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 6, 2017 22:16:25 GMT
Here's a curious thing. Do you suppose that Ariane, the "Dalish" elf from Witch Hunt was really one of Solas' agents? I was watching through the key scenes again on You Tube and some oddities struck me.
First, she describes the Dalish as elves who have been wanderers for 2,000 years. That is completely inaccurate. The Dalish only got their name because the homeland they were given was called the Dales and they only became wanderers after they were conquered by Orlais, just under 700 years previously. So is she referring to the fact they have been wanderers since the time they became slaves? That would be closer in time but still out by 220 years. Go back 2,000 years and you are looking at the start of the Tevinter Imperium. In any case, what Dalish elf would say the "Dalish" had been wanderers for 2,000 years? They just wouldn't. They would say that they as "Elvhen" had been wanderers for that long.
Then she also says they have been wandering as "shadows" of their former selves since the fall of Arlathan. Whilst the Dalish claim correctly that their ancestors were all magical and immortal, I have never heard any Dalish refer to themselves as shadows of their former selves. The only person who did that was Abelas who said that the Dalish were "shadows wearing vallaslin".
There is also book on eluvians that she claims her clan had guarded since the days of Arlathan. That in itself would be peculiar considering no slave would have been able to conceal a book like that when they were captured. However, she then contradicts her story by saying that in fact it came into their possession via an apostate elven mage escaping the Circle. That seems more plausible considering such a book might have found its way into possession of the Circle. Still the citing of two different sources for their book would seem to suggest that neither may have actually been the truth.
Then there are other small details. Like the fact that her Keeper was apparently unable to translate the word "eluvian" when Finn was easily able to do so having obtained a book on elvish translation. He expresses surprise that her Keeper was unable to translate such a simple word. It might also be worth asking where the author obtained their knowledge to produce a book on elvish translation? I would suggest either Tevinter or the Dalish. If it came from Tevinter then they would have acquired their knowledge from elven captives, so likely to be something that would have been handed down among the slaves. Ariane is also wearing armour that looks very similar to the armour that we found in DAO in the ancient elven ruin and was described as ancient elven armour. Of course Ariane could have acquired her armour in a similar way, except she claimed the book was the only ancient relic of her people that her clan possessed. Plus every other Dalish we meet has been dressed in Dalish armour, apart from Cillian in DAI who was said to have spent many years meditating at an ancient elven shrine.
So could Ariane have been an agent of Solas, charged with tracking down Morrigan because she was taking altogether too much interest in eluvians? Or had been directed to the clan in the first place because he knew they had acquired the book. Admittedly she does very little when they catch up with Morrigan but then the need to keep from revealing too many spoilers does cause the writers to withhold information that people should otherwise know.
Finally, she says the name of her "Keeper" is Solan. Merely coincidence that this is so close Solas?
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Post by javeart on Jan 6, 2017 22:45:22 GMT
gervaise21I don't usually play Witch Hunt, so I can't recall the dialogue at all, but the way you put it makes sense. Seems likely that Solas had other agents, and they all probably present themselves as dalish, just as Felassan did. I'm not sure though if this mystery is ever going to be resolved, it could have been a door that the writters left open just in case it could come in handy in the future to introduce Solas story
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 7, 2017 19:56:11 GMT
Here's a curious thing. Do you suppose that Ariane, the "Dalish" elf from Witch Hunt was really one of Solas' agents? I was watching through the key scenes again on You Tube and some oddities struck me. First, she describes the Dalish as elves who have been wanderers for 2,000 years. That is completely inaccurate. The Dalish only got their name because the homeland they were given was called the Dales and they only became wanderers after they were conquered by Orlais, just under 700 years previously. So is she referring to the fact they have been wanderers since the time they became slaves? That would be closer in time but still out by 220 years. Go back 2,000 years and you are looking at the start of the Tevinter Imperium. In any case, what Dalish elf would say the "Dalish" had been wanderers for 2,000 years? They just wouldn't. They would say that they as "Elvhen" had been wanderers for that long. Then she also says they have been wandering as "shadows" of their former selves since the fall of Arlathan. Whilst the Dalish claim correctly that their ancestors were all magical and immortal, I have never heard any Dalish refer to themselves as shadows of their former selves. The only person who did that was Abelas who said that the Dalish were "shadows wearing vallaslin". There is also book on eluvians that she claims her clan had guarded since the days of Arlathan. That in itself would be peculiar considering no slave would have been able to conceal a book like that when they were captured. However, she then contradicts her story by saying that in fact it came into their possession via an apostate elven mage escaping the Circle. That seems more plausible considering such a book might have found its way into possession of the Circle. Still the citing of two different sources for their book would seem to suggest that neither may have actually been the truth. Then there are other small details. Like the fact that her Keeper was apparently unable to translate the word "eluvian" when Finn was easily able to do so having obtained a book on elvish translation. He expresses surprise that her Keeper was unable to translate such a simple word. It might also be worth asking where the author obtained their knowledge to produce a book on elvish translation? I would suggest either Tevinter or the Dalish. If it came from Tevinter then they would have acquired their knowledge from elven captives, so likely to be something that would have been handed down among the slaves. Ariane is also wearing armour that looks very similar to the armour that we found in DAO in the ancient elven ruin and was described as ancient elven armour. Of course Ariane could have acquired her armour in a similar way, except she claimed the book was the only ancient relic of her people that her clan possessed. Plus every other Dalish we meet has been dressed in Dalish armour, apart from Cillian in DAI who was said to have spent many years meditating at an ancient elven shrine. So could Ariane have been an agent of Solas, charged with tracking down Morrigan because she was taking altogether too much interest in eluvians? Or had been directed to the clan in the first place because he knew they had acquired the book. Admittedly she does very little when they catch up with Morrigan but then the need to keep from revealing too many spoilers does cause the writers to withhold information that people should otherwise know. Finally, she says the name of her "Keeper" is Solan. Merely coincidence that this is so close Solas? Making Ariane an agent of Fen'Harel would be a waste, in my opinion. I thought she was a nice example of the Dalish - intelligent, capable, wary of both the templars and the Chantry controlled Circles of Magi over what they did to the Dales (she also protected her clan from a templar before). She does say that the Circles stole a lot of elven artifacts after they helped defeat the Dales, which would explain Finn having access to such a book. I would have preferred seeing her as a companion in Inquisition, perhaps with Merrill as the arcane expert (given that she actually studied elven history and magic for years).
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 7, 2017 22:19:38 GMT
I'm not saying I want them to make her an agent of Fen'Harel. I'd prefer her to be just a straight forward intelligent Dalish. It was just the contradictions and inaccuracies in her story, which no true Dalish would get wrong, that made me wonder if it was deliberate foreshadowing of Felassan. So you don't realise it at the time but can look back and see it.
Mind you a whole lot of the previous history of the Dalish doesn't make much sense now in the light of the revelations by Abelas concerning the fall of the empire and Solas regarding the raising of the Veil. The Dalish's own stories are fairly accurate considering they admit they are not sure about the legend of Fen'Harel, which was pretty much spot on when it comes to the disappearance of their gods and the subsequent downfall of their empire as a result. However, the timelines we have previously been given make no sense at all. The city Tevinter destroyed was at least 2000 years after the elven civil war surrounding the death of Mythal. That was long enough for a remnant civilisation to have recovered and re-established itself, which is what the city appears to have done. They may have been a "shadow" of what they once were but they were more than just a carcass being picked over by carrion birds.
If we are going to Tevinter, I really hope we are going to get to the bottom of what exactly the settlement was that Tevinter discovered in Arlathan Forest even if it wasn't the actual city of Arlathan in its glory days. After all Tevinter definitely destroyed something there and captured thousands of elves as a result. Apparently many of the refugees sought sanctuary in Cad'Halash and the Kal Sharok destroyed the thaig in retribution. We were originally told that the eluvians were shut down at the time of the fall of Arlathan (this city) and yet Morrigan later claims in DAI that the book she was reading stated differently, confirming as it did the version of history given by Abelas. Considering it would appear that anyone can gain access provided they appease a demon (Masked Empire) or simply have the right "key" (Morrigan and Qunari), may be they have been activated and shut down many times since the elven civil war but it would be nice to know for sure, since the history seems to have all too many inconsistencies from game to game and book to book. It does seem strange, in view of the use of Imshael in Masked Empire that Tevinter apparently had captured several eluvians and yet never figured out how to get them to work properly. All Imshael wanted was someone to make a choice and originally that appeared to be nothing more than who should be sacrificed in a blood magic ritual - that had Tevinter written all over it.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 7, 2017 22:46:16 GMT
I'm not saying I want them to make her an agent of Fen'Harel. I'd prefer her to be just a straight forward intelligent Dalish. It was just the contradictions and inaccuracies in her story, which no true Dalish would get wrong, that made me wonder if it was deliberate foreshadowing of Felassan. So you don't realise it at the time but can look back and see it. Mind you a whole lot of the previous history of the Dalish doesn't make much sense now in the light of the revelations by Abelas concerning the fall of the empire and Solas regarding the raising of the Veil. The Dalish's own stories are fairly accurate considering they admit they are not sure about the legend of Fen'Harel, which was pretty much spot on when it comes to the disappearance of their gods and the subsequent downfall of their empire as a result. However, the timelines we have previously been given make no sense at all. The city Tevinter destroyed was at least 2000 years after the elven civil war surrounding the death of Mythal. That was long enough for a remnant civilisation to have recovered and re-established itself, which is what the city appears to have done. They may have been a "shadow" of what they once were but they were more than just a carcass being picked over by carrion birds. If we are going to Tevinter, I really hope we are going to get to the bottom of what exactly the settlement was that Tevinter discovered in Arlathan Forest even if it wasn't the actual city of Arlathan in its glory days. After all Tevinter definitely destroyed something there and captured thousands of elves as a result. Apparently many of the refugees sought sanctuary in Cad'Halash and the Kal Sharok destroyed the thaig in retribution. We were originally told that the eluvians were shut down at the time of the fall of Arlathan (this city) and yet Morrigan later claims in DAI that the book she was reading stated differently, confirming as it did the version of history given by Abelas. Considering it would appear that anyone can gain access provided they appease a demon (Masked Empire) or simply have the right "key" (Morrigan and Qunari), may be they have been activated and shut down many times since the elven civil war but it would be nice to know for sure, since the history seems to have all too many inconsistencies from game to game and book to book. It does seem strange, in view of the use of Imshael in Masked Empire that Tevinter apparently had captured several eluvians and yet never figured out how to get them to work properly. All Imshael wanted was someone to make a choice and originally that appeared to be nothing more than who should be sacrificed in a blood magic ritual - that had Tevinter written all over it. There are plenty of inaccuracies and inconsistencies in Dragon Age. Malcolm Hawke, for example, has no less than three different 'histories and escapes' from Kirkwall; Sebastian veers from thinking the Dalish should be converted to the 'Light' to suggesting that perhaps they simply worship the Maker in a different form. Bioware simply isn't good at consistency because they don't really plan ahead (the main difference between their claims and what we actually see as the result of their inability to plan ahead, as also evidenced by the Epilogue slides of Origins being mostly tossed out the window as a result of them contradicting those outcomes). It's also why Gaider said that the Dalish lived longer the more generations they live away from humans, and then Inquisition establishing that humans weren't the reason behind the elves no longer being immortal (which contradicts what Gaider said). It's even why the Chantry's official stance on the Maker from game to game seems to have shifted. Dragon Age isn't the best series when examining long-term consistency.
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 14, 2017 0:40:42 GMT
So what kind of Elven Companions do you think we will get in DA4? I know it's still years off, but I think it's still fun speculate. Maybe even give some of the writers ideas?
Want
Since most of our Elven Companions were rogues or mages (Fenris was two hander and Arienne primarily dual wielded), an Elven Warrior who swords n' boards would be refreshing change of pace. S/he could be a Champion, Spirit Warrior, or something new, as I don't see traditional Templars anywhere near Tevinter. They could be an Emerald Knight, ancient Elf, or something unique to that character.
Another Ancient Arlathani Elf could be cool, provided they are properly contrasted with Solas in that we (mostly) know who they are from the beginning. Also, it would be better if they just woke up; for added culture shock, and greater opportunities for the player to influence them one way or another. If our other Elven Companion* is Dalish, that could lead to some heated banter. It's possible such a Companion could be an Evanarus, but I would prefer if they were servant/priest like Abelas (but not actually Abelas, since he can die).
A half Elven Human who, in contrast to Sera, wants to reconcile their Human and Elven worlds. Or they actively prefer Creator worship. Could lead to heavy character development when pure Elves accuse them of cultural appropriation, or even "breeding them out". The halfbreed's determination could also be tested when they must "pass" as fully Human.
Do not want
I'll have to disagree with lobselvith8 on a completely pro-Dalish hero. Lorewise, there are little to no Dalish in Tevinter except slaves, and I'd rather any slave Companions we get not be another Fenris. In my experience, characters who are heavily faction based are not as interesting as the ones whose identities are unique to them. Take Fallout 4 for example; more often than not, Paladin Danse and Preston Garvey tended to be mouth pieces for their respective factions, rather than fully formed characters in their own right. Deacon had personality beyond the Railroad, but it's arguable if we actually met the "real" Deacon. I'm not saying a pro-Dalish couldn't work, just that the writers would have to give them enough story hooks apart from the Dalish to interest me. Maybe a deep cover agent, but is that truly a "proud" Dalish hero?
Also, I don't want any Viddathari Elves. I'm not a Talis hater, and if the writers bring her back I'd rather they give her development rather keep her as she was. Or worse, let the players dump on her for "revenge". Gatt has potential, but would have to be upgraded. I would like a non-Kossith Qunari Companion, but Elven ones have a "been there, done that" vibe. Admittedly, this is less about Elves and more that I want a Tal-Vashoth Saarebas Kossith (preferably female), and they could provide nice banter with a Viddathari Companion.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 14, 2017 1:28:45 GMT
A half Elven Human who, in contrast to Sera, wants to reconcile their Human and Elven worlds. Or they actively prefer Creator worship. Could lead to heavy character development when pure Elves accuse them of cultural appropriation, or even "breeding them out". The halfbreed's determination could also be tested when they must "pass" as fully Human. Wouldn't a change of pace be to have a pro-elven companion? Sera and Solas were anti-Dalish, as were a myriad of Andrastian characters all around us. The only pro-Dalish character you really had was you, and that was entirely optional. There wasn't much when it came to Andrastian elves (when the storyline involving Briala was fairly brief), and even the Dales focused almost exclusively on Andrastian humans. Do not wantI'll have to disagree with lobselvith8 on a completely pro-Dalish hero. Lorewise, there are little to no Dalish in Tevinter except slaves, and I'd rather any slave Companions we get not be another Fenris. Lore-wise, there are Dalish in Tevinter territory: Although I'd wager that the Dalish would be living outside Tevinter proper given their apparent role as adversaries to members of the Imperium. In my experience, characters who are heavily faction based are not as interesting as the ones whose identities are unique to them. Take Fallout 4 for example; more often than not, Paladin Danse and Preston Garvey tended to be mouth pieces for their respective factions, rather than fully formed characters in their own right. Deacon had personality beyond the Railroad, but it's arguable if we actually met the "real" Deacon. I'm not saying a pro-Dalish couldn't work, just that the writers would have to give them enough story hooks apart from the Dalish to interest me. Maybe a deep cover agent, but is that truly a "proud" Dalish hero? In regards to Fallout 4, I think Bethesda took the right approach: no favoritism. For some folks who like the Dalish, playing Inquisition can be a real chore. In Fallout 4, that's not the case. Companions had different feelings and views on the different factions. None of the main factions were one-dimensional caricatures or outright villainous. Side with the Brotherhood of Steel? You have to deal with the Railroad, but they aren't turned into villains to make you feel easier about your decision, or vice versa if you side with the Railroad and are positioned against the Brotherhood (unlike the Mage-Templar plot in Inquisition). You have to make tough choices in Fallout 4 because you're ideologically opposed to people who aren't evil but simply believe that 'the right thing' is something entirely different than you. As for Danse, I felt that he had character; he suffered the loss of his close friend Cutler (which poisoned his views on certain folks), he believed in Maxson's dream of saving the denizens of the wasteland, he spoke quite eloquently when you take him to the 'treasure of Jamaica Plains' or when you have the opportunity to protect the child Billy from slavers. Preston was more of an issue with Minutemen being woefully underdeveloped as a faction and the character being positioned as a never-ending source of quests that easily became annoying because you couldn't refuse them. Deacon was a product of the environment of the Railroad; trust no one. It's tied to the history of the clandestine organization, and why he's still alive when so many others are now dead. Also, I don't want any Viddathari Elves. I'm not a Talis hater, and if the writers bring her back I'd rather they give her development rather keep her as she was. Or worse, let the players dump on her for "revenge". Gatt has potential, but would have to be upgraded. I would like a non-Kossith Qunari Companion, but Elven ones have a "been there, done that" vibe. Admittedly, this is less about Elves and more that I want a Tal-Vashoth Saarebas Kossith (preferably female), and they could provide nice banter with a Viddathari Companion. I can't imagine a free qunari roaming around the Imperium proper. Maybe operating on the fringe of Tevinter society, perhaps.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2017 2:45:00 GMT
Well we've already had a dalish elf companion and Tevinter slave companion in DA:2. Though I would like a companion that counter act the whole "Dalish are shit" sentiment. How about a free elf in Tevinter, like Fenris's sister? I certainly would like to have an anti-Sera city elf character, one who doesn't despise elves and elven culture. Really, we haven't gotten a proper city elf companion. Sera was raised by a human noble, not in an alienage, and Zevran was raised by the Crows. Give me a Shianni character.
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 14, 2017 2:51:19 GMT
Despite being an exile, Merril was pro-Dalish. A newly awakened Arlathani Elf, while not Dalish, could still initially be pro-Elven. My original point here is that we have never had an acknowledged elf-blooded human as a Companion. Alistair never found out, and was likely a retcon anyway. For non-Companions, Slim Couldry might have been, but that's only fan speculation. Feynriel could have been intriguing, but was all too brief and his paths too divergent. Michel de Chevin hated his Elven side. What I would like is character who is torn between two worlds, not just ideologically but racially as well. Someone whose very existence challenges every perceived notion of race, culture, and identity in Thedas. Someone who doesn't think you should have to be forced to choose one or the other. The Masked Empire and Trespasser showed that certain kinds of magic affects humans and elves differently, so having a halfbreed in our party could give multiple outcomes to some situations. Gameplay and Story Integration for a change . Beyond the obvious biracial and multi-faith identity issues, this could be a unique take on the Changeling Myth.
I still have a hard time picturing them anything other than faction reps first, and Followers second. They don't really have much lives outside their respective groups, and you can't convince any to betray them or work toward any kind of alliance (excluding the Brotherhood). A personal pet peeve of mine, faction mechanics in traditional RPGs being so fixed and arbitrary. Definitely one thing I prefer about New Vegas, that you can form your own faction and still be a good guy .
Just like an uncontrolled Golem couldn't roam free in Orzimmar and Denerim? A rotting zombie in Amarantine? Mages and a glowing Elf in Kirkwall? True, our Inquisition Companions weren't quite that extreme, but being the protagonist's friend has it's benefits .
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Post by procutemeister on Jan 14, 2017 7:13:26 GMT
Walter Black, I agree with you on the kinds of elven companion for DA4. I'd also like to see something new with elf companion/s.
In any case, I wonder what they would have to say regarding the elves' mass exodus after the end of Trespasser. I'd like for that to be addressed in the game.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 14, 2017 12:49:08 GMT
Despite being an exile, Merril was pro-Dalish. A newly awakened Arlathani Elf, while not Dalish, could still initially be pro-Elven. My original point here is that we have never had an acknowledged elf-blooded human as a Companion. Alistair never found out, and was likely a retcon anyway. For non-Companions, Slim Couldry might have been, but that's only fan speculation. Feynriel could have been intriguing, but was all too brief and his paths too divergent. Michel de Chevin hated his Elven side. What I would like is character who is torn between two worlds, not just ideologically but racially as well. Someone whose very existence challenges every perceived notion of race, culture, and identity in Thedas. Someone who doesn't think you should have to be forced to choose one or the other. Sure, Merrill was pro-Dalish, but she wasn't in Inquisition, which is what I was addressing would make the next game a 'change of pace'. As for an elf-blooded human companion, I could see the possibilities. Slim Couldry talks about the Alienage, and Fiona asks about Alistair, but I certainly see what you mean in regards to having a character who has an elven parent, and may have been raised in an elven culture, but is elven-blooded. As for what you think it would challenge, the developers made it so that elf-blooded humans are technically human (by lore), so I'm not sure it would challenge things in the way you'd want them to. The Masked Empire and Trespasser showed that certain kinds of magic affects humans and elves differently, so having a halfbreed in our party could give multiple outcomes to some situations. Gameplay and Story Integration for a change . Beyond the obvious biracial and multi-faith identity issues, this could be a unique take on the Changeling Myth. But, like Michel, an elven-blooded human would be effected as though he was human, because the developers made it so that he's technically just human (Gaider even emphasized this in a post about human and elven children being entirely human, and suggested the reason was magical in nature as opposed to genetic).
I still have a hard time picturing them anything other than faction reps first, and Followers second. They don't really have much lives outside their respective groups, and you can't convince any to betray them or work toward any kind of alliance (excluding the Brotherhood). A personal pet peeve of mine, faction mechanics in traditional RPGs being so fixed and arbitrary. Definitely one thing I prefer about New Vegas, that you can form your own faction and still be a good guy .
You're technically still a good guy if you support the Brotherhood of Steel or the Railroad, you're just following a group with a particular ideology. Just like an uncontrolled Golem couldn't roam free in Orzimmar and Denerim? A rotting zombie in Amarantine? Mages and a glowing Elf in Kirkwall? True, our Inquisition Companions weren't quite that extreme, but being the protagonist's friend has it's benefits . Golems aren't prohibited from walking in Orzammar or Denerim, the latter of which has the head of the guard outright say that he knows you're a wanted man, but says he's looking the other way because he knows none of his soldiers will do anything about you. No one realizes that Kristoff is dead; it's why Justice answers some people who think he's Kristoff and don't realize that he's a spirit inhabiting Kristoff's corpse. None of those examples are akin to a qunari walking around in Tevinter. People complain about how ludicrous it was that being a mage was ignored in Dragon Age II - a qunari walking around Tevinter is more of the same.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 14, 2017 13:37:32 GMT
In Masked Empire there were elf bloodied humans living in Halamshiral who were accepted by the elven community. As one of the characters says, it wasn't their fault their mothers got friendly with a young human noble. They would have a problem though in the community because of the tradition among the alienage for the elders to arrange the marriages and the poor elf blood is not going to be considered as anything other than a liability.
However, it might be interesting to get the perspective of an elf blood growing up in the Tevinter slums. They don't have alienages in the way the rest of Thedas do because the elves have always been the second class citizens of the Imperium. I also do wonder if there is the odd exception to this where an elf in the past has had magical ability and been able to achieve citizenship as a Laetans and as a consequence their entire family was raised with them, including their descendents. It would be interesting to have such a character, whether full elf or elf bloodied, because it would be a nice contrast to have an elf character who was essentially a noble, as against all the previous examples of nobles who have been human. An elf brought up under such circumstances would have a completely different outlook to a Dalish or City elf or even Sera. So they have a sense of elven identity, may be even sympathise with their fellow elves in the slums but they are doing it from a background of privilege. They would be proud to be an elf and may be wanting to learn more about their ancient culture and admiring people like the Dalish who are trying to recover it. That would make a nice change from Sera or Solas.
If there is an ancient elf companion, I'd like them to be from the anti-Fen'Harel camp, just so we can get the story from their perspective. Again this would balance things up a bit from Trespasser when it is simply assumed that everything Solas says about the Evanuris is true and we are to accept it without question. Where are the "shades of grey" and balanced viewpoint that the writers have always been at pains to promote? One man's freedom fighter is another man's traitor to the state, so let's have someone who puts the case for the Evanuris, whether we ultimately agree with them or not.
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 14, 2017 15:41:04 GMT
Fair enough. Seeing as how they are mostly human, a half-Elf Companion would not take up an Elven slot. Anyway, here is where I must be honest; another reason I'm not as thrilled about a positive, pro-Dalish hero is that I've been influenced by Obsidian's Tyranny lately. On the surface, the Inquisition is more or less the Justice League of Thedas. Since in many ways Tevinter resembles the stereotypical Evil Empire, I was hoping our DA4 Companions could play up the Legion of Doom; the Black Knight, the manipulative seductress, the psycho gladiator, the bound Demon, etc. Yeah, you could argue that our Origins Companions fit that bill. I would counter that in the game proper that Sten, Ohgren, Zevran and Hardened Leliana were elite mooks with little to no influence, and only Morrigan had plot relevance. Obviously, much like the previous games did, these archetypes would be subverted and layered. But someone who starts and is likely to remain an Emerald Knight in Shining Armor lacks this edge . Yes, if you support their ideology. Even if they put you in charge, you still can't influence their direction much. Same thing in The Elder Scrolls; I can't really make the Companions Knights in Shining Armor, or jack booted mercenary thugs. I can't make the Thieves Guild Robin Hood style vigilantes, or straight up Mafia. Their path is set in stone, and so is yours if you want to stay with them. A Qunari Companion could have a cover as your or your master's slave. Yes, I think it would simplify the story if all protagonists started as high ranking slaves to an influential Magister, maybe even the Archon himself. We could have at least one proper Origin again, with race specific personal quests (actual QUESTS, not War Table Missions) later. A Qunari slave could bring a lot of prestige in Minrathous, and provide some pretty funny snark . Ok, so aside from a pure pro-Dalish Elf, are there any other types of Elven Companions you want in DA4? Any archetypes you specifically don't want, aside from particularly anti-Dalish?
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 14, 2017 17:01:23 GMT
Sure, Merrill was pro-Dalish, but she wasn't in Inquisition, which is what I was addressing would make the next game a 'change of pace'. As for an elf-blooded human companion, I could see the possibilities. Slim Couldry talks about the Alienage, and Fiona asks about Alistair, but I certainly see what you mean in regards to having a character who has an elven parent, and may have been raised in an elven culture, but is elven-blooded. As for what you think it would challenge, the developers made it so that elf-blooded humans are technically human (by lore), so I'm not sure it would challenge things in the way you'd want them to. Fair enough. Seeing as how they are mostly human, a half-Elf Companion would not take up an Elven slot. Anyway, here is where I must be honest; another reason I'm not as thrilled about a positive, pro-Dalish hero is that I've been influenced by Obsidian's Tyranny lately. On the surface, the Inquisition is more or less the Justice League of Thedas. Since in many ways Tevinter resembles the stereotypical Evil Empire, I was hoping our DA4 Companions could play up the Legion of Doom; the Black Knight, the manipulative seductress, the psycho gladiator, the bound Demon, etc. Yeah, you could argue that our Origins Companions fit that bill. I would counter that in the game proper that Sten, Ohgren, Zevran and Hardened Leliana were elite mooks with little to no influence, and only Morrigan had plot relevance. Obviously, much like the previous games did, these archetypes would be subverted and layered. But someone who starts and is likely to remain an Emerald Knight in Shining Armor lacks this edge I can understand that. Everyone has their own tastes and wants something specific to entertain them; there's nothing wrong with wanting something similar to Tyranny. I'm admittedly a bit hesitant about a prospective new game because I have no real interest in Andrastian society, and heading to the Imperial Chantry just feels like a different flavor of Andrastian after the Andrastian-heavy game of Inquisition. I'd likely feel much differently about it if there had been more variety in Inquisition. The prospect of playing as an Andrastian protagonist is one I find boring. I found Hawke utterly boring and bland, and I've never liked the other Andrastian human protagonists. You're technically still a good guy if you support the Brotherhood of Steel or the Railroad, you're just following a group with a particular ideology. Yes, if you support their ideology. Even if they put you in charge, you still can't influence their direction much. Same thing in The Elder Scrolls; I can't really make the Companions Knights in Shining Armor, or jack booted mercenary thugs. I can't make the Thieves Guild Robin Hood style vigilantes, or straight up Mafia. Their path is set in stone, and so is yours if you want to stay with them. You're never the leader of the Eastern chapter of the Brotherhood of Steel or the Railroad while the Institute follows a status quo that can easily lead to you being removed (and there are terminal entries about the cybernetics division that suggest this is a strong possibility). I can understand wanting to lead your own faction and wanting to shape things more directly (my favorite Fallout game is New Vegas, and I loved the path of an Independent Vegas with a highly intelligent Latino protagonist), but I think Fallout 4 addressed that Elder Scrolls criticism by prohibiting you from being the leader of everything. The Minutemen, admittedly, are ill-defined. They really feel like a last minute addition. Maybe they could have served that purpose if more effort was put into developing them as a faction you can shape. None of those examples are akin to a qunari walking around in Tevinter. People complain about how ludicrous it was that being a mage was ignored in Dragon Age II - a qunari walking around Tevinter is more of the same. A Qunari Companion could have a cover as your or your master's slave. Yes, I think it would simplify the story if all protagonists started as high ranking slaves to an influential Magister, maybe even the Archon himself. We could have at least one proper Origin again, with race specific personal quests (actual QUESTS, not War Table Missions) later. A Qunari slave could bring a lot of prestige in Minrathous, and provide some pretty funny snark Iron Bull and Dorian have a long distant relationship precisely because of the anti-qunari sentiment in the Imperium. I can see your point about the qunari starting off as a slave, but it would be a tricky concept because you couldn't simply have a qunari walking around freely without that starting a host of problems. Ok, so aside from a pure pro-Dalish Elf, are there any other types of Elven Companions you want in DA4? Any archetypes you specifically don't want, aside from particularly anti-Dalish? In terms of Tevinter? Because, generally speaking, I find the notion of elves who follow the Natural Order in Rivain, or the Rivaini version of the Qun (particularly as they have seers), quite interesting. If the possibility was to play as a Neloth style elf who was fascinated with the arcane, didn't let morality get in the way of success, didn't follow any gods or god - that could be quite interesting. I've always liked House Telvanni. There are other questions that make me pause as well. Do we have to be a good guy? Given the setting, are we going to be forced to play as an Andrastian? Can we refuse to help the Inquisitor? Can we have moral complexity, rather than simplistic shades of black and white? Will the new antagonist be a cartoon like Corypheus was? Will this character be forced to help the Chantry like the last one was?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 2:33:46 GMT
Ooh, a dalish companion from Rivain would be good. Most dalish clans have been persecuted by the humans and the human cities around them, but there is supposedly a permanent dalish settlement in Rivain. It would nice to have a dalish companion from that settlement and see humans and dalish co-exist peacefully.
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