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Post by phoray on Jun 7, 2017 21:39:20 GMT
Here's a curious thing. Do you suppose that Ariane, the "Dalish" elf from Witch Hunt was really one of Solas' agents? I was watching through the key scenes again on You Tube and some oddities struck me. Additionally, she recognizes the Warden on sight with a few expectations- that they come to the hut for Morrigan and that they will be able to enter the Circle more easily then she. This struck me as so odd to say to a Dwarven Warden that it made me wonder if the writers for this DLC were really that lazy about getting her in your party no matter what, or if there was more to her story.
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Post by phoray on Jun 7, 2017 22:00:18 GMT
Ooh, a dalish companion from Rivain would be good. Most dalish clans have been persecuted by the humans and the human cities around them, but there is supposedly a permanent dalish settlement in Rivain. It would nice to have a dalish companion from that settlement and see humans and dalish co-exist peacefully. I also find this idea interesting.
*waves* Working on my fanfiction again, so means I'm visiting this thread for a brush up on Elvhen Connections
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Post by phoray on Jun 8, 2017 2:54:14 GMT
So, in researching writing tips on "how to write a party" , the discussion turned to how parties in stories were really related to accomplishing a goal or standing in for something. It mentioned how a dicussion duing a 19th century Fete about which kind of thing were better, french or english version, would actually stand in as commentary about the tensions between the two countries at the time.
So as I'm patching this Arlathvhen together as a Cultural Representation of one of the Dalish's largest events, I think about what sort of tensions would be there. Yes, it's a place of learning and frivolity, but there are tensions that would still be present. Especially if "the clans growing apart" is really a thing.
And then earlier on this thread, we were discussing the Elven method of burying their dead as opposed to burning. Although a difference of opinion and practicality, such an argument could support the whole "clans growing apart." Yes yes, the old ways are great, but I'd rather not have corpses take out portions of our settlements, maybe we should be practical on this matter?
Additionally, the 3 mage rule. And how some clans take in city elves with open hearts while others say they aren't of the Elvhen. What it would be like, at this event, as a new Dalish and some Traditionalist snubs you?
Usage of some magic (blood) and even differences of opinion on how to deal with humans a clan encounters. How they're all there to "be together" but even as one people, they're trying and failing slightly to put their differences aside.
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Post by vit246 on Jun 8, 2017 7:36:38 GMT
So, in researching writing tips on "how to write a party" , the discussion turned to how parties in stories were really related to accomplishing a goal or standing in for something. It mentioned how a dicussion duing a 19th century Fete about which kind of thing were better, french or english version, would actually stand in as commentary about the tensions between the two countries at the time. So as I'm patching this Arlathvhen together as a Cultural Representation of one of the Dalish's largest events, I think about what sort of tensions would be there. Yes, it's a place of learning and frivolity, but there are tensions that would still be present. Especially if "the clans growing apart" is really a thing. And then earlier on this thread, we were discussing the Elven method of burying their dead as opposed to burning. Although a difference of opinion and practicality, such an argument could support the whole "clans growing apart." Yes yes, the old ways are great, but I'd rather not have corpses take out portions of our settlements, maybe we should be practical on this matter? Additionally, the 3 mage rule. And how some clans take in city elves with open hearts while others say they aren't of the Elvhen. What it would be like, at this event, as a new Dalish and some Traditionalist snubs you? Usage of some magic (blood) and even differences of opinion on how to deal with humans a clan encounters. How they're all there to "be together" but even as one people, they're trying and failing slightly to put their differences aside. Tensions: - Some clans have Keepers as leaders. Other clans have mundanes as "Clanlords" - Some clans will speak only Elvish and refuse to use the common tongue - Some clans will snub city elves and converts as hopelessly lost to the Elven and for diluting the Elven race with their weak blood. Some clans will argue all elves were born "Flat Ears" and they learned to become Elvhen, therefore city elves can be Elvhen too, kinda like a White Man's Burden except with elves. - Some clans dealing with humans...I imagine one scenario where one or two or a couple pitiful humans get taken in by a clan temporarily as a form of Sacred Hospitality. The Dalish as nomads need to know they can count on hospitality if they were in dire straits. On the other hand there is the Satanic Church's concept of Domain. On the other hand I might just be making shit up that doesn't flow with the lore. I recommend looking at the shadowdreams tumblr for some creative Dalish lore headcanon.
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Post by phoray on Jun 8, 2017 13:42:20 GMT
Stick in the MudI wasn't arguing that he was in a different level of uthenara, I was just saying he was more involved in the world during his sleep then most seem to assume. He's had his hand in certain events for over 20 years. I don't see many fans put forth that idea, but does lend credence to suspecting say, Arrianne the companion of Witch Hunt, to be an agent of Solas.
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Post by Iddy on Jun 8, 2017 13:48:56 GMT
Solas was in contact with Falessan for as long as Falessan knew Briala, which was a couple of years- at least, that was my impression from the Masked Empire, when Briala ran away from the slaughter of her dead parents to find the Dalish and found Falessan. That was when Empress Celene killed them to become Empress, at the age of 16. That was 9:20 Dragon, meaning that Solas' plan was being put into place for 20+ years. To me, that means he was ....at least, not so deep in Uthenara , as to be able to make plans for his Awakening during the 5th Blight. He even speaks of visiting those events in the Fade- he doesn't mention a time. So either Falessan woke up before Solas, and worked on contacting him to waken him or lived in Thedas all along and Solas suddenly came to. But why would Falessan bother to get an elven spy in the Orlesian Government without the order from Solas? So, to me, Solas has been "aware" but still in uthenara for at least 25 years, waking up fully, taking control of his own body again, 6 months to a year prior to the Conclave Explosion. Do we have any canon material that implies Dreamers cannot interact with one another (or other normal people who happen to be asleep) if they are in Uthenera? Based on The Masked Empire, I'd just assume that Dreamers can do that. A distinction has never been made between Uthenara and "deep" Uthenara. There is just Uthenera. We have canon Dalish lore (which is admittedly not the best course of information) that implies elder elves learned things while in Uthenara and occasionally woke up to share their wisdom. Uthenera is not black out, dreamless sleep. Solas was just dreaming for a LONG time--"dark and dreaming sleep" as he calls it. In his dreams he as able to visit places he had known in his waking life and in doing so experience memories of the history of those places (this idea is loosely based on the conversation about joining the Inquisition helping him find new places in the Fade). Questions of when his plan went into motion depend a lot on one thing: do the ancient elves currently alive AND awake in Thedas age? Mythal's sentinels go back to sleep after they deal with intruders usually. One may say that is because they don't want to live out their day to day lives, or it could be to prevent aging. Devs have not given us an answer on if Solas is immortal in modern Thedas. That alone is suspicious. My personal theory (which is based on the assumption that elves like Abelas and Solas are NOT currently immortal) is that Solas regretted his creating the Veil almost immediately after having done it. This plan to sunder the Veil has been in motion since then. My guess is that the Orb had to charge (or something of this nature) for Solas to be able to use it. If he had stayed awake while it charged (or while waiting for the stars to align again or whatever), he would have died long before it was time to cast Big Magic 2.0. Felassan was instructed via communication in the Fade to wake up (just as Solas arguably instructed the Inquisitor to "wake up" when they met in the Fade) so that he could get access to the Eluvians in preparation for the unfolding of Solas' Big Magic 2.0. Then when Felassan failed him, Solas woke to take care of things himself. And we all know how wonderfully that went... Anyhow, that's my harebrained explanation. I don't claim I am right. This is just me sharing a different point of view. PS Sorry about the harebrained pun, my fellow rabbit enthusiasts. Even with all that, the Dalish share a strong sense of kinship you won't find in any other race. A Dalish elf walking into a clan that isn't his/her own still would be met with warm hospitality. A dwarf in Orzammar will be treated according to the corresponding caste.
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Post by phoray on Jun 8, 2017 15:03:22 GMT
Stick in the Mud I wasn't arguing that he was in a different level of uthenara, I was just saying he was more involved in the world during his sleep then most seem to assume. He's had his hand in certain events for over 20 years. I don't see many fans put forth that idea, but does lend credence to suspecting say, Arrianne the companion of Witch Hunt, to be an agent of Solas. Sorry. I interpreted this: "To me, that means he was ....at least, not so deep in Uthenara , as to be able to make plans for his Awakening during the 5th Blight" as implying there is more than one "level" of Uthenera. I've never seen people discuss Ariane as an agent, no. I have however heard people discuss the possibility that Solas had contact with Andraste in her dreams--that he is "The Maker." If that is the case, then he has had a hand in things for a lot longer than 20 years. People who've read The Masked Empire can deduce that Felassan's "master" had a hand in the events of the last 20 years. Trespasser Cole dialogue pretty much confirms that Solas killed Felassan and was therefore the person Felassan reported to in the book. People talked about that on the old BSN...not Ariane though. I don't feel like Solas would be that involved in the world. If he had been the type, he would have manipulated a better outcome for the Mage Templar war than there was. So, I feel like he really did kind of "go off into the deep" in the Fade for a long time.... but then again... Maybe he's how Flemeth could "see the future." Starting with knowing Marric would arrive. So, that could even imply 30 ish years of semi direct involvement with events.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 8, 2017 18:27:31 GMT
There are a few things that suggest that Solas could see over a pretty wide area from the Fade.
For a start there is that mention of him viewing the actions of a baker in Par Vollen. I cannot believe that he took the trouble to go there during the year after he woke or stayed long enough to know that the baker did something different to the bread every day. Nor do I think that Fade spirits would find that action particularly interesting, especially considering the baker was not a mage.
He also talks about what Val Royeaux was like when it was just a trading settlement. I suppose it is possible that he visited Val Royeaux after he woke up but with the civil war going on it seems unlikely. It seems more likely that he visited it whilst in uthenera, possibly during the time of Andraste if he was following her progress or in any way connected with it and her barbarian horde would have had to have passed that way.
More pertinently there are the words of Mihris about what the Dalish believe dreamers could do from Uthenera. She says the ancients could see the whole world, could tell their followers where their enemies would be an in what numbers and where the Veil was thin they could send spirits to do their bidding and aid their friends. Felassan immediately exaggerates the idea, saying that they could grant wishes to the pure, and then ridicules the whole concept. I now think that in fact Mihris was pretty near the mark as to what the most powerful dreamers could do, which is why Felassan had to make her look ridiculous because she was probably outlining what Fen'Harel could do. The only bit she really got wrong was that if there was no Veil, then there was no barrier to the spirits that could be sent in aid of the followers of the dreamer.
I raised the idea about Arianne because of the fact that Felassan was active in Thedas for at least 20 years before the events in Masked Empire setting things up for his boss's return. Since Arianne was specifically interested in recovering a book about eluvians that Morrigan had stolen, it would connect with the actions of Felassan who was charged with gaining control of them. I seriously doubt that any Dalish clan had possession of a book about eluvians, particularly considering she says they had had it for a very long time. If that was the case, then according to the lore of the Arlathvhen, this knowledge would have been shared with the other clans, any one of which could ask to borrow the book. So Merrill would have known about it too. In fact the whole clan should have. Yet both in game and in the lore books the Dalish seem ignorant of what the eluvians were meant to be or what their purpose was for. Merrill simply knows the eluvian is something that once belonged to her people but that is all. Mind you, I think the events of Witch Hunt were largely ignored, apart from Morrigan having possession of an eluvian, since at the end of Witch Hunt she is meant to give back the book, yet in DAI she still appears to have it. Also in the history of Morrigan in WoT2, it is implied that Morrigan dredged up her eluvian from a swamp or bog, since it is covered in rust and mud when she takes it to Celene's court. That does not sound like the eluvian she enters in Witch Hunt.
Anyway, Solas admits to having more than one agent active. He specifically says that his "agents" tripped over qunari agents in the Inquisition. So if he had more than one agent in the Inquisition, it seems likely he had several agents dotted around across Thedas.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 8, 2017 18:45:36 GMT
Phoray, with regard to tensions at the Arlathvhen, in the history of the multi-player human agent Hall, it says that he was rescued by a Dalish hunter, Fanora, after he was ordered to flee into the woods by his mother to escape bandits. The hunter had long arguments with her Keeper about keeping the boy under her care, the Keeper suggesting she should just drop him off at the gates of the nearest human village. However, Fanora stuck to her guns and kept the boy with her, teaching him her ways. For years he thought she was trying to help him fit in and then 10 years exactly after she rescued him, when presumably she thought him old enough to care for himself, she gave him a bow and quiver of arrows and put him back in the woods again. Now it occurs to me that unless she found him immediately after one Arlathvhen and that was why it was 10 years until she cut him lose, so she could attend the next, that at least one gathering of the clans must have taken place while he was under her care. So did Fanora not attend, was she ordered not to attend or did she attend and get some rather pointed comments from the other Dalish?
The history of Neria also talks about the tensions between some of the more conservative clans and clan Rilaferin because of the actions of Gisharel in sharing Dalish culture with human scholars. These isolationist Dalish held Gisharel and his clan in contempt as a result, a sentiment that continued after his death.
In DAO we know from the craftsmen in Zathrian's clan that Mahariel's father had advocated trying to learn from interaction with humans, which no doubt led to the disapproval of his lover's clan to their union that Mahariel is told about by their foster mother.
So it would seem that whilst the clans do get together to share lore and make collective judgements on some issues, like Zathrian's action which was condemned by the elders when it came to light, there clearly are tensions that surface at the gatherings as well, particularly between the more progressive clans, like Sabrae, Rilaferin and Lavellan and those more isolationist, prejudiced clans like Virnehn.
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Post by Iddy on Jun 8, 2017 19:43:19 GMT
Stick in the Mud I wasn't arguing that he was in a different level of uthenara, I was just saying he was more involved in the world during his sleep then most seem to assume. He's had his hand in certain events for over 20 years. I don't see many fans put forth that idea, but does lend credence to suspecting say, Arrianne the companion of Witch Hunt, to be an agent of Solas. Sorry. I interpreted this: "To me, that means he was ....at least, not so deep in Uthenara , as to be able to make plans for his Awakening during the 5th Blight" as implying there is more than one "level" of Uthenera. I've never seen people discuss Ariane as an agent, no. I have however heard people discuss the possibility that Solas had contact with Andraste in her dreams--that he is "The Maker." If that is the case, then he has had a hand in things for a lot longer than 20 years. People who've read The Masked Empire can deduce that Felassan's "master" had a hand in the events of the last 20 years. Trespasser Cole dialogue pretty much confirms that Solas killed Felassan and was therefore the person Felassan reported to in the book. People talked about that on the old BSN...not Ariane though. The revelation of Solas' identity has made people too obsessed with speculating that everyone must be someone else in disguise.
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Post by Walter Black on Jun 9, 2017 0:20:50 GMT
Sorry. I interpreted this: "To me, that means he was ....at least, not so deep in Uthenara , as to be able to make plans for his Awakening during the 5th Blight" as implying there is more than one "level" of Uthenera. I've never seen people discuss Ariane as an agent, no. I have however heard people discuss the possibility that Solas had contact with Andraste in her dreams--that he is "The Maker." If that is the case, then he has had a hand in things for a lot longer than 20 years. People who've read The Masked Empire can deduce that Felassan's "master" had a hand in the events of the last 20 years. Trespasser Cole dialogue pretty much confirms that Solas killed Felassan and was therefore the person Felassan reported to in the book. People talked about that on the old BSN...not Ariane though. The revelation of Solas' identity has made people too obsessed with speculating that everyone must be someone else in disguise. Well, Patrick Weekes did say that one of his biggest inspirations for Solas was Doctor Who. If you've ever been to TV Tropes, you should know the running gag that everyone is a Timelord...
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 9, 2017 20:10:43 GMT
I generally get annoyed that practically every elf we have encountered is suspected to be either Solas or an agent of his.
I do not believe that Shartan had anything to do with him, although that has more to do with the fact that I don't want him to have any connection with him. I really want Shartan to be a genuine elven hero in his own right. However, I do think his sword Glandivalis, given to him by Andraste, could have had some connection with Solas and his rebellion or at the very least was an ancient elf blade.
I don't think Cillian has any real connection with Solas, apart from having hung out for a number of years at an old shrine dedicated to the Arcane Warriors. I feel that he probably acquired his ancient armour there and he definitely isn't an ancient elf since he is has an established history with the Rilaferin clan.
The reason that I was prepared to consider that Arianne had anything to do with him was mostly due to the eluvian connection and the fact that her backstory didn't really seem plausible, although that could just be lazy writing rather than tangible proof that she is really an agent of Solas in disguise.
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Post by Walter Black on Jun 10, 2017 23:54:55 GMT
I generally get annoyed that practically every elf we have encountered is suspected to be either Solas or an agent of his. I do not believe that Shartan had anything to do with him, although that has more to do with the fact that I don't want him to have any connection with him. I really want Shartan to be a genuine elven hero in his own right. However, I do think his sword Glandivalis, given to him by Andraste, could have had some connection with Solas and his rebellion or at the very least was an ancient elf blade. I don't think Cillian has any real connection with Solas, apart from having hung out for a number of years at an old shrine dedicated to the Arcane Warriors. I feel that he probably acquired his ancient armour there and he definitely isn't an ancient elf since he is has an established history with the Rilaferin clan.The reason that I was prepared to consider that Arianne had anything to do with him was mostly due to the eluvian connection and the fact that her backstory didn't really seem plausible, although that could just be lazy writing rather than tangible proof that she is really an agent of Solas in disguise. As much as I think Arcane Warriors fit Elves, it bugs me that in thousands of years of magical experimentation, no one was able to properly reverse engineer it. Knight Enchanters and Battle Mages come close, but no cigar . No Magisters who sought to increase their power and knowledge, no Court Wizards in service to their country's military, no apostates desperate for alternative means of fighting Templars, no Grey Warden mages who wanted to increase their survivability against Darkspawn?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 11, 2017 14:57:12 GMT
I must admit that it does seem odd that along the way there wasn't some demon saying "you know there's this really neat way of fighting that the elves invented if you just do a deal with me". I suppose you can put it down to the arrogance of the Magisters and willingness to waste the lives of mundanes on the front line that they didn't bother coming up with a more martial form of mage warfare.
It does seem odd that the elves who joined the Grey Wardens didn't bring the knowledge over to them, although it would seem that for some reason it was totally lost from the elven lore as well. Except they obviously know about it or Cillian would never have gone in search of the ancient shrine in the first place. So apparently for hundreds of years the elves passed on the stories of the mystical warriors without ever thinking to do anything about it, particularly when they had a homeland to defend.
I think it is just another case of the writers not doing joined up thinking as they make up history on the cuff. So back in DAO it was something that had been lost to time but by DAI we have the Dalish elves who were aware of it as a discipline, if not having bothered to research it, and servants of the Divine having come up with something similar even though no one seemed aware of it before. Meanwhile, Lavellan seems ignorant of the elven stories of mystical warriors and needs Solas to fill them in on the lore.
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Post by cloud9 on Jun 14, 2017 4:09:44 GMT
Ooooo. I remember clicking on this article. I found it pretty lacking on developing it's point in a fashion that gets people to listen and learn- possibly all the curse words and racial slurs put me off. Don't recommend. Too black for you huh?
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Post by phoray on Jun 14, 2017 10:50:51 GMT
Ooooo. I remember clicking on this article. I found it pretty lacking on developing it's point in a fashion that gets people to listen and learn- possibly all the curse words and racial slurs put me off. Don't recommend. Too black for you huh? *Puts her Vivienne hat on. * Cloud, my dear, poor writing transcends racial distinctions. This thread is about ancient Elvhen lore in Thedas. Do you have any theories that lack an air of accusation?
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Post by cloud9 on Jun 15, 2017 9:18:59 GMT
*Puts her Vivienne hat on. * Cloud, my dear, poor writing transcends racial distinctions. This thread is about ancient Elvhen lore in Thedas. Do you have any theories that lack an air of accusation? Come on you know exactly what the link is about so let's be real with this and it does correlates on real world issues and historical events such as racism, slavery, etc that the elves have gone through just like black people have went through in America. The devs didn't made this lore by accident you know.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 16, 2017 11:01:19 GMT
*Puts her Vivienne hat on. * Cloud, my dear, poor writing transcends racial distinctions. This thread is about ancient Elvhen lore in Thedas. Do you have any theories that lack an air of accusation? Come on you know exactly what the link is about so let's be real with this and it does correlates on real world issues and historical events such as racism, slavery, etc that the elves have gone through just like black people have went through in America. The devs didn't made this lore by accident you know. They are elves, not American black people. The elves and their story based on many cultures.
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Post by phoray on Jun 16, 2017 11:54:34 GMT
CatilinaEh, don't react to him Catlina. I apologize for giving an opinion on the blog cloud linked when I know better- no response is the best response to this person.
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Post by cloud9 on Jun 19, 2017 11:39:06 GMT
Come on you know exactly what the link is about so let's be real with this and it does correlates on real world issues and historical events such as racism, slavery, etc that the elves have gone through just like black people have went through in America. The devs didn't made this lore by accident you know. They are elves, not American black people. The elves and their story based on many cultures. Then why the story of the elves are accurate based on historical events to a specific group of people? Not my fault I pointed out the obvious. 😏
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Post by Catilina on Jun 19, 2017 12:04:09 GMT
They are elves, not American black people. The elves and their story based on many cultures. Then why the story of the elves are accurate based on historical events to a specific group of people? Not my fault I pointed out the obvious. 😏 Not really specifical. the dalish history include the extract of many different human culture.
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Post by Iddy on Jun 19, 2017 12:48:32 GMT
Then why the story of the elves are accurate based on historical events to a specific group of people? Not my fault I pointed out the obvious. 😏 Not really specifical. the dalish history include the extract of many different human culture. Some, yes. Not all. The only references that seem to be commonly acknowledged in the fandom as fact are the Jews and the Romani.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jun 19, 2017 13:15:33 GMT
Not really specifical. the dalish history include the extract of many different human culture. Some, yes. Not all. The only references that seem to be commonly acknowledged in the fandom as fact are the Jews and the Romani. In the fandom...
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749
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Mar 10, 2024 18:44:44 GMT
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Iddy
3,727
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Post by Iddy on Jun 19, 2017 14:03:06 GMT
Some, yes. Not all. The only references that seem to be commonly acknowledged in the fandom as fact are the Jews and the Romani. In the fandom... Of course, I should follow your example and provide a long list of sources. Oh, right. You didn't.
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127
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August 2016
catilina
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jun 19, 2017 14:13:07 GMT
Of course, I should follow your example and provide a long list of sources. Oh, right. You didn't. Why would I do such a thing? I just see clearly, that the dalish history based on many different cultures, I don't need to list these. People like to make all kinds of parallels, and they can do it, but the dalish elves still dalish elves.
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