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Post by LilTIM on Apr 8, 2017 21:35:59 GMT
From best to worst i rank them: Cora>Jaal>Drack>Peebee>Liam>Vetra
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2017 22:34:25 GMT
The female Ryder romancing Jaal who shoots Akksul, gets a dialogue: "Why, oh why you shot him?!" She says: Flirt: "I could not face losing you!" Jaal goes: "I see. I put you in a difficult position." And then if you do find him on the ship, he tells you he does not want to talk to you, and he thought there was something between you... and that's that for the romance. So, yeah... the only possible meta-gaming here is to let Akksul take a basically point blank shot at the guy you are supposedly in love with because he told your 22 yo protagonist to trust him on that one. I swear, the way BioWARE conditions the romances.... Maybe if we had some sort of dialogues showing that there was a triangle going, and she developed the feelings for Akksul, since the two men are rivals, that would explain it in a soap opera over the top melodrama way, but it is hard to credit her not pulling the trigger otherwise (and in the melodrama case deserves an eye-roll of the century, but probably would be secretly pleasing). Unless, OMG, Akksul had feelings for Jaal! And that bitter rivalry between the manly men Angara... Oh, yes! It was actually True Love, and Jaal just now sees it, when Ryder kills Akksul. That's the best explanation yet! Is it possible to lock in a romance with Jaal before doing his loyalty mission? Best of both worlds in that you have Jaal and kill Akksul. No. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2017 22:38:30 GMT
He asked you to trust him, you didn't. Maybe he values the lack of trust higher than the protectiveness, especially since the Roekaar are a real political issue for the angara that have already threatened Jaal's own family, in a way, and you just made them that much stronger. It would help if he actually explained himself in a conversation option, though. I mean, his whole conversation structure is about trust. He talks about being unable/unwilling to trust you in your first meeting. He strongly suggests that you not trust him, either. He explicitly connects his willingness to talk to you about himself and about stuff in general to your level of mutual trust; as it grows, so too do your conversation options. And finally, as you mentioned, he does tell you to trust him during the showdown with Akksul. By comparison, at no point does he wring his hands about feeling like you're not protective enough of him. There is a difference between "trust me" when you are asked to take something on faith and when he is willing to sacrifice his own life in the name of discrediting Akksul' cell. Save for it happening in Bio's game, he'd be dead and Ryder would have resolved the political crisis to everyone's satisfaction. there is no reasons for Jaal to believe in his own invincibility. None. It's one of the most contrived romance gates in Bio games. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2017 22:41:35 GMT
Jaal knew Akksul from when they both studied with the Moshae. He knew Akksul would not kill him (even said he was always a bad shot) and he knew he would be humiliated if he tried to hurt Jaal, who is beloved by many. Trusting Jaal is not just trusting him because of what type of bond you form, but it's because he knows Akksul personally and you don't.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2017 22:47:36 GMT
Jaal knew Akksul from when they both studied with the Moshae. He knew Akksul would not kill him (even said he was always a bad shot) and he knew he would be humiliated if he tried to hurt Jaal, who is beloved by many. Trusting Jaal is not just trusting him because of what type of bond you form, but it's because he knows Akksul personally and you don't. Akksul gives no signs of not shooting Jaal. If that was the case, the cutscene would have him gallantly fire in the air as in the chivalrous duels of the romantic novels. Only his ridiculous bad aim saves Jaal, not the intent. Relying on someone to miss in how close the characters stand to one another, not even at the 14 standard paces, but literally shoulder to shoulder... and Angaran guns (confirmed by Drake) hardly being the matchlocks.... it's seriously bad. Jaal's sister also just shot her brother, with a full intent to kill him. Jaal also comments how much Akksul changed. This guy won't shoot me, we went to school together, in the middle of essentially a civil war just does not hold true. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2017 22:52:44 GMT
Jaal knew Akksul from when they both studied with the Moshae. He knew Akksul would not kill him (even said he was always a bad shot) and he knew he would be humiliated if he tried to hurt Jaal, who is beloved by many. Trusting Jaal is not just trusting him because of what type of bond you form, but it's because he knows Akksul personally and you don't. Akksul gives no signs of not shooting Jaal. If that was the case, the cutscene would have him gallantly fire in the air as in the chivalrous duels of the romantic novels. Only his ridiculous bad aim saves Jaal, not the intent. Relying on someone to miss in how close the characters stand to one another, not even at the 14 standard paces, but literally shoulder to shoulder... and Angaran guns (confirmed by Drake) hardly being the matchlocks.... it's seriously bad. Yeah but he's also obviously hesitant to do it, and I think he even shakes slightly if I recall. Sometimes I think he intended to avoid serious harm to Jaal, but hoped it would provoke Ryder. As he does say to Ryder "Martyr me" and that right there is a warning not to kill him. He wants it. He's provoking it and seeing how close you and Jaal are, he's hoping for you to react. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2017 23:14:23 GMT
Akksul gives no signs of not shooting Jaal. If that was the case, the cutscene would have him gallantly fire in the air as in the chivalrous duels of the romantic novels. Only his ridiculous bad aim saves Jaal, not the intent. Relying on someone to miss in how close the characters stand to one another, not even at the 14 standard paces, but literally shoulder to shoulder... and Angaran guns (confirmed by Drake) hardly being the matchlocks.... it's seriously bad. Yeah but he's also obviously hesitant to do it, and I think he even shakes slightly if I recall. Sometimes I think he intended to avoid serious harm to Jaal, but hoped it would provoke Ryder. As he does say to Ryder "Martyr me" and that right there is a warning not to kill him. He wants it. He's provoking it and seeing how close you and Jaal are, he's hoping for you to react. The cutscene has no indication though that Akksul tries to miss. Whatever feeling he expresses, he aims at Jaal's head, and shoots. Ryder comment afterwards, "eight centimetres to the right..." and Jaal's response: "he was always a bad shot" indicate that Jaal indeed either was happy to die to prove his point (just like Akksul), or was relying on a stroke of luck (that happened) While he does say: Martyr me, the scene occurs before numerous witnesses, and you get letter from Jaal's brother that indicates that the reception of your move is mixed. The events clearly indicate that Ryder shoots one Angara defending another, after saving the holy grounds. There is very little martyr material in Akksul. It is illogical to make a conclusion that many will see it that way, no matter what Akksul believes. Again, unlike in ME3, where if you do not take the shot at TIM, the game is over because he ends Shepard, here you are given a most unlikely outcome that opens up the romance. By rights, the choice should have been sacrificing Jaal in the name of peaceful settlement with Angara, or saving Jaal, souring the relationship with Angara. Jaal's miraculous survival, and not due to some ritual show of chivalrious surrender on Akksul's part if he did realize he can't take the shot (I would have bought that easier) and that being the condition of a romance are not my favorite moment in the game. And nope, not because I had to replay the mission. It's just taxes my suspension of disbelief too much, and goes too much into young adult style literature artificial happy constructs. To me, Jaal's romance is a must as a part of the plot, so I went along with it, but if there was a genre appropriate alternative, I'd have kept the break up as is. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2017 23:16:33 GMT
Yeah but he's also obviously hesitant to do it, and I think he even shakes slightly if I recall. Sometimes I think he intended to avoid serious harm to Jaal, but hoped it would provoke Ryder. As he does say to Ryder "Martyr me" and that right there is a warning not to kill him. He wants it. He's provoking it and seeing how close you and Jaal are, he's hoping for you to react. The cutscene has no indication though that Akksul tries to miss. Whatever feeling he expresses, he aims at Jaal's head, and shoots. Ryder comment afterwards, "eight centimetres to the right..." and Jaal's response: "he was always a bad shot" indicate that Jaal indeed either was happy to die to prove his point (just like Akksul), or was relying on a stroke of luck (that happened) While he does say: Martyr me, the scene occurs before numerous witnesses, and you get letter from Jaal's brother that indicates that the reception of your move is mixed. The events clearly indicate that Ryder shoots one Angara defending another, after saving the holy grounds. There is very little martyr material in Akksul. It is illogical to make a conclusion that many will see it that way, no matter what Akksul believes. Again, unlike in ME3, where if you do not take the shot at TIM, the game is over because he ends Shepard, here you are given a most unlikely outcome that opens up the romance. By rights, the choice should have been sacrificing Jaal in the name of peaceful settlement with Angara, or saving Jaal, souring the relationship with Angara. Jaal's miraculous survival, and not due to some ritual show of chivalrious surrender on Akksul's part if he did realize he can't take the shot (I would have bought that easier) and that being the condition of a romance are not my favorite moment in the game. And nope, not because I had to replay the mission. It's just taxes my suspension of disbelief too much, and goes too much into young adult style literature artificial happy constructs. To me, Jaal's romance is a must as a part of the plot, so I went along with it, but if there was a genre appropriate alternative, I'd have kept the break up as is. Can't agree with that myself. Maybe due to my seeing good in others, but the game points out a lot that Akksul is a lost soul, so I always let him take the shot. Kind of a reality check like when Jaal's sister shoots her brother, but that's me. I am a Paragon and always will be, even in MEA. And Akksul emails me post-game telling me he was wrong for what he did to Jaal and will try to stop hating aliens. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2017 23:20:08 GMT
The cutscene has no indication though that Akksul tries to miss. Whatever feeling he expresses, he aims at Jaal's head, and shoots. Ryder comment afterwards, "eight centimetres to the right..." and Jaal's response: "he was always a bad shot" indicate that Jaal indeed either was happy to die to prove his point (just like Akksul), or was relying on a stroke of luck (that happened) While he does say: Martyr me, the scene occurs before numerous witnesses, and you get letter from Jaal's brother that indicates that the reception of your move is mixed. The events clearly indicate that Ryder shoots one Angara defending another, after saving the holy grounds. There is very little martyr material in Akksul. It is illogical to make a conclusion that many will see it that way, no matter what Akksul believes. Again, unlike in ME3, where if you do not take the shot at TIM, the game is over because he ends Shepard, here you are given a most unlikely outcome that opens up the romance. By rights, the choice should have been sacrificing Jaal in the name of peaceful settlement with Angara, or saving Jaal, souring the relationship with Angara. Jaal's miraculous survival, and not due to some ritual show of chivalrious surrender on Akksul's part if he did realize he can't take the shot (I would have bought that easier) and that being the condition of a romance are not my favorite moment in the game. And nope, not because I had to replay the mission. It's just taxes my suspension of disbelief too much, and goes too much into young adult style literature artificial happy constructs. To me, Jaal's romance is a must as a part of the plot, so I went along with it, but if there was a genre appropriate alternative, I'd have kept the break up as is. Can't agree with that myself. Maybe due to my seeing good in others, but the game points out a lot that Akksul is a lost soul, so I always let him take the shot. Kind of a reality check like when Jaal's sister shoots her brother, but that's me. I am a Paragon and always will be, even in MEA. I see plenty good in Akksul, and I know he is desperate and sincere. He, however, does not drop the gun, shoots in the air, etc. His shot misses only due to a miracle, not Akksul's intent. IF he was shown to miss by intent, I'd go with Jaal's faith in him not being misplaced and Ryder just being as naive as Paragon Shepard and never suffering a single consequence of her altruism as a staple of genre. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2017 23:21:26 GMT
Can't agree with that myself. Maybe due to my seeing good in others, but the game points out a lot that Akksul is a lost soul, so I always let him take the shot. Kind of a reality check like when Jaal's sister shoots her brother, but that's me. I am a Paragon and always will be, even in MEA. I see plenty good in Akksul, and I know he is desperate and sincere. He, however, does not drop the gun, shoots in the air, etc. His shot misses only due to a miracle, not Akksul's intent. IF he was shown to miss by intent, I'd go with Jaal's faith in him not being misplaced and Ryder just being as naive as Paragon Shepard and never suffering a single consequence of her altruism. Oh I saw him move the gun slightly to his left, so I assumed he was aiming for pain but not murder lol |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2017 23:24:51 GMT
I see plenty good in Akksul, and I know he is desperate and sincere. He, however, does not drop the gun, shoots in the air, etc. His shot misses only due to a miracle, not Akksul's intent. IF he was shown to miss by intent, I'd go with Jaal's faith in him not being misplaced and Ryder just being as naive as Paragon Shepard and never suffering a single consequence of her altruism. Oh I saw him move the gun slightly to his left, so I assumed he was aiming for pain but not murder lol The Ryder-Jaal talk after the shooting do not confirm that. Anyway, in the end, the game rewards not defending someone you love, and I can dislike it all I want, but it is what it is. When I am not romancing Jaal, I will shoot. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2017 23:29:21 GMT
Oh I saw him move the gun slightly to his left, so I assumed he was aiming for pain but not murder lol The Ryder-Jaal talk after the shooting do not confirm that. Anyway, in the end, the game rewards not defending someone you love, and I can dislike it all I want, but it is what it is. When I am not romancing Jaal, I will shoot. I was thinking it was more for the player to see. Jaal claims it's a bad shot, but I think he didn't see what I saw lol though I do love shooting the Cardinal. Evfra wants to celebrate lol |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2017 23:31:40 GMT
The Ryder-Jaal talk after the shooting do not confirm that. Anyway, in the end, the game rewards not defending someone you love, and I can dislike it all I want, but it is what it is. When I am not romancing Jaal, I will shoot. I was thinking it was more for the player to see. Jaal claims it's a bad shot, but I think he didn't see what I saw lol though I do love shooting the Cardinal. Evfra wants to celebrate lol If the shot, despite Akksul's hesitation, killed Jaal in the game, would you have still done what Jaal asked, and not shoot Akksul, because you believed he is not capable of killing in cold blood and you did not want to make Akksul a martyr? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2017 23:33:29 GMT
I was thinking it was more for the player to see. Jaal claims it's a bad shot, but I think he didn't see what I saw lol though I do love shooting the Cardinal. Evfra wants to celebrate lol If the shot, despite Akksul's hesitation, killed Jaal in the game, would you have still done what Jaal asked, and not shoot Akksul? That's the thing. The game hints a lot at what will happen. There's even a small quest on Aya that prepares you for his LM without you knowing it. I guess I just read into that. And since I knew squadmates can't die, I wasn't worried. I admit if he did die from that, that would have been some awesome drama! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2017 23:38:39 GMT
If the shot, despite Akksul's hesitation, killed Jaal in the game, would you have still done what Jaal asked, and not shoot Akksul? That's the thing. The game hints a lot at what will happen. There's even a small quest on Aya that prepares you for his LM without you knowing it. I guess I just read into that. And since I knew squadmates can't die, I wasn't worried. I admit if he did die from that, that would have been some awesome drama! So, you did not reply. If he died, would you have stayed your hand or not? Now, imagine if it was a MMO, so you could not reload a save, and the outcome of Akksul's shot is completely random, and unknown to you. It can either blow Jaal's head off, or miss. Would you have taken the shot to save Jaal for sure, or let Akksul shoot? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2017 23:40:10 GMT
That's the thing. The game hints a lot at what will happen. There's even a small quest on Aya that prepares you for his LM without you knowing it. I guess I just read into that. And since I knew squadmates can't die, I wasn't worried. I admit if he did die from that, that would have been some awesome drama! So, you did not reply. If he died, would you have stayed your hand or not? Now, imagine if it was a MMO, so you could not reload a save, and the outcome of Akksul's shot is completely random, and unknown to you. It can either blow Jaal's head off, or miss. Would you have taken the shot to save Jaal for sure, or let Akksul shoot? If it meant the Roekaar threat ended, then yep. Jaal says not to shoot, so I won't. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2017 23:54:32 GMT
So, you did not reply. If he died, would you have stayed your hand or not? Now, imagine if it was a MMO, so you could not reload a save, and the outcome of Akksul's shot is completely random, and unknown to you. It can either blow Jaal's head off, or miss. Would you have taken the shot to save Jaal for sure, or let Akksul shoot? If it meant the Roekaar threat ended, then yep. Jaal says not to shoot, so I won't. Then hats off, you truly are saintly. I would have preferred that Jaal could come to terms with humans also being driven by strong emotions, and did not discontinue the romance for a Ryder who pulls the trigger. |
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Post by Revan Reborn on Apr 9, 2017 5:15:25 GMT
If it meant the Roekaar threat ended, then yep. Jaal says not to shoot, so I won't. Then hats off, you truly are saintly. I would have preferred that Jaal could come to terms with humans also being driven by strong emotions, and did not discontinue the romance for a Ryder who pulls the trigger. Truth be told, I find it a little unfair for an entire romance to be gated by one choice. Aksuul, for lack of a better term, is an ass. I didn't shoot him, but there are plenty of reasons for why I should have taken the shot. He was doing terrible things with his own people, and even the other Roekkar should have realized Aksuul was spewing venom and bigotry without evidence to support his wild claims. I also find it hard to believe the Roekkar would have been able to recover after Aksuul's death, considering he was the driving force and flame that kept the movement going. Cut the head off the snake and the organization quickly unwinds itself. It's not exactly the first time BioWare has botched a moral decision in one of its games. Aksuul had clearly lost his senses. I'm not sure why anyone would view him as a martyr, especially if Ryder, for the entire period up to that point in the game, had done nothing but help the Angara. It was just a silly situation in which BioWare forced its own "logic" on the player. Perhaps if the writing had done a better job of conveying why I shouldn't shoot the bastard, then Jaal's logic may have held more weight. It's just a bad choice with an unrealistic outcome. |
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 9, 2017 6:18:46 GMT
It's not exactly the first time BioWare has botched a moral decision in one of its games. Aksuul had clearly lost his senses. I'm not sure why anyone would view him as a martyr, especially if Ryder, for the entire period up to that point in the game, had done nothing but help the Angara. It was just a silly situation in which BioWare forced its own "logic" on the player. Perhaps if the writing had done a better job of conveying why I shouldn't shoot the bastard, then Jaal's logic may have held more weight. It's just a bad choice with an unrealistic outcome. I looked at Akksul as the equivalent of a religious fanatic. There was no use of logic to be used on him because the "faith" was so strong that he believed even his own lies. |
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Post by Revan Reborn on Apr 9, 2017 6:32:24 GMT
It's not exactly the first time BioWare has botched a moral decision in one of its games. Aksuul had clearly lost his senses. I'm not sure why anyone would view him as a martyr, especially if Ryder, for the entire period up to that point in the game, had done nothing but help the Angara. It was just a silly situation in which BioWare forced its own "logic" on the player. Perhaps if the writing had done a better job of conveying why I shouldn't shoot the bastard, then Jaal's logic may have held more weight. It's just a bad choice with an unrealistic outcome. I looked at Akksul as the equivalent of a religious fanatic. There was no use of logic to be used on him because the "faith" was so strong that he believed even his own lies. I certainly understand that from Aksuul's perspective. What I don't understand is why BioWare would penalize Sara Ryder by ending the romance with Jaal if she shoots Aksuul. I don't believe it's morally "wrong" to kill someone who just tried to blow up his own people's history to place blame on outsiders. I also don't see how Aksuul becomes a martyr, considering it seems he already lost credibility among his own people. It just seems like a horribly executed choice in which the player is forced to not pull the trigger because that is the "right" decision. In reality, it actually makes a lot more sense to kill Aksuul given how toxic and dangerous he is, not only to the Initiative, but to his own people. Whether Aksuul is capable of redemption or not is irrelevant. The reality is that he has fallen so far that he is a danger and a menace to everyone. The risk of allowing him to live is too high and quite frankly gives him the chance to do something far worse and sinister. We have to believe that our act of mercy will bring Aksuul on the path of "good." It's just a little too farfetched. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 6:51:25 GMT
I looked at Akksul as the equivalent of a religious fanatic. There was no use of logic to be used on him because the "faith" was so strong that he believed even his own lies. I certainly understand that from Aksuul's perspective. What I don't understand is why BioWare would penalize Sara Ryder by ending the romance with Jaal if she shoots Aksuul. I don't believe it's morally "wrong" to kill someone who just tried to blow up his own people's history to place blame on outsiders. I also don't see how Aksuul becomes a martyr, considering it seems he already lost credibility among his own people. It just seems like a horribly executed choice in which the player is forced to not pull the trigger because that is the "right" decision. In reality, it actually makes a lot more sense to kill Aksuul given how toxic and dangerous he is, not only to the Initiative, but to his own people. Whether Aksuul is capable of redemption or not is irrelevant. The reality is that he has fallen so far that he is a danger and a menace to everyone. The risk of allowing him to live is too high and quite frankly gives him the chance to do something far worse and sinister. We have to believe that our act of mercy will bring Aksuul on the path of "good." It's just a little too farfetched. They played the trust thing. Like with IB and the Chargers. Heck the facility choice is like that too. If you don't listen to Jaal who keeps telling you during his LM to trust him and do what he says, he thinks you don't trust him and backs away. |
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Post by Revan Reborn on Apr 9, 2017 7:10:35 GMT
I certainly understand that from Aksuul's perspective. What I don't understand is why BioWare would penalize Sara Ryder by ending the romance with Jaal if she shoots Aksuul. I don't believe it's morally "wrong" to kill someone who just tried to blow up his own people's history to place blame on outsiders. I also don't see how Aksuul becomes a martyr, considering it seems he already lost credibility among his own people. It just seems like a horribly executed choice in which the player is forced to not pull the trigger because that is the "right" decision. In reality, it actually makes a lot more sense to kill Aksuul given how toxic and dangerous he is, not only to the Initiative, but to his own people. Whether Aksuul is capable of redemption or not is irrelevant. The reality is that he has fallen so far that he is a danger and a menace to everyone. The risk of allowing him to live is too high and quite frankly gives him the chance to do something far worse and sinister. We have to believe that our act of mercy will bring Aksuul on the path of "good." It's just a little too farfetched. They played the trust thing. Like with IB and the Chargers. Heck the facility choice is like that too. If you don't listen to Jaal who keeps telling you during his LM to trust him and do what he says, he thinks you don't trust him and backs away. I understand your point of what BioWare was attempting to convey. And yes, Jaal states several times to trust him. My issue is still with the execution of the scene, itself. The fact that BioWare had to project to the player explicitly what he/she should do shows a failure to intuitively craft the situation naturally. Whether you shoot or not, from my perspective, isn't a matter of "trust." It's a matter of whether you want to bring an end to a destabilizing and destructive force once and for all. As I said, I didn't shoot Aksuul. However, I really wanted to and I don't believe I would have been wrong in doing so. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 7:22:18 GMT
They played the trust thing. Like with IB and the Chargers. Heck the facility choice is like that too. If you don't listen to Jaal who keeps telling you during his LM to trust him and do what he says, he thinks you don't trust him and backs away. I understand your point of what BioWare was attempting to convey. And yes, Jaal states several times to trust him. My issue is still with the execution of the scene, itself. The fact that BioWare had to project to the player explicitly what he/she should do shows a failure to intuitively craft the situation naturally. Whether you shoot or not, from my perspective, isn't a matter of "trust." It's a matter of whether you want to bring an end to a destabilizing and destructive force once and for all. As I said, I didn't shoot Aksuul. However, I really wanted to and I don't believe I would have been wrong in doing so. This is what I think they were trying though it came off a bit odd. What they attempted was also based on our first alien encounter too. We can choose to shoot the Kett or attempt contact. With Akksul, his followers see both Ryder and Jaal as enemies, so by shooting him, it makes us look like the bad guys to the Roekaar. We corrupted poor Jaal and the innocent Angara who is fighting because he loves his people was shot by the evil human just like he probably said would happen. By respecting Jaal's wishes and letting Akksul strike after saying we want to help the Angara, we prove him wrong. And then everyone leaves him. MEA is not like MET where choices are based on Paragon or Renegade. This game is about our reputation as aliens in Andromeda. We are not welcome and actions speak louder than words. So yeah, that's what I think they tried, but executed it poorly. |
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Post by Revan Reborn on Apr 9, 2017 7:48:24 GMT
I understand your point of what BioWare was attempting to convey. And yes, Jaal states several times to trust him. My issue is still with the execution of the scene, itself. The fact that BioWare had to project to the player explicitly what he/she should do shows a failure to intuitively craft the situation naturally. Whether you shoot or not, from my perspective, isn't a matter of "trust." It's a matter of whether you want to bring an end to a destabilizing and destructive force once and for all. As I said, I didn't shoot Aksuul. However, I really wanted to and I don't believe I would have been wrong in doing so. This is what I think they were trying though it came off a bit odd. What they attempted was also based on our first alien encounter too. We can choose to shoot the Kett or attempt contact. With Akksul, his followers see both Ryder and Jaal as enemies, so by shooting him, it makes us look like the bad guys to the Roekaar. We corrupted poor Jaal and the innocent Angara who is fighting because he loves his people was shot by the evil human just like he probably said would happen. By respecting Jaal's wishes and letting Akksul strike after saying we want to help the Angara, we prove him wrong. And then everyone leaves him. MEA is not like MET where choices are based on Paragon or Renegade. This game is about our reputation as aliens in Andromeda. We are not welcome and actions speak louder than words. So yeah, that's what I think they tried, but executed it poorly. While I agree that's what BioWare was trying to convey, I believe many of the events that occur up to that point contradict this basic idea that "all aliens are bad." As I said before, Ryder had already proven time and time again that he/she was helping the Angara against the Kett, who were an actual threat. By saving the Moshae and blowing up the Kett base on Voeld or deciding to save the Angara prisoners makes most of the Angara population on Aya happy with you. There is also a lot of distrust between the Angara and Roekkar just from listening to all of the terminals during the loyalty mission, and we even see Jaal's siblings begin to see the error in their ways. The fact that the Roekkar would just blindly go along with a plan to blackmail the Initiative by blowing up their own cultural landmarks is even more puzzling. Nothing of what Askuul was doing or saying would make sense to a reasonable person with individual thought. He clearly had gone too far, which is why I, again, don't see this "martyr" argument BioWare attempted to convey. The guy was out of control and the Roekkar wasn't sustainable without his twisted propaganda to fabricate an enemy that did not exist. Had this loyalty mission come much earlier in the game before Ryder had done anything to help the Angara, it might have made more sense. That's not the case, however, and it just feels odd that shooting an enemy that both parties would likely agree is bad would lead to Ryder being punished. It was just an awkward situation to be put in. It was just one of those decisions that I felt I lost either way, and for no good reason. |
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Post by toomanyclouds on Apr 9, 2017 7:50:13 GMT
I looked at Akksul as the equivalent of a religious fanatic. There was no use of logic to be used on him because the "faith" was so strong that he believed even his own lies. I certainly understand that from Aksuul's perspective. What I don't understand is why BioWare would penalize Sara Ryder by ending the romance with Jaal if she shoots Aksuul. I don't believe it's morally "wrong" to kill someone who just tried to blow up his own people's history to place blame on outsiders. I also don't see how Aksuul becomes a martyr, considering it seems he already lost credibility among his own people. It just seems like a horribly executed choice in which the player is forced to not pull the trigger because that is the "right" decision. In reality, it actually makes a lot more sense to kill Aksuul given how toxic and dangerous he is, not only to the Initiative, but to his own people. Whether Aksuul is capable of redemption or not is irrelevant. The reality is that he has fallen so far that he is a danger and a menace to everyone. The risk of allowing him to live is too high and quite frankly gives him the chance to do something far worse and sinister. We have to believe that our act of mercy will bring Aksuul on the path of "good." It's just a little too farfetched. It's not a penalty, though. It's Jaal's decision. Is it fair? Probably not. Is it logical? Yeah, probably also not. But it's pretty clear to me it's a reaction to how Jaal emotionally views this situation. As for the Roekaar, you are an alien who just shot the leader of a faction of fanatics who already hate aliens in the head, right in front of all of them. Was he also doing something stupid? Yes, but they are clearly not led by logic. He already dared you to make him a martyr. Politically, it's clearly the wrong choice to shoot him; but in terms of protecting your squad, it's probably the right choice because you can't count on Akksul whiffing. It puts you in a bad spot and there's no real right answer, you either risk Jaal's life an d thus pretty much fail in your duties as the squad leader, or you risk the life of a lot of other people who will be attacked by the now ideologically strengthened Roekaar, but wouldn't it be boring if the game only presented you with choices that have a clear good answer? (Interestingly, I did not get a mail from Akksul, but I also don't think Ryder's decision had anything to do with his change of heart. He was probably more shocked by what he himself had been driven to do, Ryder is just an incidental puzzle piece in this.) When it comes to shooting Akksul, you can make a good case for either side. But if Ryder is not the kind of person who can trust Jaal with this decision, foolhardy as it may be, then the game tells us she's just not the right person for Jaal. The game never implies that this makes her a less moral person, it just implies it makes her incompatible with him. That's not a crime on Ryder's part - or on Jaal's for that matter. I wish more romances had these kind of gates (even if one gate is perhaps a bit too strict). One of the recurring complaints about the romances throughout the ME series was that you can go full lulz renegade and do the most terrible shit and your lover will not give a single solitary damn even if personality-wise, they would have to disagree and probably kick you out of bed. This is definitely a step in the right direction for the romances. It's nowhere near as detailed as the Approval system of the DA games, but at least Jaal reacts to anything at all you're doing in the game like real people are prone to do sometimes. |
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