inherit
3657
0
2,378
Revan Reborn
Pathfinder
2,000
Feb 19, 2017 18:14:40 GMT
February 2017
revanreborn
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Pax_Augusta
Heero the pilot
Pax_Augusta01
|
Post by Revan Reborn on Apr 9, 2017 8:21:32 GMT
I certainly understand that from Aksuul's perspective. What I don't understand is why BioWare would penalize Sara Ryder by ending the romance with Jaal if she shoots Aksuul. I don't believe it's morally "wrong" to kill someone who just tried to blow up his own people's history to place blame on outsiders. I also don't see how Aksuul becomes a martyr, considering it seems he already lost credibility among his own people. It just seems like a horribly executed choice in which the player is forced to not pull the trigger because that is the "right" decision. In reality, it actually makes a lot more sense to kill Aksuul given how toxic and dangerous he is, not only to the Initiative, but to his own people. Whether Aksuul is capable of redemption or not is irrelevant. The reality is that he has fallen so far that he is a danger and a menace to everyone. The risk of allowing him to live is too high and quite frankly gives him the chance to do something far worse and sinister. We have to believe that our act of mercy will bring Aksuul on the path of "good." It's just a little too farfetched. It's not a penalty, though. It's Jaal's decision. Is it fair? Probably not. Is it logical? Yeah, probably also not. But it's pretty clear to me it's a reaction to how Jaal emotionally views this situation. As for the Roekaar, you are an alien who just shot the leader of a faction of fanatics who already hate aliens in the head, right in front of all of them. Was he also doing something stupid? Yes, but they are clearly not led by logic. He already dared you to make him a martyr. Politically, it's clearly the wrong choice to shoot him; but in terms of protecting your squad, it's probably the right choice because you can't count on Akksul whiffing. It puts you in a bad spot and there's no real right answer, you either risk Jaal's life or you risk the life of a lot of other people who will be attacked by the now ideologically strengthened Roekaar, but wouldn't it be boring if the game only presented you with choices that have a good answer? When it comes to shooting Akksul, you can make a good case for either side. But if Ryder is not the kind of person who can trust Jaal with this decision, foolhardy as it may be, then the game tells us she's just not the right person for Jaal. The game never implies that this makes her a less moral person, it just implies it makes her incompatible with him. That's not a crime on Ryder's part - or on Jaal's for that matter. I wish more romances had these kind of gates (even if one gate is perhaps a bit too strict). One of the recurring complaints about the romances throughout the ME series was that you can go full lulz renegade and do the most terrible shit and your lover will not give a single solitary damn even if personality-wise, they would have to disagree and probably kick you out of bed. This is definitely a step in the right direction for the romances. It's nowhere near as detailed as the Approval system of the DA games, but at least Jaal reacts to anything at all you're doing in the game like real people are prone to do sometimes. I actually enjoy moral dilemmas. I appreciate games that challenge my intellect and make me consider the consequences. I just don't happen to believe this particular scenario was adequately constructed or would lead to the consequences BioWare presented. As I said, there was already evidence the Roekkar was falling apart and Akksul was quickly losing credibility. Regardless of Jaal's feelings on your choice, it would seem the Roekkar would have been weaker irrespective of whether you shoot or not. Akksul already discredited himself. I don't see how killing Akksul would have actually escalated tensions. In that case, I'd consider Jaal's response to your actions poor writing at worst, or a character flaw at best. After all of the challenges and obstacles they had overcome to that point, it feels inconsistent and unconvincing that Jaal would just cut the romance short. From all of the dialogue of Jaal learning to trust outsiders to even saying he sees the Tempest crew as a family, one conflicted choice to completely shut off a romance seems a bit much. It's really a selfish and impossible situation for Jaal to force Sara into. I definitely agree that I'd like squadmates to have their own moral compass and dump you if you did something that so horribly offended their sensibilities. I just don't see the Jaal dilemma as a quality example of that approach. DAI wasn't much better because the approval/disapproval system seemed so arbitrary (you never could even see how much approval/disapproval you had). I never really agreed with Cassandra on anything when it came to the role of the Chantry and how to treat mages. That being said, I never had an issue romancing her and never once worried about approval. I'd be surprised if she approved of half of what I did, especially when I made Leliana the next Divine. Cassandra more or less told me that Leliana would be the end of the Chantry. I do think that regardless of what BioWare decides to do next, they need to reexamine how they incorporate romances into their games. It's just my opinion, but I felt the showing on romance execution in this game was far weaker than DAI and ME3. That's rather disappointing when this is one of the features BioWare always brags about the most.
|
|
solaxe
N2
Posts: 100 Likes: 141
inherit
4787
0
Sept 12, 2017 13:31:56 GMT
141
solaxe
100
Mar 17, 2017 10:18:15 GMT
March 2017
solaxe
|
Post by solaxe on Apr 9, 2017 8:44:24 GMT
Drack. He's pretty much the only squadmate who has any sort of nuanced complexity whatsoever. What complexity lol. He's another boring generic "I'm gonna shoot stuff" Krogan
|
|
inherit
6799
0
Jul 11, 2017 11:39:13 GMT
948
toomanyclouds
249
April 2017
toomanyclouds
|
Post by toomanyclouds on Apr 9, 2017 9:10:40 GMT
It's not a penalty, though. It's Jaal's decision. Is it fair? Probably not. Is it logical? Yeah, probably also not. But it's pretty clear to me it's a reaction to how Jaal emotionally views this situation. As for the Roekaar, you are an alien who just shot the leader of a faction of fanatics who already hate aliens in the head, right in front of all of them. Was he also doing something stupid? Yes, but they are clearly not led by logic. He already dared you to make him a martyr. Politically, it's clearly the wrong choice to shoot him; but in terms of protecting your squad, it's probably the right choice because you can't count on Akksul whiffing. It puts you in a bad spot and there's no real right answer, you either risk Jaal's life or you risk the life of a lot of other people who will be attacked by the now ideologically strengthened Roekaar, but wouldn't it be boring if the game only presented you with choices that have a good answer? When it comes to shooting Akksul, you can make a good case for either side. But if Ryder is not the kind of person who can trust Jaal with this decision, foolhardy as it may be, then the game tells us she's just not the right person for Jaal. The game never implies that this makes her a less moral person, it just implies it makes her incompatible with him. That's not a crime on Ryder's part - or on Jaal's for that matter. I wish more romances had these kind of gates (even if one gate is perhaps a bit too strict). One of the recurring complaints about the romances throughout the ME series was that you can go full lulz renegade and do the most terrible shit and your lover will not give a single solitary damn even if personality-wise, they would have to disagree and probably kick you out of bed. This is definitely a step in the right direction for the romances. It's nowhere near as detailed as the Approval system of the DA games, but at least Jaal reacts to anything at all you're doing in the game like real people are prone to do sometimes. I actually enjoy moral dilemmas. I appreciate games that challenge my intellect and make me consider the consequences. I just don't happen to believe this particular scenario was adequately constructed or would lead to the consequences BioWare presented. As I said, there was already evidence the Roekkar was falling apart and Akksul was quickly losing credibility. Regardless of Jaal's feelings on your choice, it would seem the Roekkar would have been weaker irrespective of whether you shoot or not. Akksul already discredited himself. I don't see how killing Akksul would have actually escalated tensions. In that case, I'd consider Jaal's response to your actions poor writing at worst, or a character flaw at best. After all of the challenges and obstacles they had overcome to that point, it feels inconsistent and unconvincing that Jaal would just cut the romance short. From all of the dialogue of Jaal learning to trust outsiders to even saying he sees the Tempest crew as a family, one conflicted choice to completely shut off a romance seems a bit much. It's really a selfish and impossible situation for Jaal to force Sara into. I definitely agree that I'd like squadmates to have their own moral compass and dump you if you did something that so horribly offended their sensibilities. I just don't see the Jaal dilemma as a quality example of that approach. DAI wasn't much better because the approval/disapproval system seemed so arbitrary (you never could even see how much approval/disapproval you had). I never really agreed with Cassandra on anything when it came to the role of the Chantry and how to treat mages. That being said, I never had an issue romancing her and never once worried about approval. I'd be surprised if she approved of half of what I did, especially when I made Leliana the next Divine. Cassandra more or less told me that Leliana would be the end of the Chantry. I do think that regardless of what BioWare decides to do next, they need to reexamine how they incorporate romances into their games. It's just my opinion, but I felt the showing on romance execution in this game was far weaker than DAI and ME3. That's rather disappointing when this is one of the features BioWare always brags about the most. I mean, good ideas - poor execution has been a theme with this game, so yes, I think the writing here could be better, but I also don't think that a decision feeling illogical or unfair is bad writing. People dump you for illogical, emotional reasons all the time and it's not like the whole mission didn't flag you 15 times in a row that shooting Akksul will have consequences regarding both the Roekaar and Jaal (I mean, Akksul flat out says "this will make me a martyr" because yes, he was starting to lose credibility, but your just gave it back to him by proving him right with a bullet in his head). I think for Jaal it would make more sense if you needed to hit both the "destroyed the kett facility" and "shot Akksul", because then you'd show a pattern of disrespecting his wishes and being obviously at odds with his own values. However, I'll take something over nothing, and at least Jaal was allowed to display some semblance of agency with his choice to dump Ryder. The Approval system always had the problem that it could be gamed. In DA:O you could do whatever and then throw presents at your companions' heads, in DA2 being able to see the Approval rating meant you could really pick and choose for missions which characters to take along if you needed another +20 approval (for example, if you knew you were gonna face mages and wanted to be nice to them, just don't take Fenris). In DA:I I think you still get the "Leliana approves +20" or whatever at the side, but people complained it's unrealistic to have a slider that shows you how much people like you, so they took that out. But that meant you only knew whether your approval was really high or really low because that triggered certain mini-missions and conversations, if I remember. Out of all of these, DA2 was probably still my favourite because yes, it's not realistic, but video game mechanics generally aren't, and the rivalmances actually meant your romance was different based on Approval rating. I liked the romances here, but only because the extensive loyalty missions show you a good amount of personal content for the potential "lover". Every romance that's not a squad romance very much shows all the weaknesses, even if on their own they're maybe charming (like Suvi). DA2 had an interesting, if also flawed idea with the "rival romances" that at least provided some variation. I'm not sure I want that back, but I think they could probably scrap the Keris and angaran historians of the ME world and maybe put that development time into the main romances and give them more branching paths. Sadly there are limits on what can be done. I still remember the freakouts when Anders actually flirted first with all Hawkes, even male ones, like, once - that was not a good idea, a lot of gamers were noooot secure enough in their masculinity for that. So romances will probably always have to be reactive, for example, which is already a big restriction.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
1255
0
Nov 30, 2024 10:50:44 GMT
Deleted
0
Nov 30, 2024 10:50:44 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 11:55:19 GMT
They played the trust thing. Like with IB and the Chargers. Heck the facility choice is like that too. If you don't listen to Jaal who keeps telling you during his LM to trust him and do what he says, he thinks you don't trust him and backs away. I understand your point of what BioWare was attempting to convey. And yes, Jaal states several times to trust him. My issue is still with the execution of the scene, itself. The fact that BioWare had to project to the player explicitly what he/she should do shows a failure to intuitively craft the situation naturally. Whether you shoot or not, from my perspective, isn't a matter of "trust." It's a matter of whether you want to bring an end to a destabilizing and destructive force once and for all. As I said, I didn't shoot Aksuul. However, I really wanted to and I don't believe I would have been wrong in doing so. Thing is to me it comes across as Jaal values blind obedience rather than trust in his women, and will not accept anything but. Combined with his large family enclave, and him signing up to participate in Suvi's comparative religious study group, he is not someone I really like. I will comply with the game's decision to play his romance to the end because it is a story that is very important to Andromeda's realm. But, yeah, he feels too conservative to me in his world-views to like. If I knew it from the start, I would probably still do the romance (again, plot-important) but I might have kept other option opened, so I had an alternative to fall back on that moment I came to the ship and it became obvious that the romance was broken. I was absolutely not a part of the camp that complained about either ME or DA2 romances. Or freaked out when Anders flirted with my PC.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
3344
0
Nov 30, 2024 10:50:44 GMT
Deleted
0
Nov 30, 2024 10:50:44 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 15:52:44 GMT
I understand your point of what BioWare was attempting to convey. And yes, Jaal states several times to trust him. My issue is still with the execution of the scene, itself. The fact that BioWare had to project to the player explicitly what he/she should do shows a failure to intuitively craft the situation naturally. Whether you shoot or not, from my perspective, isn't a matter of "trust." It's a matter of whether you want to bring an end to a destabilizing and destructive force once and for all. As I said, I didn't shoot Aksuul. However, I really wanted to and I don't believe I would have been wrong in doing so. Thing is to me it comes across as Jaal values blind obedience rather than trust in his women, and will not accept anything but. Combined with his large family enclave, and him signing up to participate in Suvi's comparative religious study group, he is not someone I really like. I will comply with the game's decision to play his romance to the end because it is a story that is very important to Andromeda's realm. But, yeah, he feels too conservative to me in his world-views to like. If I knew it from the start, I would probably still do the romance (again, plot-important) but I might have kept other option opened, so I had an alternative to fall back on that moment I came to the ship and it became obvious that the romance was broken. I was absolutely not a part of the camp that complained about either ME or DA2 romances. Or freaked out when Anders flirted with my PC. Oh no. There's more to it than that (Angara ways and rules of how they work taught me that), but that's fine.
|
|
Zatche
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Posts: 130 Likes: 152
inherit
680
0
Apr 24, 2019 19:30:01 GMT
152
Zatche
130
August 2016
zatche
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
|
Post by Zatche on Apr 9, 2017 16:04:17 GMT
Drack was my favorite. At first, he seemed like a generic badass. But then the story revealed that despite his fighting prowess and experience, he sees a better way forward with Kesh's diplomacy and Vorn's mind for science. He questions his own usefulness and sees himself as expendable.
His loyalty mission was good at fleshing him out this way. And the scene where he opens up about meeting Kesh was great.
I also really liked Cora's mission. Liam's was fun even if I did find his recklessness a bit annoying.
|
|
melbella
N7
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
Prime Posts: 2186
Prime Likes: 5778
Posts: 8,440 Likes: 26,232
inherit
214
0
26,232
melbella
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
8,440
August 2016
melbella
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
melbella
2186
5778
|
Post by melbella on Apr 9, 2017 16:14:19 GMT
Remember, this is Jaal's loyalty mission. It's not about the Resistance vs the Roekarr. It's about Jaal and how he views Ryder. It's like Tali's LM in ME2. If you turn over the evidence against her wishes, you don't gain her loyalty and any romance is off the table. Understandable, imo, since you just proved, same as the admirals, that you don't give a damn about Tali. Granted, Shepard has 4 ways to gain her loyalty in that mission, whereas Ryder only has 1 in this instance, but the principle is the same.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
3344
0
Nov 30, 2024 10:50:44 GMT
Deleted
0
Nov 30, 2024 10:50:44 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 16:16:14 GMT
Remember, this is Jaal's loyalty mission. It's not about the Resistance vs the Roekarr. It's about Jaal and how he views Ryder. It's like Tali's LM in ME2. If you turn over the evidence against her wishes, you don't gain her loyalty and any romance is off the table. Understandable, imo, since you just proved, same as the admirals, that you don't give a damn about Tali. Granted, Shepard has 4 ways to gain her loyalty in that mission, whereas Ryder only has 1 in this instance, but the principle is the same. Ugh... the first time I did that LM I was so screwed...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
1255
0
Nov 30, 2024 10:50:44 GMT
Deleted
0
Nov 30, 2024 10:50:44 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 16:23:29 GMT
Remember, this is Jaal's loyalty mission. It's not about the Resistance vs the Roekarr. It's about Jaal and how he views Ryder. It's like Tali's LM in ME2. If you turn over the evidence against her wishes, you don't gain her loyalty and any romance is off the table. Understandable, imo, since you just proved, same as the admirals, that you don't give a damn about Tali. Granted, Shepard has 4 ways to gain her loyalty in that mission, whereas Ryder only has 1 in this instance, but the principle is the same. You gain his loyalty though. It breaks his romance. I can't see how shooting someone to save his life over the important political considerations is not giving damn about him. Just the opposite to me. Willing to buy his life at any price, imo an ultimate test of loyalty, but whatever. Bio disagrees and want you to stand there and see him saved miraculously, then weep in relief. Anyhow, I just finished PeeBee's interminable loyalty mission, and it certainly wins in terms of the worst. At least, i could shoot Kalinda there to end that nonsense. And, yay, don't have to do Drake's by the look of it, and can live all the Krogans to their own devices on their planet.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
3344
0
Nov 30, 2024 10:50:44 GMT
Deleted
0
Nov 30, 2024 10:50:44 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 16:27:53 GMT
Remember, this is Jaal's loyalty mission. It's not about the Resistance vs the Roekarr. It's about Jaal and how he views Ryder. It's like Tali's LM in ME2. If you turn over the evidence against her wishes, you don't gain her loyalty and any romance is off the table. Understandable, imo, since you just proved, same as the admirals, that you don't give a damn about Tali. Granted, Shepard has 4 ways to gain her loyalty in that mission, whereas Ryder only has 1 in this instance, but the principle is the same. You gain his loyalty though. It breaks his romance. I can't see how shooting someone to save his life over the important political considerations is not giving damn about him. Just the opposite to me. That's just how BW does it. Some have logically argued giving Cullen the lyrium to keep him focused and not suffer withdrawal is the better choice in the middle of a war, but then he turns around and ends his relationship with you, despite you wanting him to stop suffering.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
1255
0
Nov 30, 2024 10:50:44 GMT
Deleted
0
Nov 30, 2024 10:50:44 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 16:33:25 GMT
You gain his loyalty though. It breaks his romance. I can't see how shooting someone to save his life over the important political considerations is not giving damn about him. Just the opposite to me. That's just how BW does it. Some have logically argued giving Cullen the lyrium to keep him focused and not suffer withdrawal is the better choice in the middle of a war, but then he turns around and ends his relationship with you, despite you wanting him to stop suffering. That's not the same. Keeping a guy on drugs is evil. It's obvious why Cullen would break up with you. He is not going to die without lyrium. He chooses to go through withdrawals. Respecting his wishes is absolutely understandable. Saving Jaal's life, again, over the important political considerations, over another man's life, over EVERYTHING ELSE is by far, by far more of a passing the test of loyalty then standing there and watching him die and then say: "Well, he seemed to think it would be Okay. Oh, well, better luck next time." Anyway, I do not emotionally accept this explanation for the sub-plot, this gate made my character do something that I consider wrong in order to preserve the romance, and as a result the romance lost its charm for me, and became a mechanical dialogue clicker. The only time I fully enjoyed it was when I did take that shot, because my character was such a bad-ass at that point,and so fully committed, and so in love. And totally deserving of a man falling for her really hard.
|
|
Mihura
N4
“Major Wulf Khan and the 903rd Catachan ‘Night Shrikes’…”
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: MihuraL
Posts: 1,303 Likes: 2,754
inherit
1951
0
Jun 10, 2024 22:52:29 GMT
2,754
Mihura
“Major Wulf Khan and the 903rd Catachan ‘Night Shrikes’…”
1,303
November 2016
mihura
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
MihuraL
|
Post by Mihura on Apr 9, 2017 16:37:15 GMT
Hummm Cora? Saying to Sarissa that she was her biggest fan was hilarious. Idk Vetra was cool because of the mechanics, Liam was a hilarious ride but I like Drack a lot, there was a cinematic feel to it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
3344
0
Nov 30, 2024 10:50:44 GMT
Deleted
0
Nov 30, 2024 10:50:44 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 16:38:52 GMT
That's just how BW does it. Some have logically argued giving Cullen the lyrium to keep him focused and not suffer withdrawal is the better choice in the middle of a war, but then he turns around and ends his relationship with you, despite you wanting him to stop suffering. That's not the same. Keeping a guy on drugs is evil. It's obvious why Cullen would break up with you. He is not going to die without lyrium. He chooses to go through withdrawals. Respecting his wishes is absolutely understandable. Saving Jaal's life, again, over the important political considerations, over another man's life, over EVERYTHING ELSE is by far, by far more of a passing the test of loyalty then standing there and watching him die and they say: "Well, he seemed to thing it would be Okay." Anyway, I do not emotionally accept this explanation for the sub-plot, this gate made my character do something that I consider wrong in order to preserve the romance, and as a result the romance lost its charm for me, and became a mechanical dialogue clicker. The only time I fully enjoyed it was when I did take that shot, because my character was such a bad-ass at that point. And totally deserving of a man falling for her really hard. I know it can be argued as that but I'm saying this is how BW sees things. It's not how we see things, but how they see it. To them, Jaal putting his faith in you and his trust and thinking it was returned equally, to the point you'd listen to what he says like he asks earlier in the LM, and then having you ignore it and shoot Akksul to save him is what he considers the breaking point. For me, I think the breaking point should be if you destroy the facility AND shoot Akksul. At this point you are always ignoring Jaal's feelings and you could say he was still upset you let all those Angara die since you keep putting your feelings for revenge first, but that was a missed thing.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
1255
0
Nov 30, 2024 10:50:44 GMT
Deleted
0
Nov 30, 2024 10:50:44 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 16:48:02 GMT
That's not the same. Keeping a guy on drugs is evil. It's obvious why Cullen would break up with you. He is not going to die without lyrium. He chooses to go through withdrawals. Respecting his wishes is absolutely understandable. Saving Jaal's life, again, over the important political considerations, over another man's life, over EVERYTHING ELSE is by far, by far more of a passing the test of loyalty then standing there and watching him die and they say: "Well, he seemed to thing it would be Okay." Anyway, I do not emotionally accept this explanation for the sub-plot, this gate made my character do something that I consider wrong in order to preserve the romance, and as a result the romance lost its charm for me, and became a mechanical dialogue clicker. The only time I fully enjoyed it was when I did take that shot, because my character was such a bad-ass at that point. And totally deserving of a man falling for her really hard. I know it can be argued as that but I'm saying this is how BW sees things. It's not how we see things, but how they see it. To them, Jaal putting his faith in you and his trust and thinking it was returned equally, to the point you'd listen to what he says like he asks earlier in the LM, and then having you ignore it and shoot Akksul to save him is what he considers the breaking point. For me, I think the breaking point should be if you destroy the facility AND shoot Akksul. At this point you are always ignoring Jaal's feelings and you could say he was still upset you let all those Angara die since you keep putting your feelings for revenge first, but that was a missed thing. That would be fine with me. I know that this is what BioWARE choice was, but it does not align with mine to the degree that it invalidated whatever feelings they managed to build for me for the couple. If I still had the choice at that point to continue liam's Romance, I probably would have despite every possible check-mark in the game being in favor of Jaal's romance. I have diligently role-played up to that point as Ryder in love with Jaal, and only Jaal, so refusing every other relationship, and that also played a role in that I felt my Ryder was betrayed, because she did every single thing to show how much she cared, including shooting Akksul, and was rejected. I did not like that treatment of the protagonist by BioWARE. I maintain that I believe it was a very ill chosen gate on their part.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
3344
0
Nov 30, 2024 10:50:44 GMT
Deleted
0
Nov 30, 2024 10:50:44 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 16:52:30 GMT
I know it can be argued as that but I'm saying this is how BW sees things. It's not how we see things, but how they see it. To them, Jaal putting his faith in you and his trust and thinking it was returned equally, to the point you'd listen to what he says like he asks earlier in the LM, and then having you ignore it and shoot Akksul to save him is what he considers the breaking point. For me, I think the breaking point should be if you destroy the facility AND shoot Akksul. At this point you are always ignoring Jaal's feelings and you could say he was still upset you let all those Angara die since you keep putting your feelings for revenge first, but that was a missed thing. That would be fine with me. I know that this is what BioWARE choice was, but it does not align with mine to the degree that it invalidated whatever feelings they managed to build for me for the couple. If I still had the choice at that point to continue liam's Romance, I probably would have despite every possible check-mark in the game being in favor of Jaal's romance. I have diligently role-played up to that point as Ryder in love with Jaal, and only Jaal, so refusing every other relationship, and that also played a role in that I felt my Ryder was betrayed, because she did every single thing to show how much she cared, including shooting Akksul, and was rejected. I did not like that treatment of the protagonist by BioWARE. I maintain that I believe it was a very ill chosen gate on their part. Yeah it should have only happened if you kept doing everything to upset him leading up to it, but just that once choice should not count. I think they had originally planned for that if you did things he didn't like during the whole game, but cut it last minute if I remember correctly. Jaal was meant to be hard to romance (really hard) and also hard to earn the trust of, plus his romance was supposed to be happy and sad. Things were likely cut.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
1255
0
Nov 30, 2024 10:50:44 GMT
Deleted
0
Nov 30, 2024 10:50:44 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 16:58:41 GMT
That would be fine with me. I know that this is what BioWARE choice was, but it does not align with mine to the degree that it invalidated whatever feelings they managed to build for me for the couple. If I still had the choice at that point to continue liam's Romance, I probably would have despite every possible check-mark in the game being in favor of Jaal's romance. I have diligently role-played up to that point as Ryder in love with Jaal, and only Jaal, so refusing every other relationship, and that also played a role in that I felt my Ryder was betrayed, because she did every single thing to show how much she cared, including shooting Akksul, and was rejected. I did not like that treatment of the protagonist by BioWARE. I maintain that I believe it was a very ill chosen gate on their part. Yeah it should have only happened if you kept doing everything to upset him leading up to it, but just that once choice should not count. I think they had originally planned for that if you did things he didn't like during the whole game, but cut it last minute if I remember correctly. Jaal was meant to be hard to romance (really hard) and also hard to earn the trust of, plus his romance was supposed to be happy and sad. Things were likely cut. Well, the Loyalty Missions do their job in that they certainly helped me define very clearly how I feel about each companion. Their personalities, and our mutual like-dislikes emerged rather clearly by now, as I am approaching the wrap down of my first PT. I can see which companions I will mostly play with on the follow up PT with my M!Ryder. If I feel like more than 2PT, I will also replay a F!Ryder w/o zeroing in on Jaal that time.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
3344
0
Nov 30, 2024 10:50:44 GMT
Deleted
0
Nov 30, 2024 10:50:44 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 17:00:54 GMT
Yeah it should have only happened if you kept doing everything to upset him leading up to it, but just that once choice should not count. I think they had originally planned for that if you did things he didn't like during the whole game, but cut it last minute if I remember correctly. Jaal was meant to be hard to romance (really hard) and also hard to earn the trust of, plus his romance was supposed to be happy and sad. Things were likely cut. Well, the Loyalty Missions do their job in that they certainly helped me define very clearly how I feel about each companion. Their personalities, and our mutual like-dislikes emerged rather clearly by now, as I am approaching the wrap down of my first PT. I can see which companions I will mostly play with on the follow up PT with my M!Ryder. If I feel like more than 2PT, I will also replay a F!Ryder w/o zeroing in on Jaal that time. That's good! I kind of love them all, so I'm alright with how they played out, but it does seem that the Day 1 patch they added before releasing the game removed some stuff that would have invested deeper in the romances and friendships, so we have cut content with lack of real development regarding some of them. Leading up to Liam's LM, I was pretty damn confused to how we ended up there tbh. He seemed to have the least content before it happens.
|
|
inherit
3657
0
2,378
Revan Reborn
Pathfinder
2,000
Feb 19, 2017 18:14:40 GMT
February 2017
revanreborn
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Pax_Augusta
Heero the pilot
Pax_Augusta01
|
Post by Revan Reborn on Apr 9, 2017 18:54:29 GMT
Well, the Loyalty Missions do their job in that they certainly helped me define very clearly how I feel about each companion. Their personalities, and our mutual like-dislikes emerged rather clearly by now, as I am approaching the wrap down of my first PT. I can see which companions I will mostly play with on the follow up PT with my M!Ryder. If I feel like more than 2PT, I will also replay a F!Ryder w/o zeroing in on Jaal that time. That's good! I kind of love them all, so I'm alright with how they played out, but it does seem that the Day 1 patch they added before releasing the game removed some stuff that would have invested deeper in the romances and friendships, so we have cut content with lack of real development regarding some of them. Leading up to Liam's LM, I was pretty damn confused to how we ended up there tbh. He seemed to have the least content before it happens. That really goes back to my point of the glaring inequalities in the romances. Unless you pick Jaal, Cora, or Peebee, everybody else just comes across as an afterthought. I think it would be in BioWare's best interest to not have so many romance options, and focus on making at most four really good ones. Two male and two female that can be romanced by anybody. I think that would likely please most fans. I will say that I felt the overall pacing of loyalty missions in this game was a bit odd. Some of them happened really quickly (Liam) while others took forever to get to (Peebee). I don't mind the loyalty missions happening at different points in the game. It just seems a big strange some happen relatively early into the game while some don't happen until closer to the end. I'm a completionist, so I do everything as I go.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
3344
0
Nov 30, 2024 10:50:44 GMT
Deleted
0
Nov 30, 2024 10:50:44 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 19:09:12 GMT
That's good! I kind of love them all, so I'm alright with how they played out, but it does seem that the Day 1 patch they added before releasing the game removed some stuff that would have invested deeper in the romances and friendships, so we have cut content with lack of real development regarding some of them. Leading up to Liam's LM, I was pretty damn confused to how we ended up there tbh. He seemed to have the least content before it happens. That really goes back to my point of the glaring inequalities in the romances. Unless you pick Jaal, Cora, or Peebee, everybody else just comes across as an afterthought. I think it would be in BioWare's best interest to not have so many romance options, and focus on making at most four really good ones. Two male and two female that can be romanced by anybody. I think that would likely please most fans. I will say that I felt the overall pacing of loyalty missions in this game was a bit odd. Some of them happened really quickly (Liam) while others took forever to get to (Peebee). I don't mind the loyalty missions happening at different points in the game. It just seems a big strange some happen relatively early into the game while some don't happen until closer to the end. I'm a completionist, so I do everything as I go. I was almost 100% sure Liam was Sara's "canon" romance, so when I saw his romance I was really shocked! I even expected Liam to be her LI in the launch trailer, but it was Jaal. I'm thinking Liam was not written first for her, but Jaal was, and since Cathleen wrote both Jaal and the main plot, she connected them. I actually got Liam's LM last. His took forever even though I had all the outposts earlier, but from scanning a weapon's stand to ending up on a broken ship trying to find his friend, I was lost at how we got from A to C without B.
|
|
inherit
3657
0
2,378
Revan Reborn
Pathfinder
2,000
Feb 19, 2017 18:14:40 GMT
February 2017
revanreborn
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Pax_Augusta
Heero the pilot
Pax_Augusta01
|
Post by Revan Reborn on Apr 9, 2017 19:35:33 GMT
That really goes back to my point of the glaring inequalities in the romances. Unless you pick Jaal, Cora, or Peebee, everybody else just comes across as an afterthought. I think it would be in BioWare's best interest to not have so many romance options, and focus on making at most four really good ones. Two male and two female that can be romanced by anybody. I think that would likely please most fans. I will say that I felt the overall pacing of loyalty missions in this game was a bit odd. Some of them happened really quickly (Liam) while others took forever to get to (Peebee). I don't mind the loyalty missions happening at different points in the game. It just seems a big strange some happen relatively early into the game while some don't happen until closer to the end. I'm a completionist, so I do everything as I go. I was almost 100% sure Liam was Sara's "canon" romance, so when I saw his romance I was really shocked! I even expected Liam to be her LI in the launch trailer, but it was Jaal. I'm thinking Liam was not written first for her, but Jaal was, and since Cathleen wrote both Jaal and the main plot, she connected them. I actually got Liam's LM last. His took forever even though I had all the outposts earlier, but from scanning a weapon's stand to ending up on a broken ship trying to find his friend, I was lost at how we got from A to C without B. Considering Jaal was never really talked about in the marketing phase for the game, I think everybody assumed Liam was the main love interest for Sara. It was just one of those hidden secrets BioWare was keeping to itself. As far as the main plot, Chris Schlerf wrote the main story for Mass Effect Andromeda. I don't know what role Cathleen may have had, but I figure the only reason Jaal was so tied to the main plot is because he was Angaran. That's interesting. I guess it's entirely dependent on how one approaches the various tasks at hand. I'd have to go through the game again as I don't particularly remember how each loyalty mission is activated. Some just came across as being very long-winded, having you travel all over.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
3344
0
Nov 30, 2024 10:50:44 GMT
Deleted
0
Nov 30, 2024 10:50:44 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 19:36:32 GMT
I was almost 100% sure Liam was Sara's "canon" romance, so when I saw his romance I was really shocked! I even expected Liam to be her LI in the launch trailer, but it was Jaal. I'm thinking Liam was not written first for her, but Jaal was, and since Cathleen wrote both Jaal and the main plot, she connected them. I actually got Liam's LM last. His took forever even though I had all the outposts earlier, but from scanning a weapon's stand to ending up on a broken ship trying to find his friend, I was lost at how we got from A to C without B. Considering Jaal was never really talked about in the marketing phase for the game, I think everybody assumed Liam was the main love interest for Sara. It was just one of those hidden secrets BioWare was keeping to itself. As far as the main plot, Chris Schlerf wrote the main story for Mass Effect Andromeda. I don't know what role Cathleen may have had, but I figure the only reason Jaal was so tied to the main plot is because he was Angaran. That's interesting. I guess it's entirely dependent on how one approaches the various tasks at hand. I'd have to go through the game again as I don't particularly remember how each loyalty mission is activated. Some just came across as being very long-winded, having you travel all over. She was a lead writer and had to take what he wrote and work with it.
|
|
inherit
3657
0
2,378
Revan Reborn
Pathfinder
2,000
Feb 19, 2017 18:14:40 GMT
February 2017
revanreborn
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Pax_Augusta
Heero the pilot
Pax_Augusta01
|
Post by Revan Reborn on Apr 9, 2017 19:48:32 GMT
Considering Jaal was never really talked about in the marketing phase for the game, I think everybody assumed Liam was the main love interest for Sara. It was just one of those hidden secrets BioWare was keeping to itself. As far as the main plot, Chris Schlerf wrote the main story for Mass Effect Andromeda. I don't know what role Cathleen may have had, but I figure the only reason Jaal was so tied to the main plot is because he was Angaran. That's interesting. I guess it's entirely dependent on how one approaches the various tasks at hand. I'd have to go through the game again as I don't particularly remember how each loyalty mission is activated. Some just came across as being very long-winded, having you travel all over. She was a lead writer and had to take what he wrote and work with it. That makes sense. He left after the main story was essentially done, at least based on his remarks. It's possible Jaal was already heavily tied to the plot, as one or two characters in BioWare games usually are. That being said, it's certainly understandable had Cathleen had a role in making Jaal even more relevant.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
3344
0
Nov 30, 2024 10:50:44 GMT
Deleted
0
Nov 30, 2024 10:50:44 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 19:50:22 GMT
She was a lead writer and had to take what he wrote and work with it. That makes sense. He left after the main story was essentially done, at least based on his remarks. It's possible Jaal was already heavily tied to the plot, as one or two characters in BioWare games usually are. That being said, it's certainly understandable had Cathleen had a role in making Jaal even more relevant. That's what I think. She put everything into writing him according to the other devs, and by the end of the 6 years of work, everyone at BW had fallen for him and the story of the Angara. She's also known for writing plays for women, so she knew how to capture his romance for the females.
|
|
inherit
3657
0
2,378
Revan Reborn
Pathfinder
2,000
Feb 19, 2017 18:14:40 GMT
February 2017
revanreborn
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Pax_Augusta
Heero the pilot
Pax_Augusta01
|
Post by Revan Reborn on Apr 9, 2017 19:56:30 GMT
That makes sense. He left after the main story was essentially done, at least based on his remarks. It's possible Jaal was already heavily tied to the plot, as one or two characters in BioWare games usually are. That being said, it's certainly understandable had Cathleen had a role in making Jaal even more relevant. That's what I think. She put everything into writing him according to the other devs, and by the end of the 6 years of work, everyone at BW had fallen for him and the story of the Angara. She's also known for writing plays for women, so she knew how to capture his romance for the females. All things considered, I think she did a fantastic job. I'm a straight male, so I don't have any kind of attraction towards Jaal. However, I found the Angara, as a people, to be incredibly compelling and interesting. Even though many complain that MEA didn't add as many races to the franchise as previous games did, I'd argue the Angara are by far one of the more unique and interesting races we've seen in a BioWare game. I'm curious to see how they will develop, evolve, and even interact with the Milky Way species as this new chapter in Mass Effect continues.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
1255
0
Nov 30, 2024 10:50:44 GMT
Deleted
0
Nov 30, 2024 10:50:44 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 21:07:28 GMT
That makes sense. He left after the main story was essentially done, at least based on his remarks. It's possible Jaal was already heavily tied to the plot, as one or two characters in BioWare games usually are. That being said, it's certainly understandable had Cathleen had a role in making Jaal even more relevant. That's what I think. She put everything into writing him according to the other devs, and by the end of the 6 years of work, everyone at BW had fallen for him and the story of the Angara. She's also known for writing plays for women, so she knew how to capture his romance for the females. Not all of us. Grr.
|
|