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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 29, 2016 19:18:26 GMT
I know there has been a lot of speculation about the strange prophesy from Sandal in DA2. Initially people thought it might refer to the OGB but now they are looking at Solas. The thing is for a prophesy to be true that means the person having it either is able to travel through time in their mind (a possibility in view of events in DAI) or there is an element of pre-destination in the world. Flemeth occasionally seems to hint at foresight as well.
Then I was re-playing the Gauntlet encounters with the spirits of people in Andraste's life and realised I had forgotten all about this one from Brona's mother:
Echoes from the shadow realms, whispers of things yet to come. Thought's strange sister dwells in night, is swept away by dawning light. Of what do I speak? Answer: Dreams
A dream came upon me as my daughter slept beneath my heart, It told of her life and her betrayal and death. I am sorrow and regret. I am a mother weeping bitter tears for a daughter she could not save.
Does anyone recall if the Devs ever said any more about this prophesy? May be they were just trying to make a stronger parallel between Andraste and Jesus but it does beg the question, if Brona had this dream, did she tell Andraste? Was Andraste's calmness in the face of death because she knew it had all been ordained that way? Yet if it was pre-ordained that she would be betrayed and die, what purpose did it serve? The Maker obviously knew from the beginning that she would not succeed? It has never been mentioned again anyway outside of the Gauntlet, so did the writers decide to quietly drop it?
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Post by dayze on Aug 30, 2016 5:28:44 GMT
There's also that statue in the circle, or person turned to stone more than statue, who seemed to see either Cory or Solas coming about.
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Post by Ieldra on Aug 30, 2016 12:17:26 GMT
Brona had a premonition. This kind of dramatic license happens all the time in religious legends in order to make events appear meaningful. It is usually non-indicative of anything except its purpose, and I am unaware of any information that would suggest otherwise in this case.
Here's a counter-question: were those ghosts really the ghosts of once-living people, or where they apparitions shaped by magic, or artifacts shaped by people's faith and brought to life through the lyrium deposits around? If they *were* real ghosts, wouldn't that be against Andrastian beliefs?
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Post by Iakus on Aug 30, 2016 15:19:17 GMT
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Post by thats1evildude on Aug 30, 2016 19:05:25 GMT
In World of Thedas Volume II, it discusses in the entry for Eleni's Zinovia that, being timeless, spirits can see the future, but don't perceive time the same way we do. The writer of the entry mentions a colleague who consulted with spirits and they warned him about an assassination attempt that occurred five years ago.
It also states that some somniari like Archon Darinius can perceive the future. However, he stated this: "The wise are wary of prophecy: to seek knowledge of the future is to grip a sword by the blade."
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 30, 2016 19:42:28 GMT
I think I recall someone a few years back, may be one of the Devs, saying that they were spirits imprinted with the memories of those people. A bit like when Solas went to Ostagar and saw both viewpoints of Loghain's actions or the spirit of Justinia in the Fade. That wasn't really Justinia. If it was you'd be really worried why she hadn't passed to the Maker's side by the time we got there.
As for ghosts being against Chantry teaching, well neither Cassandra in the Fade, nor Leliana out of it seemed bothered by the idea that it really could be Justinia, in spite of Chantry teaching on the matter. I guess some Chantry stalwarts would freak out at the Gauntlet and others would be moved by faith. Luckily we only had Leliana with us and she had her own unique view of things anyway in those days.
Obviously the only way you know if a vision of the future is genuine is if the person tells you about it and then it happens exactly that way, with you not being able to control the outcome through your knowledge.
There is also a difference between someone like Brona or Sandal who just claim to have seen something in the future, like watching a video, and Drakon would also claimed to have heard the voice of Andraste instructing him to do something. He was specifically be thinking he should be taking action in order to bring that about, since it was a prophesy of the Maker's return. In Brona's case it would seem it was a premonition that she was unable to act on to prevent, which is why she laments her situation.
Incidentally, as I have posted elsewhere, I don't think Drakon's vision was a genuine revelation and thus any actions that he subsequently took as a result were not by Divine decree but simply his own ambition. I don't doubt he believed it was genuine; the mind can play wonderful tricks when you want something enough and in Thedas we also have the problem of spirits playing mind games with people but it sure as hell didn't come from the Maker or Andraste.
That of course is entirely my own faith on the matter and that of my PCs but then I've never believed the Chantry truly represented Andraste and the Maker ever since DAO. Subsequent events and discoveries have only confirmed me in my view. I would very much like the opportunity one of these days to be able to state in game that I believe in the Maker and Andraste but I denounce the Chantry as a fraud.
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Post by Kantr on Aug 31, 2016 13:10:46 GMT
There's the statue in DA:O that told the future.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 31, 2016 13:39:37 GMT
Actually I've been looking again at the entry on Eleni Zinovia and note that it says that few outside of somniari can see the future with any degree of success, which implies that somniari can do this.
However, although the person writing that, from Perivantium in Tevinter, believed that Darinius was one such somniari who could see the future, elsewhere in his entry it states that actually this was because of his effective network of animal and bird spies, who were able to give him information that enabled him to out move his rivals in such a way that people thought he could predict the future. Naturally Darinius wouldn't have wanted to disabuse them of this idea because it would add to the awe in which he was held, but in fact his powers of prediction had a wholly mundane explanation.
So it is not clear whether people are actually able to predict the future or whether it is just the superstitious belief of others than they can do so. In fact they are either using spies, as Darinius did, or possibly spirits from the Fade to assist them. Zinovia definitely seems to have got her premonitions from dreams, so likely Fade spirits.
If it is just a general dream, this seems fair enough, but when a person declares this is a Divine revelation that approves or encourages their action in some way, then I become very wary. In Drakon's case we will only know if it was correct if the world does end in the way he describes. Otherwise we only have his word for it that it was genuinely a vision from the Maker/Andraste.
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Post by dayze on Aug 31, 2016 16:56:21 GMT
That could apply to the statue as well; it's prophesy could just be boiled down to "Cory is trying to escape and the blight comes with him" or perhaps a reference that Solas is starting to get up to something.
But either way; neither of those needs to be directly a reference to the future so much as that they are trying to do that "now" and no one is around that seems to be able to stop them. Especially factor in the vagueness/non-informative angle of it.
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