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Post by ticktak77 on Apr 10, 2017 15:12:56 GMT
Which is why Andromeda has a grand total of 2 trans people - That you know of. Seriously, literally every character could be trans and...how would anyone know any different? *shrug* Because it's Bioware. If a character isn't, at some point, explicitly telling you that they are gay or trans, then they are assumed to be straight. What do you think the controversy surrounding Hainly was? And, from a logical perspective, the cost of hormonal therapy & the difficulties / impossibilities of reproducing, means that trans people would be extremely rare in a mission whose eventually priority will be reproduction & expansion of the population
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Post by Pyrceval78 on Apr 10, 2017 15:16:18 GMT
That you know of. Seriously, literally every character could be trans and...how would anyone know any different? *shrug* Because it's Bioware. If a character isn't, at some point, explicitly telling you that they are gay or trans, then they are assumed to be straight. What do you think the controversy surrounding Hainly was? And, from a logical perspective, the cost of hormonal therapy & the difficulties / impossibilities of reproducing, means that trans people would be extremely rare in a mission whose eventually priority will be reproduction & expansion of the population Space magic. By then, people can fully transition with all the bells and whistles.
And yes, I am just being an ass and playing debils advocate with logic.
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Post by SaikyoMcRyu on Apr 10, 2017 15:33:43 GMT
Are there any overweight people in Andromeda? Because I don't remember Yeah you haven't been between my Ryder and a box of donuts.
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Post by leo3abp on Apr 10, 2017 15:49:31 GMT
Krogan fit into cryopod, so overweight is not a problem. Also do not confuse that overweight = 150-200-250-300+ kg of a person. I am almost 1.90 meters tall and couple kg's above 100, and consider myself "overweight". Just to give you a perspective and make you understand that overweight =/= someone that cant fit into bathtube. That would make you overweight. I don't have the index in front of me, but that would also probably make you categorized as obese. That doesn't mean you can't fit in a bathtub. It does mean you are susceptible to higher risks of heart, lung, and other health issues - which means you would not be a candidate for this hypothetical Andromeda Initiative. It's also why there are no obese / overweight people in Andromeda. Which is why Andromeda has a grand total of 2 trans people - and given the changes they made in the patch, it's crystal clear that even their inclusion in the game was due to inclusion, not because of narrative. Trans and gay people would not be good candidate for a mission like this. Your info about "a little bit overweight=lots of health issue" might be a little bit out of date bud. Go and read of latest studies showing completely opposite results and that fat can actually be beneficial for longevity and better health long term. Google is your friend. Great example of superstitions about fat though... Also as it was mentioned previously multiple times - if overweight people were deemed unhealthy, then how the hell did transgenders made it into the Initiative? Apart from their mental health concerns, those people need a lifetime supply of hormones that they can-not naturally produce at the very least, not to mention other health issues related to gender change. So sorry, but that's just illogical to say that a mildly overweight person is unfit for journey, while some post-op trans is. In the end you admit yourself that trans and gays are very poor candidates for mission like this, so they were included for the sake of inclusion. So that begs the question - how exactly are they better so that they get a free ride for the sake of inclusion, while BW couldn't be bothered including at least a single overweight character in game??? And don't say me about modeling, animation, and budget - BW games from 10 years ago on a much lower budged had fat people while also managing to virtually do everything better quality-wise, especially for its own time, than Andromeda does. It is nonsensical to assume that BW was unable to put a fat guy behind a counter somewhere, with minimal animations and model work, if they wanted to show some inclusion to overweight people. But they didn't simply because they don't care and just show a finger to overweight players, instead they chose to ponder to other demographics to an extent of writing formal apologies for some minor dialogue. Seriously, nowadays BW makes me sick. Unless BW show some sense and make a formal apology to overweight people for not being in the game, and then add some in patch, they can consider yet another paying customer to be lost to them. Because if you step on a forced inclusion and representation path as one of major agendas of your porduct - then you need to make sure that all representation and inclusion is equal. Otherwise it is just bigotry in a form of double standards, and I as well as many others are not going to support it. P.S: as for my height to weight ratio - you can throw you BMI index tablets into trash where they belong, considering how they not include bone and muscle mass % of a total weight into the equation.
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Post by KLGChaos on Apr 10, 2017 15:50:36 GMT
You see, they were put on a special reinforced ark, with everything they ever needed, that went adrift in space when it's SAM went insane, which was eventually found by Wall-E and they instead decided to return to the ravaged earth and rebuild.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Apr 10, 2017 15:56:56 GMT
Obese people probably didn't pass the health requirements for the Andromeda initiative. It makes sense to take only the best of the best for such massive and expensive undertaking.
Ask yourself, would you accept obese, chronically ill or mentally impaired people for such mission or would you stick to healthy, fit and mentally sound people? There is absolutely no reason NOT to do the latter.
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Post by leo3abp on Apr 10, 2017 16:00:43 GMT
Obese people probably didn't pass the health requirements for the Andromeda initiative. It makes sense to take only the best of the best for such massive and expensive undertaking. Ask yourself, would you accept obese, chronically ill or mentally impaired people for such mission or would you stick to healthy, fit and mentally sound people? There is absolutely no reason NOT to do the latter. Then how would you explain transgender people ending up in Andromeda?
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Post by Jacket on Apr 10, 2017 16:03:54 GMT
Probably because unfit fat people wouldn't survive for long out in the Andromeda.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Apr 10, 2017 16:09:37 GMT
Then how would you explain transgender people ending up in Andromeda? Maybe in the year 22XX being transgender does no longer require permanent medical attention anymore? Now the question if transgenderism is a mental issue or not is a sensitive topic which I do not want to discuss here. (or anywhere for that matter) In any way, I think diabetes, skeletal issues, heart problems and all the other nasty stuff that comes with obesity is a much greater problem. With the limited medical supply the AI couldn't deal with those kind of problems. Simply choose physically and mentally fit people for the initiative.
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Post by suboof on Apr 10, 2017 16:10:06 GMT
Important 600+ year trip to colonize a new Galaxy.
Lets send overweight people who are out of shape....yeah not going to happen. They don't even do that today in Nasa.
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Post by ticktak77 on Apr 10, 2017 16:23:10 GMT
Because it's Bioware. If a character isn't, at some point, explicitly telling you that they are gay or trans, then they are assumed to be straight. What do you think the controversy surrounding Hainly was? And, from a logical perspective, the cost of hormonal therapy & the difficulties / impossibilities of reproducing, means that trans people would be extremely rare in a mission whose eventually priority will be reproduction & expansion of the population Space magic. By then, people can fully transition with all the bells and whistles.
And yes, I am just being an ass and playing debils advocate with logic.
Space magic isn't logic
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Pyrceval78
N3
Burninating the thatched roof cottages.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Pyrceval78 on Apr 10, 2017 16:25:34 GMT
Space magic. By then, people can fully transition with all the bells and whistles.
And yes, I am just being an ass and playing debils advocate with logic.
Space magic isn't logic It is to Bioware!
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Post by TaliWhacker on Apr 10, 2017 16:27:20 GMT
The Initiative didn't want to bring any overweight people because their Cool-Downs would have been too long.
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Post by ticktak77 on Apr 10, 2017 16:28:10 GMT
That would make you overweight. I don't have the index in front of me, but that would also probably make you categorized as obese. That doesn't mean you can't fit in a bathtub. It does mean you are susceptible to higher risks of heart, lung, and other health issues - which means you would not be a candidate for this hypothetical Andromeda Initiative. It's also why there are no obese / overweight people in Andromeda. Which is why Andromeda has a grand total of 2 trans people - and given the changes they made in the patch, it's crystal clear that even their inclusion in the game was due to inclusion, not because of narrative. Trans and gay people would not be good candidate for a mission like this. Also as it was mentioned previously multiple times - if overweight people were deemed unhealthy, then how the hell did transgenders made it into the Initiative? Apart from their mental health concerns, those people need a lifetime supply of hormones that they can-not naturally produce at the very least, not to mention other health issues related to gender change. So sorry, but that's just illogical to say that a mildly overweight person is unfit for journey, while some post-op trans is. Which is why I said they were only included for the sake of inclusion. Not because it was logical. It doesn't seem logical to me to bring overweight people with elevated risks, on a journey like this. Nor does it seem logical to bring trans people. They included one in the game for the sake of inclusion. They didn't include the other. They wanted fit, healthy people there. Two trans people, can still be generally healthy people. Overweight / Obese? Not so much.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 10, 2017 16:48:01 GMT
Also as it was mentioned previously multiple times - if overweight people were deemed unhealthy, then how the hell did transgenders made it into the Initiative? Apart from their mental health concerns, those people need a lifetime supply of hormones that they can-not naturally produce at the very least, not to mention other health issues related to gender change. So sorry, but that's just illogical to say that a mildly overweight person is unfit for journey, while some post-op trans is. Which is why I said they were only included for the sake of inclusion. Not because it was logical. It doesn't seem logical to me to bring overweight people with elevated risks, on a journey like this. Nor does it seem logical to bring trans people. The cost of the hormones is doing all the work in this argument. Are we sure that isn't trivial with MEU manufacturing tech?
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Post by decafhigh on Apr 10, 2017 16:55:48 GMT
Logic this and making sense that, is all kinda out the window in a setting with Space Magic, inconceivable FTL travel, and English speaking aliens from another galaxy.
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Post by leo3abp on Apr 10, 2017 17:03:26 GMT
Then how would you explain transgender people ending up in Andromeda? Maybe in the year 22XX being transgender does no longer require permanent medical attention anymore? Now the question if transgenderism is a mental issue or not is a sensitive topic which I do not want to discuss here. (or anywhere for that matter) In any way, I think diabetes, skeletal issues, heart problems and all the other nasty stuff that comes with obesity is a much greater problem. With the limited medical supply the AI couldn't deal with those kind of problems. Simply choose physically and mentally fit people for the initiative. If you going to use "MEU medical advancement" argument, then don't exclude from it the possibility that in the year 22XX diabetes, skeletal issues, heart problems and so on will not be an issue either. It seems lopsided that people use "medical advancement" argument to advocate for one side, but completely excluding another. The point is - lets just considern the facts we know and not make them up as we go. Otherwise pretty much any nonsense could be justified with "I think in the year 22xx they could have...". So again, your argument is not withstanding - with limited medical supply transgenders will surely have ended up at the bottom of the list of people fit for this mission, and almost certainly on a lower line than mildly overweight ones. Because health-wise former have more health-associated problems than the latter.
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Post by leo3abp on Apr 10, 2017 17:13:27 GMT
Also as it was mentioned previously multiple times - if overweight people were deemed unhealthy, then how the hell did transgenders made it into the Initiative? Apart from their mental health concerns, those people need a lifetime supply of hormones that they can-not naturally produce at the very least, not to mention other health issues related to gender change. So sorry, but that's just illogical to say that a mildly overweight person is unfit for journey, while some post-op trans is. Which is why I said they were only included for the sake of inclusion. Not because it was logical. It doesn't seem logical to me to bring overweight people with elevated risks, on a journey like this. Nor does it seem logical to bring trans people. They included one in the game for the sake of inclusion. They didn't include the other. They wanted fit, healthy people there. Two trans people, can still be generally healthy people. Overweight / Obese? Not so much. Clearly you have little understanding in the subject of the matter you talk about, otherwise you would not have said that. Being a transgender is not simply announcing to a world that you are of opposite sex now and cutting off or slapping on a penis. It is a complex procedure that requires lifetime of sustaining and comes with a lot of health risks, as well as potential and actual health issues. So unless we talk about extreme obesity, mildly overweight people make actually healthier candidates than transgenders. Now, the topic is not about whether transgenders or overweight people possibly could or could not go to Andromeda. We talk about representation and inclusion of certain groups of people over the others, even though there is no problem including both, not to mention going for great lengths to pander to one group while completely ignoring the other. This is nothing but bigotry of double standards.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Apr 10, 2017 17:14:18 GMT
So again, your argument is not withstanding - with limited medical supply transgenders will surely have ended up at the bottom of the list of people fit for this mission, and almost certainly on a lower line than mildly overweight ones. Because health-wise former have more health-associated problems than the latter. Dude, transgenders only need mild hormonal therapy, obese people need treatments against skeletal issues, diabetes, cardiovascular issues and last but not least they're also less efficient in every physical task. Over time the health condition of obese people deteriorates and can lead to conditions that forbids them to do any kind work and they end up as dead weight. Thats not good for something like a Andromeda Initiative. If transgenders don't get their hormonal therapy, well, tough luck, they're not going to become much of a problem. Apples and oranges. But I agree with that its mildly unwise to choose transgeder people to become part of the AI, just as fat people and people with disabilities. Then again, the people responsible for the Andromeda Initiative failed to arm the NOMAD, they didn't arm the Tempest, they did not bring fighter crafts nor did they make any defense plans for the case of encountering hostile intelligent lifeforms. The people responsible for the AI weren't the brightest heads.
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Post by leo3abp on Apr 10, 2017 17:21:03 GMT
So again, your argument is not withstanding - with limited medical supply transgenders will surely have ended up at the bottom of the list of people fit for this mission, and almost certainly on a lower line than mildly overweight ones. Because health-wise former have more health-associated problems than the latter. Dude, transgenders only need mild hormonal therapy, obese people need treatments against skeletal issues, diabetes, cardiovascular issues and last but not least they're also less efficient in every physical task. Over time the health condition of obese people deteriorates and can lead to conditions that forbids them to do any kind work and they end up as dead weight. Thats not good for something like a Andromeda Initiative. If transgenders don't get their hormonal therapy, well, tough luck, they're not going to become much of a problem. Apples and oranges. Dude, read what happens with transgender when they suddenly stop getting their hormone therapy, because what you say now is nothing but complete bs. And hormones are not the only issue. The way you put it with constantly listing numerous health issues, some of which are not directly tied to overweight while saying that transgenders need "only need mild hormone therapy" and "not going to become much of a problem" clearly showing how biased and/or unaware of the subject of discussion you are. Sorry, but I wish no longer to waste my time on arguing with a complete and utter bs like that. Go educate yourself on transgender and health issues and risks they face, before writing complete nonsense here.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2017 17:29:46 GMT
Logic this and making sense that, is all kinda out the window in a setting with Space Magic, inconceivable FTL travel, and English speaking aliens from another galaxy. Yep, and what one thinks should or should not be usually boils down to "what's in it for me".
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Post by decafhigh on Apr 10, 2017 17:35:26 GMT
Logic this and making sense that, is all kinda out the window in a setting with Space Magic, inconceivable FTL travel, and English speaking aliens from another galaxy. Yep, and what one thinks should or should not be usually boils down to "what's in it for me". Pretty much. And just to make it clear, since far too many people are starting to actually take this thread seriously, I don't care about ME having overweight people in it. The obvious answer is it would be a time/money issue for the devs creating additional body types. It was just an opportunity to point out the ridiculousness of BW trying to make all the female faces ugly but then putting them on super hot fitness model bodies.
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Post by linksocarina on Apr 10, 2017 17:36:31 GMT
They all lost weight. Surviving is tough business man!
In all seriousness...who the fuck cares? The real reason is the lack of a gameplay model, probably to save time. Maybe in the future they can add it on a slider for some models, but this has been a thing in a lot of BioWare games...where they just have the one-two models per person and mix and match the faces.
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Post by Pyrceval78 on Apr 10, 2017 17:37:20 GMT
Yep, and what one thinks should or should not be usually boils down to "what's in it for me". Pretty much. And just to make it clear, since far too many people are starting to actually take this thread seriously, I don't care about ME having overweight people in it. The obvious answer is it would be a time/money issue for the devs creating additional body types. It was just an opportunity to point out the ridiculousness of BW trying to make all the female faces ugly but then putting them on super hot fitness model bodies. Stop ruining the fun...
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Post by decafhigh on Apr 10, 2017 17:40:21 GMT
Pretty much. And just to make it clear, since far too many people are starting to actually take this thread seriously, I don't care about ME having overweight people in it. The obvious answer is it would be a time/money issue for the devs creating additional body types. It was just an opportunity to point out the ridiculousness of BW trying to make all the female faces ugly but then putting them on super hot fitness model bodies. Stop ruining the fun...
Hehe, it was fun for a while. Surprised it lasted this many pages. Once people stop getting the joke though and start for real trying to argue why fat people shouldn't be in Andromeda it just becomes sad.
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