SwobyJ
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Post by SwobyJ on Apr 7, 2017 21:07:00 GMT
Why not a plot like Milky Way somehow obtained Reaper tech after ME3 ending; (Destroy: salvage and R&D, Control: hunted the Reapers Down after a hundred years, Synthesize: Directly got all Reaper Tech). After 600 Years, they are now advance enough to create wormhole relays and travel between galaxies. The Reaper war united MW and they are now ruled by a Space Marine Emperor like character who is set to conquer Andromeda. So, they left the MW 600 years later than the initiative but arrive just years after. Will Ryder and friends side with their invading kin or will they defend their new home Andromeda? Destroy - Salvage Reaper tech, advances but gets unstable, you get sense they advanced the relatively least but averted bigger dangers Control - Reapers around, gets destabilized, you get sense they advanced more but eventually experienced some bigger dangers Synthesis - Ascended galaxy, advances the most, some story factor collapses them, you get sense they advanced the most but experienced the biggest dangers that exploited them when reaching beyond Refuse (if part of canon) - Does not advance, but the harvest occurs in a way that isn't as straightforward as we'd assume, resulting in something close enough to work with the other results (Reapers, MWers present); story is set up that a 'harvest' will still 'happen' far in the 'future' by 'Reapers' but the nature of it will be again rather different than we'd straightforwardly assume (*insert complicated lore*) All - Galaxy is wrecked centuries in future and Reaper-ish stuff around (possibly mostly renamed), everyone alive is still organic, but of a techy nature like we're already being set up like Angarans, and they managed all sorts of progress in their own ways that provide some insight on broader concepts. Shepard: Normal - Ending more or less happened as we saw it, there was Crucible effects and our experience was mostly reflective of 'reality' Indoctrination - Shepard was in a mind twist in the ending of ME3 and whatever we saw, at least as him, wasn't always entirely reflective of what was 'actually' happening; he's still resistant though and never fully succumbed to anything - game was always some victory but we're always lacking some level of detail and context that future story can reveal or elaborate More - The things we learn in MEA+ explain how interfacing with synthetic entities isn't exactly the same as what some guy (Saren) and previous terrified and reaped cycles called/considered 'indoctrination'. MEA: We eventually go back to the Milky Way due to a disconcerting silence from it, it probably had its good times (which flashbacks and timey wimey and character accounts and side stories may very well reflect), but is now in a bad time, and we are unsure whether to consider them allies or enemies, same with considering the more alien folks from the Andromeda galaxy. In the end, a basic 'kill from giant robots' story becomes something of more complex politics as organics try to manage evolving without becoming their own (past/present) enemies themselves. Destroying things always happens, its a damn shooter, its gonna happen and follow a story of might makes right, of us destroying things and them destroying many of us (or if the series get daring, in some sense managing to destroy us but the story continues). Controlling things is always a potential, there's always controllers and we always learn how much we can control. Synthesizing things is inevitable but like the other ME3 endings, it doesn't have to happen in this form, and we can learn how other parts of the cosmos dealt with such a concept that the Reapers found impossible to fit their desired solution. I do think Mac loves Synthesis, but I don't think its for the reason many people assume or at least lean towards. I think he is just posthumanist and injected that in since at least ME2, and this doesn't mean its good or bad, but simply a considered very likely destiny for our species if given enough time (decades, centuries, more) to develop technology. So it isn't that 'Synthesis is good', but more a mix of 'Synthesis is best result ending' and 'Synthesis concept is inevitable'. The *action* of Synthesis, however, is actually not painted to me as the right/correct decision, even if its one we can take. It has a highly eerie tone and plenty of warnings against anything like it. I don't think a post-Synthesis galaxy is just fantastic and utopian, and I don't think ME3 intended that. It is simply a vision of the future (not an EXACTLY ACCURATE one), and what provides the most immediately positive results for the galaxy (but provides a FREAKY feeling at the same time). There's nothing in the narrative given to make it fact that it must continue on like that, and so far, I can easily imagine it collapsing because its such a new thing that no one knows that to do with it even while considering themselves synthetically enlightened. It may have been a minority of players, but Genophage Full Cure had a few players freaked out about this being a fake-out and enabling the Krogan to be a bigger threat than ever (even if handled nicely in many ways by themselves and others), and many players freaked out about Rannoch Peace, especially with the already side-hint of Geth integrating into Quarian suits whilst we have a warning from an optional character (Javik) about how such a thing could be highly exploited. Nothing necessitates a millennia-long super golden age for either Krogan or Quarians no matter what we do - we just provide the dream, the new possibilities. Not the tangible results. Shepard is only good for that in destroying things, that's his story.I put it this way - if I want the nicest result for everyone by a Shepard who in ME3 has undertaken a sense of having to be a space messiah (which is believable enough if they either suffered a ton or suffered the least possible; for different reasons), I'll go with Synthesis. If anything else, I see plenty of valid reasons to go for the others. Control for theoretical knowledge and accepting new information and Destroy for practical knowledge and common information (and against the Reapers, that's the 'right choice', but I don't need to RP this as the story for my Shepard).
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Post by Iakus on Apr 7, 2017 21:27:50 GMT
I've been around since BioBoards. I assume you have as well so I'm sure you remember the petulant whining that went on nonstop for months after ME2 came out. Petulant whining? No. Particularly not about combat not being based on dice rolls, llike you claimed I do recall complaints that ME2's story was paper thin A railroaded plot Lack of companion interaction. ME1 being largely jettisoned (and an oddly hostile VS) Inventory being essentially gone Blatant lore changes and violations Silly and impractical outfits for the companions Even sillier butt shots, especially for Miranda. Perhaps you can enlighten me?
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Post by decafhigh on Apr 7, 2017 21:30:13 GMT
Mr. Walters is a hack. Unless they replace him with a real writer ME is doomed. The hate on Mac Walters was already old 7 years ago. He wrote a lot of the very best stuff in the series. It basically goes back to the entitled RPG 'purists' angry that there weren't dice rolls to decide ME2's combat. Actually I loved the combat in ME2, but that isn't what I play BW games for. ME2's complete absence of a cohesive plot and characters presenting nothing more than several different flavors of 'daddy issues' for you to solve making up the bulk of the game is the reason I would consider him a hack.
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Post by blastoandbubin on Apr 7, 2017 22:01:56 GMT
Going back to the Milky Way might be interesting since it's going to be at least 1200 years post-trilogy, but...it also defeats the entire purpose of moving the series to Andromeda, so I really don't get the point tbh.
I really, really hope they don't pull a DA with Mass Effect and start with the obnoxious protagonist switching for every game. I like Dragon Age but that approach leaves me feeling rather cold towards my pcs and the companions. I like them, of course, but for me, I just don't have the incentive to grow attached the way we did with Mass Effect, knowing they're mostly just going to either fuck off into the sunset or have one terrible cameo that will inevitably be bugged or ooc or completely contradict the way I played them in the last game. And bringing back fan fave bff-types to be companions or advisors for a second round without their buddy (i.e. the old pc) there is just oddly depressing, lol. I'm already dreading Dorian being the Varric 2.0 of DA4.
I like the idea of doing a Witcher-style or Uncharted approach. Let us retain most of the original cast and our Ryders, but make each game it's own relatively self-contained adventure that wraps up on it's own, with a larger mystery about the remnant or various spoilery things tying them loosely together. It's a brand new galaxy, there's tons of stuff for Ryder to get up to, especially since they're so young and at the start of their career. Some stuff can be transferred forward through the games, like romances and mentions of a few prior decisions, but it doesn't have to be an epic, drawn-out saga.
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Post by admiralbonetopickmk2 on Apr 7, 2017 22:04:45 GMT
I feel like Drew Karpyshyn still understood this and you can see it in ME1. Every amin character is a reflection that fits into the story. For example, Garrus is the more positive refelction of the villain, Saren while Ahsley is a fit for the stories aspect about humanity trying to cope with it's recent introduction into an alien galactic community, etc. There was always a back and forth, a symbiosis if you will between the characters and the story. Ah, all the lost potential. Any way I can throw myself into a parallel universe where Drew never left the ME franchise? I feel that way about Chris L'Etoile. Imo he wrote the best stuff in the Mass Effect franchise. He was involved in the best sci-fi bits of the series. I liked the depth, the nuance and the slow, serious, cerebral style he brought. How serious he took the setting & lore etc.. he's the writer who made Mass Effect to me. Sadly i feel like Bioware dont have that same high quality calibre of writer any more. Mac Walters he doesnt get close to that, he's a decent character writer but nothing more. I'd hope for the next game they actually hire some quality science fiction writers/writers generally. As Mac Walters leaves a lot to be desires, it seems like everything he touches turns to shit eventually, like he just cant help himself or something.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 7, 2017 22:05:52 GMT
The hate on Mac Walters was already old 7 years ago. He wrote a lot of the very best stuff in the series. It basically goes back to the entitled RPG 'purists' angry that there weren't dice rolls to decide ME2's combat. Actually I loved the combat in ME2, but that isn't what I play BW games for. ME2's complete absence of a cohesive plot and characters presenting nothing more than several different flavors of 'daddy issues' for you to solve making up the bulk of the game is the reason I would consider him a hack. ME2 had great characters. A pity they were given almost nothing to do.
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Post by decafhigh on Apr 7, 2017 22:08:29 GMT
Actually I loved the combat in ME2, but that isn't what I play BW games for. ME2's complete absence of a cohesive plot and characters presenting nothing more than several different flavors of 'daddy issues' for you to solve making up the bulk of the game is the reason I would consider him a hack. ME2 had great characters. A pity they were given almost nothing to do. I liked Mordin, Grunt, and Zaeed. Jack grew on me after a while. The rest I could have done without.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 7, 2017 22:08:39 GMT
Going back to the Milky Way might be interesting since it's going to be at least 1200 years post-trilogy, but...it also defeats the entire purpose of moving the series to Andromeda, so I really don't get the point tbh. I really, really hope they don't pull a DA with Mass Effect and start with the obnoxious protagonist switching for every game. I like Dragon Age but that approach leaves me feeling rather cold towards my pcs and the companions. I like them, of course, but for me, I just don't have the incentive to grow attached the way we did with Mass Effect, knowing they're mostly just going to either fuck off into the sunset or have one terrible cameo that will inevitably be bugged or ooc or completely contradict the way I played them in the last game. And bringing back fan fave bff-types to be companions or advisors for a second round without their buddy (i.e. the old pc) there is just oddly depressing, lol. I'm already dreading Dorian being the Varric 2.0 of DA4. I like the idea of doing a Witcher-style or Uncharted approach. Let us retain most of the original cast and our Ryders, but make each game it's own relatively self-contained adventure that wraps up on it's own, with a larger mystery about the remnant or various spoilery things tying them loosely together. It's a brand new galaxy, there's tons of stuff for Ryder to get up to, especially since they're so young and at the start of their career. Some stuff can be transferred forward through the games, like romances and mentions of a few prior decisions, but it doesn't have to be an epic, drawn-out saga. I'd rather our characters get retired at the end of a game than watch them get used up and cast aside by Mac like Shepard was.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 7, 2017 22:12:49 GMT
ME2 had great characters. A pity they were given almost nothing to do. I liked Mordin, Grunt, and Zaeed. Jack grew on me after a while. The rest I could have done without. The thing is, though, aside form their loyalty missions, what do they really do in the game that makes them stand out? Aside from the VERY occasional comment, they don'[t say or do anything. They don't even speak to each other. It's a big part of what made the Citadel DLC so popular, I think. We finally had these people all in a room together, acknowledging each other's presence!
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Post by Arcian on Apr 7, 2017 22:17:53 GMT
Translation: Who knows? By then, maybe I will be ready to go back to the Milky Way and deal with the disaster I created with Casey.
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Post by General Mahad on Apr 7, 2017 22:19:58 GMT
Good, the Ryder twins are the worst BioWare protagonists conceived.
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Post by flyingovertrout on Apr 7, 2017 22:31:37 GMT
Just because a specific writer sat down and actually wrote a character or scene or mission, doesn't mean they were the sole person responsible for the content. It always amuses me when people namedrop a BW writer as though they're talking about a novel or movie. These things are much more like TV shows, where the writers all go back and forth collaboratively on every thing before someone's assigned to actually write the words. The credit or blame never goes to any one person.
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Post by Bann Duncan on Apr 7, 2017 23:33:05 GMT
Of course you can continue with what we have, I just think its better to move on so as not too handicap the writers. I think a 100-150 year gap would good. Enough for the population to multiply and grow to support cities. Enough time to justify having explored larger chunks of galaxy to have met different aliens. Enough time so new conflicts and tension have developed from the consequences of the first game. If you want to hop centuries with every installment, Mass Effect is not for you. You'd probably enjoy Paradox's games, however.
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Post by jackdaniel on Apr 7, 2017 23:40:39 GMT
Of course you can continue with what we have, I just think its better to move on so as not too handicap the writers. I think a 100-150 year gap would good. Enough for the population to multiply and grow to support cities. Enough time to justify having explored larger chunks of galaxy to have met different aliens. Enough time so new conflicts and tension have developed from the consequences of the first game. If you want to hop centuries with every installment, Mass Effect is not for you. You'd probably enjoy Paradox's games, however. I do. I mostly kill time between major AAA releases with CK2
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Post by leadintea on Apr 7, 2017 23:43:56 GMT
Just because a specific writer sat down and actually wrote a character or scene or mission, doesn't mean they were the sole person responsible for the content. It always amuses me when people namedrop a BW writer as though they're talking about a novel or movie. These things are much more like TV shows, where the writers all go back and forth collaboratively on every thing before someone's assigned to actually write the words. The credit or blame never goes to any one person. Yup. Funnily enough, Extra Credits just talked about this topic today:
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 8, 2017 0:05:30 GMT
Just because a specific writer sat down and actually wrote a character or scene or mission, doesn't mean they were the sole person responsible for the content. It always amuses me when people namedrop a BW writer as though they're talking about a novel or movie. These things are much more like TV shows, where the writers all go back and forth collaboratively on every thing before someone's assigned to actually write the words. The credit or blame never goes to any one person. When we're talking about ME3's ending it's still specifically Mac's words that made it into the script and then Casey's cut but every spoken word by the Catalyst (the thing that destroys the story) is Mac's writing, so while you generally need to think about how the unsaid things such as the visual depiction of Synthesis or the "transforming" Citadel structure near the ending are presented you can account Mac specifically for the ending when it comes to the writing. There are of course external factors such as when the deadline was and the fact that nobody reviewed it besides Casey and the non-narrative Leads. (and even none of them felt it needed a last-minute revision?) Just don't be apologetic about it when it's this criminally bad. Mac was Lead Writer. He should've done much better and that's an understatement. Perhaps if the ending to ME3 was the only weak point I could second guess my own opinion but I know the introduction which he also primarily wrote sucked even WITH peer review, Mars made me groan too because of the asinine way he introduces the Crucible and I've read the Foundation comics (or 5 of them) which he penned directly and there's a WORLD of difference between the comics that he drafted the story for but which John Jackson Miller wrote and the ones Mac conceptualized and wrote himself and the prose matches up with the kind of thing you'll see whenever Aria talks or Anderson and Shepard talk during ME3's intro and ending missions. Lay it to rest already: Mac is simply a bad writer. He did decently when directing the story for John Jackson Miller though and he did fine sometimes regarding the story in ME3 directing the rest of the staff and most of what he says in this interview sounds somewhat sensible too and you can tell he knows how stories work... but as a writer he can't stand a candle to anything of professional calibre and that's what I insist on. He's a hack writer unless he's allowed to do smaller, isolated stories.
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Post by zipzap2000 on Apr 8, 2017 0:07:52 GMT
If they're going down the DA route then I'm out. Whilst I enjoyed the original DA, none of the others have even remotely come close to ME. Yep. I'm in no rush to start new stories in the same setting. Mac Walters is proving to be vastly inferior to Casey Hudson. The franchise will fizzle out slowly after they do this.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 8, 2017 0:11:31 GMT
That goes without saying. Unless they change up certain things after this game the only route it's going with the momentum this game's plot has is down the drain because the faucet is not turned up enough.
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Post by lezio on Apr 8, 2017 0:15:14 GMT
I'd hate it if they didn't have Ryder anymore in a sequel. I've yet to fisnish the game, but for now i get a very distinct, intentional or not, "Origin" story from Andromeda. Maybe because of how i made my character progress, but it really feels like the whole game is about the making of Ryder and how he became a N7 rate badass. I want to see how the story continues
Also, if i'm being honest, for the most part ME1's main cast (good guys) wasn't that much more charismatic than Andromeda's, they mostly grew to freaking legends tier in ME2 (like, Garrus, Tali, Liara, Wrex, if i compare them to their ME1's counterparts it's day and night, they're that much better). And, at least for me, it's ME2 that also made them that much more interesting in ME1. I'd like to see Andromeda's cast grow too, and become better than what they are
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Post by zipzap2000 on Apr 8, 2017 0:17:56 GMT
I'd hate it if they didn't have Ryder anymore in a sequel. I've yet to fisnish the game, but for now i get a very distinct, intentional or not, "Origin" story from Andromeda. Maybe because of how i made my character progress, but it really feels like the whole game is about the making of Ryder and how he became a N7 rate badass. I want to see how the story continues We saw how that worked for Hawke and the Inquisitor didnt we? Build them up to point theyre semi likable and then dump them just as they begin to develop as characters. Its classic Dragon Age.
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Post by zipzap2000 on Apr 8, 2017 0:20:29 GMT
Translation: Who knows? By then, maybe I will be ready to go back to the Milky Way and deal with the disaster I created with Casey. After Andromeda I'm convinced Casey had a good idea somewhere and fucked up by letting Mac write it.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 8, 2017 0:23:06 GMT
I think Hawke was intended to be the Inquisitor but due to DA2's unpopularity they scrapped that and gave him a different role to a new protagonist in DA:I.
There's also the factor that David Gaider always intended DA to have a 5-game-plan where the main character was "the setting". The entire point, and you'll see that throughout foreshadowing in DA:O and 2 and developments in DA:I, is that the setting itself will develop over the course of the saga and we're already on the point of no return after Trespasser DLC.
Mass Effect Andromeda might not be designed to be that way. They could technically time-skip in Andromeda 2 to say "...and then years later humanity's capital city was built on the sprawling Habitat-7 planet" in fact, I think they will do that considering the amount of times you finish a planet-quest and Ryder says "Just imagine how this will change in a few years!".
I just hope we still get to play as Ryder but I'm okay with it if they scrap him too. I think the biggest factor is honestly game-design. If they decide, like with ME3, that the dialogue system should be different they now have a genuine excuse to actually recreate the hero and not make it jarring that they're suddenly inconsistent to their former selves.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: Innateagle
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by lezio on Apr 8, 2017 0:27:23 GMT
I'd hate it if they didn't have Ryder anymore in a sequel. I've yet to fisnish the game, but for now i get a very distinct, intentional or not, "Origin" story from Andromeda. Maybe because of how i made my character progress, but it really feels like the whole game is about the making of Ryder and how he became a N7 rate badass. I want to see how the story continues We saw how that worked for Hawke and the Inquisitor didnt we? Build them up to point theyre semi likable and then dump them just as they begin to develop as characters. Its classic Dragon Age. Inquisitor, likable? Became interesting for me in Trespasser, when the Mary-Sue thing was finally dropped Hawke i always liked, tho Damn, i so want the Warden back D: Let's hope they don't go the same route with Ryder
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 8, 2017 0:29:52 GMT
Translation: Who knows? By then, maybe I will be ready to go back to the Milky Way and deal with the disaster I created with Casey. After Andromeda I'm convinced Casey had a good idea somewhere and fucked up by letting Mac write it. It's kinda 50/50. Casey probably did not like the idea that we'd just activate the Deus Ex Machina machine and then the story would abruplty end as all Reapers were blown to bits and hell, even I didn't want that to happen AS I was playing ME3 becuase I found it dumbed down. He said in interviews he didn't want the ending to be forgettable but I think this line of thought got to his head because Mac's plan to simply activate the Crucible and kill all Reapers via the combined effort of the galaxy working together while simple perfectly encapsulates what the entire trilogy was about at large. Casey was very egotistical but I think he got too hung up on the idea that before his trilogy ended it needed to "become an artistic achievement" and then they started going crazy with the overdone symbolism (shepard rises to heaven on space-elevator and meets the godchild... (hint hint: Shepard is Jesus, remember?)) and then it all just got worse from there. He wanted there to be some high-falutin statement that revealed the truth of the story but he misunderstood what it was and Mac did not know how to turn that mistake into something sensible or he just did not pick up on the discrepancy of how "Organics vs Synthetics" did not line up with what the story was. Mac's idea for the Catalyst plot was just as plain as the Reaper on Rannoch describes it and like the Catalyst described it in the original ending however. He thought "Oh, okay, something with Organics and Synthetics? How about We're saving organics from killing themselves by wiping them before they can create synthetics that kill everything? That'll do, awlright!"Needless to say, that was insanely dumb.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by blanks on Apr 8, 2017 0:30:24 GMT
I've been around since BioBoards. I assume you have as well so I'm sure you remember the petulant whining that went on nonstop for months after ME2 came out. What does that have to do with dice rolls? ME has always been an action RPG and Mac works on narrative, not systems. I haven't seen anyone asking for JE Sawyer to come work at BioWare and balance things out in any case.
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