thisisme8
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Post by thisisme8 on Apr 7, 2017 19:05:50 GMT
EDIT: Thanks everyone for your responses and for really keeping the discussion going, which is the reason I make these videos. Also, big thanks to whomever turned this into a poll.
I want to make sure before jumping in here with an opinion on who you liked more, this thread is about how the game initially presents the character in the beginning. I do, in fact, love Ryder. I like the hero's journey (Ryder) as much as the messiah complex (Shepard), I just feel the introduction didn't set me up as well at the very beginning.
To be honest, if the game had started on the shuttle en-route to Habitat 7, I believe we would have had a better narrative introduction to Ryder. In the end, though, I loved the game and I loved Ryder - memes be damned!
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 7, 2017 19:29:47 GMT
I actually really enjoyed the expectations of Alec Ryder and how the game snatches it away completely, and it was a pleasant change, to me, to be the "recruit" that gets thrusted into a role of greater responsibility, almost like if we were to play a sequence where Shepard fights off batarians during the blitz. Before that, no one really knew or cared about Shepard yet.
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Post by bakgrind on Apr 7, 2017 19:41:55 GMT
I actually really enjoyed the expectations of Alec Ryder and how the game snatches it away completely, and it was a pleasant change, to me, to be the "recruit" that gets thrusted into a role of greater responsibility, almost like if we were to play a sequence where Shepard fights off batarians during the blitz. Before that, no one really knew or cared about Shepard yet. I am of the same opinion as well. We actually got to experience Ryder's rise in real time and not to just see his/her accomplishments, but too live them. This aspect was much appreciated by myself. And it showed that Bioware was true to their word when they were saying that Ryder was not going to be a Shepard 2.0.
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rpgmaster
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Post by rpgmaster on Apr 7, 2017 19:46:56 GMT
I actually really enjoyed the expectations of Alec Ryder and how the game snatches it away completely, and it was a pleasant change, to me, to be the "recruit" that gets thrusted into a role of greater responsibility, almost like if we were to play a sequence where Shepard fights off batarians during the blitz. Before that, no one really knew or cared about Shepard yet. I am of the same opinion as well. We actually got to experience Ryder's rise in real time and not to just see his/her accomplishments, but too live them. This aspect was much appreciated by myself. And it showed that Bioware was true to their word when they were saying that Ryder was not going to be a Shepard 2.0. Have neither of you played BG, JE, DA:O or DA:I?
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Post by snook on Apr 7, 2017 19:48:46 GMT
I actually really enjoyed the expectations of Alec Ryder and how the game snatches it away completely, and it was a pleasant change, to me, to be the "recruit" that gets thrusted into a role of greater responsibility, almost like if we were to play a sequence where Shepard fights off batarians during the blitz. Before that, no one really knew or cared about Shepard yet. Me too. It's one of the reasons I hope we continue with Ryder - maybe by the third game, we'll be a Shepard esque legend. It'd be extra satisfying to stick with one character through that.
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Post by shechinah on Apr 7, 2017 19:50:39 GMT
I am of the same opinion as well. We actually got to experience Ryder's rise in real time and not to just see his/her accomplishments, but too live them. This aspect was much appreciated by myself. And it showed that Bioware was true to their word when they were saying that Ryder was not going to be a Shepard 2.0. Have neither of you played BG, JE, DA:O or DA:I? Except for Baldur's Gate, yes, I have but what does that have to do with Shepard and Ryder?
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Post by Sumerian Physics on Apr 7, 2017 19:53:12 GMT
I'm not a badass space marine veteran who has seen dozens of instances of combat and won numerous commendations for my exploits on the battlefield.
I have an easier time relating to a newbie who has done a couple of cool things here and there with space peace corps and has just enough experience to learn on the job without being killed.
I liked Commander Shepard more but that doesn't mean they're relatable
Btw "relatable" and "compelling" are not the same thing at all
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Post by rpgmaster on Apr 7, 2017 19:55:57 GMT
Have neither of you played BG, JE, DA:O or DA:I? Except for Baldur's Gate, yes, I have but what does that have to do with Shepard and Ryder? All the main characters of those games are "recruits that get trusted into a role of greater responsibility". This is not a new thing for Bioware.
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Post by FluffyCannibal on Apr 7, 2017 19:57:52 GMT
Except for Baldur's Gate, yes, I have but what does that have to do with Shepard and Ryder? All the main characters of those games are "recruits that get trusted into a role of greater responsibility". This is not a new thing for Bioware. They didn't say it was a new thing for BioWare, they said it was a new thing for Mass Effect...
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Post by jackdaniel on Apr 7, 2017 20:08:06 GMT
For me at least, Shepard was someone who has appropriate background, training and career that the plot demanded. He was selected for spectre before given spectre status, and he was in the chain of command to succeed anderson, so when he does take over it doesn't seem out of place.
I'm not sure what the writing process was like, but I feel like Shepard is character that the plot logically demands.
Shepard is like Kirk in the original series, people wrote the story and setting and then wrote Kirk to fit it. Ryder is like Kirk in the reboot, he IS the story.
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Post by ticktak77 on Apr 7, 2017 20:09:43 GMT
It's much easier to relate to a space born war hero, than an average Joe with a mother, father, and a sibling.
/s
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Post by shechinah on Apr 7, 2017 20:10:21 GMT
I'm not a badass space marine veteran who has seen dozens of instances of combat and won numerous commendations for my exploits on the battlefield. I have an easier time relating to a newbie who has done a couple of cool things here and there with space peace corps and has just enough experience to learn on the job without being killed. I liked Commander Shepard more but that doesn't mean they're relatable Btw "relatable" and "compelling" are not the same thing at all It wasn't so much that I couldn't relate to Shepard. Like I've said before, you can relate to someone's emotions and circumstances even if the situation they are in is one only found in fantasy It's hard to quite explain why Shepard didn't click with me the way Ryder did. It has nothing to do with their respective ages, though, that much I do know. I think part of it is that I had a hard time buying at times that Shepard could exist outside of their role and work as a soldier like, say, by having a personal interest unrelated to that field. I think that's part of why I like Ryder more: I can more easily see Ryder as someone who could have a life outside of their job and so exist more as an actual person. it didn't help that the trilogy had some odd writing turns for Shepard that should have been more acknowledged like the Sole Survivor background in Mass Effect. I'm not even going into how the auto-dialogue in Mass Effect 3 created character inconsistencies and how the lack of relationship mechanic retroactively created close relationships where none was before. I supposed I could say that Ryder feels more human than Shepard does and more a person. Like I said, it's a bit hard to explain but there is some of it, I think. Of the two, I found Ryder a more interesting character and that's even though Ryder lacked some of the dialogue options of the meaner variety that Shepard had. I supposed it may be that I found some of the options Ryder had were more meaningful like how you could select Ryder's motivation for coming along on the venture. I can't recall but in the OT, was there ever options to express Shepard's motivation for becoming a part of the Alliance?
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 7, 2017 20:12:29 GMT
Except for Baldur's Gate, yes, I have but what does that have to do with Shepard and Ryder? All the main characters of those games are "recruits that get trusted into a role of greater responsibility". This is not a new thing for Bioware. As a DA junkie I'm familiar with BioWare doing this. I simply said that I like it and am glad it's finally come to Mass Effect.
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thisisme8
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Post by thisisme8 on Apr 7, 2017 20:14:19 GMT
For me at least, Shepard was someone who has appropriate background, training and career that the plot demanded. He was selected for spectre before given spectre status, and he was in the chain of command to succeed anderson, so when he does take over it doesn't seem out of place. I'm not sure what the writing process was like, but I feel like Shepard is character that the plot logically demands. Shepard is like Kirk in the original series, people wrote the story and setting and then wrote Kirk to fit it. Ryder is like Kirk in the reboot, he IS the story. This is very interesting. What I think you're saying is: The OT created Shepard because the story demanded it. Andromeda created a story because Ryder demanded it. I like the analogy.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 7, 2017 20:14:55 GMT
I'm not a badass space marine veteran who has seen dozens of instances of combat and won numerous commendations for my exploits on the battlefield. I have an easier time relating to a newbie who has done a couple of cool things here and there with space peace corps and has just enough experience to learn on the job without being killed. I liked Commander Shepard more but that doesn't mean they're relatable Btw "relatable" and "compelling" are not the same thing at all It wasn't so much that I couldn't relate to Shepard. Like I've said before, you can relate to someone's emotions and circumstances even if the situation they are in is one only found in fantasy It's hard to quite explain why Shepard didn't click with me the way Ryder did. It has nothing to do with their respective ages, though, that much I do know. I think part of it is that I had a hard time buying at times that Shepard could exist outside of their role and work as a soldier like, say, by having a personal interest unrelated to that field. I think that's part of why I like Ryder more: I can more easily see Ryder as someone who could have a life outside of their job and so exist more as an actual person. it didn't help that the trilogy had some odd writing turns for Shepard that should have been more acknowledged like the Sole Survivor background in Mass Effect. I'm not even going into how the auto-dialogue in Mass Effect 3 created character inconsistencies and how the lack of relationship mechanic retroactively created close relationships where none was before. Like I said, it's a bit hard to explain but there is some of it, I think. Of the two, I found Ryder a more interesting character and that's even though Ryder lacked some of the dialogue options of the meaner variety that Shepard had. I supposed it may be that I found some of the options Ryder had were more meaningful like how you could select Ryder's motivation for coming along on the venture. I can't recall but in the OT, was there ever options to express Shepard's motivation for becoming a part of the Alliance? One of your points reminds me of Jacob's dialogue in ME3, when he says Shepard would never leave the Normandy. Like what? When the hell was it established that Shepard can't live without being on that ship?
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Post by wellsoul2 on Apr 7, 2017 20:23:00 GMT
When you watch the video you see how well written and introduced Shepard was for Mass Effect 1. In fact I'd have to say the whole of MA1 is well written and plotted which you need for a new franchise.
I still like MEA but it is harder to match Ryder to their actions.
It's one thing to be an unknown Dragonborn and go out and soon be slaughtering monsters in some medieval period.
It's quite different to be Ryder, who seems to have been military, but certainly not a commander in battle.
Shepard definitely was perfect for Mass Effect - It's got to be harder to make Ryder so iconic.
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Post by bakgrind on Apr 7, 2017 20:24:17 GMT
I am of the same opinion as well. We actually got to experience Ryder's rise in real time and not to just see his/her accomplishments, but too live them. This aspect was much appreciated by myself. And it showed that Bioware was true to their word when they were saying that Ryder was not going to be a Shepard 2.0. Have neither of you played BG, JE, DA:O or DA:I? I know you are trying to say that it's the same formula as both of those games and you are probably right.That just reinforces why it works out so well for Andromeda because "we" are that character . We as players kind of craft and shape them along their journeys and define who they are. It is interesting though why having a "bad ass" type starting character worked out better for the previous Mass Effect games than it did for DA II.
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thisisme8
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Post by thisisme8 on Apr 7, 2017 20:24:51 GMT
When you watch the video you see how well written and introduced Shepard was for Mass Effect 1. In fact I'd have to say the whole of MA1 is well written and plotted which you need for a new franchise. I still like MEA but it is harder to match Ryder to their actions. It's one thing to be an unknown Dragonborn and go out and soon be slaughtering monsters in some medieval period. It's quite different to be Ryder, who seems to have been military, but certainly not a commander in battle. Shepard definitely was perfect for Mass Effect - It's got to be harder to make Ryder so iconic. You get me, wellsoul2. You really get me. This is basically the whole video in a nutshell.
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Post by shechinah on Apr 7, 2017 20:27:07 GMT
For me at least, Shepard was someone who has appropriate background, training and career that the plot demanded. He was selected for spectre before given spectre status, and he was in the chain of command to succeed anderson, so when he does take over it doesn't seem out of place. I'm not sure what the writing process was like, but I feel like Shepard is character that the plot logically demands. Shepard is like Kirk in the original series, people wrote the story and setting and then wrote Kirk to fit it. Ryder is like Kirk in the reboot, he IS the story. Eh, I think the logic was lost after the first game when Shepard kept getting yanked into different positions like having to ally with Cerberus because the Alliance was allegedly not doing anything despite the fact that it can clearly be seen in the story that the Alliance was trying to protect the colonists through active efforts. They just lacked the knowledge of how to do so. Not to mention, it seemed like the second game was really trying to downplay the Sole Survivor background. That said, I do agree that Shepard being selected for Spectre in the first game made sense even if other parts of the game didn't. Honestly, and I know I might catch some flak for this, I didn't really mind how Ryder got the role of Pathfinder because, well, it was basically another example of how bad the state of things had gone. Alec Ryder died after becoming emotionally compromised, the near-death experience permanently anchored SAM to Ryder, so many links off the chain of command was destroyed and every attempt to correct the course had gone awry. Basically, things had reached rock bottom and it was hard to see how things could get worse if Ryder got a try. I rather liked that angle: it was part of why I didn't mind Ryder getting thrust into a position of responsibility. Another part is how Ryder did get looked down at by the leadership for basically being a rookie in comparison to Alec.
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Post by sdzald on Apr 7, 2017 20:28:54 GMT
I don't know, I always felt connected to Shepard, and I just don't with Ryder. Maybe it has something to do with my perception that I made Shepard the kind of person I wanted to play and even when I played it multiple times and played Shepard totally different he was who I made him.
With Ryder all my choices either seem pointless or I don't have the choices I want. With Ryder it seems like I am just along for the ride, like I am watching a movie and that I have no real control over him/her. Seems like I am in the minority here but it is how I feel.
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Post by jackdaniel on Apr 7, 2017 20:30:08 GMT
For me at least, Shepard was someone who has appropriate background, training and career that the plot demanded. He was selected for spectre before given spectre status, and he was in the chain of command to succeed anderson, so when he does take over it doesn't seem out of place. I'm not sure what the writing process was like, but I feel like Shepard is character that the plot logically demands. Shepard is like Kirk in the original series, people wrote the story and setting and then wrote Kirk to fit it. Ryder is like Kirk in the reboot, he IS the story. Eh, I think the logic was lost after the first game At which point the character is already become your own, so it's impossible to compare that to Ryder. Within the scope of comparing two brand new protagonist I think that's valid.
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Post by Ieldra on Apr 7, 2017 20:31:29 GMT
I don't want my rpg characters to be "relatable". Relate I do to someone else.
I want them to be identifiable, as in "I want to identify with them". For that, it is important that no canonical traits are ascribed to the character that I don't like. By that measure, I must prefer Ryder to Shepard by a significant margin.
However, I have to agree that Shepard is more convincingly written as what the writers wanted them to be against my preferences, than Ryder is as what they wanted them to be in accordance with my preferences. Having said that, writing can improve, but the character concept can't change, so I have a little hope for Ryder yet.
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Post by shechinah on Apr 7, 2017 20:33:11 GMT
Eh, I think the logic was lost after the first game At which point the character is already become your own, so it's impossible to compare that to Ryder. Within the scope of comparing two brand new protagonist I think that's valid.Fair enough although as I mentioned I didn't really have a problem with how Ryder got thrown into the role of Pathfinder.
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Post by setokaiba on Apr 7, 2017 20:38:01 GMT
I don't know, I always felt connected to Shepard, and I just don't with Ryder. Maybe it has something to do with my perception that I made Shepard the kind of person I wanted to play and even when I played it multiple times and played Shepard totally different he was who I made him. With Ryder all my choices either seem pointless or I don't have the choices I want. With Ryder it seems like I am just along for the ride, like I am watching a movie and that I have no real control over him/her. Seems like I am in the minority here but it is how I feel. Unless they do a second game with Ryder doubt we'll see our choices having any weight. Like most choices in ME1 don't even play out until Mass Effect 2 or 3.
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Post by jackdaniel on Apr 7, 2017 20:47:30 GMT
For me at least, Shepard was someone who has appropriate background, training and career that the plot demanded. He was selected for spectre before given spectre status, and he was in the chain of command to succeed anderson, so when he does take over it doesn't seem out of place. I'm not sure what the writing process was like, but I feel like Shepard is character that the plot logically demands. Shepard is like Kirk in the original series, people wrote the story and setting and then wrote Kirk to fit it. Ryder is like Kirk in the reboot, he IS the story. Eh, I think the logic was lost after the first game when Shepard kept getting yanked into different positions like having to ally with Cerberus because the Alliance was allegedly not doing anything despite the fact that it can clearly be seen in the story that the Alliance was trying to protect the colonists through active efforts. They just lacked the knowledge of how to do so. Not to mention, it seemed like the second game was really trying to downplay the Sole Survivor background. That said, I do agree that Shepard being selected for Spectre in the first game made sense even if other parts of the game didn't. Honestly, and I know I might catch some flak for this, I didn't really mind how Ryder got the role of Pathfinder because, well, it was basically another example of how bad the state of things had gone. Alec Ryder died after becoming emotionally compromised, the near-death experience permanently anchored SAM to Ryder, so many links off the chain of command was destroyed and every attempt to correct the course had gone awry. Basically, things had reached rock bottom and it was hard to see how things could get worse if Ryder got a try. I rather liked that angle: it was part of why I didn't mind Ryder getting thrust into a position of responsibility. Another part is how Ryder did get looked down at by the leadership for basically being a rookie in comparison to Alec. another thing is that Shepard could get away with not having a character arc or character development, because he is already a matured hardened veteran. Ryder, as you described, will goes from a rookie to someone having the most responsibility over the course of the game. It's not something I think the game did well.
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