TurianFetish
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Post by TurianFetish on Apr 16, 2017 11:08:00 GMT
I'm in the minority, because I actually love Vivienne. Many people don't like her due to her pro-circle attitude and the fact that she, a priviledged mage, judges the rest of them so harshly. It's hard to not like her when you at least partially agree with her though.
As for Jacob, well, I don't like Jacob, but his ethnicity has nothing to do with it. It's simple, he is a poorly written character, very bland in comparison to other companions and his romance ark is... terrible, creepy and disgusting (Heavy risk... but the PRIIIIIIIIIIZE + cheating on Shepard almost immediately after she lets him out of her sight).
I have nothing against Liam, I like him and don't really understand all the hate he gets. Yes, he is a bit immature and sometimes does things before using his brain, but many people do and flaws make characters more realistic. He is a good guy with good intentions, he just needs to grow up a little bit. Also, I adore his friendship with Jaal.
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Post by Ocelot on Apr 16, 2017 11:16:02 GMT
Well, regardless of her race, she's still the only human PoC LI that males can romance, while every human male LI is a PoC. Not saying it's bad or anything, but it is somewhat odd, IMO. Bioware should mix it up a bit and have the female human LI in either DA4 or ME5 be something other than white. It is true that they've all been of European or partially European (or their DA fantasy equivalent) so far. Yeah I wouldn't have minded if Cora was PoC either. In fact, I was kind of hoping for it, but then it became Liam
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Post by cloud9 on Apr 16, 2017 11:56:58 GMT
Izzy is obviously a mediterranean caucasoid, I was always dumbfounded by others refering to her as "black". Ah, but here is the question, are bsn posters being racist when they refer to her as a different ethnicity than the one she is? Ultimately, this is a silly thread. Neither Bioware nor BSN are racist. Jacob is somewhat dull, but that doesn't make his inclusion racist, it just means he has a dull persona. I actually like the character, if he was in ME1 he'd have been a lot better received, but he first appeared in a game featuring a genetically modified woman, insanely powerful biotics, reptilian assassins, perfect krogan specimens and a geth! No wonder he didn't stand out. Also, a lot of bsn posters seem to play femShep, so their view of him is skewed to the romance where I play maleShep where he is just a guy on the ship. Sure, he's dull, doesn't mean he isn't likeable. He has daddy issues, sure... but so you realise, that's not just for black people. That is something that is worldwide, all cultural groups have shit dads in their midst. Oh, and Jacob's dad wasn't even the worst of the lot (though he was pretty horrendous, its a horrible mission), Miranda's dad was worse by far; he genetically engineered children discarding those that didn't match up, kidnapped his own daughter, lured thousands to a camp to be tortured, experimented on and turned into husks. Was giving his family Australian accents racist against Australians? Liam is... confusing. He was poorly written, as he seems almost like two separate characters. Does that make it racist? No. It means they wrote him poorly, he seemed to be unbelievable as a former crisis response operative when he can't handle a crisis. When he is being chilled out, he's fine, but he seems to drift from being chilled, to snide, to bitchy, to panicky. They just handled the character badly, I expect if there is a sequel, he'll be a side character but will probably turn out the better for it. Anderson was a brilliant character, well written, well acted. He wasn't perfect, he was deeply flawed but gracious enough to accept when he was wrong. He gets to be Councillor but admits his inexperience with it and his struggles to deal politically with the other councillors. Bioware doesn't get praised for what a great character he was. In fact, they never seem to get praised by people, at least I never seem to see it. At the moment, through the media and through overuse of the internet, we are ingrained to look for controversy. The next big thing to get up in arms about, but its just silly. The original trilogy had some truly outstanding characters, and it doesn't really matter whether they are genetically engineered, former corsairs, former spectre candidates, or kleptomaniacs. In fact, ethnicity doesn't come into it at all, and shouldn't. Race and ethnicity are not the same you know and it's odd that BioWare writes poorly about black people. I say write them with human qualities and flaws without stereotyping or don't make them at all.
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Post by turianlannister on Apr 16, 2017 12:05:05 GMT
People dislike Jacob because of his writing, rapist father on loyalty mission (black man as rapist has unfortunate implications) and the cheating on a romanced FemShep and knocking up another woman (another unfortunate implicate because there's a stereotype that black men are cheaters)
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Post by obatalaryder on Apr 16, 2017 12:07:13 GMT
it's totally not racist when people constantly keep comparing Liam to Jacob (such as "do you like Jacob or Liam"), solely on the criteria that they're black squadmates.
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Post by turianlannister on Apr 16, 2017 12:07:19 GMT
I think it's more likely that BSN is biased against poorly written, shallow characters. And with Vivienne it's a case of people hating on characters who disagree with their Inquisitor, Jack got a lot of hate after ME2 because she refused to speak to MShep and repeatedly told him to fuck off if he had casual sex with her (because she saw him as just another user)
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Post by turianlannister on Apr 16, 2017 12:24:23 GMT
I think it's more likely that BSN is biased against poorly written, shallow characters. If that were true no one would like Cora or Miranda. Arguably though Miranda became more human and less shallow by ME3, but point still stands in ME2 she was as shallow and as boring as you could get. Well, there's two very round reasons as to why a lot of people like Miranda
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2017 18:27:19 GMT
I'm in the minority, because I actually love Vivienne. Many people don't like her due to her pro-circle attitude and the fact that she, a priviledged mage, judges the rest of them so harshly. It's hard to not like her when you at least partially agree with her though. Vivienne may have been my favorite companion in that game, but then my Inquisitor was a warrior and I thought Vivienne was right about a lot of what she said of the mage revolt.
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Post by mordivier on Apr 16, 2017 19:47:19 GMT
it's totally not racist when people constantly keep comparing Liam to Jacob (such as "do you like Jacob or Liam"), solely on the criteria that they're black squadmates. Yeah, well, everyone has a preference for one black person over another if your comparing the two in an objective scenario...which is what that is. That is not racist. That is reality. Get over it. You don't see people complaining about comparing Cora VS Miranda as racist. Why the double standard? Because society/government/media and a whole lot of people in-between love to hate on white people and be hypocritical about the whole "racist" thing.
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Post by duskwanderer on Apr 16, 2017 21:31:46 GMT
If BSN is biased against black folk, it's because people make annoying topics like these.
Vivienne was a great character. Easy to dislike, but never hate, and just as easy to admire, if not like. Her arguments were rational and reasonable. It was her banter (and not even about the Circle, no less) that made her annoying. I didn't like to use her much also because she made the game too easy.
Jacob was boring, and useless. Once you got Grunt, there was no point keeping him in the party. Then, he cheats on Shepard, has crappy dialogue, and his mission plays out perfectly normal if he wasn't there. It wasn't like Mordin, where his absence was felt. It was almost like Jacob was expected to die in the Collector Base. He just has nothing interesting.
People don't like Liam because he's mean to Sideria. Yeah, the kid's a brat, but it's a no-no to critique someone else's parenting.
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Post by obatalaryder on Apr 17, 2017 0:32:33 GMT
it's totally not racist when people constantly keep comparing Liam to Jacob (such as "do you like Jacob or Liam"), solely on the criteria that they're black squadmates. Yeah, well, everyone has a preference for one black person over another if your comparing the two in an objective scenario...which is what that is. That is not racist. That is reality. Get over it. You don't see people complaining about comparing Cora VS Miranda as racist. Why the double standard? Because society/government/media and a whole lot of people in-between love to hate on white people and be hypocritical about the whole "racist" thing. Nah that's racist. If race/gender wasn't so important, why do white folks make it a constant subconscious to compare Liam to Jacob just because they're both black and male? " "You don't see people complaining about comparing Cora VS Miranda as racist. " Cora and Miranda are both white... Am I being trolled...?
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Post by obatalaryder on Apr 17, 2017 0:41:36 GMT
I find the constant recall to Jacob being the series' punching bag as the most hated charather to be pretty racist, honestly.
You would be led to believe Jacob was the reincarnate of Satan if you went by people's opinions and poll votes. People can't leave it off at boring.
Even then, the "boringness" in itself is slated to be worst of all worst of a characther trait...
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Post by Seera1024 on Apr 17, 2017 0:46:29 GMT
Yeah, well, everyone has a preference for one black person over another if your comparing the two in an objective scenario...which is what that is. That is not racist. That is reality. Get over it. You don't see people complaining about comparing Cora VS Miranda as racist. Why the double standard? Because society/government/media and a whole lot of people in-between love to hate on white people and be hypocritical about the whole "racist" thing. Nah that's racist. If race/gender wasn't so important, why do white folks make it a constant subconscious to compare Liam to Jacob just because they're both black and male? " "You don't see people complaining about comparing Cora VS Miranda as racist. " Cora and Miranda are both white... Am I being trolled...? But are they being compared because of their skin color or because they are both characters who suffer from bad writing? I'd say it's the bad writing mostly. They didn't give Jacob anything special to stand out among the crew in ME2 and they decided to make his character cheat on the PC in ME3 if he had been romanced in ME2. Liam, while his romance arc was well done, his professional arc wasn't. He was in the police and crisis control, he should be able to make rational decisions. And that's even excusing Habitat 7 shenanigans as they were pretty much thrown into that situation after coming out of cryo. I'll give some allowance for deviance from expected behavior due to that.
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Post by Seera1024 on Apr 17, 2017 0:49:25 GMT
I find the constant recall to Jacob being the series' punching bag as the most hated charather to be pretty racist, honestly. You would be led to believe Jacob was the reincarnate of Satan if you went by people's opinions and poll votes. People can't leave it off at boring. Even then, the "boringness" in itself is slated to be worst of all worst of a characther trait... It's only racist if the reasons behind it are because he's black. And it's not. It's because of the bad writing his character got.
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Post by obatalaryder on Apr 17, 2017 0:52:19 GMT
"I don't like character x as a person, therefore they are terribly written." The world according to BSN. This is all I see from every single post in this thread. It's a pretty lazy attempt at looking at your internal biases. "I'm not racist, the characthers are just terribly written!" As though they know the internal constrcuts of writing a characther. Me disliking certain charathers doesn't mean they're inherently badly written or that the author failed. I HATE Miranda and found joy in killing her off in ME2 but that's solely because I don't like her as a person, not because of Bioware's writing capabilities.
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Post by obatalaryder on Apr 17, 2017 0:55:32 GMT
Nah that's racist. If race/gender wasn't so important, why do white folks make it a constant subconscious to compare Liam to Jacob just because they're both black and male? " "You don't see people complaining about comparing Cora VS Miranda as racist. " Cora and Miranda are both white... Am I being trolled...? But are they being compared because of their skin color or because they are both characters who suffer from bad writing? I'd say it's the bad writing mostly. They didn't give Jacob anything special to stand out among the crew in ME2 and they decided to make his character cheat on the PC in ME3 if he had been romanced in ME2. Liam, while his romance arc was well done, his professional arc wasn't. He was in the police and crisis control, he should be able to make rational decisions. And that's even excusing Habitat 7 shenanigans as they were pretty much thrown into that situation after coming out of cryo. I'll give some allowance for deviance from expected behavior due to that. See post above. I'm not letting you guys off the "it's the bad writing" hook. Here's a catch. what if I ENJOYED Jacob's characther. Is that still bad writing? Is there an objective criteria towards this? And since when was it written in Liam's genetic code that in an alien galaxy 2 million lightyears away "he should be able to make rational decisions". He's a cop, not a soldier.
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Post by Seera1024 on Apr 17, 2017 0:58:35 GMT
"I don't like character x as a person, therefore they are terribly written." The world according to BSN. This is all I see from every single post in this thread. It's a pretty lazy attempt at looking at your internal biases. "I'm not racist, the characthers are just terribly written!" As though they know the internal constrcuts of writing a characther. Me disliking certain charathers doesn't mean they're inherently badly written or that the author failed. I HATE Miranda and found joy in killing her off in ME2 but that's solely because I don't like her as a person, not because of Bioware's writing capabilities. And in Jacob's case it is bad writing that causes people to not like him. Not his race. I don't like TIM because of his personality, not because of Bioware's writing capabilities or his race.
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Post by Seera1024 on Apr 17, 2017 1:00:48 GMT
But are they being compared because of their skin color or because they are both characters who suffer from bad writing? I'd say it's the bad writing mostly. They didn't give Jacob anything special to stand out among the crew in ME2 and they decided to make his character cheat on the PC in ME3 if he had been romanced in ME2. Liam, while his romance arc was well done, his professional arc wasn't. He was in the police and crisis control, he should be able to make rational decisions. And that's even excusing Habitat 7 shenanigans as they were pretty much thrown into that situation after coming out of cryo. I'll give some allowance for deviance from expected behavior due to that. See post above. I'm not letting you guys off the "it's the bad writing" hook. Here's a catch. what if I ENJOYED Jacob's characther. Is that still bad writing? Is there an objective criteria towards this? And since when was it written in Liam's genetic code that in an alien galaxy 2 million lightyears away "he should be able to make rational decisions". He's a cop, not a soldier. It isn't that his character was badly written. It's that when all of the other characters were either returning party members or had something that made them special, Jacob wasn't given anything. That's bad writing. Jacob wasn't given anything equally special. I don't hate Jacob, I just don't particularly like Jacob. He's just meh. Edit to add: As for Liam, one would think that when people train to be cops or go into crisis response they're ability to make rational decisions is part of the hiring process. He should be able to realize that he needs to check in with Ryder before doing any of the things he did with regards to the situation involving his loyalty mission. Chain of command would pretty important to a cop and anyone chosen to be on a pathfinder team would be checked to see if they had a tendency to follow command or not.
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Post by mordivier on Apr 17, 2017 2:04:56 GMT
Yeah, well, everyone has a preference for one black person over another if your comparing the two in an objective scenario...which is what that is. That is not racist. That is reality. Get over it. You don't see people complaining about comparing Cora VS Miranda as racist. Why the double standard? Because society/government/media and a whole lot of people in-between love to hate on white people and be hypocritical about the whole "racist" thing. Nah that's racist. If race/gender wasn't so important, why do white folks make it a constant subconscious to compare Liam to Jacob just because they're both black and male? " "You don't see people complaining about comparing Cora VS Miranda as racist. " Cora and Miranda are both white... Am I being trolled...? Frankly, I really do not give a damn if you think its racist. I do give a damn when you try argue for a change in mentality/behavior when it doesnt suit what you want it to be. Your not even using the word correctly anyways. That word meant believing a particular race was inherently superior just because they are of a race that isn't of another. Ergo, white people are superior because they are white and not because they are black. It had no definition of preference of one black over another or even acknowledging a difference between a white or a black. Your analogy is ridiculous as well. That is the same principle of Chinese male trying to decide if He likes one indian female over another based on whatever context. Its a fact of life that preference and opinion exist and this "whites are always racist because you don't like whatever they say or do because you don't agree with their methodology" can very well be argued as a form of racism by your own damn standard. ...and yeah. Cora and Miranda are both white. If your a black man trying to decide which white girl you like most or hate the worst based on whatever...then your "racist" by your own standard. Are you going to cry foul over that? "Oh no! Apples to oranges! Wrong standard! Wrong comparison! Racist!" Like I said...only whites can be racist and evil and sinful in this context. That's what it is today. Double-standard.
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Post by gplayer on Apr 17, 2017 2:10:48 GMT
All of the stuff mentioned here is anecdotal, its not a real bias issue or bias issue that matters. From my perspective it just seems that Bioware is incapable of writing interesting human squad mates. The only one I felt had a lot of depth was Miranda Lawson. A lot of black human non-squad mates were actually interesting, like Anderson and that other guy (the ambassador, forgot his name).
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Post by cloud9 on Apr 17, 2017 2:15:42 GMT
it's totally not racist when people constantly keep comparing Liam to Jacob (such as "do you like Jacob or Liam"), solely on the criteria that they're black squadmates. Yeah, well, everyone has a preference for one black person over another if your comparing the two in an objective scenario...which is what that is. That is not racist. That is reality. Get over it. You don't see people complaining about comparing Cora VS Miranda as racist. Why the double standard? Because society/government/media and a whole lot of people in-between love to hate on white people and be hypocritical about the whole "racist" thing. Please we both know that is so not true. It's the opposite not the other way round.
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Post by mordivier on Apr 17, 2017 2:19:55 GMT
Yeah, well, everyone has a preference for one black person over another if your comparing the two in an objective scenario...which is what that is. That is not racist. That is reality. Get over it. You don't see people complaining about comparing Cora VS Miranda as racist. Why the double standard? Because society/government/media and a whole lot of people in-between love to hate on white people and be hypocritical about the whole "racist" thing. Please we both know that is so not true. It's the opposite not the other way round. Considering you proposing the Melanin Theory in another thread as being a fact I am not inclined to take anything you say in this context at face value.
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Post by cloud9 on Apr 17, 2017 2:31:06 GMT
People dislike Jacob because of his writing, rapist father on loyalty mission (black man as rapist has unfortunate implications) and the cheating on a romanced FemShep and knocking up another woman (another unfortunate implicate because there's a stereotype that black men are cheaters) No wonder Manveer Heir don't like them.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Apr 17, 2017 2:55:20 GMT
Please we both know that is so not true. It's the opposite not the other way round. Considering you proposing the Melanin Theory in another thread as being a fact I am not inclined to take anything you say in this context at face value. cloud9 is a worthless racist, not worth your time.
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Post by obatalaryder on Apr 17, 2017 3:28:54 GMT
This is all I see from every single post in this thread. It's a pretty lazy attempt at looking at your internal biases. "I'm not racist, the characthers are just terribly written!" As though they know the internal constrcuts of writing a characther. Me disliking certain charathers doesn't mean they're inherently badly written or that the author failed. I HATE Miranda and found joy in killing her off in ME2 but that's solely because I don't like her as a person, not because of Bioware's writing capabilities. And in Jacob's case it is bad writing that causes people to not like him. Not his race. I don't like TIM because of his personality, not because of Bioware's writing capabilities or his race. Still haven't seen anyone explain an objective criteria to what makes a characther "badly written". All I hear is "I don't like this black guy's personality, so that must mean he was written badly". Is good writing supposed to make a characther likeable? Miranda will never be likable to me no matter 2deep her daddy issues are. I'm not following this line of logic.
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