raikas
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Post by raikas on Apr 12, 2017 4:29:19 GMT
Personally I loved Vivienne and thought Liam was reasonably amusing. I never got around to doing a full run as femShep, but just knowing that Jacob will cheat on her if romanced makes him worthy of dislike as far as I'm concerned.
That said, of course there's going to be racial bias on the forum - there's racial bias everywhere. Is that necessarily why people don't like those three characters? I don't know, it's certainly possible. Although in Vivienne's case I think she was written specifically to be divisive, so a certain amount of dislike aimed at her is going to be intentional on the part of the writers.
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mihai2011rom
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Post by mihai2011rom on Apr 12, 2017 4:32:52 GMT
Lol at sjw race troll. Nice b8 m8.
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Arcian
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Post by Arcian on Apr 12, 2017 4:43:58 GMT
I've noticed that black characters in Bioware games (Jacob, Liam, Vivienne) are usually among the most disliked on BSN (new and old). These characters are all very different so I'm curious why people hate all three of them. Now please don't get knee-jerk defensive, I'm not accusing anyone of being racist but I do want everyone to examine their own internal biases. Jacob is boring, Liam is an unprofessional douche and Vivienne is a stuck up cunt with a superiority complex. Their skin color is not a part of the equation. Neverwinter Nights, Aarin Gend is one of the cooler characters and he's also black. Kotor 1, Jolee Bindo is black and one of the most well-liked characters of the game. Captain Anderson is black and well-liked. Assuming people hate other people for their skin color is as racist as actually hating other people for their skin color.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2017 4:47:43 GMT
I read that a lot posts with members saying that, but what about irritating? He comes in there making smart comments to Tali and Thane. If my Shepard had the choice on the dialog wheel, Shep would have said get your ass in the armory and do your job, leave the recruiting to me.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Apr 12, 2017 5:06:39 GMT
I think it's more likely that BSN is biased against poorly written, shallow characters. If that were true no one would like Cora or Miranda. Arguably though Miranda became more human and less shallow by ME3, but point still stands in ME2 she was as shallow and as boring as you could get. I think that characterization of Miranda is a little unfair. Sure, at first she comes across as stuck up, conceited, obligatory eye candy (the butt shots were excessive), and a generally unpleasant person. Get to know her, however, and you actually realize she has quite a compelling story. She isn't as cold and calculating as she first seems, and if you romance her she even warms up to you more quickly. She actually ended up being one of my favorite characters just because she seemed to evolve more than most of the squadmates in the original trilogy.
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steppinrazor
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Post by steppinrazor on Apr 12, 2017 5:20:39 GMT
Every character I make EVER is black, because well... I am too, and it's easier for me to immerse and relate. I've actually never played a white character, unless forced to. Some games, like Dragon Age Origins, are REALLY bad at this though, almost impossible to make a decent looking black person. Here are some recent examples, My Ryder, who I've posted before, His sister, My most recent Shepard, and my favorite ever, who romance Kaidan (Renagon with a sweet side) And also, my Mage Inquisitor, also gayyyyy as hell lol, All black and beautiful! ^__^
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unofficialgreycolor
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Post by unofficialgreycolor on Apr 12, 2017 5:52:59 GMT
TL;DR, but I am thinking of making a black bro ryder in my next playthrough just because this thread was made.
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Post by mordrek on Apr 12, 2017 5:53:11 GMT
Maybe Bioware was trying to keep it real with Jacob, something like 75% of black kids are raised in single parent households. I mean ME2 was before they went all SJW wasn't it?
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Post by doch on Apr 12, 2017 6:16:40 GMT
Maybe Bioware was trying to keep it real with Jacob, something like 75% of black kids are raised in single parent households. I mean ME2 was before they went all SJW wasn't it? Perhaps some SJWs snuck in by then. IMO, they tend to stereotype without realizing it.
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Post by Duke Cameron on Apr 12, 2017 6:42:24 GMT
I have no problem with any of them. In the case of Liam and Jacob, it's just that I find everyone else more interesting.
I love Vivienne! I was pro free mage and against most of her opinions and we still ended up best friends.
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Fen'Harel Faceman
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Apr 12, 2017 6:50:03 GMT
I've noticed that black characters in Bioware games (Jacob, Liam, Vivienne) are usually among the most disliked on BSN (new and old). I've noticed the opposite. I'd like you to examine your own, based on the bias you've just shown here.
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Conquer Your Dreams
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Post by Conquer Your Dreams on Apr 12, 2017 7:06:32 GMT
Those characters are badly written, that's it. Other thing is, as much I dislike Vivienne and Liam,i like Jacob. He was great guy, but his part in ME3 was just bad, especially for females, who would like to continue his romance from ME2.
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Post by cloud9 on Apr 12, 2017 7:47:00 GMT
I loved Vivienne and I want to have a romantic relationship with her, but they won't do that because they have issue with black women having serious relationships in the game.
Isabella is not really a black person but looked like she's from India but BioWare created her as a racial stereotype of a hypersexual woman and of color hence the word Jezebel.
And Jacob is nothing but a sex toy and a token unfortunately.
Yep BioWare have screwed up that one...
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Post by Papa Franku on Apr 12, 2017 8:05:05 GMT
I think Liam I way cooler and more of a friend the Jacob. Jacob was boring just like Ashley, Miranda and Kaiden.
Jacob's loyalty mission was just depressing and I didn't feel anything for Jacob. While Liam was a always from the start keen about helping people even if he did screw up I feelt more for his mission then Jacob's. Besides Liam's mission was more a comic bonding moment for Liam and Ryder.
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Post by ayenari on Apr 12, 2017 8:19:28 GMT
How was Vivienne poorly written like suggested in this thread?
Decent writing is more about whether the character has internal consistency in their personality and their actions, and if what they're saying is sentences a real person might string together when spoken out loud, rather than whether they're likeable and agreeable people.
That said, I still hate her cause she's a bit of an asshole with a personal agenda.
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Post by dark8sage on Apr 12, 2017 8:23:56 GMT
I've noticed that black characters in Bioware games (Jacob, Liam, Vivienne) are usually among the most disliked on BSN (new and old). These characters are all very different so I'm curious why people hate all three of them. Now please don't get knee-jerk defensive, I'm not accusing anyone of being racist but I do want everyone to examine their own internal biases. You assume people have internal bias because the characters they dislike happen to be black and then tell people that you are not accusing them of being racist despite the implication of internal bias being that you are a racist. The reason they don't like the characters for Liam and Jacob is because they're shit character. They are bland. They're wallflowers that don't stand out in combat or personality. Jacob even dumps you to go have a baby with somebody else. Vivienne is a polarizing character. She's liked because of her wit. But she's deeply disliked for being perceived as an Uncle Tom character. She lectures from a position of privilege. She would shackle other mages while accepting no fetters for herself. It's why she hates Morrigan, because Morrigan is unabashedly independent and a dominant personality much like Vivienne.
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mrtijger
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Post by mrtijger on Apr 12, 2017 8:31:52 GMT
Others have already said it, but Anderson is easily one of the most liked and Iconic figures of the MET. It's not skin color, it's bad writing. That makes zero sense, how can it be bad writing when Anderson hardly has any lines to be written?
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Apr 12, 2017 8:32:51 GMT
I'm just waiting for Cloud9 to show up Not enough Melamine for him.
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Post by ToLazy4Name on Apr 12, 2017 8:36:53 GMT
I think it's more likely that BioWARE is biased against black characters considering how absolutely shit all of them have been thus far (at least in Mass Effect).
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Conquer Your Dreams
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Say that you love me
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Post by Conquer Your Dreams on Apr 12, 2017 8:44:17 GMT
Liam better than Jacob ? OMG. Sometimes i'am not quite sure that people who make those judgements really play trilogy.
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Apr 12, 2017 8:44:55 GMT
I think it's more likely that BioWARE is biased against black characters considering how absolutely shit all of them have been thus far (at least in Mass Effect).
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Post by mordrek on Apr 12, 2017 8:45:19 GMT
Others have already said it, but Anderson is easily one of the most liked and Iconic figures of the MET. It's not skin color, it's bad writing. That makes zero sense, how can it be bad writing when Anderson hardly has any lines to be written? The bad writing is Liam and Jacob. As for Anderson, he's in all three games, and 8 DLC's. He's got plenty of "lines". Not to mention the books.
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Post by bizantura on Apr 12, 2017 9:08:14 GMT
Liam = traitor and plain stupid. Jacob has weak bland personality. Vivienne = badass opportunist.
Vivienne was a well-written character and I liked her. As a contrast, she fitted well within DAI cast. The other 2, shoot and space em. Good/bad whatever race characters have I don't care. The brainless/spineless ones I detest and lately Bioware is slipping more and more of them in and it's hurting their franchises. The games are filled up with good-doers muchi stuff by the bucket load and badly written ones at that. You can't deny stellar cast writers left and been replaced with 3de rate bad novel writers and it shows very much thru MEA.
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Post by Sailears on Apr 12, 2017 9:17:53 GMT
Anderson and Jolee Bindo - two gods among all the characters that Bioware have ever created. I dislike Miranda more than Jacob (and that's coming from a straight male) simply because her character annoyed me, and I kind of like Liam though he is a bit over zealous. Jacob "The Prize", "Sounds like a suicide mission - I volunteer" Taylor was just badly written. Well I suppose he was well written if you take him as a comedic character.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2017 9:19:02 GMT
In all candor There's lots of PC and left wing politics in gamer circles. Jacob isn't a victim of circumstance. He's a viction of someone that shouldn't have have been writing a character in ME 2.
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