The Twilight God
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Post by The Twilight God on Apr 16, 2017 2:15:37 GMT
I'm pondering changing my canon ending to ME:3. It occurs to me that the lack of huge consequences for the failure of the Andromeda Initiative are partly down to the fact that the races of the Milky Way mostly seem to recover after the three standard choices - Control, Destroy or Merge. The stakes just aren't too high in the Andromeda system as a result - we know that life goes on elsewhere. However, if the beings of the Initiative are literally the last sentient survivors of the Milky Way - 200,000 souls out of hundreds of billions - suddenly the importance of the colony flourishing is incalculable. This is the one seed left out of a mighty forest - a town the size of Little Rock, Arkansas, is all that is left of the races of the old galaxy, with all the stored knowledge of entire civilisations. I'd say that ups the ante! I'm not saying that 'Refuse' is my favoured end - it is horrible to contemplate a long defeat and the extinguishing of almost all sentient life. 'Control' tended to be my least worst option, personally. However, my contention is that 'Refuse' actually improves the story of Mass Effect Andromeda. I remember arguing previously (years ago on the old Bioware forums) that another choice - saving the Collector base at the end of ME:2 - actually improved the plot of ME:3 as it explained better the rise of Cerberus. This is regardless of the moral or pragmatic merits of the choice - it simply improved the story. Just thinking about the 'Refuse' ending evokes a feeling of dread in me, but I suppose that at least one can still argue that Sheppard saved the Milky Way races, by alerting the galaxy to the Reaper threat after ME:1 and thereby accelerating the progress of the Initiative. It could even be that the Andromeda colonists could return to the Milky Way one day and defeat the Reapers after all, utilising the information stored by Liara - again, all down to Sheppard's actions. If the Andromeda Initiative is the last hope of the Milky Way, the stakes couldn't be higher. Wouldn't you agree? So the individual lives of the people there don't matter in and of themselves?
I disagree. The universe does not need humans, asari, turian or whoever. The universe will go on just fine without them. The continuation of any species is irrelevant. The goal of the Milky Way species in ME3 was simple to live. In Andromeda it is the same biological imperative to survive. They are just people who want to survive. Nothing else will make that survival any more or less impactful.
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The Twilight God
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Post by The Twilight God on Apr 16, 2017 2:21:52 GMT
No. Refuse is a DLC only ending that the great majority of people who played ME3 have likely never seen. The people who post on official forums aren't representative of the average fan, they're representative of the most hardcore fans, a tiny minority of all people who played the game. Most people who completed the game probably moved on to other games after and didn't bother with DLC, and most of those that came back for the Extended Cut and other DLC probably didn't experiment and see every possible ending. I would not be surprised if the majority of Mass Effect fans do not even know the Refuse ending exists. Even if it wasn't a DLC ending that most players probably haven't seen, it is the worst possible ending to ME3. It is effectively the equivalent of a critical mission failure screen, except with cinematics and a voice over. In Refuse Shepard is a complete and utter failure, the Reapers win the war and destroy galactic civilization, and in the process kill every character that players came to know and love. Every known species in the Milky Way, with the exception of the Yahg, go extinct within that galaxy. Hardly anyone, with the exception of the tiny minority that are Refuse fans, would want that carried over to a sequel as the canon ending to ME3. Considering the backlash Bioware received over just the perception that Shepard didn't really win in the original endings, fans would not take too kindly to confirmation of that in a sequel. It would be literally doubling down on one of the aspects of the pre-EC endings that people hated most. Finally Refuse only exists to debunk the Indoctrination Theory. It had no other purpose beyond that. Refuse was the first ending I ever saw. The options were so stupid that I immediately thought, "This has to be a trick. Nah, I'm not doing any of these. Why would I listen to a Reaper. OK, where's the REAL choice?" But there was none. No curtains came up. I could not believe how badly Bioware done fuck it all up. I was disgusted and depressed. And that's with the EC. I can only imagine how horrible it must have been for people who beat it prior to the extended cut. I think I might have taken a trip up to Montreal and shot the place up.
Anyway, restarted and picked Destroy.
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Post by Soulforge on Apr 16, 2017 2:36:58 GMT
No, refuse wouldn't make anything better. As much as I love the speech/delivery from both Shepards, or shooting the Catalyst, it throws away everyone in the galaxy. Personally I think if Synthesis didn't exist, we wouldn't have had to even go to Andromeda in the first place. But it does, and we did.
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Post by The Twilight God on Apr 16, 2017 2:54:40 GMT
No, refuse wouldn't make anything better. As much as I love the speech/delivery from both Shepards, or shooting the Catalyst, it throws away everyone in the galaxy. Personally I think if Synthesis didn't exist, we wouldn't have had to even go to Andromeda in the first place. But it does, and we did. At the end of Andromeda story they establish a way back to the Milky Way. Bioware will return to the Milky Way. Then going forward it will be a multi-galactic game.
Mark.
My.
Words.
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Post by Guardian on Apr 16, 2017 3:06:58 GMT
No, refuse wouldn't make anything better. As much as I love the speech/delivery from both Shepards, or shooting the Catalyst, it throws away everyone in the galaxy. Personally I think if Synthesis didn't exist, we wouldn't have had to even go to Andromeda in the first place. But it does, and we did. This....this is I think is the problem to a point. I do think that if Synthesis/Refuse were removed, then staying in the Milky Way becomes a possibility. Ugh....Synthesis.....I remember it being implied that this was the "true" ending (meaning that it's the one Casey and Mac would have gone with).  Han (like myself) remembers those days on the old BSN. And he's right - this is the main reason why Refuse was even added. There were so many threads about how Shepard was indoctrinated because of the original horrible endings. So they put out Refuse to completely debunk the Indoctrination Theory. I don't need to add anything more because Han already said everything I would and more. |
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Post by Revan Reborn on Apr 16, 2017 3:09:08 GMT
Refuse is dumb. It's nice to have an additional option if you don't like the other three provided. However, the ending of ME3 has nothing to do with Andromeda. That was my Shepard's story, and he destroyed the Catalyst and ended the Reaper threat in the Milky Way. What's happening there now is irrelevant to the events of Andromeda. Lets keep it that way.
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Post by warlorejohn on Apr 16, 2017 6:30:48 GMT
Maybe the reapers got there oh say 400 years ago and the scourge destroyed them? They do have faster ftl, there final act was turning the scourge on it's creators.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 16, 2017 7:03:27 GMT
No. Refuse is a DLC only ending that the great majority of people who played ME3 have likely never seen. P Refuse was the first ending I ever saw. The options were so stupid that I immediately thought, "This has to be a trick. Nah, I'm not doing any of these. Why would I listen to a Reaper. OK, where's the REAL choice?" But there was none. No curtains came up. I could not believe how badly Bioware done fuck it all up. I was disgusted and depressed. And that's with the EC. I can only imagine how horrible it must have been for people who beat it prior to the extended cut. I think I might have taken a trip up to Montreal and shot the place up.
It wasn't any worse, really. Maybe even better since pre-EC you couldn't delude yourself into thinking that the situation wan't exactly what it said on the tin; use the Crucible or everyone dies. That's what you get for metagaming, I guess. |
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Post by lavigne on Apr 16, 2017 9:20:56 GMT
At the end of Andromeda story they establish a way back to the Milky Way. Bioware will return to the Milky Way. Then going forward it will be a multi-galactic game.
Mark.
My.
Words.
It might be interesting, over 1200 years could have passed back in the MW by the time the Initiative get back. For someone like the Asari that might be just one generation, but for other races, and the galactic community as a whole, it would be drastically different, and would possibly give scope for addressing all four endings if done properly. |
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Post by parsival on Apr 16, 2017 10:34:37 GMT
As an aside, I remember the first time I was presented with the standard three endings - my Shepard simply stumbled forwards, expecting to have to choose one of the three at the console. Instead, he triggered 'Synthesis' by mistakenly just walking towards the green option in the middle. Doh!
None of them were appealing to me as a player, or to my Shepard - 'Destroy' would kill the Geth (my allies) and EDI; 'Synthesis' would simply enact Saren's ambition from ME:1 and I'd been saying throughout the whole series that 'Control' was not an option - the Controller would become controlled.
I really think that, without knowing that this was the end of the game (which at a Metagame level as a player I did), my Shepard would have chosen 'Refuse', and sought to find another way, or die trying. In that way, it is the most honest response for my Shepard to make - if obviously a heart-rending one, because of the epilogue we are given.
In my own 'head canon', Shepard escapes the Citadel (probably rescued by Aria T'Loak as the Citadel arms open), and goes on to lead a long defeat for years, but with some notable destruction of Reaper resources along the way - possibly even Harbinger.
Getting back on topic though - of course, Bioware should not make any of the endings canon, which means that the Intitiative should never learn (in game) of what finally occurred in the Milky Way. However, as a player, the refuse ending - unhappy though it is - raises the stakes for the Andromeda Initiative, beyond the survival of the 200,000 colonists themselves, to the very continuation of their races. In the future, this enables their eventual return to the Milky Way and destruction of the Reapers.
It makes everything matter a lot more - far more than the other endings.
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Post by gplayer on Apr 16, 2017 12:56:20 GMT
Both the refuse and destroy choices are equal from an MEA point of view. Refuse means the cycle continues and you don't hear from them again. Destroy means that all the relays and advanced tech gets destroyed, so communication will not be restored for a very long time, certainly not Ryder's lifetime. So no need to canonize.
But the synthesis one is tricky. Essentially everyone is a hybrid, not unlike Ryder/SAM. But really, who picked that ending??
Just as a note, there is no way I can ever pick a refuse ending. It would mean everything I did leading up to it, including hours spent in the real world, was a complete waste of time and I would have been better off never touching MET.
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Post by The Twilight God on Apr 16, 2017 13:51:45 GMT
Both the refuse and destroy choices are equal from an MEA point of view. Refuse means the cycle continues and you don't hear from them again. Destroy means that all the relays and advanced tech gets destroyed, so communication will not be restored for a very long time, certainly not Ryder's lifetime. So no need to canonize. But the synthesis one is tricky. Essentially everyone is a hybrid, not unlike Ryder/SAM. But really, who picked that ending?? Just as a note, there is no way I can ever pick a refuse ending. It would mean everything I did leading up to it, including hours spent in the real world, was a complete waste of time and I would have been better off never touching MET. But all the advanced tech isn't destroyed. You see it's not destroyed in the ending. People don't seem to acknowledge this. The Kid lied. The ending contradicts his claims. But then again, they don't necessarily contradict because in the EC he basically says it will affect "technology you rely on", but doesn't elaborate how or what this effect is. But it says it's nothing we can't easily repair. So they took away all of the doom and gloom from the original ending, but people still hold on to it. It's one of the reasons I think they are going with Destroy as canon because they removed all the teeth from Destroy in the EC. It was narrowed down to just killing Reaper synthesized stuff (which sadly includes EDI) and break a relay. They'll probably claim that only the Sol relay actually exploded or some shit. |
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Post by gplayer on Apr 16, 2017 14:28:22 GMT
But all the advanced tech isn't destroyed. You see it's not destroyed in the ending. People don't seem to acknowledge this. The Kid lied. The ending contradicts his claims. But then again, they don't necessarily contradict because in the EC he basically says it will affect "technology you rely on", but doesn't elaborate how or what this effect is. But it says it's nothing we can't easily repair. So they took away all of the doom and gloom from the original ending, but people still hold on to it. It's one of the reasons I think they are going with Destroy as canon because they removed all the teeth from Destroy in the EC. It was narrowed down to just killing Reaper synthesized stuff (which sadly includes EDI) and break a relay. They'll probably claim that only the Sol relay actually exploded or some shit. Oh yeah. You're right, its been a while. But if I recall correctly the ending pic on Q-world (I cant even remember the name of the Quarian world) did not have any Geth in it, and they were not Reaper derived. So I assumed it meant all the advanced tech. |
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Post by LilTIM on Apr 16, 2017 14:33:13 GMT
My canon ME trilogy is that ME3 didn't happen because Shepard either died during the Arrival dlc, or was indoctrinated and the reapers used him as inside agent to betray everyone. Since EAware decide to move to a new galaxy, i always pressumed we're done with the old one and everyone there is pretty much done. May as well be dead and give them some closure.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 16, 2017 16:05:17 GMT
But all the advanced tech isn't destroyed. You see it's not destroyed in the ending. People don't seem to acknowledge this. The Kid lied. The ending contradicts his claims. But then again, they don't necessarily contradict because in the EC he basically says it will affect "technology you rely on", but doesn't elaborate how or what this effect is. But it says it's nothing we can't easily repair. So they took away all of the doom and gloom from the original ending, but people still hold on to it. It's one of the reasons I think they are going with Destroy as canon because they removed all the teeth from Destroy in the EC. It was narrowed down to just killing Reaper synthesized stuff (which sadly includes EDI) and break a relay. They'll probably claim that only the Sol relay actually exploded or some shit. Oh yeah. You're right, its been a while. But if I recall correctly the ending pic on Q-world (I cant even remember the name of the Quarian world) did not have any Geth in it, and they were not Reaper derived. So I assumed it meant all the advanced tech. The geth don't survive Rannoch without integrating Reaper code. If Shepard prevents the upgrade the quarians destroy the geth. And EDI incorporates Reaper tech too. We don't have any data on AIs with no Reaper tech. |
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Post by The Twilight God on Apr 16, 2017 17:07:28 GMT
But all the advanced tech isn't destroyed. You see it's not destroyed in the ending. People don't seem to acknowledge this. The Kid lied. The ending contradicts his claims. But then again, they don't necessarily contradict because in the EC he basically says it will affect "technology you rely on", but doesn't elaborate how or what this effect is. But it says it's nothing we can't easily repair. So they took away all of the doom and gloom from the original ending, but people still hold on to it. It's one of the reasons I think they are going with Destroy as canon because they removed all the teeth from Destroy in the EC. It was narrowed down to just killing Reaper synthesized stuff (which sadly includes EDI) and break a relay. They'll probably claim that only the Sol relay actually exploded or some shit. Oh yeah. You're right, its been a while. But if I recall correctly the ending pic on Q-world (I cant even remember the name of the Quarian world) did not have any Geth in it, and they were not Reaper derived. So I assumed it meant all the advanced tech. I never saw any volus or salarians either. Doesn't mean they all died. The thing is Bioware could have the Geth and you couldn't say they were wiped out because you never saw it and the ending itself (all the tech being OK) doesn't support Geth genocide. The Kid doesn't even imply it in the EC. It never specifies AI's. It just says "technology you rely on" and when you investigate it basically say tech in general citing Shepard's cybernetics. It also never states what the affect on tech would even be. It's very vague, and I believe, intentional misleading coming off of the original ending. They expect people to assume things because without the impression of an AI genocide nobody would ever pick Green or Blue. |
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Post by Seera1024 on Apr 16, 2017 18:00:29 GMT
Oh yeah. You're right, its been a while. But if I recall correctly the ending pic on Q-world (I cant even remember the name of the Quarian world) did not have any Geth in it, and they were not Reaper derived. So I assumed it meant all the advanced tech. I never saw any volus or salarians either. Doesn't mean they all died. The thing is Bioware could have the Geth and you couldn't say they were wiped out because you never saw it and the ending itself (all the tech being OK) doesn't support Geth genocide. The Kid doesn't even imply it in the EC. It never specifies AI's. It just says "technology you rely on" and when you investigate it basically say tech in general citing Shepard's cybernetics. It also never states what the affect on tech would even be. It's very vague, and I believe, intentional misleading coming off of the original ending. They expect people to assume things because without the impression of an AI genocide nobody would ever pick Green or Blue. It all depends on how the system figured out what was a Reaper and what wasn't. If what the thing chose was present in the Geth and/or EDI, those would have been affected by the Crucible. I don't recall seeing EDI in the final gathering on the Normandy to put (or not put) Shepard's name on the memorial wall, so there is at least some evidence that EDI may have been affected. |
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Post by gplayer on Apr 16, 2017 18:29:33 GMT
I never saw any volus or salarians either. Doesn't mean they all died. The thing is Bioware could have the Geth and you couldn't say they were wiped out because you never saw it and the ending itself (all the tech being OK) doesn't support Geth genocide. The Kid doesn't even imply it in the EC. It never specifies AI's. It just says "technology you rely on" and when you investigate it basically say tech in general citing Shepard's cybernetics. It also never states what the affect on tech would even be. It's very vague, and I believe, intentional misleading coming off of the original ending. They expect people to assume things because without the impression of an AI genocide nobody would ever pick Green or Blue. You know what one ending showed the Geth and Q's together on their homeworld, and one showed the Q's alone. I infered that the choice with the Q's alone was one without Geth. I don't know about Salarians or volus or Elcor but none of those are artificial life forms. I just know what I saw in the game and what I infered. The whole ending was so awful that had it not been years between MET and MEA, I would have never bought the latter. And no I wont get into a discussion why the ending was not awful and was secretly deep and profound. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2017 18:48:53 GMT
Considering the backlash Bioware received over just the perception that Shepard didn't really win in the original endings, fans would not take too kindly to confirmation of that in a sequel. It would be literally doubling down on one of the aspects of the pre-EC endings that people hated most. I know that I'm beating a dead horse by now, but the problems with the ending were much more than simply fans wanting a happy ending. Plenty of other games out there have bad endings, and yet none of them generated a backlash even close to ME:3.
I do agree with the rest however.
I do agree that there was a lot more behind the ending backlash than just problems with its tone (that ridiculous Catalyst reveal, for instance), but the tone of the original endings part of what angered fans. A lot of the complaints (mine included) were that the original endings implied that the galactic civilization Shepard had been trying to save for three game collapses in the end, making the victory over the Reapers seem somewhat pyrrhic. Sure, life goes on, but the game universe fans had come to know and love over the trilogy was effectively dead and gone. It made all the hours invested in those three games seem pointless. That was one of the primary things the Extended Cut changed. I love a good bittersweet ending and think Bioware had the right idea for the tone of ME3's ending, they just executed it very poorly. The bitter in bittersweet should have come from casualties in Shepard's inner circle during the end run, with the sweet coming from the galactic civilization fans were engrossed in, being saved from destruction. |
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Post by The Twilight God on Apr 16, 2017 19:04:39 GMT
I never saw any volus or salarians either. Doesn't mean they all died. The thing is Bioware could have the Geth and you couldn't say they were wiped out because you never saw it and the ending itself (all the tech being OK) doesn't support Geth genocide. The Kid doesn't even imply it in the EC. It never specifies AI's. It just says "technology you rely on" and when you investigate it basically say tech in general citing Shepard's cybernetics. It also never states what the affect on tech would even be. It's very vague, and I believe, intentional misleading coming off of the original ending. They expect people to assume things because without the impression of an AI genocide nobody would ever pick Green or Blue. It all depends on how the system figured out what was a Reaper and what wasn't. If what the thing chose was present in the Geth and/or EDI, those would have been affected by the Crucible. I don't recall seeing EDI in the final gathering on the Normandy to put (or not put) Shepard's name on the memorial wall, so there is at least some evidence that EDI may have been affected. EDI's name is on the wall because she is built from Sovereign. Patrick Weekes stated that that was the reason she died as originally they didn't plan for her to perish. The only things we see effected are husk and presumably the terminators inside the chuttleships as the ships themselves remain intact. This and the fact that it's a weapon designed to target Reapers leads me to the conclusion that the Crucible attacks synthesized matter. |
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Post by The Twilight God on Apr 16, 2017 19:22:56 GMT
I know that I'm beating a dead horse by now, but the problems with the ending were much more than simply fans wanting a happy ending. Plenty of other games out there have bad endings, and yet none of them generated a backlash even close to ME:3.
I do agree with the rest however.
I do agree that there was a lot more behind the ending backlash than just problems with its tone (that ridiculous Catalyst reveal, for instance), but the tone of the original endings part of what angered fans. A lot of the complaints (mine included) were that the original endings implied that the galactic civilization Shepard had been trying to save for three game collapses in the end, making the victory over the Reapers seem somewhat pyrrhic. Sure, life goes on, but the game universe fans had come to know and love over the trilogy was effectively dead and gone. It made all the hours invested in those three games seem pointless. That was one of the primary things the Extended Cut changed. I love a good bittersweet ending and think Bioware had the right idea for the tone of ME3's ending, they just executed it very poorly. The bitter in bittersweet should have come from casualties in Shepard's inner circle during the end run, with the sweet coming from the galactic civilization fans were engrossed in, being saved from destruction. Control would be OK if there was an established precedent for it. Like if Cerberus was actually seeing genuine success in their efforts and TIM had made his own device to interface with the Crucible. Synthesis would also be OK if say it was a Geth idea to humanize the Reapers and make organics like them to achieve peace. And if they are saved then they can make the necessary adjustments. If these idea were already floated around prior to the very end as viable and they weren't just thrown out of left field they'd be fine. Then at the end you could go in knowing the ins and out of the choices.
But the weren't floated around. Instead we have Control which we literally just denounced 5 minutes prior. And Synthesis which just sounds like everyone gets brainwashed and turned into a diffused Reaper. This all coming from a Reaper. Why all of a sudden Shepard would trust this Reaper outside of indoctrination makes no sense. If that's the case Shepard should have just given up on Virmire when Sovereign said he was eternal and infinite and there was no hope. In every other encounter his response to a Reaper is, "Shut up, liar. I decide my own fate". That's his response to Sovereign, Harbinger, the Rannoch Reaper and Indoctrinated TIM. In every case he's not drinking the cool-aid until the very end.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 16, 2017 21:08:52 GMT
Cerberus was having success with controlling husks.
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Post by kleindropper on Apr 16, 2017 21:28:01 GMT
My canon ME trilogy is that ME3 didn't happen because Shepard either died during the Arrival dlc, or was indoctrinated and the reapers used him as inside agent to betray everyone. Since EAware decide to move to a new galaxy, i always pressumed we're done with the old one and everyone there is pretty much done. May as well be dead and give them some closure. That is actually quite beautiful. Bioware would win a ton of fans back AND have Andromeda make some sense if they came out and confirmed the end of ME3 was the final battle for Shepard's mind per Indoctrination Theory (Extended Cut be damned). Shepard may have won his personal battle but the fall of the galaxy to the Reapers was inevitable, which gives the Initiative EXTREME importance. Perhaps the MW races even find some new allies and tech in Andromeda to go back to the MW and take on the Reapers at some point. I know, I know, it's a pipe dream. |
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Post by Guardian on Apr 16, 2017 21:39:31 GMT
I know that I'm beating a dead horse by now, but the problems with the ending were much more than simply fans wanting a happy ending. Plenty of other games out there have bad endings, and yet none of them generated a backlash even close to ME:3.
I do agree with the rest however.
I do agree that there was a lot more behind the ending backlash than just problems with its tone (that ridiculous Catalyst reveal, for instance), but the tone of the original endings part of what angered fans. A lot of the complaints (mine included) were that the original endings implied that the galactic civilization Shepard had been trying to save for three game collapses in the end, making the victory over the Reapers seem somewhat pyrrhic. Sure, life goes on, but the game universe fans had come to know and love over the trilogy was effectively dead and gone. It made all the hours invested in those three games seem pointless. That was one of the primary things the Extended Cut changed. I love a good bittersweet ending and think Bioware had the right idea for the tone of ME3's ending, they just executed it very poorly. The bitter in bittersweet should have come from casualties in Shepard's inner circle during the end run, with the sweet coming from the galactic civilization fans were engrossed in, being saved from destruction.Nail. On. The. Head. We had plenty of bittersweet moments during ME 3 inner circle-wise. We didn't need the giant middle finger from the ending. |
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by LogicGunn on Apr 16, 2017 22:41:40 GMT
I get where you're coming from, in a head cannon it would add a sense of urgency to the player. Not an ending I can go with, Shep was on a mission to destroy the reapers and no matter the journey she took, that's what she did.
It would be interesting to see the people who made it to Andromeda find about about the reaper threat and events after departure and for them to consider that they are the last members of the Milky Way species (whether true or not).
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