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Post by Kroitz on Apr 20, 2017 8:48:06 GMT
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Post by Ieldra on Apr 20, 2017 9:01:40 GMT
Honestly, it sounds like the game just had a troubled development cycle more so than anything else. Although at the end of the day ME:A is a AAA RPG, and if you're going to enter that ring then the current standard is The Witcher 3. All things in that get compared to it. It doesn't really matter what your budget, publisher, or development troubles were. There was a time when BioWare was the standard, and AAA RPGs got compared to their games. That's just how things are. Indeed, and I think TW3 deserves that just for its production quality. Design decisions - open world or not, customizable character or not, gender choice or not, party or single character, etc, etc. - can be contested but TW3 set a new standard for delivering such an amount of content at such a consistently high quality, and for patching things post-release where necessary in exemplary ways. You can dislike some of the game's features for existing; heck, the whole thing may not even be your kind of experience at all, but you have to concede regardless: those features that did exist were realized very well, and the whole came together in a kind of magic you see only rarely. It was done so well, in fact, that I didn't think it was possible at all before playing the game. I bought TW3 only late in 2016 because I didn't believe the hype and I was burned by TW2 which I couldn't finish, but the game *is* that good, for what it wants to be.
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Post by Geitenneuker on Apr 20, 2017 9:03:50 GMT
16 free DLCs, 2 amazing expansions that add up to 50 hours of gameplay...BW would never do that so in some sense, comparison is off.
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Post by Ieldra on Apr 20, 2017 9:10:32 GMT
Andromeda would have just needed a few more months before it would have been significantly better No, it needed a higher production quality to start with. Better writing, better scene design, and yes, better animation. The flaws are not of a kind that could've been fixed by polishing, except for the animations maybe, they exist because there was a lack of creativity in storytelling and inefficient production as well as the inability to include, within time and budget, some features I consider essential to an open-world-like game (see my other post above). You see a lot of potential in MEA. The conception of most elements was fine. The main plot is engaging, and the ending sequence was easily the best of any Bioware game of the last 10 years, including ME1. The same quests that came across as uninspiring or boring could've been good with better writing, more dynamism, interactivity with the world and better scene design. I don't know how much of a budget problem they had, maybe it's not possible to make a high-quality game with what they had, but they desperately need better writers, and writing itself shouldn't be among the expensive features.
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Post by Melcara on Apr 20, 2017 9:20:23 GMT
Please go read up on Duke Nukem Forever. You might change your mind on there being no point where it's publish or perish. You get more time the longer you hold off on announcing it. But once you announce it, you put a clock on when people will care enough about the game to get the costs back out of it. Without knowing how many times EA gave Bioware a deadline extension it's impossible to say who has the most blame for the faults not being gone at launch. It's probably a mixture. Bioware for not utilizing time well (took too long to realize the No Man's Sky route wasn't going to pan out) and EA for not giving enough time on the deadline extensions (underestimating how long it would take to fix bugs, didn't factor in the employees leaving, etc). There is a difference between a game that took 15 years to finish and was remade with multiple engine and a creator that went crazy over things, and take two did not own 3d realms like EA owns Bioware. So if EA wants the project to be finished they can go ahead and tell their employees to quick it up. They don,t have to sue 3d realms like take two had to do, these situations are completely different. MEA did have a troubled production but not to that point. Andromeda would have just needed a few more months before it would have been significantly better, hell 2 weeks and a half after that and this controversy with facial animation would have been much less big if the patch 1.05 was included from the beginning. And Ea could have easily taked that time. By the way announcment can be delayed, just like andromeda was at first announced for the end of 2016, it could have easily been delayed again, just like blizzard game did for years of pushing back the release date of their games. So no that,s certainly not a clock like you say it is. And from everything I know, EA only gave them ONE delay for MEA, it would have just needed one more and the game would not have been overshadowed by controversy. That is 100% EA decision to release it in this state, they are the publisher and the owner. EA are well-known for being corporate overlords and rushing games out too early. However, this does NOT apply in the case of ME:A. A 5 year development cycle is an absolute luxury for AAA games. EA let Bioware take their sweet time with this game. Also - and I've said this about 2 times already - EA actually offered to EXTEND development by 5-6 months. They were willing to give them an additional half a year. Bioware apparently deemed it unnecessary. I normally wouldn't say this, but this time, the blame is mostly on Bioware's shoulders. They knew their team's limitations, and they bit off far more than they could chew. The fact that they were able to fix the creepy eyes so quickly says a lot about their priorities during development. Hopefully they will learn from this, and not release a game in such a state again.
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Post by parnashwind on Apr 20, 2017 11:13:40 GMT
EA are well-known for being corporate overlords and rushing games out too early. However, this does NOT apply in the case of ME:A. A 5 year development cycle is an absolute luxury for AAA games. EA let Bioware take their sweet time with this game. Also - and I've said this about 2 times already - EA actually offered to EXTEND development by 5-6 months. They were willing to give them an additional half a year. Bioware apparently deemed it unnecessary. I normally wouldn't say this, but this time, the blame is mostly on Bioware's shoulders. They knew their team's limitations, and they bit off far more than they could chew. The fact that they were able to fix the creepy eyes so quickly says a lot about their priorities during development. Hopefully they will learn from this, and not release a game in such a state again. If that is true (I am not aware of this), then Bioware is pathetic to say the least. 5-6 months would put the launch of ME:A around October and if they can fix all the issues and polish the game, they would stand a better chance at winning awards - which translates to free publicity. Unless of course EA said, you can delay it but you wont get your bonuses this year.
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Post by wolfsite on Apr 20, 2017 11:31:15 GMT
Using United isn't really a proper example as it is comparing an entertainment product you have a choice to buy or not buy to being forceably removed from a plane against your will along with getting badly injured. EA have shown vast improvements in the last 6 months, Titanfall 2 has no Season pass and tons of free DLC. Star Wars Battlefront 2 is shaping up to be the game that the first one should have been which shows they are listening to the fans (plus the Season Pas may be left out here as well). EA has released tons of free games and DLC overthe past year but no one talks about it because they keep talking about what happenned 2-3 even 5 years ago. Which enforces the negative trope despite the fact that they are doing some positive decisions. The On the House Program they have has given out plenty of free games and DLC with no need to buy anything. The Origin/EA Access program has actually turned into a rather affordable program to get access to a lot of games ($30 for the year (when I got it) is honestly a really good deal for the amount of content that is offered. Hell many people are upset with Sony that they didn't agree to offer the program and other companies are looking into emulating it. Hell look at things with the patches for Andromeda. People are shitting on them because the patches weren't out 2 days ago but if they rush the patch out it could cause other problems which then people will just be "why the hell did you rush the patch?" despite the fact that is what the fans wanted them to do. and people are being cautious with some decisions that CDPR and GOG have been making that past few months. Many people are not happy with the GOG Galaxy Client as it may lead them to introduce a form of DRM (there were some instances were games could only be downloaded or updated in Galaxy, some people may have over-reacted but it is something to think about) this is not my thoughts on Galaxy as you do need some form of client for the Multi player components of some games. I myself am seeing people treating CDPR the way they treated Valve. they just looked the other way when Valve started doing some questionable decisions and attacked people who tried to criticize and now we have a company that open teaes there fan base with a game that will never see the light of day and an online store that is overflowing with poor quality games and asset flips for quick money and an economy based selling and reselling digital items like hats and cards and trying to turn player created content into a paid service that publishers can profit on while the fan's do all the work. Also I don't follow people on social media as it is easy for someone to react without thinking, there have been many a time where someone hit that send button and then instantly regretted it. we are human and humans can do stupid things, social media just unfairly amplifies that. You cannot force your level of tolerance onto others. Objective fact is, many got burnt in the past. EA maybe trying to do something but each individual will decide if it is good enough. If the majority dont think it is good enough then they have 2 choices: 1. Like you say stop doing anything. 2. Do better. You think that EA Access is great, I dont. DAI for example, you can play the base game but not the DLC, just cheap promotion. Why do I need EA access to play/test ME:A? You think it is okay, I think it is not because their reputation is already dirt and they need all the positive publicity. You are very forgiving and you are clearly a fan of EA/Bioware. Objectively, they get no praises from me for fixing things that should not have been broken before launch. They owe me and they are still owing me because still tons of glitches/bugs that needs fixed. I have never used or need the gog client so I wont comment on that. As for the final part, I suspect you are talking about my comments about Ian Frazier. No, he equated criticism to "gut punch" and said he does not like it in an interview. He never acknowledge the faults. Am I to believe that nobody in Bioware saw all the glitches? 5 years and I am to believe that many of the visual issues are not seen? Glitches and crashes that plagues me I am more forgiving because I know that Bioware Montreal is a B rate studio that is inexperience and incompetent. Just say: My team sux and we are working hard to make things right. You dont see similarities between United and EA/Bioware. Yes, their actions/industry/circumstances are different but the core of the issue is that corporation like these do not respect their customers. They forgot that the customers feed them, their spouse, their children and their dogs and cats too. What difference is Ian Frazier from Oscar Munoz? Both screwed up and instead of coming out and apologize straight away, they try to deflect the problem. I can understand that some being forgiving. Unfortunately, the industry/critics/players as a whole is not. Just look at the review scores. Nobody will cut EA/Bioware any slack anymore. They either deliver excellence or continue to be grilled. People will put everything they do under a microscope and grill them for anything they can find. That is the objective fact. For me, if EA wants to redeem themselves, make a great game at the expense of their profit and throw their stupid company rules (ie, every EA game needs to use Frostbite, needs MP etc) away. Then I will wipe the past clean and assess them afresh. I'm not trying to "Force anything", I'm merely stating that EA has made some good decisions in the past few months but people are choosing to ignore those decisions to continue to dogpile hate on them. Also who said I was forgiving? Having a different experience and expectation than you does not mean I am forgiving (No SP in the first Battlefront and Titanfall was a poor choice on EA's part which they have thankfully remedied) so please don't just shoe horn me into a category to fit your argument better. Also please do not use the word objective and then contradict it with your bias opinion. Frostbite is actually a good engine when used properly, it comes down to the development team if they are able to use it (DICE games really look amazing in the engine), and just because you feel every game doesn't need MP doesn't mean everyone shares that feeling as many people got the game for the MP and really enjoyed the MP since it was added to the series, though I do agree with others that the MP should not affect the SP content.
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stysiaq
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Post by stysiaq on Apr 20, 2017 12:06:42 GMT
Since games don't exist in a vacuum, what are the other modern RPG games I should compare ME:A with to assess it's quality? Or maybe I shouldn't compare ME:A to TW3 solely because people who want to enjoy ME:A will feel better about the product they bought if a superior game is never brought up?
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Post by FeralEwok on Apr 20, 2017 12:17:35 GMT
At the least I doubt Mac Walters will lead another project at EA. Shaaa sshha shhhh shhh shhhhhh Don't jinx it. (Why they gave him the keys to franchise after being involved with the ME3 ending is beyond me...well accept for the possibility they didn't think people cared enough to remember who actually writes these games)
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Post by dazzarlok on Apr 20, 2017 12:32:21 GMT
I feel like if ME:A had ended up being "better" than the Witcher 3, everyone would be singing a different tune Yeah, but seriously though, as much as I hate EA, I'm hesitant to put too much blame on them for ME:A issues. This game had 5 years worth of development time, it was already delayed once back in 2016 when it was originally supposed to release, and EA said they'd have been willing to delay the game by another 5 months or so if Bioware had asked. Maybe if Bioware hadn't been trying to make their game like No Man's Sky for a good year of the development time, they would have been able to put that money and time into things that really needed it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2017 12:44:24 GMT
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Post by Melcara on Apr 20, 2017 13:44:53 GMT
EA are well-known for being corporate overlords and rushing games out too early. However, this does NOT apply in the case of ME:A. A 5 year development cycle is an absolute luxury for AAA games. EA let Bioware take their sweet time with this game. Also - and I've said this about 2 times already - EA actually offered to EXTEND development by 5-6 months. They were willing to give them an additional half a year. Bioware apparently deemed it unnecessary. I normally wouldn't say this, but this time, the blame is mostly on Bioware's shoulders. They knew their team's limitations, and they bit off far more than they could chew. The fact that they were able to fix the creepy eyes so quickly says a lot about their priorities during development. Hopefully they will learn from this, and not release a game in such a state again. If that is true (I am not aware of this), then Bioware is pathetic to say the least. 5-6 months would put the launch of ME:A around October and if they can fix all the issues and polish the game, they would stand a better chance at winning awards - which translates to free publicity. Unless of course EA said, you can delay it but you wont get your bonuses this year. www.google.com/amp/s/www.gamespot.com/amp-articles/ea-says-it-would-delay-mass-effect-andromeda-again/1100-6445017/"If the gameplay is not where BioWare wants it to be, the developer could delay it with EA's blessing. The delay could be a week, or it could be "three or four or five months" if need be, Jorgensen said." But if EA threatened to take away their bonuses, then it's definitely more understandable
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Post by DoctorFox on Apr 20, 2017 13:52:25 GMT
I know blaming EA is the popular thing to do, and they certainly deserve a lot of it, but BioWare isn't exactly entirely free of being at fault here. They had 5 years to make this game and they do actually have plenty of say on the game. EA may be able to decide not to delay it, but it's not like they have a guy sitting there telling every BioWare employee precisely what needs to go into the game. Even then my understanding is that BioWare goes to EA and says "We need this much money and this much time to make this game" and EA either green lights it or says no at which point they either scrap the project or negotiate. BioWare knew full well what budget and timeframe they had to work with going in, and they attempted to make something on this scale with it. Honestly, it sounds like the game just had a troubled development cycle more so than anything else. Although at the end of the day ME:A is a AAA RPG, and if you're going to enter that ring then the current standard is The Witcher 3. All things in that get compared to it. It doesn't really matter what your budget, publisher, or development troubles were. There was a time when BioWare was the standard, and AAA RPGs got compared to their games. That's just how things are. If there were no stuttering bugs, a better character creator and human-looking facial animations, i think this game would have been received much more positively. In my eyes, those are the only things that are killing the fun. The story is decent, the combat is fun, the script between characters could have been a little more finessed but other than that, it's good. And DLC will make it even better.
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Post by aglomeracja on Apr 20, 2017 13:56:25 GMT
Yeah, after TW3's release you could find there plenty of threads comparing it to MET...
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Post by Steelcan on Apr 20, 2017 13:58:56 GMT
are you just insecure to comparisons between the two games? Its perfectly valid to compare BioWare's games with other flagship series that offer similar experiences.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2017 14:02:33 GMT
are you just insecure to comparisons between the two games? Its perfectly valid to compare BioWare's games with other flagship series that offer similar experiences. It's valid to comparem but if people mostly want to talk about the Witcher, Witcher forum is kindda better than Andromeda's.
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Post by Steelcan on Apr 20, 2017 14:06:01 GMT
are you just insecure to comparisons between the two games? Its perfectly valid to compare BioWare's games with other flagship series that offer similar experiences. It's valid to comparem but if people mostly want to talk about the Witcher, Witcher forum is kindda better than Andromeda's. Nobody here is seriously hijacking threads to discuss the Witcher in isolation from BioWare games
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Post by kotoreffect3 on Apr 20, 2017 14:21:46 GMT
I want the comparison to stop as well mainly because the Witcher formula is not a damn one size fits all for everything and some of their fans (usually the ex bioware fans) act like fanatical cultists.
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Post by malgus on Apr 20, 2017 15:14:26 GMT
There is a difference between a game that took 15 years to finish and was remade with multiple engine and a creator that went crazy over things, and take two did not own 3d realms like EA owns Bioware. So if EA wants the project to be finished they can go ahead and tell their employees to quick it up. They don,t have to sue 3d realms like take two had to do, these situations are completely different. MEA did have a troubled production but not to that point. Andromeda would have just needed a few more months before it would have been significantly better, hell 2 weeks and a half after that and this controversy with facial animation would have been much less big if the patch 1.05 was included from the beginning. And Ea could have easily taked that time. By the way announcment can be delayed, just like andromeda was at first announced for the end of 2016, it could have easily been delayed again, just like blizzard game did for years of pushing back the release date of their games. So no that,s certainly not a clock like you say it is. And from everything I know, EA only gave them ONE delay for MEA, it would have just needed one more and the game would not have been overshadowed by controversy. That is 100% EA decision to release it in this state, they are the publisher and the owner. EA are well-known for being corporate overlords and rushing games out too early. However, this does NOT apply in the case of ME:A. A 5 year development cycle is an absolute luxury for AAA games. EA let Bioware take their sweet time with this game. Also - and I've said this about 2 times already - EA actually offered to EXTEND development by 5-6 months. They were willing to give them an additional half a year. Bioware apparently deemed it unnecessary. I normally wouldn't say this, but this time, the blame is mostly on Bioware's shoulders. They knew their team's limitations, and they bit off far more than they could chew. The fact that they were able to fix the creepy eyes so quickly says a lot about their priorities during development. Hopefully they will learn from this, and not release a game in such a state again. And where did you see that EA actually offer bioware more time? By the way EA's words does not mean shit, even if they say they did it, they are known liars and the words of liars are not to be trusted. They said they were sorry for Sim city 2013, that they would not do this again, but what happen at the end of the same year 2013? oh yeah battlefield 4 happen and the release was a mess. Its not because a company say something that it is actually true.
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Post by malgus on Apr 20, 2017 15:28:47 GMT
It's not that simple. Time is money and more development and polish means more money to pay the studio to continue working. The game would have just been over-budget and by not releasing the game at the end of EA's fiscal year would have led to a financial loss for EA. Delaying isn't always a practical option, and oftentimes it's simply not an option at all. MEA was delayed as much as it conceivably could be without pushing it outside of its projected fiscal year. BioWare had far more time than most to make this game. Due to BioWare's legacy, EA gives BioWare a lot of leniency in terms of how they develop video games. The same courtesy isn't shown to other studios, such as DICE and Visceral Games (look at Battlefield 4 and Dead Space 3). Truth be told, BioWare's the one largely at fault for MEA's shortcomings. Five years is more time than most studios ever get on a game (only Blizzard, Rockstar, Irrational Games, and a few others have that luxury of development time). For whatever reason, BioWare failed to make the game as solid as it should have been at release. That's not to say it's a buggy, unplayable mess like some games at launch. MEA is certainly playable. However, the point remains that there are still lingering issues that BioWare still has yet to address. Game development is hard and very few studios are fortunate enough to have the time they need to make truly exceptional experiences. MEA is a very fun game, but it's those glaring issues that really takes wind out of it's sails and undermines the whole experience. Well that means that EA should have putted a bit more money into the production to make sure the products is done well, that's not the problem of the consumer what happen behind the scene, that is the problem of the publisher to make sure the game is ready when the launch happens. It was also the smart thing to do, because right now, many people are going to be scared of buying mass effect andromeda since a lot of them only judge with metacritics score, and right now the game has been overshadowed by controversy. which means that the games is going to sell less than it should because it was decided to be released it immediatly. The game is going to make less money because of that, its going to make WAY less cash on the long run no matter how many patches happen, the score will stay the same because the review are not going to be updated after patches. So yeah, EA might have decided to release the game immediatly to make an immediate quick buck on their investment but that was an idiot move. A very stupid one. And from What I know, the fiscal year in united states ends on september 30, so yeah they could have easily push it back and still make it for the fiscal year.
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Post by linksocarina on Apr 20, 2017 15:30:43 GMT
Andromeda would have just needed a few more months before it would have been significantly better No, it needed a higher production quality to start with. Better writing, better scene design, and yes, better animation. The flaws are not of a kind that could've been fixed by polishing, except for the animations maybe, they exist because there was a lack of creativity in storytelling and inefficient production as well as the inability to include, within time and budget, some features I consider essential to an open-world-like game (see my other post above). You see a lot of potential in MEA. The conception of most elements was fine. The main plot is engaging, and the ending sequence was easily the best of any Bioware game of the last 10 years, including ME1. The same quests that came across as uninspiring or boring could've been good with better writing, more dynamism, interactivity with the world and better scene design. I don't know how much of a budget problem they had, maybe it's not possible to make a high-quality game with what they had, but they desperately need better writers, and writing itself shouldn't be among the expensive features. The big problem is none of you define what better writing or interactivity means. I read an article on Kotaku recently that compared some things from both games...and the author boiled down the issue to a lack of self-awareness of the cliches on the part of Mass Effect compared to Witcher, and the Witcher providing a glut more information in incedental sections (journals, scanning comments, etc) I think that is a legitimate issue, but not a game killing one, as the question of it being good writing or not is still undefined here. Is a self-awareness of the cliches a good thing? Do we need tons of expositional dialogue even if it amounts to a joke? Is the more dry approach of SAM really boring? Until that can be answered...the accusations people give are ultimately hollow because there seems to be no real consensus as to what the problem really is with ANYTHING about the game, save animation issues. Did the optimistic earnestness turn people off after 30 hours of "were going to die" in Mass Effect 3? Is the tone too drastically different? Is it really incidental dialogue which was never BioWare's strong suit in the first place? What's the real problem...
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Melcara
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Melcara on Apr 20, 2017 16:56:22 GMT
EA are well-known for being corporate overlords and rushing games out too early. However, this does NOT apply in the case of ME:A. A 5 year development cycle is an absolute luxury for AAA games. EA let Bioware take their sweet time with this game. Also - and I've said this about 2 times already - EA actually offered to EXTEND development by 5-6 months. They were willing to give them an additional half a year. Bioware apparently deemed it unnecessary. I normally wouldn't say this, but this time, the blame is mostly on Bioware's shoulders. They knew their team's limitations, and they bit off far more than they could chew. The fact that they were able to fix the creepy eyes so quickly says a lot about their priorities during development. Hopefully they will learn from this, and not release a game in such a state again. And where did you see that EA actually offer bioware more time? By the way EA's words does not mean shit, even if they say they did it, they are known liars and the words of liars are not to be trusted. They said they were sorry for Sim city 2013, that they would not do this again, but what happen at the end of the same year 2013? oh yeah battlefield 4 happen and the release was a mess. Its not because a company say something that it is actually true. www.google.com/amp/s/www.gamespot.com/amp-articles/ea-says-it-would-delay-mass-effect-andromeda-again/1100-6445017/If you scrolled up, you would have seen it.
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malgus
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Post by malgus on Apr 20, 2017 17:05:33 GMT
And where did you see that EA actually offer bioware more time? By the way EA's words does not mean shit, even if they say they did it, they are known liars and the words of liars are not to be trusted. They said they were sorry for Sim city 2013, that they would not do this again, but what happen at the end of the same year 2013? oh yeah battlefield 4 happen and the release was a mess. Its not because a company say something that it is actually true. www.google.com/amp/s/www.gamespot.com/amp-articles/ea-says-it-would-delay-mass-effect-andromeda-again/1100-6445017/If you scrolled up, you would have seen it. And as I said, that links means absolutely nothing because EA are known liars, they have said the same thing for sim city, that they were sorry for the release and that they would not that again, and the same year they release battlefield 4 in an unifnished states. So no that links you just gave me proves absolutely NOTHING, its EA's words, Microsoft also said at some point that DRM could not be removed from the xbox one that it was built with it, well we know how much true that was : www.dualshockers.com/2013/06/21/major-nelson-rebrands-himself-as-switch-flipper-after-xbox-one-drm-about-face/So no sorry but that links proves absolutely nothing, EA's words don't mean shit and that is pretty much the same for a lot of triple a companies.
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piratesnugglecakes
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My oven mitt is too small.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by piratesnugglecakes on Apr 20, 2017 17:23:47 GMT
The key problems of Andromeda have nothing to do with its 5 years development time. Amen. And I will compare ME:A and The Witcher III; hell, I will compare ME:A to the first Witcher game, before they fixed it with the enhanced edition. The story in the first Witcher game; the dodgy translation in some of the writing and it still had a better story than ME:A did. Gaming is my hobby. I play a lot of RPG's ergo I am going to compare them. And ME:A is not doing very well in the writing or character department.
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Rivercurse
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Hey Conrad, I slept with your sister.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Rivercurse on Apr 20, 2017 17:26:26 GMT
CDPR is an independent studio who can freely decide when the game is good to Launch while bioware is EA games'bitch doing whatever they tell them and releasing the game when the boss wants They had 5 years. FIVE years, before their hand was forced.
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