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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 20, 2017 22:14:54 GMT
This is not about Geralt vs BioWare heroes. It's about the fact that BioWare's stories, game-design etc. all hinder their custom-made heroes to be either good as characters or be stuck in interesting overarching plots. I'll always like the BioWare hero more I think but I just can't bring myself to say I think Inquisitor was better than Geralt or Ryder is least of all because their respective stories are really bad. I don't see how Ryder's story is bad outside of the kett and how it starts. It's very generic. He doesn't grow as a person. He gets stronger because of SAM and leveling up and he kicks ass with a wry smile throughout the entire thing. The only personal stake in it and only sign of humanity comes from his family subplot which happens on the sidelines.
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It's just a game, folks...
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Post by timebean on Apr 20, 2017 22:15:04 GMT
A very 'meh' article.
In each and every Bioware game, we are the person who is able to solve everyone else's problems. It is their basic formula of "special thing" + "cool ability" + "meaningful title" = save everyone's asses.
DAO character = special melding with darkspawn blood, ability to kill dark-spawn, title of Grey Warden means respect from NPCs --> kill dragon, save world
DAI character = special melding with magic, ability to close rifts, title of Inquisitor means people creepily worship you --> kill Cory-fish, save world
MET character = special message from prothean device, ability to kick major ass as an N7 AND special ship, title of Spectre means you do whatever the hell you want --> deal with Reapers, save galaxy
MEA character = special melding with SAM, ability to interact with remnant tech, title of Pathfinder means resources thrown at you --> unlock Meridian, save galaxy
Sorry, but I don't see how MEA has fundamentally deviated from that formula. The execution may be a bit bland, but it is still the same old rinse and repeat, imo.
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Post by ProbeAway on Apr 20, 2017 22:15:58 GMT
But they can't do that in the first game and it's not like it's not part of the plot already. people who say it refutes history for get that what happened with the native Americans took time. the colonist did not just jump out the boat and then started to talk over. it started out as a good relationship. both sides helping one another till one took advantage of the other. and that took time, I would not expect this till later squeal to the game. Added with the fact that they all come from a galaxy where most of the species learn to coexist already and the Argarians are equally as advance as the milkyway races. It would be impossible for the milky way races to start taking out the argarian like the settlers did with the native american. Added with the fact the the kett are doing that anyway already and some place having colonist doing that already like with Kajara. Everytime people give this complaint i wonder if they really did understand what happened with the Indians vs the colonist and why it happened and how long that it actually took to happen. what happened with the native Americans took time. the colonist did not just jump out the boat and then started to talk over. it started out as a good relationship. both sides helping one another till one took advantage of the other.What? Where did you learn history? Wow. South America colonization? North American colonization of the West? Caribbean Islands? Australia's Pygmy? Before that two millenium of slave trading before the new world even was first looked upon by Europeans? Things went to hell fast for some and took longer with others, but what you're saying is just another sorry excuse. Horrible. If you're going to criticise someone's knowledge of history, maybe don't start saying things like 'Australia's Pygmy'. Seriously, WTF?!?!?
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Post by vonuber on Apr 20, 2017 22:21:23 GMT
The article says Shepard is an underdog? This is power fantasy extraordinaire Shepard we are talking about, yes? The one who literally comes back from the dead after re-entering from orbit and smacking into a planet? The one who is basically an impossibly powerful cybernetic killing machine / diplomat/ motivator / messiah? The one who can literally wipe out entire species with a single decision?
That underdog?
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Post by timebean on Apr 20, 2017 22:23:16 GMT
The article says Shepard is an underdog? This is power fantasy extraordinaire Shepard we are talking about, yes? The one who literally comes back from the dead after re-entering from orbit and smacking into a planet? The one who is basically an impossibly powerful cybernetic killing machine / diplomat/ motivator / messiah? The one who can literally wipe out entire species with a single decision? That underdog? Perhaps referring to his dancing ability?
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Uncle Cyan
Dang it.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Apr 20, 2017 22:45:56 GMT
what happened with the native Americans took time. the colonist did not just jump out the boat and then started to talk over. it started out as a good relationship. both sides helping one another till one took advantage of the other.What? Where did you learn history? Wow. South America colonization? North American colonization of the West? Caribbean Islands? Australia's Pygmy? Before that two millenium of slave trading before the new world even was first looked upon by Europeans? Things went to hell fast for some and took longer with others, but what you're saying is just another sorry excuse. Horrible. If you're going to criticise someone's knowledge of history, maybe don't start saying things like 'Australia's Pygmy'. Seriously, WTF?!?!? woops. I got carried away. Thank you. I'll edit. And by the way: quadrant.org.au/opinion/history-wars/2002/06/the-extinction-of-the-australian-pygmies/and this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmy_peoplesSo, yeah... seriously, WTF?!?
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Post by Iakus on Apr 20, 2017 22:50:47 GMT
Remotely related, but: Didn't Bioware say they didn't want the players to treat the Kett as just the bad guys, but actually feel empathy for them? I didn't. Someone did? I...guess we're supposed to feel sorry for the Kett because they are made up of a lot of aliens that were exalted against their will. I guess. I guess we're supposed to feel sorry for them the same way Shepard feels bad for the COllectors: That took all of two seconds: "Aww, how sad. Well, time to get back to shooting them!
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Post by dreman999 on Apr 20, 2017 22:56:16 GMT
I don't see how Ryder's story is bad outside of the kett and how it starts. It's very generic. He doesn't grow as a person. He gets stronger because of SAM and leveling up and he kicks ass with a wry smile throughout the entire thing. The only personal stake in it and only sign of humanity comes from his family subplot which happens on the sidelines. Aren't you in control with how Ryder grows as a person? Can't you say the same thing as Shepard and their cybernetic implants and character? And you do have moment to grow Ryder as a character like with the protest on the Nexus and learning more about the motives of there father. Added, everything that allowed Shepard to grow as a person happen in side content.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 20, 2017 23:07:30 GMT
From Hawke to Inquisitor and now this, (Shepard is kinda okay), I just don't think any of these criticisms are useful. BioWare has an ineptitude for learning. They'll always say "we're listening" but then they address the problem while adding two new ones. At this point I just think they should keep doing what they're doing and accept that their time has come and gone as the "Kings of storytellers" or whatever it is the journalists used to call them. huh? You say they don't learn...then you say they adress their problems. And making new mistakes isn't not learning. It tends to be the way of the universe. You take time to learn and adress flaws and that takes your attention away from other things. For me BW has taken my three big criticisms from DA I and learned from them. They are either eliminated entirely or greatly reduced. And there is strong indication they have learned from the third one too.
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Post by joglee on Apr 20, 2017 23:14:26 GMT
Remotely related, but: Didn't Bioware say they didn't want the players to treat the Kett as just the bad guys, but for us to actually feel empathy for them? I didn't. Anyone did? I did. The Archon went against orders. Sealed off communication from his superiors and forced his soldiers to do things they normally wouldn't want to, all in an attempt to control the Remnant. That must suck
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Post by dreman999 on Apr 20, 2017 23:16:52 GMT
The only part of the plot I did not like is about the story is the kett. Everytime they start to be interesting they turn into self indulgent imperialistic manafest destany assholes. And the reveal made me roll my eyes.THEY LITERALLY THE ORGANIC VERSIONS OF THE BORG. I just made me feel more sorry for the argarians.
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Uncle Cyan
Dang it.
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Apr 20, 2017 23:21:32 GMT
From Hawke to Inquisitor and now this, (Shepard is kinda okay), I just don't think any of these criticisms are useful. BioWare has an ineptitude for learning. They'll always say "we're listening" but then they address the problem while adding two new ones. At this point I just think they should keep doing what they're doing and accept that their time has come and gone as the "Kings of storytellers" or whatever it is the journalists used to call them. huh? You say they don't learn...then you say they adress their problems. And making new mistakes isn't not learning. It tends to be the way of the universe. You take time to learn and adress flaws and that takes your attention away from other things. For me BW has taken my three big criticisms from DA I and learned from them. They are either eliminated entirely or greatly reduced. And there is strong indication they have learned from the third one too. I disagree Colfoley. They will come to their conclusion with or without us. That's how it is. They don't learn anything. They just adapt and try something different hoping to make the deadline. They're not learning anything game-related. They're busy trying to make DICE's Frostbite engine act something to akin of an RPG. Are they getting closer to getting it to work that way? YES. I believe that. Do I think they're having to re-think their voice acting and plotline mechanics? No. Not unless EA tells them otherwise. They stopped listening to their fanbase because they don't care. Closing down the forums only proves that to me. How they pissed on me, personally, during Inquisition's patch-testing in March, proves that. They only pay lip service to us and that's how it is. I don't like it, but that's the reality of the company that is Bioware now. They're great storytellers, but to pass on that vision, you need everyone on board rowing the boat at the same time. To me, they're floundering, but there are hints that may be getting traction and ready to set sail again. Andromeda was a garbage and insulting release on all platforms. Inquisition was a hot mess for the PC port. They don't learn, they just obey whatever cheap-saving plan is put in front of them. However, Bioware isn't the only source of RPG greatness. There are plenty of former Bioware employees who want to shove their genitals into the faces of Aaryn Flynn and EA's brilliant studio-destroying faction.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2017 23:49:07 GMT
Remotely related, but: Didn't Bioware say they didn't want the players to treat the Kett as just the bad guys, but for us to actually feel empathy for them? I didn't. Anyone did? I was waiting for a moment that they'd be humanized as well, for lack of a better word. It never came. Kett spoilers... I guess the devs were referring to the fact that the Kett need exaltation to reproduce?
If so, I think Bioware needs to rethink what makes villains slightly sympathetic. Because no, that does not work. That wasn't nature at work, the Kett did that to themselves through genetic engineering. They're basically organic Borg.
The Kett either need to fix that little problem so they can once again reproduce naturally, or they can go join the Dodo and Woolly Mammoth in Extinctionville. Because fuck them.
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It's just a game, folks...
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Post by timebean on Apr 20, 2017 23:58:26 GMT
Remotely related, but: Didn't Bioware say they didn't want the players to treat the Kett as just the bad guys, but for us to actually feel empathy for them? I didn't. Anyone did? I was waiting for a moment that they'd be humanized as well, for lack of a better word. It never came. Kett spoilers... I guess the devs were referring to the fact that the Kett need exaltation to reproduce?
If so, I think Bioware needs to rethink what makes villains slightly sympathetic. Because no, that does not work. That wasn't nature at work, the Kett did that to themselves through genetic engineering. They're basically organic Borg.
The Kett either need to fix that little problem so they can once again reproduce naturally, or they can go join the Dodo and Woolly Mammoth in Extinctionville. Because fuck them. Everything in your spoiler? 100% agree!
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 20, 2017 23:58:59 GMT
Remotely related, but: Didn't Bioware say they didn't want the players to treat the Kett as just the bad guys, but for us to actually feel empathy for them? I didn't. Anyone did? I was waiting for a moment that they'd be humanized as well, for lack of a better word. It never came. Kett spoilers... I guess the devs were referring to the fact that the Kett need exaltation to reproduce?
If so, I think Bioware needs to rethink what makes villains slightly sympathetic. Because no, that does not work. That wasn't nature at work, the Kett did that to themselves through genetic engineering. They're basically organic Borg.
The Kett either need to fix that little problem so they can once again reproduce naturally, or they can go join the Dodo and Woolly Mammoth in Extinctionville. Because fuck them. Well, it doesn't have to be "naturally", but rather something similar to how Okeer created Grunt, or sort of like how the Kryptonians reproduced in Man of Steel, where they basically grow new people from a genetic codex, essentially freeing them from the directive to "exalt" other species.
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Post by zipzap2000 on Apr 21, 2017 0:00:06 GMT
Remotely related, but: Didn't Bioware say they didn't want the players to treat the Kett as just the bad guys, but for us to actually feel empathy for them? I didn't. Anyone did? "The Archon has kept us here for decades, he obsesses over the remnant and keeps us from home." Yeah, well your evil death cult's worse than the ones we come up with in the milky way. So, fuck your feelings Primus.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2017 0:05:16 GMT
I was waiting for a moment that they'd be humanized as well, for lack of a better word. It never came. Kett spoilers... I guess the devs were referring to the fact that the Kett need exaltation to reproduce?
If so, I think Bioware needs to rethink what makes villains slightly sympathetic. Because no, that does not work. That wasn't nature at work, the Kett did that to themselves through genetic engineering. They're basically organic Borg.
The Kett either need to fix that little problem so they can once again reproduce naturally, or they can go join the Dodo and Woolly Mammoth in Extinctionville. Because fuck them. Well, it doesn't have to be "naturally", but rather something similar to how Okeer created Grunt, or sort of like how the Kryptonians reproduced in Man of Steel, where they basically grow new people from a genetic codex, essentially freeing them from the directive to "exalt" other species. True. Anything that allows their species to survive without needing to go to war with other species to take captives to turn into Kett, against their will.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Mihura on Apr 21, 2017 0:11:32 GMT
Remotely related, but: Didn't Bioware say they didn't want the players to treat the Kett as just the bad guys, but for us to actually feel empathy for them? I didn't. Anyone did? That is why we should have a Kett companion and not a Jaal. We see them from the outside and the main villain is no Arishok, there is no emotional connection. Actually now that I think of it, the last bioware game that actually made me cry and laugh really hard was DA2/ME3, well let us be real those were the only emotional ones. The most recent was TW3.
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Burninating the thatched roof cottages.
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Post by Pyrceval78 on Apr 21, 2017 1:01:02 GMT
I've been thinking about this for a bit, and I think yes referencing Shep as an underdog isnt quite accurate, no, but the real difference between the characters I feel is the 'Chosen One' trope.
Ryder, thanks to SAM, falls right in to the Chosen One archetype. Now, there is nothing wrong with the Chosen One archetype per se, its certainly used in many a popular fiction. Everything from Luke Skywalker, to Jesus, to King Arthur to the Matrix uses that archetype. Ryder is a 'Chosen One'.
Shepard did not come across as a Chosen One. He was a soldier, a fighter, that through his/her determination worked his way up to being considered for a controversial posting as a SPECTRE. His test mission just happened to wind him in the middle of Sarens and the Reapers plotting. Hell, even the beacon, if he hadnt moved fast enough those dreams he had would have been given to Ashley instead.
To me, that made Shepard different and much more interesting. He was simply a fighter that was very good at his job, that found himself in the middle of this crazy scenario. Perhaps that is what they meant by the underdog statement. Shepard is John McClain. Ryder is Neo. Shepard is Batman. Ryder is Superman. Yes, Shep went on to do some crazy shit, and survived crazy shit, but he didnt do so because he was destined to like Ryder, but because hes a tough as hell badass that just wouldnt give up, and those things came about during the narrative. Unlike Ryders, which was 'preordained to be the carrier of the godly SAM'.
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It's just a game, folks...
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Post by timebean on Apr 21, 2017 1:25:47 GMT
I've been thinking about this for a bit, and I think yes referencing Shep as an underdog isnt quite accurate, no, but the real difference between the characters I feel is the 'Chosen One' trope. Ryder, thanks to SAM, falls right in to the Chosen One archetype. Now, there is nothing wrong with the Chosen One archetype per se, its certainly used in many a popular fiction. Everything from Luke Skywalker, to Jesus, to King Arthur to the Matrix uses that archetype. Ryder is a 'Chosen One'. Shepard did not come across as a Chosen One. He was a soldier, a fighter, that through his/her determination worked his way up to being considered for a controversial posting as a SPECTRE. His test mission just happened to wind him in the middle of Sarens and the Reapers plotting. Hell, even the beacon, if he hadnt moved fast enough those dreams he had would have been given to Ashley instead. To me, that made Shepard different and much more interesting. He was simply a fighter that was very good at his job, that found himself in the middle of this crazy scenario. Perhaps that is what they meant by the underdog statement. Shepard is John McClain. Ryder is Neo. Shepard is Batman. Ryder is Superman. Yes, Shep went on to do some crazy shit, and survived crazy shit, but he didnt do so because he was destined to like Ryder, but because hes a tough as hell badass that just wouldnt give up, and those things came about during the narrative. Unlike Ryders, which was 'preordained to be the carrier of the godly SAM'. Well said! Perhaps you should have written the article! I would also suggest that DAO was a little similar. The Warden was chosen to be a Grey Warden because he/she had the proper skills to begin with. More similar to Shep getting chosen as Spectre. And then, as soon as she/she become a Warden (just like Shep getting chosen as a Spectre), bam! Crap goes crazy and they have to deal with it. There is a little more of a learning curve for the Warden, but still... Both the Inquisitor and the Pathfinder are more of the "accidental" chosen-one archetypes. They are not special in and of themselves as much as they were ordinary folks who get some magical plot device injected into them that forces them to live up to being special. I am not saying this is a bad thing. It is fine to develop a character that starts way out of their depth and then is forced to grow. But both the Pathfinder and the Inquisitor just...gah...I don't know what it is! They are so...nonchalant about it all. It is annoying.
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Post by jf8350143 on Apr 21, 2017 2:14:00 GMT
ME and DA series is about building a team and achieve something. So they have a limitation about how evil your main character can be because some of if not all of your teammates will try to take you down if you go cross a certain line.Pure renegade Shepard is kind hard to believe already.
If they are aiming at a stand-alone game, it would be easier, kill the teammates was no big deal. But both of them are franchise, they have take the future game into consideration, even only 1% of the player kills a certain character, they have to create a whole new bunch of stuff to reflect that choice.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 21, 2017 2:39:22 GMT
Shepard did not come across as a Chosen One. He was a soldier, a fighter, that through his/her determination worked his way up to being considered for a controversial posting as a SPECTRE. His test mission just happened to wind him in the middle of Sarens and the Reapers plotting. Hell, even the beacon, if he hadnt moved fast enough those dreams he had would have been given to Ashley instead. How is the beacon different from SAM? Could have been Ash or Kaidan, yep. Could have been the other Ryder sibling.
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Post by dazzarlok on Apr 21, 2017 2:42:01 GMT
Remotely related, but: Didn't Bioware say they didn't want the players to treat the Kett as just the bad guys, but for us to actually feel empathy for them? I didn't. Anyone did? I did. The Archon went against orders. Sealed off communication from his superiors and forced his soldiers to do things they normally wouldn't want to, all in an attempt to control the Remnant. That must suck Eh, while that was an interesting tidbit of information, I still didn't feel bad for them or anything like that because of that whole exaltation business they've got going on.
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timebean
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It's just a game, folks...
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR
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It's just a game, folks...
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR
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Post by timebean on Apr 21, 2017 2:49:38 GMT
Shepard did not come across as a Chosen One. He was a soldier, a fighter, that through his/her determination worked his way up to being considered for a controversial posting as a SPECTRE. His test mission just happened to wind him in the middle of Sarens and the Reapers plotting. Hell, even the beacon, if he hadnt moved fast enough those dreams he had would have been given to Ashley instead. How is the beacon different from SAM? Could have been Ash or Kaidan, yep. Could have been the other Ryder sibling. Beacon did not give Shep special abilities. It just gave him a vision. Shep's abilities are basically his own bad-assary. If Ashley or Kaiden got the vision, it wouldn't change anything, because SHep would still be the one running the show. In contrast, if Cora got the SAM-meld, SHE would be Pathfinder. SAM is what makes a pathfinder. Shepard is what makes Shepard.
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Post by dreman999 on Apr 21, 2017 3:13:25 GMT
But they can't do that in the first game and it's not like it's not part of the plot already. people who say it refutes history for get that what happened with the native Americans took time. the colonist did not just jump out the boat and then started to talk over. it started out as a good relationship. both sides helping one another till one took advantage of the other. and that took time, I would not expect this till later squeal to the game. Added with the fact that they all come from a galaxy where most of the species learn to coexist already and the Argarians are equally as advance as the milkyway races. It would be impossible for the milky way races to start taking out the argarian like the settlers did with the native american. Added with the fact the the kett are doing that anyway already and some place having colonist doing that already like with Kajara. Everytime people give this complaint i wonder if they really did understand what happened with the Indians vs the colonist and why it happened and how long that it actually took to happen. what happened with the native Americans took time. the colonist did not just jump out the boat and then started to talk over. it started out as a good relationship. both sides helping one another till one took advantage of the other.What? Where did you learn history? Wow. South America colonization? North American colonization of the West? Caribbean Islands? Australia's Aboriginals? Before that two millenium of slave trading before the new world even was first looked upon by Europeans? Things went to hell fast for some and took longer with others, but what you're saying is just another sorry excuse. Horrible. I did not say it did not turn to shit for the natives. I said it did not start out as shit. I'm mostly talking about the north american colonies. most only survived due to their interactivity with native american. Even in south america the Spanish were welcome in....only because they thought they were gods. And that not even going over with what happen in Asia were most of the major powers there stayed in control and adapted their war fair to compete with their more advance invaders. The reason of what happen to the native of these place were due to technological differences, illness, and numbers. the Mayan and the Spanish had completely different concepts of war with the Spanish war was about ruthlessly killing their enemy and mayan saw it as a ritual to capture as many people they can to sacrifice to their gods. and the there were the plagues. While the north american native issue were the colonist had more advance tech, and more number then they did and the same issue with illness carried by the colonist. the argarans don't even have those issues. tech wise we are even, number wise they have more then us, illness wise they are mostly immune and even then the initiative is paranoid about spreading illness to them by accident. And the the majority of the cultures of the initiative don't have a history of imperialism. the asari are the forefront of coexistence among the race and push that on to the other races. If they were imperialist we would have those issue in the milky way. We are too much on an even ground to have any major conflict with the argarians. Heck, It's safe to say the initiative is weaker then the argaian
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