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Post by abaris on Apr 22, 2017 15:13:02 GMT
I can kinda understand this complaint. But then I hear people talking about TW3, and how great of a game it was, and how all RPG's should be more like it. I never played any of the Witchers. I'm sure it's a good game, but a fixed character doesn't interest me much. What I miss in MEAs dialogue is the occasional option of go, find someone who cares. Ryder is pretty much fixed to be nice to everyone at every moment in the game. I have to admit when first reading about getting rid of Paragon/Renegade, I was excited. But they also got rid of most of the options to not be polite to everyone. Not only that, but they also got rid of the option to look the other way in most instances. For example, there's that one side quest about poisened Angara. I would have liked to accept the reasons given of why this happened, but following through there seems to be no other option than kill the ones responsible. That's what I mean by feeling detached. There's hardly any instance where you can play out your Ryder the way you liked to and not the only way the devs had in mind.
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Post by VanSinn on Apr 22, 2017 15:24:42 GMT
I can kinda understand this complaint. But then I hear people talking about TW3, and how great of a game it was, and how all RPG's should be more like it. I never played any of the Witchers. I'm sure it's a good game, but a fixed character doesn't interest me much. What I miss in MEAs dialogue is the occasional option of go, find someone who cares. Ryder is pretty much fixed to be nice to everyone at every moment in the game. I have to admit when first reading about getting rid of Paragon/Renegade, I was excited. But they also got rid of most of the options to not be polite to everyone. Not only that, but they also got rid of the option to look the other way in most instances. For example, there's that one side quest about poisened Angara. I would have liked to accept the reasons given of why this happened, but following through there seems to be no other option than kill the ones responsible. That's what I mean by feeling detached. There's hardly any instance where you can play out your Ryder the way you liked to and not the only way the devs had in mind. Well, I can say there are plenty of situations like that in the OT, and even more egregious than the ones we have in ME:A. I almost uninstalled ME2 when I found out we were forced to work with Cerberus. Yanno, the guys who set up my Sole Survivor's squad to be massacred by Thresher Maws. The ones I hated with a passion in ME1, and went WAY the hell outta my way to find every last one and kill 'em all. And I can't even really do much more than snark a little at TIM? If I'd been able to play Shepard the way I wanted to, and the way I played him in ME1, Jacob and Miranda would have never made it off the intro space station. From that moment, I completely lost any agency I felt for Shepard. Shepard was Bioware's character, I could just alter him a bit here and there. Ryder's the same way, but eh, fuck it. I never expected differently. I actually get more freedom with Ryder than I ever felt with Shepard after ME1. That could very well change in any Andromeda sequel, but I'm not EXPECTING to have a huge amount of agency over Ryder's character.
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Post by abaris on Apr 22, 2017 15:33:07 GMT
Well, I can say there are plenty of situations like that in the OT, and even more egregious than the ones we have in ME:A. I almost uninstalled ME2 when I found out we were forced to work with Cerberus. Yanno, the guys who set up my Sole Survivor's squad to be massacred by Thresher Maws. The ones I hated with a passion in ME1, and went WAY the hell outta my way to find every last one and kill 'em all. You see, that didn't bother me at all. I found that interesting and was rather bothered by ME3 forcing you into fighting Cerberus.
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Post by VanSinn on Apr 22, 2017 15:46:24 GMT
Well, I can say there are plenty of situations like that in the OT, and even more egregious than the ones we have in ME:A. I almost uninstalled ME2 when I found out we were forced to work with Cerberus. Yanno, the guys who set up my Sole Survivor's squad to be massacred by Thresher Maws. The ones I hated with a passion in ME1, and went WAY the hell outta my way to find every last one and kill 'em all. You see, that didn't bother me at all. I found that interesting and was rather bothered by ME3 forcing you into fighting Cerberus. You liked it, I hated it with a passion. I finally just came to the conclusion that Shepard was Bioware's character and played out the remainder of the trilogy to see the story, but Shepard was no longer "mine." And I think that's a big part of why Ryder is less malleable in some ways, so we DON'T run into situations like that from the OT. We get plenty of opportunities to define our Ryders through the "little moments" and conversations, but I don't see anything (so far) that Bioware could do that would completely go off track like the Cerberus thing could for people.
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Post by abaris on Apr 22, 2017 16:22:40 GMT
And I think that's a big part of why Ryder is less malleable in some ways, so we DON'T run into situations like that from the OT. We get plenty of opportunities to define our Ryders through the "little moments" and conversations, but I don't see anything (so far) that Bioware could do that would completely go off track like the Cerberus thing could for people. I get it that any player character following a quest line has to abide by certain regulations. That's not the point I'm trying to make. It's more the little things bothering me in being able to identify with my player. Example taken from DA:I. There are these moments when you can make a point that your character isn't the all around heroic person. Such as Blackwall asking what I'm making of this whole thing and you being able to reply something like I like to be the center of admiration. Which loses you a few brownie points with Blackwall but can help shape a character image. Same as with being made inquisitor and you being able to say, you're doing that for your own glory. That's not to say I always choose these options, but it sure was nice to have them. That's what I'm missing in MEA. The person is almost always polite and helpful, regardless of your reply options.
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Apr 22, 2017 16:30:40 GMT
30 hours into NG+ and I found exactly ZERO vintage heat sinks...fuck Probably a dumb question, but I gotta ask anyway. Did you research it first? If you didn't research it, you won't ever find one randomly or at vendors. yep, I have it equipped for my crusader shotgun....makes my vanguard feel invincible
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Post by VanSinn on Apr 22, 2017 16:30:40 GMT
And I think that's a big part of why Ryder is less malleable in some ways, so we DON'T run into situations like that from the OT. We get plenty of opportunities to define our Ryders through the "little moments" and conversations, but I don't see anything (so far) that Bioware could do that would completely go off track like the Cerberus thing could for people. I get it that any player character following a quest line has to abide by certain regulations. That's not the point I'm trying to make. It's more the little things bothering me in being able to identify with my player. Example taken from DA:I. There are these moments when you can make a point that your character isn't the all around heroic person. Such as Blackwall asking what I'm making of this whole thing and you being able to reply something like I like to be the center of admiration. Which loses you a few brownie points with Blackwall but can help shape a character image. Same as with being made inquisitor and you being able to say, you're doing that for your own glory. That's not to say I always choose these options, but it sure was nice to have them. That's what I'm missing in MEA. The person is almost always polite and helpful, regardless of your reply options. Eh. Not to be rude here, but if you're not seeing the little ways we can define our Ryder in ME:A, there's nothing I can say to get you to see 'em. They're there. The game certainly could stand to have MORE of 'em, but they're not invisible or absent. Like I said in a previous post, I have 3 Ryders, and they're all different from each other in admittedly subtle, but distinct ways.
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Post by VanSinn on Apr 22, 2017 16:32:20 GMT
Probably a dumb question, but I gotta ask anyway. Did you research it first? If you didn't research it, you won't ever find one randomly or at vendors. yep, I have it equipped for my crusader shotgun....makes my vanguard feel invincible Not sure what to say then, except you seem to have shit luck with RNG. Once they're researched, they're out there. Sucks to have such bad luck, though, or maybe I just got extraordinarily lucky.
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Apr 22, 2017 16:34:39 GMT
yep, I have it equipped for my crusader shotgun....makes my vanguard feel invincible Not sure what to say then, except you seem to have shit luck with RNG. Once they're researched, they're out there. Sucks to have such bad luck, though, or maybe I just got extraordinarily lucky. I even found a refilling crate and farmed for ONE HOUR...and found none of them (and yes the crate spawned Augs...) And no ine sells it...
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Post by DarkBeaver on Apr 22, 2017 18:57:34 GMT
True, there are good and bad examples. Unfortunately, the bad ones are either prolific enough or in such significant places that it stands out to people, and at that point, it becomes an issue. I would say this. And this is my opinion, you are more than free to disagree with me. And I'm going to use an appeal to authority logical fallacy, 'cause, hell, I can. I'm 40 years old. I've seen bad writing, in movies, in books, in TV shows. There's a very large difference between "not liking the style" of writing and it being "bad writing." A good bit of ME:A's writing was intentionally on the lighter side, a more "casual" take on the MEverse. A lot of people complaining about the writing, calling it teen fanfic levels, mostly picked all casual responses (I don't know what percentage, but I've asked a few and this was, indeed the case.) Casual responses are intentionally Whedon-esque Firefly types of lines. And I can understand why people don't like that style of writing, but most of those options I've picked weren't that bad. A bit cheesy at times, but that was the point of 'em. The other 3 options almost NEVER gave me a feeling of bad writing. There was a lighter tone in most of the autodialogue, and I'm not gonna deny that, but the lines worked well in the situation (for the most part) and it's again a subjective thing. Most of the "bad" writing spots I've seen in game are the ones that are constantly being pushed on review sites and YouTube videos, mostly for click-bait and views, and to be completely honest, there are not much more than a handful of spots in game where I just went "really?" over the writing. Cora's loyalty mission was probably the biggest culprit of that, though. Having more options for different situations would definitely be better. What we got may not be what people wanted, and they may have preferred other options, but for what it is, it works and works well. That's not "bad writing." That's "I wanted something different." That's why I get tired of people saying "bad writing" as some universal truth, when it's nothing more than personal preference. That preference isn't WRONG, per se. This story isn't your cuppa tea. I get that, and I certainly wouldn't complain if more options were given to appeal to "the other side." But just because you didn't like it doesn't necessarily make it bad writing. I personally didnt have as much of a problem with the dialog, i chose lots of casual also, and enjoyed it for the most part. I do understand why people would want a more serious, aggressive tone, however, and think its a valid criticism. i do have a problem with the logic of the story, especially on my second playthrough, when I started to pay more attention to detail. From the very beginning, there were things like, How did our pilots hit the scourge in the ark? Surely they've been awake for a while, i mean, the ark is full of people, engineers, medics, etc., how did they hit such a massive thing? And why at the Nexus dont they brief me on the Kett and Angara? They had to have had contact with them both, and for that matter, Remnant. There WERE survivors from the failed outposts on Eos who would have had lots to say about this stuff. I get the arguments about SAM being special for Ryders, but why not, just a few times, have Cora or Jacob (because they should have had implants too)scan something and say, "Hey, I found something over here". Even if it meant me scanning it again. How did the Angarans speak english? The pilots who forced us down on Aya didnt speak it, but by the time we hit the ground, everyone spoke it. With his massive armada, why didnt the Archon decimate Eos right away? There were plenty of Kett there to tell him the humans were back again.....and on and on...
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Post by VanSinn on Apr 22, 2017 19:12:50 GMT
I would say this. And this is my opinion, you are more than free to disagree with me. And I'm going to use an appeal to authority logical fallacy, 'cause, hell, I can. I'm 40 years old. I've seen bad writing, in movies, in books, in TV shows. There's a very large difference between "not liking the style" of writing and it being "bad writing." A good bit of ME:A's writing was intentionally on the lighter side, a more "casual" take on the MEverse. A lot of people complaining about the writing, calling it teen fanfic levels, mostly picked all casual responses (I don't know what percentage, but I've asked a few and this was, indeed the case.) Casual responses are intentionally Whedon-esque Firefly types of lines. And I can understand why people don't like that style of writing, but most of those options I've picked weren't that bad. A bit cheesy at times, but that was the point of 'em. The other 3 options almost NEVER gave me a feeling of bad writing. There was a lighter tone in most of the autodialogue, and I'm not gonna deny that, but the lines worked well in the situation (for the most part) and it's again a subjective thing. Most of the "bad" writing spots I've seen in game are the ones that are constantly being pushed on review sites and YouTube videos, mostly for click-bait and views, and to be completely honest, there are not much more than a handful of spots in game where I just went "really?" over the writing. Cora's loyalty mission was probably the biggest culprit of that, though. Having more options for different situations would definitely be better. What we got may not be what people wanted, and they may have preferred other options, but for what it is, it works and works well. That's not "bad writing." That's "I wanted something different." That's why I get tired of people saying "bad writing" as some universal truth, when it's nothing more than personal preference. That preference isn't WRONG, per se. This story isn't your cuppa tea. I get that, and I certainly wouldn't complain if more options were given to appeal to "the other side." But just because you didn't like it doesn't necessarily make it bad writing. I personally didnt have as much of a problem with the dialog, i chose lots of casual also, and enjoyed it for the most part. I do understand why people would want a more serious, aggressive tone, however, and think its a valid criticism. i do have a problem with the logic of the story, especially on my second playthrough, when I started to pay more attention to detail. From the very beginning, there were things like, How did our pilots hit the scourge in the ark? Surely they've been awake for a while, i mean, the ark is full of people, engineers, medics, etc., how did they hit such a massive thing? And why at the Nexus dont they brief me on the Kett and Angara? They had to have had contact with them both, and for that matter, Remnant. There WERE survivors from the failed outposts on Eos who would have had lots to say about this stuff. I get the arguments about SAM being special for Ryders, but why not, just a few times, have Cora or Jacob (because they should have had implants too)scan something and say, "Hey, I found something over here". Even if it meant me scanning it again. How did the Angarans speak english? The pilots who forced us down on Aya didnt speak it, but by the time we hit the ground, everyone spoke it. With his massive armada, why didnt the Archon decimate Eos right away? There were plenty of Kett there to tell him the humans were back again.....and on and on... See, I get where you're coming from here. And please believe I'm not trying to be rude here, but most of what you're describing are the same kinda nitpick deals with Bioware plots that have existed since KotOR and before. Bioware has NEVER been known for writing tight, exclusively consistent storylines. There's ALWAYS some wonkiness that people can pick apart in some form or another. So I don't see this as a negative compared to other Bioware games. Just like Bethesda games have the barest of bare-bones main plots (for the most part) but give the freedom to ignore it and strike off on our own, this kinda thing has been a staple of Bioware for years. Bioware tends to excel at character interaction. Decent plots for you and your crew to have adventures in, but those plots are generally not much more than decent. So I just don't see why this is suddenly a problem with ME:A specifically (and if you didn't mean it specifically directed towards ME:A, I'm not really talking to you, I've just heard this same argument so many times as a problem with ME:A, while the OT was damn near perfect.)
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Post by abaris on Apr 22, 2017 19:24:05 GMT
So I don't see this as a negative compared to other Bioware games. Just like Bethesda games have the barest of bare-bones main plots (for the most part) but give the freedom to ignore it and strike off on our own, this kinda thing has been a staple of Bioware for years. Bioware tends to excel at character interaction. Decent plots for you and your crew to have adventures in, but those plots are generally not much more than decent. Amen to that. And I don't excpect any video game to be the next great novel or aiming for the Pulitzer. Video games are generally about suspending disbelief. I think, Bioware didn't do it better or worse than in any previous game, but that's me, actually liking the exploration element and spending more time there than chasing the main quest. If one confines oneself to that, it's a very short trip anyway.
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Post by Rochrok on Apr 22, 2017 20:05:06 GMT
Here's the thing with EDI: saying "shut it off" amounts to nothing. Distrusting it amounts to nothing. No matter what you say or do, it's still an important plot device, it's still going to save the Normandy and Joker's still going to fall in love with it.
And players are still going to gripe about "my choices don't matter."
Now come to SAM. Sure, BW could add options to not like, distrust or even get rid of SAM. But it wouldn't matter because SAM is still an important plot device, it's still going to save you and still going to allow you to interface with Remnant tech. And if BW added those options and they amounted to nothing, players would still be griping about "my choices don't matter." Its the nature of the beast.
But it does matter. It matter in your charater building, it matters for roleplaying. A Shepard that says "It's good to have an AI or board" is very different than one that says "shut that thing off!". Sure, when it comes to plot development, it doesn't matter. EDI will still to the same things and so on. But it matters for the player, and I cannot overstate how important that is. So I'd say that people who are saying Andromeda = ME2 in this matter are missing the point entirely and are making a wrong assessment. I couldn't agree more. I didn't like working for Cerberus in ME2, just as I didn't like being forced to fight them in ME3. But I can accept that this is where BW wanted the narrative to go overall. My Shepard wanted EDI off the ship, but I realize that is not going to happen because this is a Cerberus project at the end of the day. I'm able to roleplay this out. The problem I have with Ryder is that I don't have any control over what he says or how he handles most situations. I just have control over the tone he uses before he defaults to casual. I'm willing to accept the useless title of Pathfinder because that is the story BW wants to tell. But their dialogue system is horrible.
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Post by abaris on Apr 22, 2017 20:34:44 GMT
I'm willing to accept the useless title of Pathfinder because that is the story BW wants to tell. But their dialogue system is horrible. I think it was worse in ME 3. Most conversations there ran on autopilot. That's not to say I'm content with what they offer now, and I made that pretty clear. For me it seems the getting rid of Paragon/Renegade also amounted to pretty much every reply being on the same lines. With a select few exceptions.
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Post by DarkBeaver on Apr 22, 2017 21:20:45 GMT
So I don't see this as a negative compared to other Bioware games. Just like Bethesda games have the barest of bare-bones main plots (for the most part) but give the freedom to ignore it and strike off on our own, this kinda thing has been a staple of Bioware for years. Bioware tends to excel at character interaction. Decent plots for you and your crew to have adventures in, but those plots are generally not much more than decent. Amen to that. And I don't excpect any video game to be the next great novel or aiming for the Pulitzer. Video games are generally about suspending disbelief. I think, Bioware didn't do it better or worse than in any previous game, but that's me, actually liking the exploration element and spending more time there than chasing the main quest. If one confines oneself to that, it's a very short trip anyway. I havent compared it to anything. I only played ME2 from the original series so I kind of look at them both as stand alone games. And yes, of course you have to suspend belief for any sci fi or fantasy game or movie or whatever...but within that imaginary universe, the story still should make sense. Its a huge leap to believe in the Remnant vaults being atmosphere processors, after all. Good thing they werent just storing old furniture in them, or them being communication centers or heck, anything but terraformers. But ok, right place, right time, sometimes you get lucky. Another head shaker for me was the Archon taking your sibling without capturing or killing anyone else on the Nexus. He didnt even write, "Archon wuz here" on it or anything. You get a tiny bit of fighting, but afterwards, everyone is still there except your bro/sis. No wonder his superiors are on his butt, he really sucks at the whole capture/convert company mission statement. Look, its a fun space shooter game. But the story is pretty bad. I think most of the review i saw had it about 5/10 or 6/10, and that seems about right to me.
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