VanSinn
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Post by VanSinn on Apr 22, 2017 18:01:03 GMT
I'm not gonna necessarily disagree with the bolded, but I AM gonna disagree that the MET was better in this regard vs ME:A. There's no renegade/paragon system, but many of the choices we have (in the actual choices sense, not the pure conversational choices) have very strong pragmatic/idealist overtones, which to me were the best types of renegade/paragon. Renegade could be sociopathic and downright murderous at times, Paragon could be way too "sunshine and rainbows" at times. The best ones were the ones that fell into the "pragmatic(renegade) and idealist(paragon)" choices. And we have those in ME:A. Rescuing the Moshae: Idealist: don't destroy the base, rescue the captured Angarans and avoid the unnecessary death of the additional angaran soldiers and scientists who came in during the assault. Pragmatic: The loss of the other Angarans is worth the destruction of the base, so the Kett can't use this place anymore. Kadara: Reyes vs Sloane. Sloane is known factor, Reyes we just found out had been deceiving us and is the Charlatan. Choosing Sloane over Reyes is the pragmatic choice, she may not be stable, but better the devil we know than the one we don't. Choosing Reyes is more idealist, since Sloane is borderline psychopathic, and could cause some major problems down the line. We don't know Reyes, but he's GOT to be better than Sloane, right? Right? Side quest on Voeld: You can either let the Angaran woman keep torturing her kett prisoner, in the (very) unlikely event he may know where her family is (borderline evil renegade) or kill the kett prisoner, saving it from torture. The kett are our enemies, and their goal is the forced subjugation and ultimate transformation of other species, so killing them is the right option, but torture is never the right option. (paragon, for sure.) This does lead the Angaran woman to be forced to face the fact that her family is beyond recovery, either because they're already dead, or we just got rid of any way for her to find them. There are many more examples of this kind of thing in ME:A. Pretending the OT did this stuff "better" is vast oversimplification at best, and straight up wrong at worst. agreed. Then why does it feel so few and far between? And so many rolepaly opportunities hidden behind tasks and pointless questions to npcs, hoping you'll get something interesting out of it. its not that it isnt there, its just lost without a solid narrative to drive the outcomes and all the background noise. As you said, hard to tell how it all went wrong without oversimplifying. Where it went wrong, in my opinion: I like the concept Bioware went with for ME:A. I like the exploration and discovery, most of the side quests tied in quite nicely to world building and lore for the settlements. There was enough linearity in the set-piece fights for that kinda thing, but the larger-world "finding a new home" idea really appealed to me. Execution, though, could have been better. While pretty much all of the "filler" side quests were well done (as far as filler quests go) I think there were just a few too many of them. The maps were just a bit too large. If ME:A had been scaled back JUST A HAIR, with about 30% of the tasks removed for another fleshed out side-quest chain on each planet that tied the settlement story arc with the Archon/Meridian story arc, making both of them a bit more integrated with each other, there wouldn't be quite as much "distance" between these larger choices, and things could have felt more impactful. This game is more or less done, what we see is what we got, but I hope Bioware reels the ambition back just a little in future installments. Keep the formula, just tighten it up a bit more. And give us more of the aggressive conversation options and more opportunities for more "renegade-esque" interrupts. I love what we got in ME:A, but improvement is always a good thing. |
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rheia
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Post by rheia on Apr 22, 2017 18:05:55 GMT
Honestly, the Andromeda's tone system feels like they have tried to unsuccessfully rip it out from Dragon Age 2.
I realize Dragon Age 2 was a bit controversial title, but, imho, their personality system was very well done. You had your (blue) diplomatic 'do things by the book/honorable' Hawke. You had a (purple) well meaning sarcastic 'jackass'. And then there was (red) agressive 'I'll take no shit from you' Hawke who not only felt radially different from the other two, but also had a couple extremely different ways to go about the quests. And you could mix them, (though at the key moments and auto-dialogues only the dominant mattered). It solved one issue I always had with paragon/renegade - in the trilogy, it was very hard to mix the morality choices to play to play a 'paragade' or ' renegon' type character without gaming the system. Sometimes it locked you out of both options.
If they have to let go of Paragon/Renegade, I'd much rather see DA2 style morality. I just don't think logical/professional/casual/emotional is different enough. Or at least, it wasn't implemented well. We had our 'illusion of choice' when picking personality responses, but they largely amounted to the same thing. Which was very lame, imho.
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mofojokers
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Post by mofojokers on Apr 22, 2017 18:14:21 GMT
agreed. Then why does it feel so few and far between? And so many rolepaly opportunities hidden behind tasks and pointless questions to npcs, hoping you'll get something interesting out of it. its not that it isnt there, its just lost without a solid narrative to drive the outcomes and all the background noise. As you said, hard to tell how it all went wrong without oversimplifying. Where it went wrong, in my opinion: I like the concept Bioware went with for ME:A. I like the exploration and discovery, most of the side quests tied in quite nicely to world building and lore for the settlements. There was enough linearity in the set-piece fights for that kinda thing, but the larger-world "finding a new home" idea really appealed to me. Execution, though, could have been better. While pretty much all of the "filler" side quests were well done (as far as filler quests go) I think there were just a few too many of them. The maps were just a bit too large. If ME:A had been scaled back JUST A HAIR, with about 30% of the tasks removed for another fleshed out side-quest chain on each planet that tied the settlement story arc with the Archon/Meridian story arc, making both of them a bit more integrated with each other, there wouldn't be quite as much "distance" between these larger choices, and things could have felt more impactful. This game is more or less done, what we see is what we got, but I hope Bioware reels the ambition back just a little in future installments. Keep the formula, just tighten it up a bit more. And give us more of the aggressive conversation options and more opportunities for more "renegade-esque" interrupts. I love what we got in ME:A, but improvement is always a good thing. End of the day Vansinn is right MEA is set in stone. MEA 2 will hopefully change it up just enough and build on what MEA did do right. |
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Post by gplayer on Apr 22, 2017 18:23:42 GMT
I mentioned this in another thread, but Renegade options are not about being a dick. I find them helpful to vent frustration at various plot points. To be honest I would have appreciated Renegade options in MEA to deal with: 1- The Little things that Matter: Being able to make sure the target of this quest faces consequences.
2- Vetra loyalty mission: Be able to report Sid and have her reprimanded and demoted/privaleges reduced
3- More Renegade options for dealing with the Krogan colony. Shep's renegade choices were a nice offset to Krogan arrogance and deceit. |
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Post by babe145869 on Apr 22, 2017 18:32:02 GMT
I miss the abbilty to be a bad ass, I read in a different thread that someone believed the renegade options were removed because Ryder isn't a Spectre, as in not "above the law" so s/he can't go around punching/killing everyone like Shepard could. My question for that theory is, WHAT LAW, we don't have much of a concil, no truly settled planets aside from Kidara. Kinda hard to effectively govern what doesn't exist. I don't need the p/r bar or the special dialogue options for being really nice or evil, just the abbilty to be something other than a forced paragon.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 22, 2017 18:42:43 GMT
As has been bought up before you can be just as renegade...if not more so...in MEA then in the trilogy. The new dialogue system is dope because it forces you away from that b duality...but it's still there.
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Post by vonuber on Apr 22, 2017 18:49:26 GMT
I miss the abbilty to be a bad ass, I read in a different thread that someone believed the renegade options were removed because Ryder isn't a Spectre, as in not "above the law" so s/he can't go around punching/killing everyone like Shepard could. My question for that theory is, WHAT LAW, we don't have much of a concil, no truly settled planets aside from Kidara. Kinda hard to effectively govern what doesn't exist. I don't need the p/r bar or the special dialogue options for being really nice or evil, just the abbilty to be something other than a forced paragon. OK, fine. Let's look at some of the things people have requested: You punch Addision . She removes you as a Pathfinder. and you are maybe kicked off the Nexus. You punch Tann. He removes you as a Pathfinder. and you are maybe kicked off the Nexus. Or you punch some of the Angara. You are now at war with the Angara. And so on. |
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Post by Duke Cameron on Apr 22, 2017 18:53:39 GMT
Eh, I like being a nice guy. It fits my real life personality. Keep renegade away from me.
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VanSinn
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Post by VanSinn on Apr 22, 2017 18:54:47 GMT
I miss the abbilty to be a bad ass, I read in a different thread that someone believed the renegade options were removed because Ryder isn't a Spectre, as in not "above the law" so s/he can't go around punching/killing everyone like Shepard could. My question for that theory is, WHAT LAW, we don't have much of a concil, no truly settled planets aside from Kidara. Kinda hard to effectively govern what doesn't exist. I don't need the p/r bar or the special dialogue options for being really nice or evil, just the abbilty to be something other than a forced paragon. For fucks sake, will people PLEASE drop the whole "forced paragon" bullshit argument. It's simply not true. Full stop. There are plenty of renegade-like options in ME:A. There are definitely places where a more "bad-ass" moment could have been added, like on Kadara (the outlaw town? Let me talk some shit right back to some asshole in the bar, with an option to knock him on his ass. That may lead to consequences with Sloane, but hey, he started it, right?) Elaadan with the Krogan, the MET set precedent where these kinds of actions can help gain the Krogan's trust. I'd have liked to see something there. But stop with the "forced paragon" talk. It's bullshit, nothing more. |
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Post by aglomeracja on Apr 22, 2017 19:32:48 GMT
I miss the abbilty to be a bad ass, I read in a different thread that someone believed the renegade options were removed because Ryder isn't a Spectre, as in not "above the law" so s/he can't go around punching/killing everyone like Shepard could. My question for that theory is, WHAT LAW, we don't have much of a concil, no truly settled planets aside from Kidara. Kinda hard to effectively govern what doesn't exist. I don't need the p/r bar or the special dialogue options for being really nice or evil, just the abbilty to be something other than a forced paragon. For fucks sake, will people PLEASE drop the whole "forced paragon" bullshit argument. It's simply not true. Full stop. There are plenty of renegade-like options in ME:A. There are definitely places where a more "bad-ass" moment could have been added, like on Kadara (the outlaw town? Let me talk some shit right back to some asshole in the bar, with an option to knock him on his ass. That may lead to consequences with Sloane, but hey, he started it, right?) Elaadan with the Krogan, the MET set precedent where these kinds of actions can help gain the Krogan's trust. I'd have liked to see something there. But stop with the "forced paragon" talk. It's bullshit, nothing more. You get a few interupts and decisions- we used to have some type of renegade choice in practically every conversation. Now you have to be nice to people almost all the time, sometimes even if the antagonize you. |
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VanSinn
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Post by VanSinn on Apr 22, 2017 19:39:08 GMT
For fucks sake, will people PLEASE drop the whole "forced paragon" bullshit argument. It's simply not true. Full stop. There are plenty of renegade-like options in ME:A. There are definitely places where a more "bad-ass" moment could have been added, like on Kadara (the outlaw town? Let me talk some shit right back to some asshole in the bar, with an option to knock him on his ass. That may lead to consequences with Sloane, but hey, he started it, right?) Elaadan with the Krogan, the MET set precedent where these kinds of actions can help gain the Krogan's trust. I'd have liked to see something there. But stop with the "forced paragon" talk. It's bullshit, nothing more. You get a few interupts and decisions- we used to have some type of renegade choice in practically every conversation. Now you have to be nice to people almost all the time, sometimes even if the antagonize you.  |
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danishgambit
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Post by danishgambit on Apr 22, 2017 20:20:31 GMT
Paragon Shepard was naive and sometimes stupid.
Renegade Shepard was crazy or just an ass hole.
The system they used is fine. It was just executed horribly.
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Post by Ahriman on Apr 22, 2017 22:08:37 GMT
Where does anyone get the idea that a Council of any sort is coming to MEA? Ehm, the game says so. It will be assembled soon. Tann tells about it in the end. |
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mofojokers
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Post by mofojokers on Apr 22, 2017 22:37:05 GMT
Where does anyone get the idea that a Council of any sort is coming to MEA? Ehm, the game says so. It will be assembled soon. Tann tells about it in the end. Seriously looking forward to it and as I said above i feel they will turn us spectres for the council. This will make for an interesting MEA 2 i would say. Although some may say it's too MET like but i would actually like that personally. 😊 |
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Post by Ahriman on Apr 22, 2017 23:26:11 GMT
Ehm, the game says so. It will be assembled soon. Tann tells about it in the end. Seriously looking forward to it and as I said above i feel they will turn us spectres for the council. Well, it's not like Ryder is limited by anything but storytelling anyway. Besides Pathfinders already have almost full freedom of action if it helps in settling a planet, even making deals with criminals is accepted. Spectres had their law immunity because they had to deal with local governments and corporations. Andromeda has none of these, Outlaws/Kett are totally up to you to deal with, Angara are independent allies and you can only cooperate with them, Outposts are part of Nexus' chain of command. |
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brad2240
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Post by brad2240 on Apr 23, 2017 18:38:28 GMT
I miss the abbilty to be a bad ass, I read in a different thread that someone believed the renegade options were removed because Ryder isn't a Spectre, as in not "above the law" so s/he can't go around punching/killing everyone like Shepard could. My question for that theory is, WHAT LAW, we don't have much of a concil, no truly settled planets aside from Kidara. Kinda hard to effectively govern what doesn't exist. I don't need the p/r bar or the special dialogue options for being really nice or evil, just the abbilty to be something other than a forced paragon. OK, fine. Let's look at some of the things people have requested: You punch Addision . She removes you as a Pathfinder. and you are maybe kicked off the Nexus. You punch Tann. He removes you as a Pathfinder. and you are maybe kicked off the Nexus. Or you punch some of the Angara. You are now at war with the Angara. And so on.
This. So much this!
I always had the feeling that Ryder has to answer to Nexus authority, and could simply be replaced if he/she went too far over the line. Unlike Shepard who could get away with anything as a Spectre.
I really think some of the more extreme Renegade actions would have no place in MEA, where there is at least some emphasis on being a diplomat. In the situations we're presented, Ryder simply can't walk around sticking guns in people's faces or punching anyone he feels like.
Sometimes the fact that Shepard could do that stuff and still proceed with the plot really stretched the bounds of believability.
I didn't mind some of the Renegade snark, and most of my Shepards made use of it, but a lot of the red options were Shep being a dick for no reason, and sometimes just plain psychotic. It made Renegade feel inconsistent and not at all like the disciplined military professional he or she is supposed to be. That's why I mostly played Paragon. But this has been a thing in BW titles at least back to KotOR, where playing Dark Side often meant being a stupid thug or just mindlessly evil. It's still an issue with SWTOR, also, to some extent. I guess it's just something BW struggles with.
Ryder feels consistent to me and the options we're given feel fitting to the plot and situations. There's only been a few times where I disagreed with something Ryder said and none that actually pulled me out of the game the way some of Shepard's more extreme Renegade moments could. So, personally, I don't need the P/R system back but if some more Renegade-style options are added in MEA2 and beyond, I hope they're implemented better than in the past.
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gplayer
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I love nailing asari. So ageless and superior -- then you get them and they squeal like school girls
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Post by gplayer on Apr 24, 2017 11:28:27 GMT
This is impossible to discuss without being in the spoiler thread. Renegade is about more than just punching. It includes punishing people for wasting your time and placing you in danger. The nephew who brought his aunt with a contagion to Andromeda. The little sister who smuggles outlaws into colonies and escapes with little more than a slap on the wrist. I would have liked a renegade prompt to kill Sloane before the sniper. What about the guy who sabotages the power conduits on the hyperion and nexus and just walks away?
Now when I think of it, the game is full of instances where punching is the most appropriate response!
This is not about punching Addison or Tann. With Addison you get plenty of 'told you so' moments and you get to expose her involvement in the Three Sabres debacle (at the behest of the aforementioned little sister I might add, hypocracy much?). Tann is such an over the top douchebag bureaucrat, I guess at my age I just dismiss behavior like that. It would have been nice though if Ryder had a nice comeback to "Its not called the Pathfinder Initiative".
Alec was abrasive without being over the top renegade. I wish some of the options would let us see something of Alec in his kids. |
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wright1978
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Post by wright1978 on Apr 24, 2017 11:54:05 GMT
Agree with the OP, i was somewhat disappointed that removal of paragon/renegade really resulted in four flavours of paragon much of the time.
This to be isn't about being able to punch people for me which i didn't really use it's about occasions where more direct/aggressive behaviour occurred at best Ryder was allowed to stand back and let others do it rather than be actively engaged/complicit in making it happen and at worst exhibits an overly fixed paragon approach.
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Conquer Your Dreams
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Post by Conquer Your Dreams on Apr 24, 2017 11:58:42 GMT
Yeah, i miss my renegade.
Too many times in Andromeda i have way too limited choice of paragon, silly answers, when my real intention was to kick someone butt or kill, just like that.
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Post by mofojokers on Apr 25, 2017 23:27:07 GMT
Yeah, i miss my renegade. Too many times in Andromeda i have way too limited choice of paragon, silly answers, when my real intention was to kick someone butt or kill, just like that. Still get salty about the angry soldier. Who abuses you and your father literally not long after he has died. Ryder would so beat the hell out of them for the disrespect. But yeah MEA is done and dusted but now we can look to MEA 2. Hopefully we see more distinct choices that are wildly different to one another. From response to choices to down the line changes. Cocky Ryder is ok but definitely nothing like Renegade Shepherd. I love heroes that you would actually fear * cough * Riddick*.😆 |
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