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Post by smilesja on Jun 13, 2022 16:31:24 GMT
You better give me the code for the Miranda mod when Starfield releases!
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Finished Dissertation long ago lol. Now happily employed :D
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Post by biggydx on Jun 13, 2022 16:34:52 GMT
On a more serious note however. This is clearly just Fallout 4 in space. Which I suspected would be the case, but was still hoping it wouldn't be, because Fallout 4 was nothing but worthless Settlement mechanics and god awful radiant quests with a few mediocre scripted quests thrown in now and then. the 1,000 planets and the "land literally anywhere" is most likely the patented Todd overpromise/lie. Even if it's not, I highly doubt there's ever gonna be a reason to really take advantage of a system like that, because unless they have like literally 1,000,000 man hours into development then 95% of those planets are gonna be empty, barren rocks with nothing to do except farm resources and build stupid settlements that probably still won't provide you with much of anything. The gunplay still looks terrible, like their shooting the same old fake bullets that enemies don't react to. They seemingly took a step in the right direction in regards to skills and character customization however. Finally let us construct a basic background for the character and even give us optional traits to take to grant additional flavor? That's a huge step up from their most recent releases. However, until I get some assurance that this isn't basically just another Building Simulator and that these planets(that are unrelated to the main quest) will have actual crafted content, I have no real interest in wasting hundreds of hours just building pointless shit. I suspect they have 1000 procedurally generated planets for the sake of supporting the settlement system, and offering players a variety of locals and vista's to work with. Just my own two cents. I still think they'll likely have certain planets with sections that are handcrafted.
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Post by smilesja on Jun 13, 2022 17:16:57 GMT
On a more serious note however. This is clearly just Fallout 4 in space. Which I suspected would be the case, but was still hoping it wouldn't be, because Fallout 4 was nothing but worthless Settlement mechanics and god awful radiant quests with a few mediocre scripted quests thrown in now and then. the 1,000 planets and the "land literally anywhere" is most likely the patented Todd overpromise/lie. Even if it's not, I highly doubt there's ever gonna be a reason to really take advantage of a system like that, because unless they have like literally 1,000,000 man hours into development then 95% of those planets are gonna be empty, barren rocks with nothing to do except farm resources and build stupid settlements that probably still won't provide you with much of anything. The gunplay still looks terrible, like their shooting the same old fake bullets that enemies don't react to. They seemingly took a step in the right direction in regards to skills and character customization however. Finally let us construct a basic background for the character and even give us optional traits to take to grant additional flavor? That's a huge step up from their most recent releases. However, until I get some assurance that this isn't basically just another Building Simulator and that these planets(that are unrelated to the main quest) will have actual crafted content, I have no real interest in wasting hundreds of hours just building pointless shit. I suspect they have 1000 procedurally generated planets for the sake of supporting the settlement system, and offering players a variety of locals and vista's to work with. Just my own two cents. I still think they'll likely have certain planets with sections that are handcrafted. And I'll be okay with that to be honest.
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Post by azarhal on Jun 13, 2022 17:27:11 GMT
There will probably be "something" to discover on every planet, even if just procedurally generated. But some kind of cool loot that makes it worthwhile to go anywhere. I'm really curious about how they'll make a story and the large number of planets come together as an organic experience. The trailer says some are barren resource rich "planets", so I don't think there is necessarily something to discover on each one of them. There is probably something to discover in every systems thought. There is ~100 of them and Skyrim had almost 200 handcrafted "dungeons", so each system having one or two handcrafted base/mine to explore would be on line with Skyrim. That is what I would considered the "minimum" too. I suspect the main story will have "us" search for the relics. I counted 9 in the trailer when the gizmo is forming itself in the Constellation HQ. It seems at least one is owned by a rich guy, but most of them probably requires exploring dungeons in uncivilized areas to find them. The systems are split into Settled and unsettled systems too. On the map there is an indicator of which faction control the current system as well. The Settled ones: - Freestar Collective has 3 - The United Colonies have more, but I wasn't able to find how many. - Neon is independent (and might not be considered a Settled system?) There could be a few others independent systems too, since Neon was created by Xenofresh Corporation. The majority probably fall into the unsettled category thought: - Crimson Fleet or other pirates might be controlling a few systems - UC and Freestar were at war for 20 years, some systems might have been used as battleground but aren't settled now (or anymore). - some exploited by corporations for resources ------- On another subject: Factions Constellation is joined when you do the main quest. It's a space explorer guild. These are the known joinable factions: - United Colonies: for those who wants a modern society (it's republic I think) - Freestar Collective: for those who wants to be space cowboys and live on the frontier. - Crimson Fleet: for those who wants to be pirates - Ryujin Industries: for people who wants a corporate life Possible other joinable factions: - Neon (it has a faction traits) - Ecliptic Mercenaries/Spacers/The House of Va’ruun were presented at the same time as the Crimson Fleet in a video. The Ecliptic Mercs description is that they do dangerous missions for clients which sound like either competitors or something the PC can join. Spacers and The House of Va’ruun could be antagonists only thought.
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...lives for biotic explosions. And cheesecake!
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Post by Kappa Neko on Jun 13, 2022 17:37:15 GMT
There will probably be "something" to discover on every planet, even if just procedurally generated. But some kind of cool loot that makes it worthwhile to go anywhere. I'm really curious about how they'll make a story and the large number of planets come together as an organic experience. The trailer says some are barren resource rich "planets", so I don't think there is necessarily something to discover on each one of them. There is probably something to discover in every systems thought. Good enough for me! And thanks for all the details. I only had time to watch it once during breakfast before work and I skipped some of Todd's dialogue so I wouldn't be late.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Jun 13, 2022 17:44:07 GMT
On a more serious note however. This is clearly just Fallout 4 in space. Which I suspected would be the case, but was still hoping it wouldn't be, because Fallout 4 was nothing but worthless Settlement mechanics and god awful radiant quests with a few mediocre scripted quests thrown in now and then. Those "worthless" settlement mechanics was what made Fallout 4 more alive. The radiant quests were fine but needed more variety I'd say. Yes, because Bethesda gave everyone an empty ass map devoid of content and told you to "make your own fun". Lazy developer cop out.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 13, 2022 17:51:29 GMT
Those "worthless" settlement mechanics was what made Fallout 4 more alive. The radiant quests were fine but needed more variety I'd say. Yes, because Bethesda gave everyone an empty ass map devoid of content and told you to "make your own fun". Lazy developer cop out. Uh, you mean in Fallout 4? 'Cause that's simply not true. Boston was pretty densely filled with quests and explorable locations. You may not have liked the style (I am not a big fan of Fallout myself) but come on now.
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Post by smilesja on Jun 13, 2022 18:31:36 GMT
Those "worthless" settlement mechanics was what made Fallout 4 more alive. The radiant quests were fine but needed more variety I'd say. Yes, because Bethesda gave everyone an empty ass map devoid of content and told you to "make your own fun". Lazy developer cop out. Huh? There were plenty of densely populated regions in Boston, the Vaults, Diamond City, a lot of non radiated quests.
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LogicGunn
N3
I'll relinquish one bullet. Where do you want it?
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: LogicGunn
PSN: LogicGunn
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I'll relinquish one bullet. Where do you want it?
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Post by LogicGunn on Jun 13, 2022 18:32:28 GMT
I suspect they have 1000 procedurally generated planets for the sake of supporting the settlement system, and offering players a variety of locals and vista's to work with. Just my own two cents. I still think they'll likely have certain planets with sections that are handcrafted. And I'll be okay with that to be honest. Same. Bethesda have made a Bethesda game, which is A.) exactly what I expect and B.) exactly what I want.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by azarhal on Jun 13, 2022 19:07:29 GMT
I've been rewatching the space combat and I agree with the Freelancer like combat claims. Even the enemy ships seems to behave like in that game: they take stupid random turns almost colliding with you. Also, it means it won't be a super realistic space combat simulation with newton forces and cie. Which is probably for the best since that is hard to handle properly for both the devs and the players. Freelancer is actually a terrible space combat sim in term of realism, but it is rather fun and easy to get into and play. ---- On Reddit Starfield, I just saw someone scared that there was no "traditional Bethesda" looting in the game because they showed none in the gameplay trailer. People came to his rescue telling him that it was confirmed we will be able to take all the coffee mugs with us. Some also pointed out that in a very fast combat scene in the trailer you can see "pickpocket" and take all/transfer prompts on an enemy. I was left wondering if there will be different looking coffee mugs in Starfield. Way better self-created collectible than pillows and cheese wheels. ---- I read that the game had 150 000 lines of dialogues and Skyrim around 60k. I think we can estimate that the game has at least 2x the amount of unique NPCs than Skyrim had with that metric. So ~2000 (Skyrim had 1001). The other choices is that NPCs have way more stuff to say in Starfield than in Skyrim. Or it's a mix of both options. Either way, it's a way bigger game. --- The "get an house, get a 50k mortgage" traits might point to a bank/loan system like Daggerfall in Starfield. The devs made a few mention in interviews of going back to their old games for mechanics inspiration. --- I'm somewhat sad we didn't see any inventory, store or dialogue menus. I take it they are simply not finished yet, the game is like a year away still...
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 13, 2022 19:19:03 GMT
I've been rewatching the space combat and I agree with the Freelancer like combat claims. Even the enemy ships seems to behave like in that game: they take stupid random turns almost colliding with you. Also, it means it won't be a super realistic space combat simulation with newton forces and cie. Which is probably for the best since that is hard to handle properly for both the devs and the players. Freelancer is actually a terrible space combat sim in term of realism, but it is rather fun and easy to get into and play. Yea, one thing we (or at least I) didn't see was something like an uncoupled mode, where we can let the ship drift in one direction while turning with the RCS thrusters. I'd actually really like to see that as it adds a further degree of "realism" to space combat IMO and it's a fun mechanic. Since we did see different gravity levels on planets as well as zero-g personal combat, I'd think they'd put that in but I guess if they had it, we'd probably have seen it.
As for the inventory, yeah, I don't have much hope there. As a PC player, Bethesda's default UIs have been pretty terrible for ages. The last really nice one was Morrowind, I think. I doubt they'll give us anything decent this time. Another thing where we can only hope for the modders to jump in quickly (like they did in both Skyrim and Fallout, so at least that bodes well).
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Post by therevanchist25 on Jun 13, 2022 19:30:07 GMT
Yes, because Bethesda gave everyone an empty ass map devoid of content and told you to "make your own fun". Lazy developer cop out. Uh, you mean in Fallout 4? 'Cause that's simply not true. Boston was pretty densely filled with quests and explorable locations. You may not have liked the style (I am not a big fan of Fallout myself) but come on now. Boston itself was was one section of a wider map sir. Your cherry picking at best. The Glowing Sea has 2 quests related to it, 2. And it's almost a whole quarter of the entire game play area. Everything south of Boston, aka about half the map, has a handful of quests at best, and exists purely to facilitate grinding materials for Settlements. What kind of low expectation argument is this? at least half the map is entirely empty fluff that has no real reason to exist except to mindlessly grind and build worthless settlements. I know exactly how little content that game has. I spent hundreds of hours in game looking for it, across multiple characters, and always ran out of content once you reach the lower half of the map. Even then, the parts of the map with quests, the quests are fairly mediocre at best and can all be described with 1 sentence summaries. "Crazy magic family is dumb" "A kid is stuck in a fridge for 200 years" "A deathclaw is stuck in the museum" "Man sells travelers ghoul meat" etc etc. There is no depth to the quests that the game actually does have. these descriptions fully encapsulate the entirety of what the quests entail. There is no twists, or divergent paths in almost any case. It's like the quests were picked by interns by pulling slips of paper out of a fish bowl with these 1 sentence descriptions written on them. Naturally the main quests are more detailed, but their still fairly mediocre and is utterly welded onto the train tracks it's running on, to the point that even picking a faction is almost entirely pointless, and gives you the exact same copy and paste ending for all of them except 1 because people stupidly threw a fit about Fallout 3 having the gall to actually end to show you different epilogues and all these idiots wanted to just run around forever and ever doing basically nothing on 1 character rather than start over and try different outcomes. Every fallout before 4 was a vastly better RPG in almost every way possible. Because 4 isn't an RPG, it's Junkyard Minecraft, by design. Which is fine, people like Minecraft and it's a popular genre type. But it's not a real Fallout game, and it's not what I'm looking for.
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Post by azarhal on Jun 13, 2022 19:47:13 GMT
I've been rewatching the space combat and I agree with the Freelancer like combat claims. Even the enemy ships seems to behave like in that game: they take stupid random turns almost colliding with you. Also, it means it won't be a super realistic space combat simulation with newton forces and cie. Which is probably for the best since that is hard to handle properly for both the devs and the players. Freelancer is actually a terrible space combat sim in term of realism, but it is rather fun and easy to get into and play. Yea, one thing we (or at least I) didn't see was something like an uncoupled mode, where we can let the ship drift in one direction while turning with the RCS thrusters. I'd actually really like to see that as it adds a further degree of "realism" to space combat IMO and it's a fun mechanic. Since we did see different gravity levels on planets as well as zero-g personal combat, I'd think they'd put that in but I guess if they had it, we'd probably have seen it. Yeah, I don't think we will be able to drift with our ship. *sad panda face* The ships look like space-box with thrusters at the back, not something super maneuverable too, but I always wanted to have a space bucket so I'm fine with it. Oh and speaking of gravity levels, I wonder if some planet will have special requirements for ship composition based on g-force. Just like some planet might be amazing for bunny hopping (that planet will have a lots of Great Serpent fanatics).
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 13, 2022 19:49:13 GMT
Uh, you mean in Fallout 4? 'Cause that's simply not true. Boston was pretty densely filled with quests and explorable locations. You may not have liked the style (I am not a big fan of Fallout myself) but come on now. Boston itself was was one section of a wider map sir. Your cherry picking at best. The Glowing Sea has 2 quests related to it, 2. And it's almost a whole quarter of the entire game play area. Everything south of Boston, aka about half the map, has a handful of quests at best, and exists purely to facilitate grinding materials for Settlements. What kind of low expectation argument is this? at least half the map is entirely empty fluff that has no real reason to exist except to mindlessly grind and build worthless settlements. I know exactly how little content that game has. I spent hundreds of hours in game looking for it, across multiple characters, and always ran out of content once you reach the lower half of the map. Even then, the parts of the map with quests, the quests are fairly mediocre at best and can all be described with 1 sentence summaries. "Crazy magic family is dumb" "A kid is stuck in a fridge for 200 years" "A deathclaw is stuck in the museum" "Man sells travelers ghoul meat" etc etc. There is no depth to the quests that the game actually does have. these descriptions fully encapsulate the entirety of what the quests entail. There is no twists, or divergent paths in almost any case. It's like the quests were picked by interns by pulling slips of paper out of a fish bowl with these 1 sentence descriptions written on them. Naturally the main quests are more detailed, but their still fairly mediocre and is utterly welded onto the train tracks it's running on, to the point that even picking a faction is almost entirely pointless, and gives you the exact same copy and paste ending for all of them except 1 because people stupidly threw a fit about Fallout 3 having the gall to actually end to show you different epilogues and all these idiots wanted to just run around forever and ever doing basically nothing on 1 character rather than start over and try different outcomes. Every fallout before 4 was a vastly better RPG in almost every way possible. Because 4 isn't an RPG, it's Junkyard Minecraft, by design. Which is fine, people like Minecraft and it's a popular genre type. But it's not a real Fallout game, and it's not what I'm looking for. a) I find it enormously funny that you would spend 100s of hours in a game you are so mad about because of it's lack of content. I mean, seriously? b ) I played through FO4 once and did everything (all quests, explored just about every dungeon, I even build out the settlements enough to be self sufficient but no more). According to my Steam Library that took me 153 hours. It's one of the games in my Steam library I spent the most hours in for a single playthrough. In that time, I had a lot of fun and never ran out of content. Yes, building the settlements there was slightly repetitive but I did them in between other quests so it was no bother at all. So that was my experience with the game. I hope you'll not tell me that it is "wrong" in some way.
c) I don't care that half the map is "useless" or whatever you want to call it. I was in the glowing sea for those 2 quests as well and then I never went back. So what? That's fine. If you want to spend another 100 hours uselessly wandering through the glowing sea, that's your problem but it doesn't mean the game doesn't have enough content. In fact, I am hoping (and expecting) the same for Starfield. Give me all that possibility to go places without forcing me to. If there are only, say, 20 planets out of those 1000, which have actual hand crated content on them, that's perfectly fine if that content also gives me 150 hours of quests to do. Perfect. Everything else would be completely overblown expectations. The rest is for addons and modders. d ) As for the quest and dungeon quality, well, bit of a matter of taste there. I do agree that it wasn't all super inspired but there were definitely fun moments in it and honestly, I haven't really played a Bethesda game where the stories were super brilliant. In Bethesda games, IMO the story is more of a background thing that gets you a hook to explore their worlds. And in that regard, FO4 IMO wasn't worse than, say, Skyrim or Oblivion. For Starfield, I don't expect more or less than that.
I really do wonder what people expect from games that are already that huge. It's a bit ridiculous IMO.
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N6
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by azarhal on Jun 13, 2022 20:18:47 GMT
I really do wonder what people expect from games that are already that huge. It's a bit ridiculous IMO. Infinite handcrafted content! But seriously, I think some people just think game space should be equally used, because it's a concept pushed by certain devs. But Bethesda never cared. Saying that, I do think Fallout 4 is the worst Fallout, but quest density or the settlement system isn't why.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Jun 13, 2022 20:53:52 GMT
Boston itself was was one section of a wider map sir. Your cherry picking at best. The Glowing Sea has 2 quests related to it, 2. And it's almost a whole quarter of the entire game play area. Everything south of Boston, aka about half the map, has a handful of quests at best, and exists purely to facilitate grinding materials for Settlements. What kind of low expectation argument is this? at least half the map is entirely empty fluff that has no real reason to exist except to mindlessly grind and build worthless settlements. I know exactly how little content that game has. I spent hundreds of hours in game looking for it, across multiple characters, and always ran out of content once you reach the lower half of the map. Even then, the parts of the map with quests, the quests are fairly mediocre at best and can all be described with 1 sentence summaries. "Crazy magic family is dumb" "A kid is stuck in a fridge for 200 years" "A deathclaw is stuck in the museum" "Man sells travelers ghoul meat" etc etc. There is no depth to the quests that the game actually does have. these descriptions fully encapsulate the entirety of what the quests entail. There is no twists, or divergent paths in almost any case. It's like the quests were picked by interns by pulling slips of paper out of a fish bowl with these 1 sentence descriptions written on them. Naturally the main quests are more detailed, but their still fairly mediocre and is utterly welded onto the train tracks it's running on, to the point that even picking a faction is almost entirely pointless, and gives you the exact same copy and paste ending for all of them except 1 because people stupidly threw a fit about Fallout 3 having the gall to actually end to show you different epilogues and all these idiots wanted to just run around forever and ever doing basically nothing on 1 character rather than start over and try different outcomes. Every fallout before 4 was a vastly better RPG in almost every way possible. Because 4 isn't an RPG, it's Junkyard Minecraft, by design. Which is fine, people like Minecraft and it's a popular genre type. But it's not a real Fallout game, and it's not what I'm looking for. a) I find it enormously funny that you would spend 100s of hours in a game you are so mad about because of it's lack of content. I mean, seriously? b ) I played through FO4 once and did everything (all quests, explored just about every dungeon, I even build out the settlements enough to be self sufficient but no more). According to my Steam Library that took me 153 hours. It's one of the games in my Steam library I spent the most hours in for a single playthrough. In that time, I had a lot of fun and never ran out of content. Yes, building the settlements there was slightly repetitive but I did them in between other quests so it was no bother at all. So that was my experience with the game. I hope you'll not tell me that it is "wrong" in some way.
c) I don't care that half the map is "useless" or whatever you want to call it. I was in the glowing sea for those 2 quests as well and then I never went back. So what? That's fine. If you want to spend another 100 hours uselessly wandering through the glowing sea, that's your problem but it doesn't mean the game doesn't have enough content. In fact, I am hoping (and expecting) the same for Starfield. Give me all that possibility to go places without forcing me to. If there are only, say, 20 planets out of those 1000, which have actual hand crated content on them, that's perfectly fine if that content also gives me 150 hours of quests to do. Perfect. Everything else would be completely overblown expectations. The rest is for addons and modders. d ) As for the quest and dungeon quality, well, bit of a matter of taste there. I do agree that it wasn't all super inspired but there were definitely fun moments in it and honestly, I haven't really played a Bethesda game where the stories were super brilliant. In Bethesda games, IMO the story is more of a background thing that gets you a hook to explore their worlds. And in that regard, FO4 IMO wasn't worse than, say, Skyrim or Oblivion. For Starfield, I don't expect more or less than that.
I really do wonder what people expect from games that are already that huge. It's a bit ridiculous IMO.
What I expect sir, is games to stop being so fucking big for literally no reason. Every damn open world game does this, and I'm sick of it. They make giant landmasses and copy and paste like 40 hours of curated content across it's size to artificially create 140, 200, 1000 hour grind fests that only serve to drain away a players time doing busy work. The fact that you think it's entirely acceptable, to have literally a quarter of a games map just sit there, and be useless is fucking insanity, and just speaks to how conditioned everyone is to just accept this garbage. Just because a map is gigantic does not mean it's good, or that it's well designed, or that it's even desirable. I wandered the Glowing Sea because I wanted to know why it was even in the fucking game to begin with. I thought "okay there must be quests out here, why else would this giant section of map even be here?" But no, it's just there, for no reason. Probably months of work for some level designer and it just sits there taking up file space when it could have simply been cut entirely and the work that went into it diverted to something actually useful. That's what I spent all my hours in game doing, wandering around looking for quests that didn't exist, and wondering why whole sections of the map even existed when there was nothing for massive swaths of time. Game worlds should only be as big as the developer needs to implement the content they have. What's actually ridiculous is how no one realizes what a colossal waste of time and manhours so much of open world design actually is, because people are under the wrong idea that Dollars Per Hour is a great metric of a games quality.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Jun 13, 2022 21:32:29 GMT
I really do wonder what people expect from games that are already that huge. It's a bit ridiculous IMO. Infinite handcrafted content! But seriously, I think some people just think game space should be equally used, because it's a concept pushed by certain devs. But Bethesda never cared. Saying that, I do think Fallout 4 is the worst Fallout, but quest density or the settlement system isn't why. Oh make no mistake, the terrible quest density or settlement system makes up a very very small percentage of what makes Fallout 4 bad, but they are very much symptoms of the actual reasons. Also, that never having been Bethesda is simply not accurate. Morrowind is very much so a case of that. Even Oblivion is more content relevant space than not.
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Post by smilesja on Jun 13, 2022 22:11:23 GMT
Uh, you mean in Fallout 4? 'Cause that's simply not true. Boston was pretty densely filled with quests and explorable locations. You may not have liked the style (I am not a big fan of Fallout myself) but come on now. Every fallout before 4 was a vastly better RPG in almost every way possible. Because 4 isn't an RPG, it's Junkyard Minecraft, by design. Which is fine, people like Minecraft and it's a popular genre type. But it's not a real Fallout game, and it's not what I'm looking for. No offense, but it sounds like a typical No Mutants Allowed argument. I don't like it therefore it's not an RPG and not the TOTALLY REAL FALLOUT game. That franchise has evolved over the years mainly because it went through radically different developers who has a different vision of what an RPG is. Bethesda focuses on world building, exploration and recently building. That's it's strength and adds to the RPG genre.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 13, 2022 22:18:17 GMT
a) I find it enormously funny that you would spend 100s of hours in a game you are so mad about because of it's lack of content. I mean, seriously? b ) I played through FO4 once and did everything (all quests, explored just about every dungeon, I even build out the settlements enough to be self sufficient but no more). According to my Steam Library that took me 153 hours. It's one of the games in my Steam library I spent the most hours in for a single playthrough. In that time, I had a lot of fun and never ran out of content. Yes, building the settlements there was slightly repetitive but I did them in between other quests so it was no bother at all. So that was my experience with the game. I hope you'll not tell me that it is "wrong" in some way.
c) I don't care that half the map is "useless" or whatever you want to call it. I was in the glowing sea for those 2 quests as well and then I never went back. So what? That's fine. If you want to spend another 100 hours uselessly wandering through the glowing sea, that's your problem but it doesn't mean the game doesn't have enough content. In fact, I am hoping (and expecting) the same for Starfield. Give me all that possibility to go places without forcing me to. If there are only, say, 20 planets out of those 1000, which have actual hand crated content on them, that's perfectly fine if that content also gives me 150 hours of quests to do. Perfect. Everything else would be completely overblown expectations. The rest is for addons and modders. d ) As for the quest and dungeon quality, well, bit of a matter of taste there. I do agree that it wasn't all super inspired but there were definitely fun moments in it and honestly, I haven't really played a Bethesda game where the stories were super brilliant. In Bethesda games, IMO the story is more of a background thing that gets you a hook to explore their worlds. And in that regard, FO4 IMO wasn't worse than, say, Skyrim or Oblivion. For Starfield, I don't expect more or less than that.
I really do wonder what people expect from games that are already that huge. It's a bit ridiculous IMO.
What I expect sir, is games to stop being so fucking big for literally no reason. Every damn open world game does this, and I'm sick of it. They make giant landmasses and copy and paste like 40 hours of curated content across it's size to artificially create 140, 200, 1000 hour grind fests that only serve to drain away a players time doing busy work. The fact that you think it's entirely acceptable, to have literally a quarter of a games map just sit there, and be useless is fucking insanity, and just speaks to how conditioned everyone is to just accept this garbage. Just because a map is gigantic does not mean it's good, or that it's well designed, or that it's even desirable. I wandered the Glowing Sea because I wanted to know why it was even in the fucking game to begin with. I thought "okay there must be quests out here, why else would this giant section of map even be here?" But no, it's just there, for no reason. Probably months of work for some level designer and it just sits there taking up file space when it could have simply been cut entirely and the work that went into it diverted to something actually useful. That's what I spent all my hours in game doing, wandering around looking for quests that didn't exist, and wondering why whole sections of the map even existed when there was nothing for massive swaths of time. Game worlds should only be as big as the developer needs to implement the content they have. What's actually ridiculous is how no one realizes what a colossal waste of time and manhours so much of open world design actually is, because people are under the wrong idea that Dollars Per Hour is a great metric of a games quality. While I do agree that some open worlds in the past were probably "too big for their own good", I disagree on the general principle that open worlds should always be only just big enough to be densely filled with content all around. I do that on two counts: 1. More generally, you'd end up only with very "theme park" feeling open world games, that seem to guide you from spot to spot. Sometimes, it is nice having a bit of downtime. Hell, I actually often enjoy doing a little bit of the "busy work" especially when I just want to play a game for a hour or so after getting back from work or sports or whatever and I don't want to get into the quests and NPC dialogue and all that. Sometimes (actually more and more often for me lately) I like to just harvest some resources in No Man's Sky or - yes even that - do some question marks in Assassin's Creed Odyssey. I do agree that there are not quite enough dense open worlds in recent years and those games are nice at times as well (I thought e.g. Elex 2 was a nicely sized world recently) but still, sometimes the bigger worlds are also nice to have and IMO there a place for both. 2. My second point is specific to both, Fallout 4 and Starfield (though it also goes for other games like e.g. RDR2). And that point is: In those games I would say that the emptier areas are there for very good and very specific reasons. Take the Glowing Sea or the Wastelands in Fallout 4 for example. Yes, there were only a few quests in there and you had to walk a long ways to get to the relevant NPCs but that was part of the point. The Glowing Wastes especially. Though it's been a few years, I do remember making my way through that hostile irradiated wasteland to that bunker where the quests were, fighting Rad-Scorpoins on they and hoping I'll make it there. That was a cool experience and it was essential for relaying the idea behind the Glownig Sea, namely that it is a hostile empty wasteland. If that bunker had been just a few meters of the outskirts of Boston, that would have never worked. That empty space had a reason for being there. Same with e.g. the wide prairie fields and forests in Red Dead Redemption 2 for example. The idea that you can range around the land is sold only by that space being there.
Now, I don't know how exactly Starfield will pan out but from what I've seen so far, I do think they really want to get the point across that Space is HUGE and that we are a tiny explorer within it. We can go wherever we want but the whole expanse of it is all but mind numbing. So here as well, I feel all that space has a very crucial purpose and honestly, I'd much much rather have in this type of game than not.
So yea, For both Follout and Starfield, I am absolutely 100% for expansive maps, even if they are a little more empty in places and it's then up to us, to pick and choose where we really want to go and how we want to experience the game.
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Post by smilesja on Jun 13, 2022 22:38:02 GMT
Besides, Bethesda is a master at open world. The only other developer that matches them is Rockstar. Skyrim and 4 had a lot of things to do and things to explore doesn't make it not an RPG just a different kind of RPG.
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Post by azarhal on Jun 13, 2022 23:08:29 GMT
Infinite handcrafted content! But seriously, I think some people just think game space should be equally used, because it's a concept pushed by certain devs. But Bethesda never cared. Saying that, I do think Fallout 4 is the worst Fallout, but quest density or the settlement system isn't why. Oh make no mistake, the terrible quest density or settlement system makes up a very very small percentage of what makes Fallout 4 bad, but they are very much symptoms of the actual reasons. Also, that never having been Bethesda is simply not accurate. Morrowind is very much so a case of that. Even Oblivion is more content relevant space than not. We should technically start with Arena and Daggerfall where not using fast travel to avoid going through the empty wilderness almost requires being a masochist. In Morrowind, the quest/content density is way higher in the Southern section of the map than the Northern one. The Red Mountains/calderas area doesn't have much either. It less or more follow the population density vs wilderness/barren volcanic areas. I think it feels organic. Oblivion feels like they measured distance between fort/ruins/village/city/caves to make sure there was one every 10 feet. From what I remember, that was done in response to some criticisms about Morrowind over content density. So I'll give you Oblivion, it feels fake thought. They also didn't continue that in Skyrim, they went back to a more organic design with some regions having lower content density than others. I didn't play Fallout 4 long enough to see content density depreciation in certain areas. I stopped playing because I was too annoyed by all the buildings I couldn't enter, the bandit bosses who were one-shooting me when I was just trying to explore randomly near my hometown and I really didn't like the dialogue system. I didn't even make it to Boston. In the case of Starfield, I think Arena/Daggerfall are probably more relevant. Space is mostly empty, so we will have waypoints to "fast travel" to the interesting stuff we learned about/scanned to find. And planets will give us waypoints too, so we can land near the interesting things instead of trying to find them. In the gameplay trailer, the Alpha Centauri map shows a few point of interests on moons/planets and in space. I expect the Settled systems to have more handcrafted things than the unsettled ones, because that is the organic design. I also expect a crazy ton of procedural "quests" because Space Sims have those since the 90s: escorting ships, bounties, repairing/destroying things (usually satellites/probes), trading, surveillance/scanning things, etc. They can have so much stuff there that isn't even tied to factions. And I expect Constellation will have some radiant quests related to exploring the unsettled systems. edit: All this talking about Fallout 4 is making me retry it to see with my own eyes... *downloading ....*
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Post by azarhal on Jun 14, 2022 0:10:49 GMT
I was looking at the creatures shown in the trailer (via Reddit, because people are screen capping everything), and one of them looks a lot like ME1 Eden Prime "gas bag" creatures (it's called "metropus floater" in Starfield and it was diseased). Now I'm wondering if Bethesda read the same 70s scifi stuff as Bioware*. It might explain all the octopus. Also, in the interior scene with the blond lady at some desk. There are cut plushies in the bookcase behind her. That's my type of collectibles. Not that the "Liquid happiness" mug is bad either. Also, paper tissues are still a thing in 2330 it seems and she needs to pick her garbage.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Jun 14, 2022 5:45:09 GMT
I have concerns with the 1000 planet ambitions. There's obviously no way to do that without copy paste or procedural, and they better be really artful about how they make exploration worthwhile. My guess is it'll be multi region like Witcher, with only a handful of fully realized maps, but all the other planets will mostly be there for resources and just seeing new sights. Also hope they sharpen up the FP combat cause it was stiff. All the other systems look like stuff I could sink hours into and I hope they pull this off because space faring RPG is one of my fantasy ideals for a game.
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Post by azarhal on Jun 14, 2022 14:06:50 GMT
Some more stuff from the gameplay trailer. The lab at the start, they were working on pathogens. There is a big "biohazard" warning mentioning pathogens on one of the walls inside. There is a "gas bag" in a display in a later scene too. Now I'm wondering if the diseased "gas bag" seen later in combat in the trailer (the creature name start with diseased) is related. Akila, the Freestar Collective's capital, is about the side of Whiterun in Skyrim based on the pan shot of it. New Atlantis appears way bigger, but I think it has a lots of "empty space" (aka walkways). It still looks to have more population density than Akila thought. It's hard to define how big Neon is, it seems to have multiple levels and lots of hallways, like a space station, despite being down on a planet. Planets/moons can have multiple biomes, so we can't ID them via that. Also, some creatures are farming creatures (there is a poster of the big horned not!RhinoDino saying it's meant to feed the front line), so some of the fauna might show up on multiple planets. Skills: I was thinking at first that the skills were mostly +x% to everything, but it doesn't appear to be the case. In fact, looking at what we are shown, the "skills" seems to be a mix what attributes, perks and skills did in previous RPGs. Categories: Physical, Social, Combat, Science and Tech. - There seems to be multiple skills related to opening crafting/research/building options. Like Gastronomy and Ship Designer. - There are skills to increase health, endurance and carrying capacity. - The Diplomacy skill works similar to the Calm spell in Skyrim (force an NPC target below your level to stop fighting for a while) or it's inspired from Daggerfall languages skills. - Lots of +% to damage, healing, etc thought. - There doesn't seems to be any tiered systems between the skills where you need to take skills A before B. No tree here, just skills with ranks. I wonder if there are more skills like Diplomacy, something that gives you a new ability. Main story plot stuff/spoilers The scenes when a ship land and a dude says "You found something" and Sumalee Montano* says "The new guy found it". Well that guy is part of Constellation (see his shoulder patch) and the ship looks like the player character (aka the New Guy) ship. I have no idea what happens to that character, because he's not with the others at Constellation HQ, but it seems we inherit his ship early in the game...and his mission I guess.
*A voice actress name, since the voice sound very much like hers.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jun 14, 2022 15:43:37 GMT
a) I find it enormously funny that you would spend 100s of hours in a game you are so mad about because of it's lack of content. I mean, seriously? b ) I played through FO4 once and did everything (all quests, explored just about every dungeon, I even build out the settlements enough to be self sufficient but no more). According to my Steam Library that took me 153 hours. It's one of the games in my Steam library I spent the most hours in for a single playthrough. In that time, I had a lot of fun and never ran out of content. Yes, building the settlements there was slightly repetitive but I did them in between other quests so it was no bother at all. So that was my experience with the game. I hope you'll not tell me that it is "wrong" in some way.
c) I don't care that half the map is "useless" or whatever you want to call it. I was in the glowing sea for those 2 quests as well and then I never went back. So what? That's fine. If you want to spend another 100 hours uselessly wandering through the glowing sea, that's your problem but it doesn't mean the game doesn't have enough content. In fact, I am hoping (and expecting) the same for Starfield. Give me all that possibility to go places without forcing me to. If there are only, say, 20 planets out of those 1000, which have actual hand crated content on them, that's perfectly fine if that content also gives me 150 hours of quests to do. Perfect. Everything else would be completely overblown expectations. The rest is for addons and modders. d ) As for the quest and dungeon quality, well, bit of a matter of taste there. I do agree that it wasn't all super inspired but there were definitely fun moments in it and honestly, I haven't really played a Bethesda game where the stories were super brilliant. In Bethesda games, IMO the story is more of a background thing that gets you a hook to explore their worlds. And in that regard, FO4 IMO wasn't worse than, say, Skyrim or Oblivion. For Starfield, I don't expect more or less than that.
I really do wonder what people expect from games that are already that huge. It's a bit ridiculous IMO.
What I expect sir, is games to stop being so fucking big for literally no reason. Every damn open world game does this, and I'm sick of it. They make giant landmasses and copy and paste like 40 hours of curated content across it's size to artificially create 140, 200, 1000 hour grind fests that only serve to drain away a players time doing busy work. The fact that you think it's entirely acceptable, to have literally a quarter of a games map just sit there, and be useless is fucking insanity, and just speaks to how conditioned everyone is to just accept this garbage. Just because a map is gigantic does not mean it's good, or that it's well designed, or that it's even desirable. I wandered the Glowing Sea because I wanted to know why it was even in the fucking game to begin with. I thought "okay there must be quests out here, why else would this giant section of map even be here?" But no, it's just there, for no reason. Probably months of work for some level designer and it just sits there taking up file space when it could have simply been cut entirely and the work that went into it diverted to something actually useful. That's what I spent all my hours in game doing, wandering around looking for quests that didn't exist, and wondering why whole sections of the map even existed when there was nothing for massive swaths of time. Game worlds should only be as big as the developer needs to implement the content they have. What's actually ridiculous is how no one realizes what a colossal waste of time and manhours so much of open world design actually is, because people are under the wrong idea that Dollars Per Hour is a great metric of a games quality. Has some merit. The average Bethesda world has kinda condensed down to quite acceptable density levels. It's not quests per sq. km but having interesting world to discover and play in.
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