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Post by vindur on May 11, 2017 12:04:53 GMT
Not chiming in on the discussion about whether or not the Warden's ever coming back(they aren't), I'll instead give you some Warden-related perspectives I had while playing Inquisition. "Man, my warden would verbally and probably physically slap the shit out of Vivienne for the ignorant nonsense she's spouting at Blackwall about the wardens being useless. He would drag her down to the deep roads, show her a broodmother, tell her exactly how they were made, and tell her 'that's you without us.'" "Man, my warden would slap the shit out of Clarel for being such a gullible idiot. Good on Loghain, though. I knew recruiting him was the right decision." "Man, Bioware's really trying to make me dislike the wardens to shill they're new pet faction. It's a shame the inquisition will never hold a candle to the wardens in my heart. If anything they're going to make me dislike them for doing such a disservice to their greatest creation." "Man, my warden would slap the shit out of Solas for this vague nonsense about how killing the sleeping old gods is a bad idea. Offer a better solution or shut the hell up, you pretentious prick." "Flemeth, I do not care how much this game is trying to cast you as the misunderstood anti-heroine, I don't care how much they try and sweep the whole, raping wilder men thing under the rug, if you don't leave my Warden's son & babymomma alone, he is going to kill you harder than last time." "Goddamnit, Solas robbed my Warden of a papa wolf moment. Jackass." "Wait. Dread Wolf? Oh shit, are they actually going with the idea that killing the old gods is going to make the situation worse? Goddamnit it, this is Wrath of the Lich King all over again. Of all the stupid, inane, pointless plot twists they could have gone with, they go with that? Because god forbid Solas be wrong about something." Think that about sums up the Warden-related thoughts I had throughout Inquisition. I sure thought about punching the fuck outta people with my dear Warden throughout Inquisition. Flemeth for still being a manipulating piece of shit. Vivienne because she's an ass licker wrapped in magic self-hating. Sera for being another self-hating massive racist against Elfs (although she's the funniest and gets it right with nobility as a whole). Cassandra for being a Chantry-lover diehard. Solas... well I actually like him. Morrigan is still the only truly worth saving there (and Kieran ofc)
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Pain Delta
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Post by Pain Delta on May 11, 2017 13:19:28 GMT
Of course, I mean, I've always liked me a good story about an specific human social drama, better than this grandilocuent obscure mythologies some authors stick out of their minds in a totally crazy/flamboyant way with no real creativity... but that doesn't mean I don't like a well structured mytology, and there's a lot of strength in some human myths you can get a thrilling to discover, being sometimes key to understand the origin of many fundamental human phenomena. But if you go for an epic saga with lots of mythological references, go straight ahead and do it right. Dragon Age 2 has sure more of a social tint within the game, but it takes real talent and effort to make a good social/historical issues story worthy of your time. I mean, authors like Gorki and Sean O'Casey could do that just with a great effort hahahaha And then, when you outright insert such a game in a saga which has more of a mythological character than anything... I'm not sure, at all, of the worth of Dragon Age 2. I didn't like it, to be honest. And not only because of this greatly odd contradiction alone and, as I see it, being a low-effort game. I still went through the game and enjoyed my time; Dragon Age lore, ambient, and charismatic characters are still there and I couldn't miss how the videogames canon advances. But the point is still there: it's an indolent, slothful game, taking it into consideration from a DA canon focus. The ''commercial mentality'' thing I was talking about was just directed to something obvious for BioWare: you need new heroes and the appearance of novelty to lure new players into the series. It's not profitable to stick with one hero or two and make every new player go through two previous games and pages and pages of codex of their story to at least have a slight clue of what story are they into. That's what I meant I like this conversation so We Are Derailing !! I'm allowed to derail if I do it with the OP, right? I don't think DA2 is necessarily "slothful", implying it drags on. It isn't a long game, shortest in the series, though it takes place over a long period of time technically. It felt miles more substantial than Inquisition, anyway. I mean there are no crazy world-shattering revelations made during the timeframe, but there are meaningful character revelations made and a lot of them. Sure, you learn about another darkspawn emissary like The Architect existed that the Wardens knew about was kept locked up underground with blood magic, but that wasn't important to me really as much as how it effected Anders view of the Chantry, or how regretful Hawke is about it in Inquisition. (I don't like that Hawke was in Inquisition, but I did like the regret towards releasing ol' Coryfish in the first place) DA2 is... reactive comparatively to most games, I guess? Hawke doesn't really actively DO things after Act 1 as much as they react to things companions do, or what the Viscount wants them to do. You feel rather powerless and aimless because you aren't shaping the world or making Meaningful Choices tm but I love that, much more than I like having this weird authority to just... do whatever I want in Inquisition. Back to the commercial thing, I think it is moreso about roleplayers than accessibility for new people? In one worldstate I can have three different characters of different personalities and families and friends and companions and enemies. Like I like Mass Effect and Shepard and all that but I was happy to move to Andromeda with a new personality and new companions, it gets me invested again. Like it is too late now, but what I wish is that old characters would very rarely come back. THAT is what feels commercial to me. Like I love Leliana, she is my romance choice, but did she really need to be my spymaster? And Cullen as my warchief? And Varric is in my inner circle? Morrigan is my magical adviser, and happens to be the one to reveal the Eluvian's purpose? And (through metaknowledge) Sten is the Arishok too? Hawke HAS to be our Warden connection? And that Warden is someone we met before too? We get to choose who gets to be Divine, and it just so happens to be within my inner circle? Like I wish we very rarely came across important characters from the previous game besides a mention or small cameo, and didn't get the authority to make big Choices just to feel important and have our player character do basically everything important in Thedas.
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vindur
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Post by vindur on May 11, 2017 14:26:06 GMT
Of course, I mean, I've always liked me a good story about an specific human social drama, better than this grandilocuent obscure mythologies some authors stick out of their minds in a totally crazy/flamboyant way with no real creativity... but that doesn't mean I don't like a well structured mytology, and there's a lot of strength in some human myths you can get a thrilling to discover, being sometimes key to understand the origin of many fundamental human phenomena. But if you go for an epic saga with lots of mythological references, go straight ahead and do it right. Dragon Age 2 has sure more of a social tint within the game, but it takes real talent and effort to make a good social/historical issues story worthy of your time. I mean, authors like Gorki and Sean O'Casey could do that just with a great effort hahahaha And then, when you outright insert such a game in a saga which has more of a mythological character than anything... I'm not sure, at all, of the worth of Dragon Age 2. I didn't like it, to be honest. And not only because of this greatly odd contradiction alone and, as I see it, being a low-effort game. I still went through the game and enjoyed my time; Dragon Age lore, ambient, and charismatic characters are still there and I couldn't miss how the videogames canon advances. But the point is still there: it's an indolent, slothful game, taking it into consideration from a DA canon focus. The ''commercial mentality'' thing I was talking about was just directed to something obvious for BioWare: you need new heroes and the appearance of novelty to lure new players into the series. It's not profitable to stick with one hero or two and make every new player go through two previous games and pages and pages of codex of their story to at least have a slight clue of what story are they into. That's what I meant I like this conversation so We Are Derailing !! I'm allowed to derail if I do it with the OP, right? I don't think DA2 is necessarily "slothful", implying it drags on. It isn't a long game, shortest in the series, though it takes place over a long period of time technically. It felt miles more substantial than Inquisition, anyway. I mean there are no crazy world-shattering revelations made during the timeframe, but there are meaningful character revelations made and a lot of them. Sure, you learn about another darkspawn emissary like The Architect existed that the Wardens knew about was kept locked up underground with blood magic, but that wasn't important to me really as much as how it effected Anders view of the Chantry, or how regretful Hawke is about it in Inquisition. (I don't like that Hawke was in Inquisition, but I did like the regret towards releasing ol' Coryfish in the first place) DA2 is... reactive comparatively to most games, I guess? Hawke doesn't really actively DO things after Act 1 as much as they react to things companions do, or what the Viscount wants them to do. You feel rather powerless and aimless because you aren't shaping the world or making Meaningful Choices tm but I love that, much more than I like having this weird authority to just... do whatever I want in Inquisition. Back to the commercial thing, I think it is moreso about roleplayers than accessibility for new people? In one worldstate I can have three different characters of different personalities and families and friends and companions and enemies. Like I like Mass Effect and Shepard and all that but I was happy to move to Andromeda with a new personality and new companions, it gets me invested again. Like it is too late now, but what I wish is that old characters would very rarely come back. THAT is what feels commercial to me. Like I love Leliana, she is my romance choice, but did she really need to be my spymaster? And Cullen as my warchief? And Varric is in my inner circle? Morrigan is my magical adviser, and happens to be the one to reveal the Eluvian's purpose? And (through metaknowledge) Sten is the Arishok too? Hawke HAS to be our Warden connection? And that Warden is someone we met before too? We get to choose who gets to be Divine, and it just so happens to be within my inner circle? Like I wish we very rarely came across important characters from the previous game besides a mention or small cameo, and didn't get the authority to make big Choices just to feel important and have our player character do basically everything important in Thedas. Well... sincerely you made me look at it from another perspective. I also have that feeling, that itch behind my ear with Inquisition. Why should I decide absolutely fucking everything? Who sacrifices himself in the Fade, how do we approach Dorian's father invitation to speak with him, who gets elected as a Divine (although I didn't choose it, I supported Leliana but Vivienne got elected for example) etc. That didn't feel right. This is probably why I love so much the encounter with Ameridan in Jaws of Hakkon. Not only because Ameridan looks exactly like what my Warden would look like if he was 30 years older or his great story, but because when he begins to talk about how he didn't choose the role of Inquisitor, one of the options of the conversation you can choose to respond is the ''sad'' one (with the symbol of the eye in tears) in which you tell him you agree: the Inquisitor role was imposed to you and has taken over your life. Everyone looks up to you even to search answers for their personal problems, and the responsibility is overwhelming. That's one of the precious details that make Inquisition, for me, a good DA game. In Dragon Age 2, I can't but admit that it has its ''little chioces of little lifes'' charming. And the social value of its argument is still agreeable for me. The obvious reference to the anarchist propaganda by the deed of Anders, the mage-templar hostility, the Fenris issue with Tevinter slavery... yes, they are great. But I always felt like the other Dragon Age games were able to include part of those issues in a bigger scheme which was always the priority. There are plenty greater formats and works and pieces of art that deal better with directly social human dramas. I don't even think more mythology-charged stories are something totally distinct from others with a more social drive. Myths are human social products, inconscious bits of historical remembrances or memories aimed to give an answer to phenomena whose roots we have long forgot. They are also ''social'' issues. And the Elven People mythology and history, the Andrastine revolt and faith or the Golden City transgression have a direct political impact in Origins and Inquisition, while being obvious references to our history (the Elves and what happened to them are an obvious reference, for me, to the Egyptian, Jew and Pagan peoples) Maybe we are talking here about an old object of discussion: how much can videogames get near to the ''ranking'' of art, of literature or cinema for example. I also like like this conversation btw, and don't care if it derails from the original purpose of the thread hahahaha
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Post by Iddy on May 11, 2017 14:32:50 GMT
DA2 is... reactive comparatively to most games, I guess? Hawke doesn't really actively DO things after Act 1 as much as they react to things companions do, or what the Viscount wants them to do. You feel rather powerless and aimless because you aren't shaping the world or making Meaningful Choices tm but I love that, much more than I like having this weird authority to just... do whatever I want in Inquisition. That's exactly what makes Hawke this average and relatable person we love. Reacting to events is what most of us do.
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Pain Delta
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Post by Pain Delta on May 11, 2017 16:12:57 GMT
I like this conversation so We Are Derailing !! I'm allowed to derail if I do it with the OP, right? I don't think DA2 is necessarily "slothful", implying it drags on. It isn't a long game, shortest in the series, though it takes place over a long period of time technically. It felt miles more substantial than Inquisition, anyway. I mean there are no crazy world-shattering revelations made during the timeframe, but there are meaningful character revelations made and a lot of them. Sure, you learn about another darkspawn emissary like The Architect existed that the Wardens knew about was kept locked up underground with blood magic, but that wasn't important to me really as much as how it effected Anders view of the Chantry, or how regretful Hawke is about it in Inquisition. (I don't like that Hawke was in Inquisition, but I did like the regret towards releasing ol' Coryfish in the first place) DA2 is... reactive comparatively to most games, I guess? Hawke doesn't really actively DO things after Act 1 as much as they react to things companions do, or what the Viscount wants them to do. You feel rather powerless and aimless because you aren't shaping the world or making Meaningful Choices tm but I love that, much more than I like having this weird authority to just... do whatever I want in Inquisition. Back to the commercial thing, I think it is moreso about roleplayers than accessibility for new people? In one worldstate I can have three different characters of different personalities and families and friends and companions and enemies. Like I like Mass Effect and Shepard and all that but I was happy to move to Andromeda with a new personality and new companions, it gets me invested again. Like it is too late now, but what I wish is that old characters would very rarely come back. THAT is what feels commercial to me. Like I love Leliana, she is my romance choice, but did she really need to be my spymaster? And Cullen as my warchief? And Varric is in my inner circle? Morrigan is my magical adviser, and happens to be the one to reveal the Eluvian's purpose? And (through metaknowledge) Sten is the Arishok too? Hawke HAS to be our Warden connection? And that Warden is someone we met before too? We get to choose who gets to be Divine, and it just so happens to be within my inner circle? Like I wish we very rarely came across important characters from the previous game besides a mention or small cameo, and didn't get the authority to make big Choices just to feel important and have our player character do basically everything important in Thedas. Well... sincerely you made me look at it from another perspective. I also have that feeling, that itch behind my ear with Inquisition. Why should I decide absolutely fucking everything? Who sacrifices himself in the Fade, how do we approach Dorian's father invitation to speak with him, who gets elected as a Divine (although I didn't choose it, I supported Leliana but Vivienne got elected for example) etc. That didn't feel right. This is probably why I love so much the encounter with Ameridan in Jaws of Hakkon. Not only because Ameridan looks exactly like what my Warden would look like if he was 30 years older or his great story, but because when he begins to talk about how he didn't choose the role of Inquisitor, one of the options of the conversation you can choose to respond is the ''sad'' one (with the symbol of the eye in tears) in which you tell him you agree: the Inquisitor role was imposed to you and has taken over your life. Everyone looks up to you even to search answers for their personal problems, and the responsibility is overwhelming. That's one of the precious details that make Inquisition, for me, a good DA game. In Dragon Age 2, I can't but admit that it has its ''little chioces of little lifes'' charming. And the social value of its argument is still agreeable for me. The obvious reference to the anarchist propaganda by the deed of Anders, the mage-templar hostility, the Fenris issue with Tevinter slavery... yes, they are great. But I always felt like the other Dragon Age games were able to include part of those issues in a bigger scheme which was always the priority. There are plenty greater formats and works and pieces of art that deal better with directly social human dramas. I don't even think more mythology-charged stories are something totally distinct from others with a more social drive. Myths are human social products, inconscious bits of historical remembrances or memories aimed to give an answer to phenomena whose roots we have long forgot. They are also ''social'' issues. And the Elven People mythology and history, the Andrastine revolt and faith or the Golden City transgression have a direct political impact in Origins and Inquisition, while being obvious references to our history (the Elves and what happened to them are an obvious reference, for me, to the Egyptian, Jew and Pagan peoples) Maybe we are talking here about an old object of discussion: how much can videogames get near to the ''ranking'' of art, of literature or cinema for example. I also like like this conversation btw, and don't care if it derails from the original purpose of the thread hahahaha I think ultimately both our preferences can't exist without the other anyway, I mean, for us to care about the world we have to care about the characters, and we care about the characters because of how they were shaped and react to the world. An interesting world produces interesting characters, which I think Dragon Age succeeded at for all its faults. Hawke's story and tragedy wouldn't be as interesting without the enigma of Kirkwall (one of my fav Codex entries) which was, unfortunately, a concept not really explored outside of the Codex and a few lines of dialogue. Blood Mages are literally more powerful just for being in Kirkwall, and can do more with less blood. Demons were always able to possess the magicless, but in Kirkwall demons WANT to possess them when they otherwise wouldn't. People are more prone to madness, just for living in Kirkwall long enough. Kirkwall has had consistent violent rebellions before DA2. There is a heavily torn veil deep underground, and the veil is weak in general. There are so many implications from just this, especially considering the end, but it is never really integrated into the game. Kirkwall was also described as a maze, and was supposed to be made of imposing jet black stone which would've been amazing visually and enhance the mood. On the other side of the coin, The Descent DLC for Inquisition had really amazing world and lore implications: That lyrium itself is the blood of Titans (blood magic !!), that those Titans are waking up underground violently, that dwarves can become mages by interacting with these Titans and potentially become connected to the Fade (There is also a theory going back to DA2 that the casteless are descendants of dwarven mages, but that is unrelated to the point I'm making I just like it lol). Anyway, that DLC fucking sucked. It sucked because Valta becomes the dwarven equivalent of a mage and she was just like "I live here now bye" and then you leave her and no one cares or is effected by this revelation at all. I mean, it will PROBABLY come up again but that DLC could've been so much better with more... honestly I don't even know. The DLC was just an infodump. And there is something to be said about how the world of Thedas is an imperfect reflection of our world in regards to oppression (sexism even when they worship a figurative Joan of Arc, implied a lack of human racism but Cole comments negatively on Vivienne's skin color, etc), but I've rambled a lot lol Honestly it is weird that people don't think videogames are art still, tho it is helpful to remember that cinema used to not be art not that long ago. Movies were seen as a group effort thus seen as lacking vision (much like videogames are) with the ultimate goal of casual consumer entertainment (much like videogames are) and are mass produced (less of a modern concern as far as art goes, but still lol). There isn't really any good reason they aren't art, and if anything it is people who like videogames who are largely against it because it would legitimize critics.
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Post by shechinah on May 11, 2017 17:35:20 GMT
That's what I'm talking about. Hawke's and the Warden's role in Inquisition could perfectly have been switched. A more direct role of the Warden and a more ''in the shadows'' role of Hawke (if DA2 had been centered in the Warden again and not in a hero-outta-nowhere as it was). That's what I was talking about with all the Dragon Age 2 issue thing (besides the optional death of the Warden). The problem for many players is that they are not ok with ''the Warden staying that way''. For us it's just as weird as if we had a Witcher's saga in which Geralt died at the end of the first videogame or in the beginning of the second one, for example, to add more random awfulness to the perspective. Origins DLCs exist because of something, and many of us believed they were what they obviously seemed to be, a great BRIDGE to continue the Warden's story, whom we see as the real protagonist of the videogames canon. The argument that it would be weird to bring back a 10 years old character has no sense for me. Hawke is 6 years old now, Morrigan and Leliana are 10 years old too, and there you have them on the front line. And my main argument also is that if they had got it the right way in Dragon Age 2, we wouldn't be talking about prolonged absences anyway. I always saw Dragon Age: Origin as the origin of the Dragon Age series hence why each playable origin introduces you to a different aspect of the Dragon Age universe. I never saw it as the origin of the Warden's character especially since one of the canon endings is the death of the Warden. Awakening provided the possibility to play as an Orlesian Warden including to play through the DLCs so those didn't change my perception. I am one of the plenty of other players who like the changing protagonists. I think it serves the Dragon Age universe and its story the best: it allows for stories exploring different aspects and themes. You can't have the personal story of a simple slave climbing above that status in the Tevinter Imperium with the Warden. You can't have the story of someone simply trying to get by and survive with the Warden. So on and so on. There is also the matter of companions which, to my knowledge, do not exist in the Witcher series as they do in Dragon Age. Additionally, you have the issue of past events, decisions and roleplaying becoming baggage eventually with a continued protagonist that bogs down the story as the writers have to accommondate all of the aforementioned things which often come at a cost. There were far more a few cases of this in Mass Effect which was noticeable and then there's the matter of Shepard's character over the course of the games. Based on what I've heard, the Witcher series' import system also didn't create significant changes. An example is how Roche apparently does not react or make mention of Geralt siding with Iorveth. So personally, I hope that the Dragon Age series continued to have a new protagonist and cast in each game.
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Post by luketrevelyan on May 11, 2017 19:58:43 GMT
The Grey Warden remains my favorite protagonist of any game to this day and definitely the one I connected to the most. Still, after I completed DAO, DAA, and all the DLC I was content with my character being done.
I think having new protagonists keeps things more interesting and it certainly reduces some of the constraints on the story.
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vindur
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Post by vindur on May 11, 2017 20:58:36 GMT
Lots of great responses to take into consideration here, so I'll sum up a little.
Maybe I exaggerated a bit with the Elric of Melniboné/Witcher examples. I'm totally ok with having more than one hero on a universe as vast as Dragon Age, shechinah says it would be impossible to experiment all of the Thedas realities and societies otherwise... BUT, you know, still think someone so many people find so relatable as the Origins Warden deserved more development into his/her implication in Thedas destiny, which judging by that poisoned candy of Awakening and Witch Hunt DLC it was reasonable to think it was gonna be greater than it is.
Answering to PainDelta, I think we reached a point of agreement here:
Ultimately this is probably the best virtue of Dragon Age. It gets everyday-people of a fantastic world involved in events that shake the roots of their very existence while they discover more and more of the lore and the myths relating the events of the past that shaped the world they live in.
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