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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 12, 2017 15:33:47 GMT
That is interesting that the Knight Commander has legal authority to annul a circle if there is no Grand Cleric in position. That's quite a loop hole. So the repeated calls to annul Kirkwall even though denied - no one in authority cared enough to investigate Meredith, The Grand Cleric and what was really going on in the circle. The fault is Meredith, Orsino, Grand Cleric, Divine and the system of the circle. On one hand typical bureaucrat/Corporate behavior with bad news not geting to the top and if it does it is ignores. Good for Anders - I'm more in his camp. And Anders. It is Anders' fault as well due to act of terrorism that caused the situation. Though I disagree that the Divine or even the system are at fault. After all you say the Divine never investigated but she sent Leliana to do just that. Remember it would take weeks for Leliana to get from Kirkwall to Val Royeaux to report back so by the time she did everything had gone down.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 12, 2017 15:38:46 GMT
Elthina, Meredith, Orsino and Ser Alric were not suitable in their positions. Don't those guys have yearly reviews? Orsino wasn't a leader and never wanted to be. He only took the First Enchanter's position, because nobody else took that under Meredith, but he thought, that the Mages need someone who tries to represent their interest too, and his main intention was to reduce the number of suicides (his love committed suicidal – she burned herself). ("Knight-Commander Meredith was of the opinion that there was no need for a new First Enchanter as the Templars ran the Gallows with little interference from Maceron. Orsino realized that the mages would need someone to advocate on their behalf lest the Templars rob what few liberties they had left. Thus Orsino volunteered to be the First Enchanter, and the other senior enchanters rallied behind him. Some claim he became the youngest first enchanter to hold the position in Kirkwall not by his own merit, but because nobody else wanted it.")How does that make him exempt at not being suitable for his position? If anything you supported that he wasn't suitable.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 12, 2017 15:54:06 GMT
Orsino wasn't a leader and never wanted to be. He only took the First Enchanter's position, because nobody else took that under Meredith, but he thought, that the Mages need someone who tries to represent their interest too, and his main intention was to reduce the number of suicides (his love committed suicidal – she burned herself). ("Knight-Commander Meredith was of the opinion that there was no need for a new First Enchanter as the Templars ran the Gallows with little interference from Maceron. Orsino realized that the mages would need someone to advocate on their behalf lest the Templars rob what few liberties they had left. Thus Orsino volunteered to be the First Enchanter, and the other senior enchanters rallied behind him. Some claim he became the youngest first enchanter to hold the position in Kirkwall not by his own merit, but because nobody else wanted it.")How does that make him exempt at not being suitable for his position? If anything you supported that he wasn't suitable. I didn't argue with that, this is an addition. He tried his best, but he didn't have enough room for maneuver, and as I said, he wasn't a leader. I can't blame him. He was a slave, as everyone in the Gallows-prisons (and in the other Circles too).
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 12, 2017 15:56:01 GMT
How does that make him exempt at not being suitable for his position? If anything you supported that he wasn't suitable. I didn't argue with that, this is an addition. He tried his best, but he didn't have enough room for maneuver, and as I said, he wasn't a leader. I can't blame him. He was a slave. I meant to quote the post where @dustyelf said that exempted him from that list. My apologies. He is still to blame though. He did things that helped lead to this situation, like helping out a serial killer because he was a mage.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 12, 2017 15:59:57 GMT
I didn't argue with that, this is an addition. He tried his best, but he didn't have enough room for maneuver, and as I said, he wasn't a leader. I can't blame him. He was a slave. I meant to quote the post where @dustyelf said that exempted him from that list. My apologies. He is still to blame though. He did things that helped lead to this situation, like helping out a serial killer because he was a mage. Why would he help to meredith against an apostate, his fellow? This would a betrayal. His only sin is, that he was not a traitor.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 12, 2017 16:03:09 GMT
I meant to quote the post where @dustyelf said that exempted him from that list. My apologies. He is still to blame though. He did things that helped lead to this situation, like helping out a serial killer because he was a mage. Why would he help to meredith against an apostate, his fellow? This would a betrayal. His only sin is, that he was not a traitor. Because that fellow is murdering innocent people so stopping him is the right thing to do. I'd say Orsino being an accomplice with maleficarum like that does make him a traitor.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 12, 2017 16:06:33 GMT
Why would he help to meredith against an apostate, his fellow? This would a betrayal. His only sin is, that he was not a traitor. Because that fellow is murdering innocent people so stopping him is the right thing to do. I'd say Orsino being an accomplice with maleficarum like that does make him a traitor. He did't know, that he's a murderer. Probably he didn't know the details Emeric's investigation. You can't blame for it... In a well-functioning system, he should cooperate with the law enforcement, but as a slave, they was his natural enemies. This is the one of the reasons, why dangerous such a system.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 12, 2017 16:09:01 GMT
And Anders. It is Anders' fault as well due to act of terrorism that caused the situation. Though I disagree that the Divine or even the system are at fault. After all you say the Divine never investigated but she sent Leliana to do just that. Remember it would take weeks for Leliana to get from Kirkwall to Val Royeaux to report back so by the time she did everything had gone down. The situation in Kirkwall didn't start when Anders arrived. There was ample time to correct it and not wait until the last minute to send Leliana. The Divine must have heard what was going on before. Disagree that Anders caused it. His was a desperate reaction to what had been going on. Sure his actions helped the mages leave the circles and the mage Templar war. But it could have been avoided. Took Orsino off list because he was unable to do anything not because he was corrupt or inept like Meredith, Elthina and Ser Alrik. True, though it's because of him that it reached the breaking point when he murdered hundreds of innocent people. Not really. With Kirkwall being as corrupt as it is, I can see messages not getting through until so much happens that it is finally revealed. Orsino was inept. Even Caitlina agrees with that. Then you disagree with the facts of the game. Anders caused it. That was his plan. Interesting how you hate Meredith killing tons of innocent people and yet you praise Anders for it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 12, 2017 16:10:55 GMT
Because that fellow is murdering innocent people so stopping him is the right thing to do. I'd say Orsino being an accomplice with maleficarum like that does make him a traitor. He did't know, that he's a murderer. Probably he didn't know the details Emeric's investigation. You can't blame for it... In a well-functioning system, he should cooperate with the law enforcement, but as a slave, they was his natural enemies. This is the one of the reasons, why dangerous such a system. I sure can, because he is partially to blame for it. It's because of people like Orsino that it isn't a well-functioning system, so that isn't a defense. He is a traitor, plain and simple. It was a mistake by Bioware to hide that info to only those who side with Meredith.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 12, 2017 16:17:28 GMT
The situation in Kirkwall didn't start when Anders arrived. There was ample time to correct it and not wait until the last minute to send Leliana. The Divine must have heard what was going on before. Disagree that Anders caused it. His was a desperate reaction to what had been going on. Sure his actions helped the mages leave the circles and the mage Templar war. But it could have been avoided. Took Orsino off list because he was unable to do anything not because he was corrupt or inept like Meredith, Elthina and Ser Alrik. True, though it's because of him that it reached the breaking point when he murdered hundreds of innocent people. Not really. With Kirkwall being as corrupt as it is, I can see messages not getting through until so much happens that it is finally revealed. Orsino was inept. Even Caitlina agrees with that. Then you disagree with the facts of the game. Anders caused it. That was his plan. Interesting how you hate Meredith killing tons of innocent people and yet you praise Anders for it. Orsino wasn't a leader. He wasn't the best First Enchanter, but he try his best, in this miserable situation. He tried to keep alive his fellows, keep the peace in the Circle, and keep the secret of the apostates. He wanted too much, and as I said: his room for maneuver was very limited.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 12, 2017 16:19:20 GMT
True, though it's because of him that it reached the breaking point when he murdered hundreds of innocent people. Not really. With Kirkwall being as corrupt as it is, I can see messages not getting through until so much happens that it is finally revealed. Orsino was inept. Even Caitlina agrees with that. Then you disagree with the facts of the game. Anders caused it. That was his plan. Interesting how you hate Meredith killing tons of innocent people and yet you praise Anders for it. Orsino wasn't a leader. He wasn't the best First Enchanter, but he try his best, in this miserable situation. He tried to keep alive his fellows, keep the peace in the Circle, and keep the secret of the apostates. He wanted too much, and as I said: his room for maneuver was very limited. Doesn't matter. That doesn't excuse him of the crimes he committed or his part in everything falling apart. He's not a guileless victim.
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Post by themikefest on Sept 12, 2017 16:19:50 GMT
Anders is an idiot. He thinks its a good idea to merge with a spirit. He gets bent out of shape if Hawke disagrees with him once out of a number of times. Its his way or the highway. I wouldn't be surprised if he blew up the chantry even if he didn't merge with a spirit.
Orsino is a weak pathetic little weasel. Even with Hawke at his side, he still turns himself into a big blob of crap. That's because he is crap. Emile De Launcet would have made a better First Enchanter than Orsino
Meredith is strong willed. Good leader. Unfortunately the red lyium led to her downfall. Had Cullen been at her side when she invoked the right, I believe he would have stepped in to stop her before things got out of hand.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 12, 2017 16:45:54 GMT
He did't know, that he's a murderer. Probably he didn't know the details Emeric's investigation. You can't blame for it... In a well-functioning system, he should cooperate with the law enforcement, but as a slave, they was his natural enemies. This is the one of the reasons, why dangerous such a system. I sure can, because he is partially to blame for it. It's because of people like Orsino that it isn't a well-functioning system, so that isn't a defense. He is a traitor, plain and simple. It was a mistake by Bioware to hide that info to only those who side with Meredith. He said, he got the information, when it was too late. He could have decide, if he would shut his mouth up to protect himself and the Mages in the Circle, or tell that, and Meredith will avenge – not only on him. This was not the most honest thing, what I ever seen, but what would happen, if he would tell the truth?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 12, 2017 16:53:53 GMT
I sure can, because he is partially to blame for it. It's because of people like Orsino that it isn't a well-functioning system, so that isn't a defense. He is a traitor, plain and simple. It was a mistake by Bioware to hide that info to only those who side with Meredith. He said, he got the information, when it was too late. He could have decide, if he would shut his mouth up to protect himself and the Mages in the Circle, or tell that, and Meredith will avenge – not only on him. This was not the most honest thing, what I ever seen, but what would happen, if he would tell the truth? Except it wasn't too late since the serial killer is still doing his thing even after Orsino sens him that letter. Meredith wasn't insane at that part of the story, so she wouldn't have killed all the mages in the Circle for that. Well, for starters if he told the truth innocent people like Leandra would still be alive. But I guess their lives don't matter since they aren't mages.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 12, 2017 17:00:54 GMT
Anders is an idiot. He thinks its a good idea to merge with a spirit. He gets bent out of shape if Hawke disagrees with him once out of a number of times. Its his way or the highway. I wouldn't be surprised if he blew up the chantry even if he didn't merge with a spirit.
Orsino is a weak pathetic little weasel. Even with Hawke at his side, he still turns himself into a big blob of crap. That's because he is crap. Emile De Launcet would have made a better First Enchanter than Orsino Meredith is strong willed. Good leader. Unfortunately the red lyium led to her downfall. Had Cullen been at her side when she invoked the right, I believe he would have stepped in to stop her before things got out of hand. Exactly so! Anders wanted this. People can't blame only Justice. (But Anders probably needed Justice's coldness and strong goal orientation.) Meredith a charismathic leader, who really believes, that his madness help to the people. She damaged, cruel and unsuitable. Unfortunately the red lyrium led her? She believed, that she strong enough to deal with an unknown strong magical energy... You can't blame the red lyrium. The red lyrium is a thing. Meredith was who could not resist to the temptation. just as a foolish blood mage, who become an abomination. You can't blame only the demon! If Anders is a fool, what is Meredith? Not Anders was, who lost himself, and became uncontrollable abomination... Anders liberated the Kirkwall mages and launched the revolution. Did Meredith save people from the "curse of magic"? From herself... Cullen also was damaged. He needed to face his leader's fall to be sober.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 12, 2017 17:09:28 GMT
He said, he got the information, when it was too late. He could have decide, if he would shut his mouth up to protect himself and the Mages in the Circle, or tell that, and Meredith will avenge – not only on him. This was not the most honest thing, what I ever seen, but what would happen, if he would tell the truth? Except it wasn't too late since the serial killer is still doing his thing even after Orsino sens him that letter. Meredith wasn't insane at that part of the story, so she wouldn't have killed all the mages in the Circle for that. Well, for starters if he told the truth innocent people like Leandra would still be alive. But I guess their lives don't matter since they aren't mages. Meredith was paranoid from the moment that her sister became an abomination. She was mad even before the red lyrium. Orsino couldn't expect any fair judgment from her. Her red-lyrium-rage started when Bartrand arrived from the Deep Roads, and sold her the red lyrium (Cullen said, that she behave strange).
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Post by q5tyhj on Sept 12, 2017 17:10:40 GMT
Heh yeah, Merideth's a great leader.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 12, 2017 17:27:47 GMT
Heh yeah, Merideth's a great leader. themikefest is always funny. He has a great sense of humour.
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Post by themikefest on Sept 12, 2017 18:18:15 GMT
themikefest is always funny. He has a great sense of humour. And you supporting a clown that likes to blow up a building with people in it is really ........at least I don't support that.
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Post by themikefest on Sept 12, 2017 18:21:19 GMT
Exactly so! Anders wanted this. People can't blame only Justice. (But Anders probably needed Justice's coldness and strong goal orientation.) So the clown needed a spirit to give him a pair? I can believe that.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 12, 2017 18:22:33 GMT
themikefest is always funny. He has a great sense of humour. And you supporting a clown that likes to blow up a building with people in it is really ........at least I don't support that. I can only repeat myself: If Anders is a fool, what is Meredith? Not Anders was, who lost himself, and became uncontrollable abomination... Anders fulfilled his goal: liberated the Kirkwall mages, and launched the revolution. Did Meredith save people from the "curse of magic"? From herself... You say, the the red lyrium led this brillant leader, whithout that she would be a great woman... At least I don't say, that Anders doesn't responsible for his act.
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Post by themikefest on Sept 12, 2017 18:32:54 GMT
It may of acheived his goal, but did anyone want him to blow up a building to achieve that goal?
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Post by Catilina on Sept 12, 2017 18:44:43 GMT
It may of acheived his goal, but did anyone want him to blow up a building to achieve that goal? I'm sure, yes. The revolution was necessary.
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Post by themikefest on Sept 12, 2017 18:52:47 GMT
I'm sure, yes. The revolution was necessary. Who? Was it necessary? Or is it just you showing your support for a character you like no matter what he does?
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Post by Catilina on Sept 12, 2017 19:03:54 GMT
I'm sure, yes. The revolution was necessary. Who? Was it necessary? Or is it just you showing your support for a character you like no matter what he does?I could ask you the same thing. But yes. It was necessary. My Circle Mage Wardens would support him. This system was inherently evil. Not better than the slavery. His tool was morally questionable, but worked, and his goal was good. He gave a chance to the Mages to fight for their freedom. Oranna didn't "want" her freedom, if you would asked her about Hadriana, she would stay with her. She needed Hawke to kill her master, and liberate her. Fenris didn't "want" his freedom, he escaped accidentally, but he still fought for his master. He needed a trauma to wake up.
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