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Post by Catilina on Sept 5, 2017 19:55:49 GMT
About the grey morality: the Circle system in Southern-Thedas, the slavery in Tevinter, the treatment of city elves not "grey". The people are "grey". Dorian, for example, think, that the slavery's acceptable. He told, that some slaves live better, than some peasants. Dorian's evil? Not. But the system is evil, even, if there are families, who treat their slaves as family members. A Templar, for example, who really believe, that s/he serves the good and protects people, and believe, that the Circle's necessary, isn't evil, of course. Even if s/he's not right about that. The system is evil. The circle that was being used in Ferelden and Kirkwall were bad true but the idea of circles and templars is grey. You cannot call Cassandta's view of the Chantry and mages evil it has plenty good merits. As long as it is being done right, it is a grey area And Starkhaven, and White Spire... But no. Every Circles is unacceptable. Once in Rivain worked a better one. Annulled. Never "grey area" as long as leaving the Tower temporarily is a privilege, and they and their children are Chantry property.
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Post by Finvola on Sept 5, 2017 21:09:39 GMT
I did once because I thought by not siding with the Templars I would have to kill Carver. I might have sided with them other times but that stands out in my mind because I believe that was the only time I sided with the Templars as a mage. I do like to go with different choices, I would get bored seeing the same outcome with every playthrough.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 5, 2017 23:16:12 GMT
I'm telling you, Hawke wanting to bang Meredith is the most valid reason Hawke can try but I don't think Meredith is interested There's no Hawke who can rival with her big red sword, I suppose.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 5, 2017 23:23:22 GMT
There's no Hawke who can rival with her big red sword, I suppose. Her love for that sword is her undoing, maybe she should have banged Hawke! This is a bigger problem than Arishok. My Hawke can't take so big responsibility, so he'll pass this task.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 0:57:58 GMT
My Red/Aggressive Female Mage Hawke. To spite Anders, I suppose. My canon doesn't, and in his defence, he wouldn't had defended the mages if there was an option to be neutral on that front.
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Post by tacsear on Sept 6, 2017 7:09:45 GMT
The circle that was being used in Ferelden and Kirkwall were bad true but the idea of circles and templars is grey. You cannot call Cassandta's view of the Chantry and mages evil it has plenty good merits. As long as it is being done right, it is a grey area And Starkhaven, and White Spire... But no. Every Circles is unacceptable. Once in Rivain worked a better one. Annulled. Never "grey area" as long as leaving the Tower temporarily is a privilege, and they and their children are Chantry property. Why? Because in theory they help mages to stüdyo and live in peace while protecting common people from abominations and blood mages? I really believe Cassandra can really make it work both for mages and templars.
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Post by tacsear on Sept 6, 2017 7:11:21 GMT
I'm telling you, Hawke wanting to bang Meredith is the most valid reason Not really my type, but okay. Thats... a reason. But... rivalry? Rivalary is even better. We're talking about some hardcore stuff here
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Post by Catilina on Sept 6, 2017 9:54:41 GMT
And Starkhaven, and White Spire... But no. Every Circles is unacceptable. Once in Rivain worked a better one. Annulled. Never "grey area" as long as leaving the Tower temporarily is a privilege, and they and their children are Chantry property. Why? Because in theory they help mages to stüdyo and live in peace while protecting common people from abominations and blood mages? I really believe Cassandra can really make it work both for mages and templars. In "theory", they help. In reality, the Mages are properties. As long as the Mages doesn't have authority over their own and their children's lives, the Circle's unacceptable. (The fact, that they can commit suicide, doesn't mean, that they have authority over their own life – ofc, maybe it's just me...) Cassandra is a progressive conservative, perhaps, she can bring some improvements (fortunately neither she nor Vivienne also didn't success to force back the every mage into the Circles) I said: The education and research center Circles are very important. The Seekers and Templars(? lyrium addiction isn't really positive) are important, and with mages, they can be an effective force against the rogue mages, demons, and magical crimes. With guards, they also able to push back violent commoners. The prison-Circles are unnecessary, inhumane and even dangerous.
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Post by tacsear on Sept 6, 2017 10:44:13 GMT
Why? Because in theory they help mages to stüdyo and live in peace while protecting common people from abominations and blood mages? I really believe Cassandra can really make it work both for mages and templars. In "theory", they help. In reality, the Mages are properties. As long as the Mages doesn't have authority over their own and their children's lives, the Circle's unacceptable. (The fact, that they can commit suicide, doesn't mean, that they have authority over their own life – ofc, maybe it's just me...) Cassandra is a progressive conservative, perhaps, she can bring some improvements (fortunately neither she nor Vivienne also didn't success to force back the every mage into the Circles) I said: The education and research center Circles are very important. The Seekers and Templars(? lyrium addiction isn't really positive) are important, and with mages, they can be an effective force against the rogue mages, demons, and magical crimes. With guards, they also able to push back violent commoners. The prison-Circles are unnecessary, inhumane and even dangerous. That is my point. Cassandra also doesn't approve of Templars' lyrium addiction and reforms them too. She also wants mages to rule themselves. She is progressive but rational. I do not approve of the old circles but I believe in Cass' vision. She wants to create a chantry that doesn't have to tolerate mages because they govern themselves while maintaining the necessary protection.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 6, 2017 11:29:07 GMT
In "theory", they help. In reality, the Mages are properties. As long as the Mages doesn't have authority over their own and their children's lives, the Circle's unacceptable. (The fact, that they can commit suicide, doesn't mean, that they have authority over their own life – ofc, maybe it's just me...) Cassandra is a progressive conservative, perhaps, she can bring some improvements (fortunately neither she nor Vivienne also didn't success to force back the every mage into the Circles) I said: The education and research center Circles are very important. The Seekers and Templars(? lyrium addiction isn't really positive) are important, and with mages, they can be an effective force against the rogue mages, demons, and magical crimes. With guards, they also able to push back violent commoners. The prison-Circles are unnecessary, inhumane and even dangerous. That is my point. Cassandra also doesn't approve of Templars' lyrium addiction and reforms them too. She also wants mages to rule themselves. She is progressive but rational. I do not approve of the old circles but I believe in Cass' vision. She wants to create a chantry that doesn't have to tolerate mages because they govern themselves while maintaining the necessary protection. Cassandra's acceptable, despite that I prefer Leliana over her. And they are able to work together. Cassandra offers her helper hand to Leliana, and vice versa, depending on, who become Divine among them. And they both refuse Vivienne.
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Post by tacsear on Sept 6, 2017 11:36:15 GMT
That is my point. Cassandra also doesn't approve of Templars' lyrium addiction and reforms them too. She also wants mages to rule themselves. She is progressive but rational. I do not approve of the old circles but I believe in Cass' vision. She wants to create a chantry that doesn't have to tolerate mages because they govern themselves while maintaining the necessary protection. Cassandra's acceptable, despite that I prefer Leliana over her. And they are able to work together. Cassandra offers her helper hand to Leliana, and vice versa, depending on, who become Divine among them. And they both refuse Vivienne. I absolutely love Viv but she basically turn Thedas into Tevinter
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Post by Catilina on Sept 6, 2017 11:51:25 GMT
Cassandra's acceptable, despite that I prefer Leliana over her. And they are able to work together. Cassandra offers her helper hand to Leliana, and vice versa, depending on, who become Divine among them. And they both refuse Vivienne. I absolutely love Viv but she basically turn Thedas into Tevinter In the eyes of every pious Andrastian in Southern-Thedas, she's a Magister-Divine. From the mages' viewpoint, she's the worse: a mage, who declared, that the Mages are monsters without cage and leash. This only deepens people's fears.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 6, 2017 12:20:32 GMT
I absolutely love Viv but she basically turn Thedas into Tevinter Yeah I'd agree with that. When the inquisitor first meets Viv she uses her magic to control the guy. She harmed him to get what she wanted and thought nothing of it. She's a strong character and well written. Personally, I like this scene because it shows, that Vivienne tends to abuse her gift and to give a shit to the people's fears if she can demonstrate her power. Most of the people think, that Vivienne is a great example of a responsible Mage. But this simply not true.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 6, 2017 12:53:34 GMT
Personally, I like this scene because it shows, that Vivienne tends to abuse her gift and to give a shit to the people's fears if she can demonstrate her power. Most of the people think, that Vivienne is a great example of a responsible Mage. But this simple not true. Yes. That's why that scene is so well written. I like the scene too in a few moments we know who that character is and how far she is willing to go, to use her magic for her own gain. Not sure if I remember correctly or not but doesn't Vivienne want the circles for other mages but not for her? She absolutely pro-Circle and pro-Templar and pro-Tranquility – at least she didn't speak against the Tranquility, I think she wouldn't change the praxis to using that as preventive "solution". She absolutely accepts the privileges, over the fundamental rights.
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Post by tacsear on Sept 6, 2017 13:26:14 GMT
I absolutely love Viv but she basically turn Thedas into Tevinter In the eyes of every pious Andrastian in Southern-Thedas, she's a Magister-Divine. From the mages' viewpoint, she's the worse: a mage, who declared, that the Mages are monsters without cage and leash. This only deepens people's fears. I like her attitude. She is gloriously violent. That's my term for her
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Post by tacsear on Sept 6, 2017 13:41:07 GMT
I absolutely love Viv but she basically turn Thedas into Tevinter Yeah I'd agree with that. When the inquisitor first meets Viv she uses her magic to control the guy. She harmed him to get what she wanted and thought nothing of it. She's a strong character and well written. I really loved her when I picked the option to let her decide what to do wit the Marquis, it was glorious
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 14:47:31 GMT
I don't mind siding with Meredith. First time I sided with Orsino, and it was rather illogical and weird ending of the game. I find that when I sided with Meredith, the story flowed better, battles had better pacing and made more sense.
RP wise, an entitled mage that wants to eliminate competition, and anyone who is trying keep Kirkwall together no matter what and/or is appalled by Anders' actions; is really aggrieved over Mom-Hawke death makes sense to me.
DA2 does do a good job of showing mages as fickle and traitorous.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 6, 2017 15:16:32 GMT
I don't mind siding with Meredith. First time I sided with Orsino, and it was rather illogical and weird ending of the game. I find that when I sided with Meredith, the story flowed better, battles had better pacing and made more sense. RP wise, an entitled mage that wants to eliminate competition, and anyone who is trying keep Kirkwall together no matter what and/or is appalled by Anders' actions; is really aggrieved over Mom-Hawke death makes sense to me. DA2 does do a good job of showing mages as fickle and traitorous. Without metaknowledge, Hawke doesn't have any logical reason to siding with Meredith. Seems she is the cancer in the city, and want to annul the Circle. In the possession of knowing, that Meredith will die, and Cullen can prevert the annulment, the decision makes more sense than without metaknowledge, but morally wrong to me. And I have problem to use metaknowledge.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 16:03:25 GMT
Unless Circle annulment is the way to achieve your character's goals as I have posted. You need not always play someone who believes mages' lives should be preserved. And there are foreshadowing, or you can see them if you wish, on your char's behalf that you can remove Meredith. You do not have to stick to the game's script too precisely when you play.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 6, 2017 16:27:22 GMT
Unless Circle annulment is the way to achieve your character's goals as I have posted. You need not always play someone who believes mages' lives should be preserved. And there are foreshadowing, or you can see them if you wish, on your char's behalf that you can remove Meredith. You do not have to stick to the game's script too precisely when you play. With Hawke's background hardly. (As a random noble/commoner without apostate background ofc.) Meredith's unacceptable from the beginning of the game (the first guard says, when Hawke arrives in Kirkwall, that she rules over the city, and later you see Karl's tranquility, and you can speak with Elthina, who says, that she doesn't like her methods). She is the cancer in Kirkwall, and Elthina's "neutrality". I said: I did once that end, but very uncomfortable. Hawke's a mage, who doesn't live in the Circle, he would able to help. If doesn't do it, s/he's a traitor (my feeling). If Hawke have his/her sister in the Circle, s/he betray her, clearly. The Circe mages didn't anything, Anders did. The Templars are an army, with support, they are outnumbered. Their victory's not questionable. The mages must leave Kirkwall, definitely, so Kirkwall's people doesn't need to fear from them anymore, but with Hawke they have more chance to escape. Without metaknowledge, Hawke supports a paranoid tyrant criminal. If hawke's evil, that natural way. If not... only Templar Carver the only reason to support the templars, but Carver chose his own fate, Hawke didn't. And with metaknowledge, you know, that the Templars finally will betray Hawke, and Hawke forced to exile. (I'm not sure about the circumstances, but I like this version...)
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Post by Iddy on Sept 6, 2017 17:39:28 GMT
People who like Vivienne. That's who.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 6, 2017 17:45:54 GMT
People who like Vivienne. That's who. Hawke was never Circle mage, so s/he doesn't have Stockholm Syndrome. And not hypocrite or/and brainwashed. And has family (mean: not the First enchanter is his/her father/mother, and the Circle Mages and Templars his/her sisters/brothers).
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Post by tacsear on Sept 8, 2017 4:08:02 GMT
I really loved her when I picked the option to let her decide what to do wit the Marquis, it was glorious AH! had to look that up. Vivienne is scary- do not anger her! Excellent voice actor. I was really suprised when I found our her VA plays in GoT, excellent really.
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Post by fylimar on Sept 8, 2017 19:14:07 GMT
I was really suprised when I found our her VA plays in GoT, excellent really. Holy shit she plays Ellaria Sand! What an ending.. Although I dpn't like tv-Ellaria (love book-Ellaria though), I really like Indira Varma, she is a great actress and I love, how she voiced Viv (and Iddy: although I'm a big Viv fan, I never sided with Meredith ones. Viv would probably not have sided with Meredith, she was a raving lunatic in the end)
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Post by Catilina on Sept 8, 2017 19:23:59 GMT
Holy shit she plays Ellaria Sand! What an ending. Although I dpn't like tv-Ellaria (love book-Ellaria though), I really like Indira Varma, she is a great actress and I love, how she voiced Viv (and Iddy : although I'm a big Viv fan, I never sided with Meredith ones. Viv would probably not have sided with Meredith, she was a raving lunatic in the end) I'm sure "NOT Viv" would choose Meredith for the "peace", and because "the Mages are dangerous, they need supervision always" – except herself, ofc. On the principle, that a bad Templar better than the lack of control, and would want to regain her own reliability and importance, what is the most important thing in her life. Her own relevance much more important to her, than anyone's life. She doesn't let that lose because of Anders, nor because of some poor Mages in the Circle. And she's a Loyalist, rather to the Templars/Chantry whatever they wants than the Mages, especially if they serve his own interests. Varric also prefer to side Meredith, because he sees Kirkwall's security in her hand... foolish, but still.
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