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People are too forgiving when it comes to video games, and their focus is malplaced.
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Post by cankiie on Sept 1, 2019 16:55:10 GMT
All of this doesn't matter if the story is not strong, and according to some goddamn unfortunate spoilers I read in an Israeli article it has great potential with very high stakes. Story is the least important thing.
Also, in regards to genders, what in the world did people actually expect As if any game that is categorised as a RPG would actually be able to include all the various genders that the social media crowd has decided to come up with We will obviously be stuck with male and female always, doing anything more is far more trouble than it is worth as there will be an expectation to do it 100% correct at all times, one mistake and you land yourself in controversy forever. Just look at the joke CDPR employee decided to post on social media
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Post by Gwydden on Sept 1, 2019 18:41:43 GMT
Story is the least important thing. Too bad for the game, then, because mechanically it looks like an unremarkable shooter, an unremarkable stealth game, an unremarkable driving game, an unremarkable sandbox, and an unremarkable RPG. Much like The Witcher games, or the Mass Effect trilogy for that matter. The interactive story is those games', and this one's, whole selling point.
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People are too forgiving when it comes to video games, and their focus is malplaced.
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Post by cankiie on Sept 1, 2019 19:06:07 GMT
Story is the least important thing. Too bad for the game, then, because mechanically it looks like an unremarkable shooter, an unremarkable stealth game, an unremarkable driving game, an unremarkable sandbox, and an unremarkable RPG. Much like The Witcher games, or the Mass Effect trilogy for that matter. The interactive story is those games', and this one's, whole selling point. Too bad indeed then, a video game is supposed to be a video game first. An alternative to a book or a movie as the very, very last. I am not entirely sure what is meant by unremarkable shooter. All shooter games look and feel the exactly same to me... hell, even GTA V feels a lot like a shooter game to me. The only real mix up, to me, you can have is whether you have a cover button or not... otherwise it is just the same rooty-tooty-point and shooty style. Then again, I do not play a lot of shooters
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Post by Gwydden on Sept 1, 2019 19:16:30 GMT
Too bad indeed then, a video game is supposed to be a video game first. An alternative to a book or a movie as the very, very last. The "interactive" bit in "interactive story" already distinguishes a story-driven game from a book or movie. Your mileage may vary, of course.
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People are too forgiving when it comes to video games, and their focus is malplaced.
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Post by cankiie on Sept 1, 2019 19:31:14 GMT
Too bad indeed then, a video game is supposed to be a video game first. An alternative to a book or a movie as the very, very last. The "interactive" bit in "interactive story" already distinguishes a story-driven game from a book or movie. Your mileage may vary, of course. Very unnoticeable, really. They could as easily start making interactive movies, hell, even books... I remember we had something akin to interactive text-based stories using SMS messages back in the day. That was really weird. A game's priority is and should always be the gameplay. I also do not count games from now non-existence studios such as Telltale as games either, total elitist I am All of that despite the fact that I watch video games, not necessarily as an art in itself, but a mixture of many different kinds of arts.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Sept 1, 2019 20:27:11 GMT
Story is the least important thing. Too bad for the game, then, because mechanically it looks like an unremarkable shooter, an unremarkable stealth game, an unremarkable driving game, an unremarkable sandbox, and an unremarkable RPG. Much like The Witcher games, or the Mass Effect trilogy for that matter. The interactive story is those games', and this one's, whole selling point. That's quite a cynical take. Outside of the shooting, which I agree needs some work but it's by no means bad, we know almost nothing of the other elements.
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Post by aglomeracja on Sept 1, 2019 22:25:06 GMT
Story is the least important thing. Too bad for the game, then, because mechanically it looks like an unremarkable shooter, an unremarkable stealth game, an unremarkable driving game, an unremarkable sandbox, and an unremarkable RPG. Much like The Witcher games, or the Mass Effect trilogy for that matter. The interactive story is those games', and this one's, whole selling point. Damn, didn't know The Witcher games were stealth shooters with driving mechanics...
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Post by Noxluxe on Sept 1, 2019 23:44:42 GMT
Obviously story is important for the R in RPG to be worth jack shit. And obviously gameplay needs to be passable for you to enjoy the minute-to-minute of going through any game.
Plenty of examples of games that prioritize either over the other while still being hugely successful though, and plenty that weren't because they neglected one or both. The idea that either one is so important that the other simply doesn't matter is patently and demonstrably ridiculous. In those cases it's a matter of one facet being done so exceptionally well that the other gets a free pass, which isn't something to be taken for granted.
A lot of the greatest and most memorable games ever made took a big dump on their gameplay, and a lot of the most played games year after year have no story to speak of. As with art or cooking, what makes games enjoyable is just too complicated and delicate and contentious for us to come anywhere near pinning down in such a crude terms.
To me, Cyberpunk looks like a slightly-above-average shooter with an above-average interactive story produced by the people who made the de facto best regarded RPG series ever. Which makes it deserving of a chance even though the cyberpunk genre, and shooters in general, aren't really my thing.
CDProject's lovely handling of the Witcher's cutthroat and tough as nails setting makes them uniquely qualified to write a grounded, moving and comprehensible human story set in a dystopian megacity where human organs and spare parts are pretty much interchangeable. That's what I'm excited about. That the gunplay and stealth mechanics are decent is nice, but it's certainly not what I'm here for.
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Post by Gwydden on Sept 2, 2019 0:37:04 GMT
Damn, didn't know The Witcher games were stealth shooters with driving mechanics... There's no need to be facetious. I thought my meaning would be clear, but to put it more succinctly: Mass Effect and The Witcher are both examples of RPGs with mediocre gameplay that people love anyway. This is not an attempt to tear them down; they are some of my favorite games. Cyberpunk 2077 looks like it'll follow suit in this regard.
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Post by azarhal on Sept 2, 2019 1:43:18 GMT
After watching the latest gameplay video, I ended up with some cyberpunk RPG rage so I re-installed DX Mankind Divided (will dabble in it until Greedfall release).
First thing I re-learned: I hate contextual switch between 1st and 3rd person. Second thing I re-learned: having lots of augs is more fun than getting reset to factory default.
Also, I now need a quest in Cyberpunk 2077 where I help some underground media conspiracy theorist activists...for funsies.
edit: I forgot, DX:MD gunplay feels rather bad to me. CP77 video looks better.
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Post by ApocAlypsE on Sept 2, 2019 7:13:40 GMT
All of this doesn't matter if the story is not strong, and according to some goddamn unfortunate spoilers I read in an Israeli article it has great potential with very high stakes. Story is the least important thing. Ha, I will imagine that will go over well in a Bioware fan forum... And damn right story is important for me in a single-player game, comes third after gameplay and characters, in that order. I guess you play mostly sandbox games and/or multiplayer? Those don't require a good story to work (Starcraft 2 for example).
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Post by azarhal on Sept 2, 2019 13:00:33 GMT
God, the internet is going crazy over the game being FPP only again. Do people have collective memory wipe-out weekly or something? I've been checking around for the "the game will now only have FPP cutscenes" (which is what started the complains last night despite not even being recent) and I'll have discovered is that CDPR are saying the same thing as last year: the waste majority of the game is in FPP, cutscenes included. Something that sparked the exact same complains last year. People are even twisting Marcin's " see you character, very occasionally, in cut-scenes" into the cutscenes never showing your character somehow. Some are even claiming the game is changing direction. I can already tell, this game release is going to be AMAZING. I expect a monumental flop, no necessarily in term of sells, but reception-wise. The "3rd person or nothing" people are going to review bomb the hell out of it. Then people who wanted to play something else than a tryhard blowtard mercenary are going to be annoyed. And all the people who wanted Night City to be an idyllic utopia instead of a shithole are going to throw a tantrum (I've seen someone complain about the game having gangs and criminals already).
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Post by Noxluxe on Sept 2, 2019 13:14:13 GMT
God, the internet is going crazy over the game being FPP only again. Do people have collective memory wipe-out weekly or something? I've been checking around for the "the game will now only have FPP cutscenes" (which is what started the complains last night despite not even being recent) and I'll have discovered is that CDPR are saying the same thing as last year: the waste majority of the game is in FPP, cutscenes included. Something that sparked the exact same complains last year. People are even twisting Marcin's " see you character, very occasionally, in cut-scenes" into the cutscenes never showing your character somehow. Some are even claiming the game is changing direction. I can already tell, this game release is going to be AMAZING. I expect a monumental flop, no necessarily in term of sells, but reception-wise. The "3rd person or nothing" people are going to review bomb the hell out of it. Then people who wanted to play something else than a tryhard blowtard mercenary are going to be annoyed. And all the people who wanted Night City to be an idyllic utopia instead of a shithole are going to throw a tantrum (I've seen someone complain about the game having gangs and criminals already). Meh. Someone is always going to complain for a stupid reason, but I doubt a lot of people are going to be quite that irrational. I don't get what the issue is. The game has been evidently first-person since the first gameplay footage. Personally, I'm happy they aren't wasting money trying to implement a lame and half-assed immersion-breaking third-person view Bethesda style. That was never anything except awkward. Seeing V's hairstyle in the occasional mirror and even more occasional cutscene is enough for me.
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Post by Gileadan on Sept 2, 2019 13:33:54 GMT
I don't get this particular 1st person perspective bitching that is being directed at Cyberpunk 2077. Was it that bad when DOOM was released? Deus Ex? Dishonored? Dying Light?
Did someone somewhere decide that the CRPG genre is only allowed to use 3rd person perspective?
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Post by Tittus on Sept 2, 2019 13:57:28 GMT
I don't get this particular 1st person perspective bitching that is being directed at Cyberpunk 2077. Was it that bad when DOOM was released? Deus Ex? Dishonored? Dying Light? Did someone somewhere decide that the CRPG genre is only allowed to use 3rd person perspective? The matter is that Cyberpunk 2077 is highly desired. It'll have amazing graphics, unique designs, it's from the developers of The Witcher. I see other games in FPP being released and I simply don't care, but I love everything about CP and I won't play it because I hate fpp
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Post by azarhal on Sept 2, 2019 15:12:58 GMT
I don't get this particular 1st person perspective bitching that is being directed at Cyberpunk 2077. Was it that bad when DOOM was released? Deus Ex? Dishonored? Dying Light? Did someone somewhere decide that the CRPG genre is only allowed to use 3rd person perspective? For DX HR/MD, it was more the opposite, most fans didn't want the 3rd person animations and the sticky cover system. There was no complains for Dishonored as far as I remember (pre or post release). I can't say about the other games. We did reach the point where people claim that RPG genre requires 3rd person perspective though, I've read such a post on another forum just a few hours ago. I think the real issue is that lots of people expected TW3 with a scifi skin despite CP77 being announced first and now two years later after discovering it is FPP they are still pissed at CDPR. And instead of moving on, they stick around because the majority of them have no stopping problem (like motion sickness) with 1st person perspective they just don't want it in this specific game.
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Post by UutIVvdPw7END0Ef on Sept 2, 2019 15:26:47 GMT
I will still play the game, but having so much customization with so little TPP is a bummer. Would gladly pay for a TPP DLC if it's that hard to implement lol, or maybe pay a modder.
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Post by aglomeracja on Sept 2, 2019 15:29:49 GMT
Damn, didn't know The Witcher games were stealth shooters with driving mechanics... There's no need to be facetious. I thought my meaning would be clear, but to put it more succinctly: Mass Effect and The Witcher are both examples of RPGs with mediocre gameplay that people love anyway. This is not an attempt to tear them down; they are some of my favorite games. Cyberpunk 2077 looks like it'll follow suit in this regard. Fair enough, but I would certainly argue that both ME and TW are far from "medicore", even if there are some games that did some of those gameplay aspects slighly better, I don't think I know any that did them better overall, especially since there are very few that even tried.
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Post by azarhal on Sept 2, 2019 15:52:05 GMT
There's no need to be facetious. I thought my meaning would be clear, but to put it more succinctly: Mass Effect and The Witcher are both examples of RPGs with mediocre gameplay that people love anyway. This is not an attempt to tear them down; they are some of my favorite games. Cyberpunk 2077 looks like it'll follow suit in this regard. Fair enough, but I would certainly argue that both ME and TW are far from "medicore", even if there are some games that did some of those gameplay aspects slighly better, I don't think I know any that did them better overall, especially since there are very few that even tried. You're talking about a bowl of fruits tasting awesome as a whole despite containing a few rotten fruits, Gwydden is talking about the specific rotten fruits tasting bad. bowl of fruits = a game fruits = gameplay elements
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Post by aglomeracja on Sept 2, 2019 16:55:21 GMT
Fair enough, but I would certainly argue that both ME and TW are far from "medicore", even if there are some games that did some of those gameplay aspects slighly better, I don't think I know any that did them better overall, especially since there are very few that even tried. You're talking about a bowl of fruits tasting awesome as a whole despite containing a few rotten fruits, Gwydden is talking about the specific rotten fruits tasting bad. bowl of fruits = a game fruits = gameplay elements Yeah, I got that part, I'm still disagreeing about whether those "fruits" are actually "rotten". I'd be hard pressed to recall that many games that did those aspects better than TW3 or ME (although it might be easier in ME's case).
Which game has better swordplay than TW3? Dark Soul and... what else? Horse riding probably wasn't done better in any game. I don't know if ME or TW3 are sandboxes nor that "pure" sandbox game would even be a good thing, but TW3's open world is pretty great, you won't find many comparably good implementations of it (if any). I don't know how to comment on "unremarkable RPG" part, because those games are often considered as the best cRPG's ever. I guess it depends what secifically Gwydden means by "RPG".
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Post by slimgrin727 on Sept 2, 2019 17:45:26 GMT
It's possible they cut TP cutscenes due to time or budget constraints. For TW3, they had developed an in-engine solution for creating dynamic cutscenes quickly and efficiently, so it's odd they wouldn't use it again in Cyberpunk. It was an extremely sophisticated piece of software.
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Post by azarhal on Sept 2, 2019 18:08:20 GMT
You're talking about a bowl of fruits tasting awesome as a whole despite containing a few rotten fruits, Gwydden is talking about the specific rotten fruits tasting bad. bowl of fruits = a game fruits = gameplay elements Yeah, I got that part, I'm still disagreeing about whether those "fruits" are actually "rotten". I'd be hard pressed to recall that many games that did those aspects better than TW3 or ME (although it might be easier in ME's case).
Which game has better swordplay than TW3? Dark Soul and... what else? Horse riding probably wasn't done better in any game. I don't know if ME or TW3 are sandboxes nor that "pure" sandbox game would even be a good thing, but TW3's open world is pretty great, you won't find many comparably good implementations of it (if any). I don't know how to comment on "unremarkable RPG" part, because those games are often considered as the best cRPG's ever. I guess it depends what secifically Gwydden means by "RPG".
TW2 take on the swordplay is better than TW3. The bomb throwning/crossbow is abysmal in both though. TW3 combat is a prettier animated but less smooth version of what Fable 1 did by the way. TW3 horse riding was based off RDR and isn't as good. Neither ME or TW3 are sandboxes. TW3 open world is based off Ubisoft's model, but emptier and with an awful level distributions (I still don't get why Skellige has lower level enemies than the quest you take to get you there the first time). For the "unremarkable RPG", people call those games RPGs because they were marketed as such, but in term of gameplay, both TW3 and Mass Effect are action games with RPG elements and TW3 has less RPG elements than ME does. And it seems CDPR realized this as they changed Cyberpunk 2077 official twitter to say the game is an open-world, action-adventure story game a bit before E3 of this year. It doesn't says RPG anymore (even if they still call it RPG in interview...just like BioWare did with Anthem).
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Post by cankiie on Sept 2, 2019 21:18:24 GMT
Ha, I will imagine that will go over well in a Bioware fan forum... And damn right story is important for me in a single-player game, comes third after gameplay and characters, in that order. I guess you play mostly sandbox games and/or multiplayer? Those don't require a good story to work (Starcraft 2 for example). I also like playing Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, Fallout 4, Divinity: Original Sin. I enjoy Outward mostly right now, I do dislike World of Warcraft, but while their story content have gotten considerably better compared to it's glory days, the gameplay has started to absolutely suck and thus has become largely boring to play Funny how people stop playing a video game if the gameplay and the gameplay-content is lacking. People on these forums can go and read a book, that might fit them better. The priority in a video game is first and foremost - gameplay. If gameplay does not work, the game is abandoned faster than you can count to five. Story, however, can be good regardless though. It does not have to be a priority for the game to be good though. Sometimes getting the atmosphere just right is more than enough, and then you can write a bullshit story still fitting within the given universe.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Sept 2, 2019 22:08:23 GMT
Yeah, I got that part, I'm still disagreeing about whether those "fruits" are actually "rotten". I'd be hard pressed to recall that many games that did those aspects better than TW3 or ME (although it might be easier in ME's case).
Which game has better swordplay than TW3? Dark Soul and... what else? Horse riding probably wasn't done better in any game. I don't know if ME or TW3 are sandboxes nor that "pure" sandbox game would even be a good thing, but TW3's open world is pretty great, you won't find many comparably good implementations of it (if any). I don't know how to comment on "unremarkable RPG" part, because those games are often considered as the best cRPG's ever. I guess it depends what secifically Gwydden means by "RPG".
TW2 take on the swordplay is better than TW3. The bomb throwning/crossbow is abysmal in both though. TW3 combat is a prettier animated but less smooth version of what Fable 1 did by the way. TW3 horse riding was based off RDR and isn't as good. Neither ME or TW3 are sandboxes. TW3 open world is based off Ubisoft's model, but emptier and with an awful level distributions (I still don't get why Skellige has lower level enemies than the quest you take to get you there the first time). For the "unremarkable RPG", people call those games RPGs because they were marketed as such, but in term of gameplay, both TW3 and Mass Effect are action games with RPG elements and TW3 has less RPG elements than ME does. And it seems CDPR realized this as they changed Cyberpunk 2077 official twitter to say the game is an open-world, action-adventure story game a bit before E3 of this year. It doesn't says RPG anymore (even if they still call it RPG in interview...just like BioWare did with Anthem). -bomb throwing in both games works as intended. You just have to be accurate. It could be a huge part of gameplay in TW2. -TW3's map is not a strict Ubi copy, otherwise it would have been boring to explore. With very few exceptions, it isn't. Turn off the quest markers and explore - works remarkably well. -swordplay is below a number of games like Nioh, Dark Souls, but I honestly don't get where people say it's bad. It gets quite good on death march in the expansions. -Horse riding isn't great, but it was the first time in games your horse would follow a path and you could pan the camera independently. I could go on about ME series as well where people say the gameplay was crap when it clearly wasn't.
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Post by Hier0phant on Sept 3, 2019 2:48:43 GMT
It's possible they cut TP cutscenes due to time or budget constraints. For TW3, they had developed an in-engine solution for creating dynamic cutscenes quickly and efficiently, so it's odd they wouldn't use it again in Cyberpunk. It was an extremely sophisticated piece of software. The majority of the personnel who worked on TW3 have left CDPR while the game seems to be made by a Western studio instead, and one that is comprised of Bioware refugees. If most of these personnel were the ones who worked on Andromeda then that doesn't bode well for Cyberpunk, and would explain why most of the news surrounding Cyberpunk is about cut features, and setbacks. www.cdprojekt.com/en/media/news/cd-projekt-red-establishes-long-term-partnership-with-digital-scapes/Not good. Just noticed this, some devs who worked on Dying Light, lol, are employed by Digital Scapes too. So CDPR tasked a studio that's filled to the brim with minimally talented rejects to help develop Cyberpunk. The game is shaping up to be a hard pass for me.
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