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Post by midnight tea on Feb 23, 2018 21:26:45 GMT
The only willful denial being practiced here is your insistence that 1) the Chantry has no understanding whatsoever of how magic, the Fade, and spirits work They don't. They may have some idea, but at this point - given the revelations about Solas and the Veil - all the knowledge currently held about world, magic and how it works should be put into doubt. That is not to say that nobody gets it at any capacity. Don't mis-characterize my argument as that or some sort of wacky hyperbole. But the knowledge of how magic, Fade and spirits works is indeed severely lacking, and Chantry's approach to magic has a lot to do with it. It's demonstrated at virtually every step of the story. They mostly do, sadly. Especially that it's unnatural and destructive. This is why you even can meet mages in circle praying to take their 'curse' away, or accept their fate. Or the tragic tale of original Cole. You say that you can bring millions examples, yet you don't provide even one. I mean, I'm sure you'll find a few - and I'm fairly sure that for any example of positive portrayal, I can bring about a dozen of negative ones. The Chantry's approach to magic is as it is and there's no denying it. The South fears magic, Fade and spirits and that's a consequently institutionalized fear.
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Post by Raga on Feb 23, 2018 21:27:56 GMT
From Seheron since a Qunari from Seheron could realistically be *anything:* Vashoth, Tal-Vashoth, actual Qunari, etc. It would maximize role-playing potential. would that make sense as an origin that would allowed to rub shoulders with Magisters and have a hand in forming Tevinter though? Really depends on how paranoid people in Tevinter are about Qunari (as in the oxman race and not the religion) in general. It could be that *no* origin makes sense for a Qunari allowed free access to Tevinter because people are just that paranoid about them. Given what we know about Tevinter so far though, I find this unlikely. They don't actually seem to care about race at all. Everything has to do with caste and whether or not you have mage blood.
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Post by phoray on Feb 23, 2018 21:32:04 GMT
would that make sense as an origin that would allowed to rub shoulders with Magisters and have a hand in forming Tevinter though? Really depends on how paranoid people in Tevinter are about Qunari (as in the oxman race and not the religion) in general. It could be that *no* origin makes sense for a Qunari allowed free access to Tevinter because people are just that paranoid about them. Given what we know about Tevinter so far though, I find this unlikely. They don't actually seem to care about race at all. Everything has to do with caste and whether or not you have mage blood. Slave origin seems possible. I just find it unlikely that a True Koslun Following Qunari would be an origin option. Unless we get to play as a Q that defects at the beginning that we actually get to play through. OR was about to be Acid-Gassed to the equivalent of tranquility for being so willful. Man. That would be a friggen delight to RP. I can just see it now. Your people rejected you, so you fled. But you're improving Thedas, saving the world, for a religion you still believe in, if only you could prove to them that your invidiuality wasn't unacceptable under the Qun. Only to realize, come the end, that you don't need them anymore. *swipes fake tear* beautiful.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 23, 2018 21:49:24 GMT
Really depends on how paranoid people in Tevinter are about Qunari (as in the oxman race and not the religion) in general. It could be that *no* origin makes sense for a Qunari allowed free access to Tevinter because people are just that paranoid about them. Given what we know about Tevinter so far though, I find this unlikely. They don't actually seem to care about race at all. Everything has to do with caste and whether or not you have mage blood. Slave origin seems possible. I just find it unlikely that a True Koslun Following Qunari would be an origin option. Unless we get to play as a Q that defects at the beginning that we actually get to play through. OR was about to be Acid-Gassed to the equivalent of tranquility for being so willful. Te origin is dependent on how the story would start. And I am entirely unsure we're going to start in Tevinter or Tevinter proper.
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Post by Raga on Feb 23, 2018 21:53:04 GMT
given the revelations about Solas and the Veil - all the knowledge currently held about world, magic and how it works should be put into doubt. This just means they don't know how the world worked in the past or over long eons because they have no accurate way to measure change over time so a lot of origin myths are largely full of bunk. It doesn't mean they can't know plenty about how things work *now.* So another analogy: Some tribe has 0 idea about evolution so they believe that Jeff, the god of biscuits, vomited up their ancestors when Simon, the god of hairdos, put dung in his biscuit dough. However, they also totally understand the migration pattern of birds, how to navigate by the stars, what plants heal and what ones make you sick. They in fact know a lot about the natural world, origin myth notwithstanding. You are the one who claimed they basically have no recourse but to pray or give money to priests or sacrifice goats or whatever. But that's simply not true. They know quite a bit about lyrium and spirits and the Fade and can manipulate them in meaningful ways, but since you also said this: and I largely agree with that, I'm willing to let this portion of the debate drop. Largely true, because the Circle *is* exceedingly murky, replete with both stories of success and horror, but that is kind of my point. It isn't all of one thing or another. And to that end, getting into an anecdote battle trying to prove that's it's 100% of one thing or another, when it's neither isn't productive. To go back to my original statement, the Chantry tries to solve the problems inherent in the dangers of magic by relying on innovative control of magic: by hopping templars up on lyrium, by the Rite of Tranquility, by the rites undergone by Seekers that render them immune to possession and mind control, by tracking mages with their phylacteries etc. I'm not *defending* these actions as moral, but pointing out that is pretty much as I said before an example of trying to control magic (nature as it were) with pure engineering. People also fear hurricanes. Justifiably so. Fearing something doesn't mean you don't understand it. Fear can be a totally rational response to a dangerous thing you *do* understand.
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Post by phoray on Feb 23, 2018 21:57:15 GMT
Slave origin seems possible. I just find it unlikely that a True Koslun Following Qunari would be an origin option. Unless we get to play as a Q that defects at the beginning that we actually get to play through. OR was about to be Acid-Gassed to the equivalent of tranquility for being so willful. Te origin is dependent on how the story would start. And I am entirely unsure we're going to start in Tevinter or Tevinter proper. Stabbing the name Tevinter on a map a trick?
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 23, 2018 23:12:13 GMT
given the revelations about Solas and the Veil - all the knowledge currently held about world, magic and how it works should be put into doubt. This just means they don't know how the world worked in the past or over long eons because they have no accurate way to measure it so a lot of origin myths are largely full of bunk This is not just about history. The world how it is is different from what it was, but it's still the same world. How it works now is pretty much entirely predicated on how it worked before. The Veil has changed the world, but it's still based on magic that allowed it to form all those years ago. It IS magic (magical vibration to be more exact). It pushes the rest of the Fade away, but the Fade is still part of the world only 'Veiled, structured' in some way, according to Cole's description. People's spirits or souls (and likely origins of life itself) are still linked with it in some way and when they dream, their minds visit the land of magic, consciously or no. Those who were cut from it are devoid of emotions, with exception of dwarves, who themselves are connected in some way to strange giant creatures whose blood seems almost like concentrated Fade. So whatever the world was before it is still now, and Fade still affects the world and is affected back by world itself, on basically every level. There's a reason why a civilization that knows more than migration of birds, navigation of stars and what plants heal is thousandfold more developed than our nomadic ancestors who believed someone coughed up the first human. Like... you can't have more demonstrable proof of what decent understanding does than virtually our entire modern civilization. Almost everything around you, including the means we communicate right now despite living thousands of miles away, screams of how little we've known before compared to now and how it changed our world. I mean really - are you serious in saying that understanding of pattern of birds is 'a lot', especially compared to understanding a. where birds come from b. why they migrate in the first place c. how weather works d. why is there weather in the first place, among thousands of other things we have relatively good understanding of now? Nevermind that people got completely erroneous ideas why such patterns existed or why certain plants healed certain ailments. There was poor understanding of relation between correlation and causation, much less everything beyond that. That's not to say that ALL knowledge was bogus, but to say that we've known 'a lot'... that's just untrue. We demonstrably didn't know a lot and what we've known was oftentimes too scattered or censored or jealously guarded. That was the state of things for quite a while. Which is why many people in modern world are still grappling the idea that the universe looks entirely NOT how we imagined it to be for all those millennia and still have hard time wrapping our heads around how strange it all is. What's more - the irony of DA setting is that so far Elvenhan seems to resemble our current civilization more than modern Thedas does. From records of Vir Dirthara and Solas's own approach it appears that the society was more scientifically-minded, they've had fast forms of communication and transportation and there was far more of them than people currently living on continent. They lived mostly in far-flunged corners of the world, in huge settlements - just like we mostly start living in or nearby large cities, with not that much happening in between (US with its mostly coastal cities is a great example). And, naturally, they've had knowledge enough about the world to make it into a threat to itself (they've had magic of some sort, we have atom bombs and the like) and shape the world in ways or scale people at some point thought only gods can. So yes - the knowledge Thedosians currently have about the world? Appears to be pretty paltry, given the state of things itself .The fact that they're trying to control magic in any ways they can doesn't mean that their ways are 'innovative'. They can be more aptly compared to someone stumbling over blind in a dark room and whacking everything that makes a sound they don't like with a stick they've found, but are not entirely sure what it is. They rile over blood magic, yet they use it to create phials with mage blood to track them. They basically always mischaracterize spirits as being hostile or manipulative towards any living thing. They have hardly any idea what the Veil is. Nobody is really sure what happens to spirits or souls after death or even during dreaming. There's no indication that they seem to understand what really lyrium is or what it does to Templars, other than it gives them powers and lets Chantry control them too through addiction, until they lose their mind to it and are discarded. Plus - are they even aware that lyrium is blood too? That's something Inquisition only finds out in Descent - not even dwarves have known this! Even largely independent Seekers who don't need lyrium to have templar-like powers don't really seem to understand them or how they came to have them, as demonstrated by dialogues between Cassandra and Solas, or the revelations in Cass' personal quest. In other words - I'm not claiming that Chantry knows nothing. It knows enough to keep magic in the South largely contained. But characterizing it as innovative or knowledgeable approach? No. Not even close. They use what they know or think they know. In that regard they're not much different from other institutions in Thedas. The Wardens have found out a ritual that allows them to fight darkspawn and deal with Archdemons - does that mean that they know a lot about the Blight or Archdemons? No - they only know how to stop a specific symptom of the Blight, not even the Blight itself. And them having ritual like Joining more and more looks like playing with fire they don't understand. The means that justifies an end, but for an unknown price.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 23, 2018 23:13:34 GMT
Te origin is dependent on how the story would start. And I am entirely unsure we're going to start in Tevinter or Tevinter proper. Stabbing the name Tevinter on a map a trick? The fact that we're likely heading towards Tevinter doesn't mean that we're going to start in it - or that whoever we're going to start with is going to be native to the lands. DAO protagonist was a Fereldan - but Hawke wasn't native to Kirkwall and Inquisitor wasn't native to Ferelden or Orlais.
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Post by phoray on Feb 23, 2018 23:25:59 GMT
The fact that we're likely heading towards Tevinter doesn't mean that we're going to start in it - or that whoever we're going to start with is going to be native to the lands. DAO protagonist was a Fereldan - but Hawke wasn't native to Kirkwall and Inquisitor wasn't native to Ferelden or Orlais. Oooooo. What if we got a PC from a different country each and actually got to be in these other countries for an hour or so?
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 23, 2018 23:36:47 GMT
The fact that we're likely heading towards Tevinter doesn't mean that we're going to start in it - or that whoever we're going to start with is going to be native to the lands. DAO protagonist was a Fereldan - but Hawke wasn't native to Kirkwall and Inquisitor wasn't native to Ferelden or Orlais. Oooooo. What if we got a PC from a different country each and actually got to be in these other countries for an hour or so? You mean origin stories? Or do you mean that we're going to visit each country at some point during playthrough? The former I think is unlikely. The latter... I think it depends on modes of transportation available to us. In Inquisition we could travel relatively vast distances because of who we were. We had access to fastest mounts, ships and routes. But Inquisition's mission is over, it was mostly limited to South and I don't think we're going to play an officially sanctioned organization with such ease of access in the Imperium. That is of course unless we're going to use eluvian network. If we do that, I can imagine us travelling to all kinds of places.
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Post by Raga on Feb 24, 2018 0:13:26 GMT
@midnight tea
You still seem to think that I'm arguing that the Chantry system is better somehow and that's never been what I'm saying. I'm also not trying to quantify precisely how much they know. I'm only stating that your original implication that they know basically nothing isn't true. Since you yourself later clarified that you don't even think that, I'm not sure why we are going in circles about the exact amount that they do or don't know.
As to the observation that they are innovative, it works perfectly well given that all innovative means is that you create new ways of solving problems. That's precisely what they did. I'm confused how you could classify it otherwise.
And lastly, you still have not really demonstrated how what they are doing *isn't* trying to solve the problems of magic via artificial control and engineering, effective or not. Or for that matter why number one in my original analogy (what Solas wants) is better then what I put forward as the best solution which was number 3.
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Post by phoray on Feb 24, 2018 0:46:50 GMT
No no, hear me out. Every ORigin Story has a location assigned to a country. And everything you see in the origin is reused later when you get access to the Eluvian Network.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 24, 2018 1:08:55 GMT
@midnight tea You still seem to think that I'm arguing that the Chantry system is better somehow and that's never been what I'm saying. I'm also not trying to quantify precisely how much they know. I'm only stating that your original implication that they know basically nothing isn't true. Since you yourself later clarified that you don't even think that, I'm not sure why we are going in circles about the exact amount that they do or don't know. The original point wasn't even about knowing nothing or close to nothing - only that their approach has little to do with reasonable approach towards the problem that you vaguely characterized them as having. They're not approaching the issue they have to seek sensible solution to a problem - they approach it with built-in prejudice and a firm set of beliefs. I mean... nevermind that when it comes to original analogy I did say that I'm not sure it works that well, given the above AND the fact that we've only figured out that the Veil a.) wasn't there before b.) may not be there for long. Any containment of magic Chantry did is a somewhat different issue that is pretty much entirely predicated on a fact that Chantry believes that the Veil is made by the Maker and it's basically permanent. Well of course you'd be confused considering it's quite apparent that you've lost the point of my argument somewhere. I don't have to demonstrate anything. The fact that they're trying to solve some problems they have with artificial control and engineering doesn't mean that this artificial control and engineering can be compared to us trying to contain hurricane flooding in XX-XXI century with our modern knowledge. Instead it should be more aptly being compared to them trying to do something with hurricane flooding with knowledge from around XIV-XV century - way before Texan 100-year old dam was built... or, in fact, way before there was even Texas. Or US of A. Basically, your entire argument is founded on something of an anachronism given the specificity of the analogy. Through it you imply that Chantry is a reasonable actor (especially if compared it to our current standards) instead of being religious institution with religious convictions about how the world is or should be, and suggest that the knowledge of what they're dealing with comes close enough to knowledge Solas has about world of magic or his own creation - which can't be the case, given how many things Chantry believed in were debunked by Trespasser alone. So how can they suggest equally valid solution to a problem they weren't even aware of till recently? How is that even comparable to "insanely good engineering" or reasonable position #2, when they cannot possibly have knowledge on that level and whatever knowledge they have they have demonstrably used to further their anti-magic agenda? I also don't understand why you think the Chantry would be anywhere close to deciding side here. IMO we may cooperate with the Chantry or with specific Divine, but I don't think we're going to be their agents per se, or trying to find a solution what to do with Veil/Solas based on what Chantry would want us to do. We already stopped doing that in Inquisition and now we're likely heading towards Tevinter, which doesn't share Southern Chantry's beliefs.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 24, 2018 1:24:13 GMT
No no, hear me out. Every ORigin Story has a location assigned to a country. And everything you see in the origin is reused later when you get access to the Eluvian Network. The fact that they will reuse assets/locations doesn't make origins stories less difficult or expensive to make. All those individual scenes and individual plots, individual permutations and dialogue, individual NPCs, how it all ties to rest of the story or even the fact that they have to create multiple starting tutorials for each origin - THAT's what's expensive in origin stories. Mike Laidlaw has spent at least two interviews explaining just how hard they were to make and where they make the most sense (in a chapter that introduced us to the setting, not later). And even though Mike is out of Bioware, I don't think DA team changed its overall direction.
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Post by phoray on Feb 24, 2018 1:31:36 GMT
No no, hear me out. Every ORigin Story has a location assigned to a country. And everything you see in the origin is reused later when you get access to the Eluvian Network. The fact that they will reuse assets/locations doesn't make origins stories less difficult or expensive to make. All those individual scenes and individual plots, individual permutations and dialogue, individual NPCs, how it all ties to rest of the story or even the fact that they have to create multiple starting tutorials for each origin - THAT's what's expensive in origin stories. Mike Laidlaw has spent at least two interviews explaining just how hard they were to make and where they make the most sense (in a chapter that introduced us to the setting, not later). And even though Mike is out of Bioware, I don't think DA team changed its overall direction. But now this is the 4th Installment and every time they go forward without any natural initiation, they instead drown us in Codex and Endless Confusing Exposition to try to bring the newbies up to speed. Tevinter and Seheron/Par Vollen is completely different from southern Thedas. Mages rule, elves are for the most part slaves, any Qunari you see is likely to be an invading army, dwarves are probably going to be Noble's again with their own ruling body. DAO does NOT prepare me, a veteran, for how Northern Thedas is going to be.and they think they shouldn't have to initiate things properly? I think that's dumb. It does NOT get newbies up to speed and it's annoying to long term fans. I think I'm tired of hearing how things are too expensive when they managed three races inside of 6 starting locations in the first game.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 24, 2018 2:04:44 GMT
The fact that they will reuse assets/locations doesn't make origins stories less difficult or expensive to make. All those individual scenes and individual plots, individual permutations and dialogue, individual NPCs, how it all ties to rest of the story or even the fact that they have to create multiple starting tutorials for each origin - THAT's what's expensive in origin stories. Mike Laidlaw has spent at least two interviews explaining just how hard they were to make and where they make the most sense (in a chapter that introduced us to the setting, not later). And even though Mike is out of Bioware, I don't think DA team changed its overall direction. But now this is the 4th Installment and every time they go forward without any natural initiation, hey instead drown us in Codex and Endless Confusing Exposition to try to bring the newbies up to speed. How is 4th installment some sort of milestone? I also don't recall Endless Confusing Exposition in Inquisition that I've started my adventure in DA universe with. If folks are confused, they can always visit Dragon Age Keep and have Varric narrate all the major events since DAO to them. DA is not TES where events are removed from one another by centuries and not necessarily related to one another. They have to balance between trying to tell a continuous involved story and keeping everything relatively straight. Gaider in interview has also said that they're writing further chapters with assumption that the player has at least some knowledge of previous events. It's only sensible. I knew I was starting with 3rd installment, so I didn't expect them to explain me stuff from the start aside from some basics. It's reasonable to have only enough information to go by and refer everything else to previous content in a large, involved, modular story like this. If DA spent too much time recalling too much from past titles in each game, there'd just not much time to push the story further. Same with origins - they're not going to come at the expense of exploration or shard collecting. If they're going to give you origin stories, they're going to take away either companion or romance option or playable race or limit branching choices further in the story, because there'd be no time or money to make them. And where do you know all the information you've just shared, hmmm? All the previous titles have prepared you to an adventure in Tevinter. Heck, DAI title even gave you a Vint and Qunari companion to prepare you for that, including them introducing us to things DAO simply had no time for. Well no, THAT's dumb. Thinking that if they managed to do things in DAO means that its doable in other titles. No, it isn't. Aside from all the development shenanigans, DAO had a task of introducing us to the setting. DA4 has no such obligation. Neither did DAI or DA2. This is why they managed to push the story further than DAO did, which ended up with us slaying a big corrupted dragon we didn't really know anything about aside from it being bad and corrupted.
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Post by phoray on Feb 24, 2018 2:11:44 GMT
I think it's dumb that "whoever is responsible for the decision" is not opting for one of the most asked for items out side of better hair to be present. But thanks for calling me dumb for having an opinion, that's classy.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Feb 24, 2018 2:17:34 GMT
But now this is the 4th Installment and every time they go forward without any natural initiation, hey instead drown us in Codex and Endless Confusing Exposition to try to bring the newbies up to speed. How is 4th installment some sort of milestone? I also don't recall Endless Confusing Exposition in Inquisition that I've started my adventure in DA universe with. If folks are confused, they can always visit Dragon Age Keep and have Varric narrate all the major events since DAO to them. DA is not TES where events are removed from one another by centuries and not necessarily related to one another. They have to balance between trying to tell a continuous involved story and keeping everything relatively straight. Gaider in interview has also said that they're writing further chapters with assumption that the player has at least some knowledge of previous events. It's only sensible. I knew I was starting with 3rd installment, so I didn't expect them to explain me stuff from the start aside from some basics. It's reasonable to have only enough information to go by and refer everything else to previous content in a large, involved, modular story like this. If DA spent too much time recalling too much from past titles in each game, there'd just not much time to push the story further. Same with origins - they're not going to come at the expense of exploration or shard collecting. If they're going to give you origin stories, they're going to take away either companion or romance option or playable race or limit branching choices further in the story, because there'd be no time or money to make them. And where do you know all the information you've just shared, hmmm? All the previous titles have prepared you to an adventure in Tevinter. Heck, DAI title even gave you a Vint and Qunari companion to prepare you for that, including them introducing us to things DAO simply had no time for. Well no, THAT's dumb. Thinking that if they managed to do things in DAO means that its doable in other titles. No, it isn't. Aside from all the development shenanigans, DAO had a task of introducing us to the setting. DA4 has no such obligation. Neither did DAI or DA2. This is why they managed to push the story further than DAO did, which ended up with us slaying a big corrupted dragon we didn't really know anything about aside from it being bad and corrupted.That's one thing that immediately struck me when I played Origins. The Grey Wardens are using a very flawed method to end Blights. The whole procedure smacks of the desperate situation they must have been in during the First Blight. And they haven't managed to learn much about Darkspawn or the Blight since. They're so secretive as well. It's surprising that after the First Blight the Grey Wardens weren't accosted by a kingdom and forced to do more research on preventing more horrible Blights. What are they hiding? What else besides Corypheus? Are there other influences at play keeping them trapped in this inefficient and sacrificial position they're in? Keeping most of them from looking deeper into the Blight? Solas seems supremely unimpressed with the Grey Wardens efforts, which surprised me. He definitely knows a great deal more than he's let on, and he definitely expected the Grey Wardens to have figured out more about the Blight by now.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 24, 2018 2:36:21 GMT
I think it's dumb that "whoever is responsible for the decision" is not opting for one of the most asked for items out side of better hair to be present. But thanks for calling me dumb for having an opinion, that's classy. Um, pot meet kettle? You just characterized folks who made decision to not feature something you like (people demand many things or features, including return of HOF - that doesn't mean that their demands are reasonable or in line of what they want to design) as dumb. Like me, you don't seem to have any experience in gaming industry or how games are made or financed, you likely heard interviews where they patiently explain why they make or don't make certain decisions... yet you still called those gamedevs dumb, regardless of years they spent designing games you apparently enjoy to play. Sorry, but it merits being called dumb itself, if not entitled. And just because I think that specific opinion is dumb, doesn't mean that I think you're dumb. People have dumb opinions all the time and I'm no exception. Don't take it so personally just because I sometimes criticize some of them.
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Post by Lazarillo on Feb 24, 2018 2:42:14 GMT
Solas seems supremely unimpressed with the Grey Wardens efforts, which surprised me. He definitely knows a great deal more than he's let on, and he definitely expected the Grey Wardens to have figured out more about the Blight by now. Consider the source. When the god of lies who wants to destroy the world is put off by the goals of an organization, it might not actually be because they're bad people and/or have bad goals.
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Post by Raga on Feb 24, 2018 2:47:31 GMT
The original point wasn't even about knowing nothing or close to nothing - only that their approach has little to do with reasonable approach towards the problem that you vaguely characterized them as having. They're not approaching the issue they have to seek sensible solution to a problem - they approach it with built-in prejudice and a firm set of beliefs. What beliefs? That magic is dangerous and mages in the past have ruled tyrannically? This is objectively true. Or do you mean that "the Maker made the world and the Blight came from Tevinter trying to usurp the golden city and blah, blah." That's just an explanation for why some observable facts happened. It doesn't mean the observable facts didn't happen. It also doesn't mean that the Chantry's response to certain observable facts "Mages are dangerous. Tranquility makes mages less dangerous. Therefore we will Tranquil dangerous mages" doesn't work to their ends, that is making sure mages don't rule over people anymore. Their opinions about it's permanency seem fairly irrelevant. If if fails they would have to change stride, but isn't that what this whole question is about? Whether or not that should happen? The fact that it could be removed doesn't mean it should be removed or inevitably would be removed. The definition of innovative remains the same regardless of what your original argument was or whether I understand it. Applying new solutions to problems. How precisely are they not doing that? Why does this make a difference? It's a bad idea to try to control nature with nothing but engineering even today knowing all that we know. I've never been saying that #2 was the right solution. If it's not even the right solution for a highly definable, modern problem (hurricanes), which is what I said, why would I be implying that it's the correct solution for an abstruse, premodern problem? Is it not reasonable to try to solve the problems inherent in your world even if you don't understand them? Even if your solution is imperfect? Should you just refrain from trying to solve problems until you have the 100% verified scientific Theory of Everything? Uh, I nowhere claimed this or anything like it. I said they want to control the problem with insanely good engineering. Not that they have actually succeeded in developing said engineering. The Chantry is just one example anyway. My whole original point is that "what Solas wants" and "what the Chantry (or the Dalish or Avvar or Tevinter or whoever, whose systems are all predicated on the Veil) wants" is a false dichotomy anyway when the correct answer almost certainly lies somewhere in the middle.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Feb 24, 2018 2:50:48 GMT
Solas seems supremely unimpressed with the Grey Wardens efforts, which surprised me. He definitely knows a great deal more than he's let on, and he definitely expected the Grey Wardens to have figured out more about the Blight by now. Consider the source. When the god of lies who wants to destroy the world is put off by the goals of an organization, it might not actually be because they're bad people and/or have bad goals. Not everyone agrees with me, but I think Solas was used in the story to hint at a larger universe of possibilities that had been lost to history. The origin of the Veil, the true reason for the fall of the Elves, the Titans/Elves/Blight/Mythal mystery. I think there's probably a legit reason he's not impressed with the Wardens. Only time will tell.
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Post by Raga on Feb 24, 2018 3:04:10 GMT
That's one thing that immediately struck me when I played Origins. The Grey Wardens are using a very flawed method to end Blights. The whole procedure smacks of the desperate situation they must have been in during the First Blight. And they haven't managed to learn much about Darkspawn or the Blight since. It's actually kind of hard to specify precisely how much the Wardens do or don't know because the vast bulk of our exposure to Wardens has been through utter neophytes (the Warden and Alistair) or through a complete faker (Blackwall).
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Feb 24, 2018 3:12:24 GMT
That's one thing that immediately struck me when I played Origins. The Grey Wardens are using a very flawed method to end Blights. The whole procedure smacks of the desperate situation they must have been in during the First Blight. And they haven't managed to learn much about Darkspawn or the Blight since. It's actually kind of hard to specify precisely how much the Wardens do or don't know because the vast bulk of our exposure to Wardens has been through utter neophytes (the Warden and Alistair) or through a complete faker (Blackwall). True, but if they know anything substantially more useful than "drink blood, live short and cursed life, kill Archdemons" then they're not using it to any practical advantage. The Warden-Commander of Orlais thought that killing the Archdemons would stop the Blights. Warden-Commander is extremely high up the chain of command.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 24, 2018 3:21:34 GMT
That's one thing that immediately struck me when I played Origins. The Grey Wardens are using a very flawed method to end Blights. The whole procedure smacks of the desperate situation they must have been in during the First Blight. And they haven't managed to learn much about Darkspawn or the Blight since. They're so secretive as well. It's surprising that after the First Blight the Grey Wardens weren't accosted by a kingdom and forced to do more research on preventing more horrible Blights. What are they hiding? What else besides Corypheus? Are there other influences at play keeping them trapped in this inefficient and sacrificial position they're in? Keeping most of them from looking deeper into the Blight? It's technically not even something that ends Blight, but deals with specific symptoms of it. They know how to deal with Archdemon and cull the numbers of darkspawn, but the rest? All in all, I can't fault Wardens for trying to find any solution that works even for a while, especially with horrors happening during Archdemon-led darkspawn outpourings, or because the Blight itself is mysterious, volatile and corrupts everything it touches. It seems to be the kind of force that is not easily contained or defeated, regardless of efforts. But... after thousands of years of Wardens existing and secrets they must've hoarded, one could expect a bit more than the same spiel of hunting Archdemons and at best coming up with idea of ending Blights by killing untainted Old Gods. Judging from a hole in Western Approach (which is ancient) it wasn't even their first try in Inquisition. The rest of time seems wasted by trying to rule Anderfels or instigating rebellions to overthrow leaders they don't like (Dryden's rebellion) more than trying to figure out if there's any other way to deal with the Blight, or what it actually is - or what to do when the next blighted thing that attacks us ain't an Archdemon, but blighted magister with pet would-be Archdemon and ability to influence minds of the very people who are supposed to protect us from the threat. I'm not sure how much he's unimpressed and how much he thinks they wouldn't be able to find out the truth anyhow. He does however thinks that Joining is a bad idea, as any attempt to use the Blight as a weapon is meant to backfire. One could ask whether he thinks they've had any choice or could have found any other solution - or whether he himself knows one. Me? I think the Blight is one of those hard topics Solas may even be frustrated he can't say more (he vividly underlines how Blight is the real problem and seems scared by it), but at the same time he sees that even those who were specifically designated to fight it may have had either ignored or buried things that don't require one being an ancient elf demigod to find out or understand. I wouldn't even be surprised if Solas's frustration with Wardens comes from similar place as his frustration with the Dalish - perhaps he tried to help them through Fade or his agents and either met with resistance, rejection or saw his advice perverted or abused. So who knows... maybe we'll find out that Wardens keep secrets to other ways of fighting Blight just like Seekers kept the secret of reverting Tranquility? It wouldn't be surprising, especially that we already know they have secrets and that those secrets have a way of getting to people, and especially old, battle-hardened organizations with larger-than-life missions. DA made it a point to show that many suffered from this - even Inquisiton was getting symptomatic, given secrets it had to carry and decisions we had to make. So obviously it's not a simple, black-and-white issue. Question remains whether some things could've been done better.
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