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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Feb 23, 2018 4:00:44 GMT
Well, I don't know if "better" is the right word. To Solas, it would be the world in its natural state. What Morrigan wants is to preserve as much of the world as it was... turns out that is the world in its normal state. The Veil is an artificial construct. So, in a way, it would be like us humans getting rid of all man-made pollution and artificial environments that wrecked natural ecosystems - to restore the world to its natural state. Which would be really bad during an Ice Age but I digress... Artificial isn't necessarily bad, though. Dams are artificial. They change the natural landscape, but not necessarily for the worse. Imagine if all that water came flooding back, destroying homes and lives and everything else that was built in the meantime, all for the sake of restoring the natural waterway? Considering what it's doing to spirits and the minds of people (because they're all attached to the Fade) I'd say it's time to return to the natural state. The whole mind/spirit dynamic is screwed up and is creating more demons. The Veil is going to come down anyway, it just gets weaker the more violence it's exposed to - as demonstrated in areas around the world. The Veil was designed to trap the Evanuris and since then it's caused more harm than good.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 23, 2018 4:11:40 GMT
Well, I don't know if "better" is the right word. To Solas, it would be the world in its natural state. What Morrigan wants is to preserve as much of the world as it was... turns out that is the world in its normal state. The Veil is an artificial construct. So, in a way, it would be like us humans getting rid of all man-made pollution and artificial environments that wrecked natural ecosystems - to restore the world to its natural state. Which would be really bad during an Ice Age but I digress... Artificial isn't necessarily bad, though. Dams are artificial. They change the natural landscape, but not necessarily for the worse. Imagine if all that water came flooding back, destroying homes and lives and everything else that was built in the meantime, all for the sake of restoring the natural waterway? Yes, dams are artificial. But if you put a dam in a wrong place or build it wrong you have a chance of ruining something further, instead of improving things. History knows many dams which broke, flooded the valleys and killed whole towns, or those that ultimately ruined the environment on way larger scale. The Aral Sea Disaster is a great example of that. While featuring more river reroutes than dams, it is considered "one of the planet's worst environmental disasters" for good reasons. This is what I meant by science denialism before. The Soviet Union largely responsible for catastrophe above has had issues with accepting facts, which is what led to catastrophes like above. Lysenkoism is another example of putting fantasy over facts and making everyone suffer because of that. For things to work, we need to know them well. For things to work in Thedas, people can't deny or discount magic, because magic is part of their world, just like gravity, radiation or atoms is part of ours. Trying to deny or ignore that can only lead to erroneous assumptions and erroneous solutions, which later can do more harm than good.
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Post by TheodoricFriede on Feb 23, 2018 4:28:22 GMT
I wouldn't. I would be such an unbearable prick. I mean just the worst.
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 23, 2018 4:32:18 GMT
I like this interpretation. But then they turn around and use language like "mediocre" and "the brilliant few" - which sounds to me like they're prioritizing mages and magic. As if there's something wrong with the "common". Well, that only makes sense if you think that 'mediocre' is interchangeable with 'common'. I also don't think that either Morrigan or Solas mean that in that sense of access to magic. Maybe you'd onto something all we had were those few banters, but when we put that in context of what else they say, it doesn't really hold up. Both of them are about the betterment of oneself. About pushing boundaries and reaching the height of one's potential, and especially about about being open to possibilities and receptive to new ideas. Solas especially. And he has many dialogues with companions in which he discusses them striving for more that have little to do with magic - like with Sera about her cause. Or asking Varric why Orzammar dwarves prefer stale existence underground instead of using lyrium as leverage to help them restore the kingdom or claim sovereign land on the surface. Heck, he also has a banter with Vivienne, who's already a mage and maintains the veneer of utter superiority over another. Solas: Tell me, Enchanter. Do you even bother to explore the Fade in your dreams?
Vivienne: I prefer to explore the world I actually live in.
Solas: Pity. You could be much more powerful if you ventured outside your narrow preconceptions.
Vivienne: Ah, the temptation to leave the path. You sound like a pride demon.
Solas: Enchanter, any pride demon you met would just walk away, shaking its head and laughing uncontrollably.
Vivienne: Oh darling, more than one already has. So it's more about how one views magic and a potential Solas sees in an open-minded approach to it, rather than magic itself. Then there's this banter: Vivienne: You must be disappointed, apostate. Your rebels have not found the freedom they hoped for. Solas: I planted no seeds in your garden, Enchanter. You grew that fruit yourself. Vivienne: And I will once again ensure they are protected from a world that hates and fears them. Solas: While mages live in depravation you do not share? You lord their mystique over those not so gifted. Well played, Enchanter. In another age you might have ruled an empire. Vivienne: You are too kind, my dear. But this age is still young. Aside from it establishing that the issue of mediocrity existed in magical Elvenhan, and Solas stood against powerful Evanuris for crushing those beneath them, Solas is seething at Vivienne for 'lording her mystique/gift over others' and not doing much to help those in situation worse than her, be it mage or commoner. So Solas may believe that some people have easier time reaching their peak, or have unique gifts, but considers it unconscionable to not help those not so gifted reach their potential too. It's congruent with his willingness to share knowledge and applauding characters striving for better, or helping others. This has nothing to do with world's realness, but acceptance of how the world is. In a super-ironic twist, Thedosians have issue with accepting magic as part of natural world, just like some Earthlings have issue accepting that our world is likely entirely devoid of such element. Each preconception can hurt the world, especially if scale of refusing facts is large enough. Also - it's been already established that one 'distinct state' of Thedas is, basically, incomplete. That Fade WAS part of natural world and there's something akin to a magical dam holding it back, and thus hurting the world, with people hurting it further by... well... demonizing the other side. Plus, the fact that - for now - Thedas may exist in a different state than it did doesn't mean that it may last like it for much longer. Solas does imply that everybody's running out of time, and Flemeth/OGB Kieran/Sandal indicates that new era is coming. Thus re-balance may be necessary, even if it's not a re-balance that will shift things exactly how they were before. I didn't say anything about magic 'floating back' peacefully. I don't expect for the process to be peaceful, but how catastrophic it could be, I guess we're yet to find out. "One day the magic will come back. All of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part, and the skies will open wide. When he rises, everyone will see." "We stand upon the precipice of change. The world fears the inevitable plummet into the abyss. Watch for that moment... and when it comes, do not hesitate to leap. It is only when you fall that you learn whether you can fly."Question remains if it is enough. Dragons came back, but so did horrors like Corypheus, enormous beings with unknown agendas cause earthquakes that shake whole regions, dark shadows and echoes of ancient threats show up in places, and through all that we have beings who were once thought of as gods or caused events that re-shaped the world are walking on land and nudging events towards something that goes waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond common politics of the Chantry. Solas's insistence on "striving for more" is another thing that feels like superiority, because it's an idea he aims not only at himself but at other people - this feeling that he knows what's best for others, that what they ought to be is better than what they are, regardless of their own feelings on the matter. His banter with Varric touches on this, where they talk about the guy who just "gave up" and whether that's acceptable. Almost all of his interactions with Varric touch on this sort of thing. And yeah, in this case it's not magical superiority, but it's believing that the way things were is inherently superior to the way things are. Dwarves and elves had a specific place in his world and they should strive to be... well, not what they are now. But why should Sera and Varric strive for something Solas views as more when they're perfectly content as is? Varric: So we lost the Deep Roads, and Orzammar's too proud to ask for help. So what? We're not Orzammar and we're not our empire. There are tens of thousands of us living up here in the sunlight now, and it's not that bad. Life goes on. It's just different than it used to be. Solas: And you have no concept of what that difference cost you. Varric: I know what it didn't cost me. I'm still here, even after all those thaigs fell. About the Fade: The way I see it, the Fade was part of the natural world. It was normal. Now there's a new normal and it's better to work with what you've got than throw the baby out with the bathwater. I'd probably be way more okay with saying adios to the Veil if I knew that no one would be hurt or violated by the change, but since I doubt that's going to happen..... Artificial isn't necessarily bad, though. Dams are artificial. They change the natural landscape, but not necessarily for the worse. Imagine if all that water came flooding back, destroying homes and lives and everything else that was built in the meantime, all for the sake of restoring the natural waterway? Considering what it's doing to spirits and the minds of people (because they're all attached to the Fade) I'd say it's time to return to the natural state. The whole mind/spirit dynamic is screwed up and is creating more demons. The Veil is going to come down anyway, it just gets weaker the more violence it's exposed to - as demonstrated in areas around the world. The Veil was designed to trap the Evanuris and since then it's caused more harm than good. I'd rather shore up the dam than let it crumble.
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 23, 2018 4:37:20 GMT
Artificial isn't necessarily bad, though. Dams are artificial. They change the natural landscape, but not necessarily for the worse. Imagine if all that water came flooding back, destroying homes and lives and everything else that was built in the meantime, all for the sake of restoring the natural waterway? Yes, dams are artificial. But if you put a dam in a wrong place or build it wrong you have a chance of ruining something further, instead of improving things. History knows many dams which broke, flooded the valleys and killed whole towns, or those that ultimately ruined the environment on way larger scale. The Aral Sea Disaster is a great example of that. While featuring more river reroutes than dams, it is considered "one of the planet's worst environmental disasters" for good reasons. This is what I meant by science denialism before. The Soviet Union largely responsible for catastrophe above has had issues with accepting facts, which is what led to catastrophes like above. Lysenkoism is another example of putting fantasy over fiction and making everyone suffer because of that. For things to work, we need to know them well. For things to work in Thedas, people can't deny or discount magic, because magic is part of their world, just like gravity, radiation or atoms is part of ours. Trying to deny or ignore that can only lead to erroneous assumptions and erroneous solutions, which later can do more harm than good. Yes, but why is the Veil inherently bad (or a bad dam, as it were)? It doesn't seem like it's a dam built in the wrong place. It seems as if peoples' lack of understanding is the problem - not knowing how malleable spirits are, that kind of thing. But the Veil itself doesn't seem to be a problem, it just prevents magic from being quite so widespread, so why does it need to come down in order for people not to deny or discount magic?
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Feb 23, 2018 4:50:02 GMT
Yes, dams are artificial. But if you put a dam in a wrong place or build it wrong you have a chance of ruining something further, instead of improving things. History knows many dams which broke, flooded the valleys and killed whole towns, or those that ultimately ruined the environment on way larger scale. The Aral Sea Disaster is a great example of that. While featuring more river reroutes than dams, it is considered "one of the planet's worst environmental disasters" for good reasons. This is what I meant by science denialism before. The Soviet Union largely responsible for catastrophe above has had issues with accepting facts, which is what led to catastrophes like above. Lysenkoism is another example of putting fantasy over fiction and making everyone suffer because of that. For things to work, we need to know them well. For things to work in Thedas, people can't deny or discount magic, because magic is part of their world, just like gravity, radiation or atoms is part of ours. Trying to deny or ignore that can only lead to erroneous assumptions and erroneous solutions, which later can do more harm than good. Yes, but why is the Veil inherently bad (or a bad dam, as it were)? It doesn't seem like it's a dam built in the wrong place. It seems as if peoples' lack of understanding is the problem - not knowing how malleable spirits are, that kind of thing. But the Veil itself doesn't seem to be a problem, it just prevents magic from being quite so widespread, so why does it need to come down in order for people not to deny or discount magic? It is bad, though. It's already created in many races "mages" and these folks aren't only persecuted in the real world, they're constantly under siege by spirts. Then spirits are deformed and corrupted as their relationship with the real world is now skewed. None of that has been helpful.
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 23, 2018 4:54:41 GMT
Yes, but why is the Veil inherently bad (or a bad dam, as it were)? It doesn't seem like it's a dam built in the wrong place. It seems as if peoples' lack of understanding is the problem - not knowing how malleable spirits are, that kind of thing. But the Veil itself doesn't seem to be a problem, it just prevents magic from being quite so widespread, so why does it need to come down in order for people not to deny or discount magic? It is bad, though. It's already created in many races "mages" and these folks aren't only persecuted in the real world, they're constantly under siege by spirts. Then spirits are deformed and corrupted as their relationship with the real world is now skewed. None of that has been helpful. But is the solution really "make everyone a mage against their will"? Even in a Veil-less world, spirits' nature can change. It just seems better to educate people on how spirits work and why they manifest as they do. Educate people about magic - how the Avvar do it, how Tevinter does it (minus the spirit binding ofc).
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Feb 23, 2018 4:58:58 GMT
It is bad, though. It's already created in many races "mages" and these folks aren't only persecuted in the real world, they're constantly under siege by spirts. Then spirits are deformed and corrupted as their relationship with the real world is now skewed. None of that has been helpful. But is the solution really "make everyone a mage against their will"? Even in a Veil-less world, spirits' nature can change. It just seems better to educate people on how spirits work and why they manifest as they do. Educate people about magic - how the Avvar do it, how Tevinter does it (minus the spirit binding ofc). The Avvar and the Tevinters both have problems with demons and mages. So yes, the solution is really to put the world to rights. After the initial change, everyone's minds will work as they should and spirits will stop being needlessly corrupted.
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 23, 2018 5:03:50 GMT
But is the solution really "make everyone a mage against their will"? Even in a Veil-less world, spirits' nature can change. It just seems better to educate people on how spirits work and why they manifest as they do. Educate people about magic - how the Avvar do it, how Tevinter does it (minus the spirit binding ofc). The Avvar and the Tevinters both have problems with demons and mages. So yes, the solution is really to put the world to rights. After the initial change, everyone's minds will work as they should and spirits will stop being needlessly corrupted. But you'd still have problems with demons, because spirits can be influenced and changed and.... yeah. I'm not seeing how that would fix anything. It would just make a lot of people who didn't want to be mages fall into despair or die, and maybe their negative emotions would pollute the spirits around them and cause even more demons.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 23, 2018 5:04:08 GMT
Solas's insistence on "striving for more" is another thing that feels like superiority, because it's an idea he aims not only at himself but at other people - this feeling that he knows what's best for others, that what they ought to be is better than what they are, regardless of their own feelings on the matter. Switching the goalpost. We've switched from "Solas feels superior because of magic" to "Solas feels superior because he dares to suggest that people can be more than they are". Which, hey, we don't really know if they can, since we don't know what Solas knows that we (or Thedosians) don't know. If he believed things were inherently superior before, I don't think the very first thing he'd say about man on an island is "he could have struck out on his own to find a new land, new people. But he stayed." Plus, we aren't talking just about Varric or Sera. Varric even admits that - when they're talking about Orzammar - Solas isn't saying anything Varric hasn't said himself. Nevermind that both in cases of Sera or Varric Solas in the end accepts their points - either admits to Varric he's been wrong in thinking that the man on the island has given up (and said to Varric that he's 'wiser than most' when he said that he's happy who he is) and told Sera that she's fine as she is. He's accepted their reasons, even if initially he saw room for improvemente. I don't really find much wrong with that, if he starts the discussion in one mindset, but adjust it over the course of getting to know someone's perspective. Yes, but what if accepting current normal is throwing baby out with the bathwater, especially in the long run? To make more parallels - the fact that we now have the world that is rapidly growing hot doesn't mean that we should just accept and better 'work with it'. Plainly because we know that temperature can't rise too high - a it will, if we keep the current normal. And if it keeps up, not only we're risking catastrophe for entire civilization, but the whole planet may turn as uninhabitable as its sister, Venus.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Feb 23, 2018 5:05:45 GMT
The Avvar and the Tevinters both have problems with demons and mages. So yes, the solution is really to put the world to rights. After the initial change, everyone's minds will work as they should and spirits will stop being needlessly corrupted. But you'd still have problems with demons, because spirits can be influenced and changed and.... yeah. I'm not seeing how that would fix anything. It would just make a lot of people who didn't want to be mages fall into despair or die, and maybe their negative emotions would pollute the spirits around them and cause even more demons. The negative emotions things messing with demons is caused by the Veil.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 23, 2018 5:20:40 GMT
Yes, but why is the Veil inherently bad (or a bad dam, as it were)? You're asking that, when its architect and the one of the few people who saw both worlds, has issues with it? And how do you conclude that? Where do you get the information to deem that?? Do you have any insight into DA universe past Trespasser that you so easily assess that the dam is not built wrong? Solas himself tells us that the Veil prevents true understanding between spirits and Thedosians. And as much as his perspective may be skewed, considering that he built the thing, observed world for millennia and has insight into how the world was before and thus can compare it to present state of affairs, I don't think we're (yet) in position to discount his assessment. And fact that it's let the world survive whatever Evanuris could have done to it doesn't mean that it's a wanted - or permanent - solution. We don't know exactly what are all functions of the Veil, but we know that Solas only raised it when he thought he had no choice, and only when he deemed that 'every other alternative was worse'. This wasn't a carefully planned construct that was supposed to make the world better overall, as much as a last ditch effort with separation of Fade and world being an unwanted consequence.
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 23, 2018 5:28:35 GMT
Solas's insistence on "striving for more" is another thing that feels like superiority, because it's an idea he aims not only at himself but at other people - this feeling that he knows what's best for others, that what they ought to be is better than what they are, regardless of their own feelings on the matter. Switching the goalpost. We've switched from "Solas feels superior because of magic" to "Solas feels superior because he dares to suggest that people can be more than they are". That's fair, I lost track of my point. But I do think there's an element of superiority in insisting to people that they should strive to be more than they are, because it suggests you think they're lacking in some way. Even if they're perfectly content as they are. He concedes that they have a point, but it doesn't seem to have changed anything. He's still plotting his.... plot. If anything they said sunk in ("they'd just make a new top and frig it all up", "hey we're fine as we are") he wouldn't be trying to remake the world. He'd live in it. He just doesn't want to and that's his prerogative. I'm not sure this example holds up, but the best, and only, option is to work with it. Do what you can to educate people about global warming and cut emissions. Nuking the world and starting over should be the last resort. But you'd still have problems with demons, because spirits can be influenced and changed and.... yeah. I'm not seeing how that would fix anything. It would just make a lot of people who didn't want to be mages fall into despair or die, and maybe their negative emotions would pollute the spirits around them and cause even more demons. The negative emotions things messing with demons is caused by the Veil. I'm confused, then. What determined a spirit's nature before the Veil went up? Was Pride permanently Pride? Was Wisdom permanently Wisdom?
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 23, 2018 5:32:49 GMT
Yes, but why is the Veil inherently bad (or a bad dam, as it were)? You're asking that, when its architect and the one of the few people who saw both worlds, has issues with it? And how do you conclude that? Where do you get the information to deem that?? Do you have any insight into DA universe past Trespasser that you so easily assess that the dam is not built wrong? Solas himself tells us that the Veil prevents true understanding between spirits and Thedosians. And as much as his perspective may be skewed, considering that he built the thing, observed world for millennia and has insight into how the world was before and thus can compare it to present state of affairs, I don't think we're (yet) in position to discount his assessment. And fact that it's let the world survive whatever Evanuris could have done to it doesn't mean that it's a wanted - or permanent - solution. We don't know exactly what are all functions of the Veil, but we know that Solas only raised it when he thought he had no choice, and only when he deemed that 'every other alternative was worse'. This wasn't a carefully planned construct that was supposed to make the world better overall, as much as a last ditch effort with separation of Fade and world being an unwanted consequence. I said it seems like it's not built wrong or like it's unsalvageable. Obviously we can't know. But I don't think Solas knows either, given how hastily he put the thing together and how little he understands about the modern world and the people in it.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Feb 23, 2018 5:36:19 GMT
I'm confused, then. What determined a spirit's nature before the Veil went up? Was Pride permanently Pride? Was Wisdom permanently Wisdom? Good question. But both Solas and Cole comment more than once about how the Veil distorts spirits. Spirits like Command can't even figure out the world because of what the Veil has done to the world.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 23, 2018 5:40:20 GMT
I said it seems like it's not built wrong or like it's unsalvageable. Obviously we can't know. But I don't think Solas knows either, given how hastily he put the thing together and how little he understands about the modern world and the people in it. He may have had hastily put the thing together, but he had thousands of years to observe effects and compare the world to the previous one. And so long as we don't know ourselves what he understands about people (because he seems to know things about people and its spirits that they themselves seem oblivious to) I don't think we can dismiss his understanding of modern people so easily.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 23, 2018 6:10:21 GMT
That's fair, I lost track of my point. But I do think there's an element of superiority in insisting to people that they should strive to be more than they are, because it suggests you think they're lacking in some way. Even if they're perfectly content as they are. But both Sera and Varric aren't perfectly content with who they are? Otherwise they wouldn't have their story arcs. But that's beside the point - I don't necessarily view seeing the potential and encouraging betterment as position necessarily stemming from sense of superiority. You can ask if it's called for or whether constant strive for being more than we are can at point turn unhealthy, but... we're not at this point? Solas lays out what he sees, argues about it, hears someone's points and after hearing their reasoning concedes that there are instances in which he's been wrong - which in itself is proof that he practices what he preaches. The fact that he continues his plot doesn't mean that he continues it because of the above. Weekes admitted that Solas was this close to throwing it all away out of love and admiration for Inquisitor and do exactly that - live in that world. And if he didn't do that - if he had to push even love away because he concluded that he has to continue, his reasons may be way more complex than just restoring elves/magic/conscious connection to the Fade "just 'cuz tis better that way". We don't have enough information to assess whether Thedas is past a point of no return. All we know is that, according to Solas, all he has left are terrible choices. I guess we're going to find out whether that's true - but what's true is also that Thedas experiences way more potent threats that possibly endanger life on global level (Blight, Titans, Evanuris, maybe Forgotten Ones) and likely may not have time for long-term prevention like education and cutting emissions could have on Earth (nevermind that according to many experts we're past that point).
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Post by Raga on Feb 23, 2018 15:43:02 GMT
For things to work, we need to know them well. For things to work in Thedas, people can't deny or discount magic, because magic is part of their world, just like gravity, radiation or atoms is part of ours. Trying to deny or ignore that can only lead to erroneous assumptions and erroneous solutions, which later can do more harm than good. The thing is that people aren't denying it. Nobody's denying it. The argument is how is the best way to mitigate the worst side effects of it. Since we are using a nature & natural world example, I can give an analogy: I live on the Texas Gulf Coast which is insanely prone to killer hurricanes. The deadliest hurricane in US history actually happened here in 1900 in Galveston and killed about 6000 people. The whole region is also very prone to flooding from both storm surge and all the bayous and flat ground and swamps. How do you deal with this problem? 1. Some people say the best option is to let it go back to the way it was 300 years ago and just don't build houses or cities here. 2. Some people say the best option is get insanely good at engineering and built awesome flood controls, stellar drainage systems, and with materials resistant to hurricane force winds. 3. Some say a mix of the above is better, say, reverting some stuff back to prairie to allow for more natural drainage, not building stuff in the worst flood zones, and also implementing improved building and engineering standards to make the buildings that are here stronger. I think Solas stance is basically #1 and the Chantry's stance is basically #2, when it seems patently obvious to me that choice #3 is the best.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 23, 2018 20:15:52 GMT
For things to work, we need to know them well. For things to work in Thedas, people can't deny or discount magic, because magic is part of their world, just like gravity, radiation or atoms is part of ours. Trying to deny or ignore that can only lead to erroneous assumptions and erroneous solutions, which later can do more harm than good. The thing is that people aren't denying it. Nobody's denying it. The argument is how is the best way to mitigate the worst side effects of it. Since we are using a nature & natural world example, I can give an analogy: I live on the Texas Gulf Coast which is insanely prone to killer hurricanes. The deadliest hurricane in US history actually happened here in 1900 in Galveston and killed about 6000 people. The whole region is also very prone to flooding from both storm surge and all the bayous and flat ground and swamps. How do you deal with this problem? 1. Some people say the best option is to let it go back to the way it was 300 years ago and just don't build houses or cities here. 2. Some people say the best option is get insanely good at engineering and built awesome flood controls, stellar drainage systems, and with materials resistant to hurricane force winds. 3. Some say a mix of the above is better, say, reverting some stuff back to prairie to allow for more natural drainage, not building stuff in the worst flood zones, and also implementing improved building and engineering standards to make the buildings that are here stronger. I think Solas stance is basically #1 and the Chantry's stance is basically #2, when it seems patently obvious to me that choice #3 is the best. I'm not sure that analogy works, because I don't think the sides can be easily compartmentalized that way. I could write more, but now I only have time to tackle one issue. The Chantry stance is... nowhere near #2. Since we're comparing magic to nature the Chantry would be basically... lock all water away and demonize it. Vaporize all water that got into houses with hurricanes. Characterize hurricanes as either divine retribution or demonic action instead of natural phenomenon that is in fact as beneficial as it is destructive for locals (like providing global heat balance or bringing rainfall to areas that need it). Soon enough you'd have people paralyzed with fear even when they encounter soft drizzle, nevermind they'd be dying of thirst soon enough. See the issue? That is not a reasonable stance. Nor a reasonable solution. Because the Chantry (though that's not just Chantry issue) is not really interested with how the world really works - only how they want it to work. They don't even have tools to build or maintain 'awesome flood controls'. Heck - even the 'flood control' they have is something they don't really understand and think it has a very different provenience or nature.
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Post by Raga on Feb 23, 2018 20:26:26 GMT
I'm not sure that analogy works, because I don't think the sides can be easily compartmentalized that way. I could write more, but now I only have time to tackle one issue. The Chantry stance is... nowhere near #2. Since we're comparing magic to nature the Chantry would be basically... lock all water away and demonize it. Vaporize all water that got into houses with hurricanes. Characterize hurricanes as either divine retribution or demonic action instead of natural phenomenon that is in fact as beneficial as it is destructive for locals (like providing global heat balance or bringing rainfall to areas that need it). Soon enough you'd have people paralyzed with fear even when they encounter soft drizzle, nevermind they'd be dying of thirst soon enough. See the issue? That is not a reasonable stance. Nor a reasonable solution. Because the Chantry (though that's not just Chantry issue) is not really interested with how the world really works - only how they want it to work. They don't even have tools to build or maintain 'awesome flood controls'. Heck - even the 'flood control' they have is something they don't really understand and think it has a very different provenience or nature. This is an exaggeration of the Chantry's stance. The only people we know of who have anything like the stance you are describing are the Qunari. Also, since when has it been necessary to really understand a thing in order to enact meaningful control measures? To go back to my hurricane analogy, a sea wall was built after that hurricane on Galveston island and this was 100 years before we really understood how hurricanes formed, how to track them, etc. etc. The city has never been wrecked by a hurricane since. Parts of it flooded? Sure. Literally reduced to a pile of rubble and bodies? Never since then. The Chantry has achieved its primary goal, which was Andraste's goal, which is that mages *wouldn't* run society as they did in ancient Tevinter. (This is not a defense of the Chantry system, which as I already stated is not the best solution but a statement that it's not an abject failure and also not based principally upon willful denial).
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Post by phoray on Feb 23, 2018 20:50:16 GMT
So if they were to have Qunari PC in Tevinter, what would be an origin/background story you could get behind?
Edit Add: Clarification. Just like DAI PC couldn't be named Divine, because a Qunari Mage could never be Divine, there are just some backgrounds of Qunari that aren't going to work.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 23, 2018 21:00:29 GMT
I'm not sure that analogy works, because I don't think the sides can be easily compartmentalized that way. I could write more, but now I only have time to tackle one issue. The Chantry stance is... nowhere near #2. Since we're comparing magic to nature the Chantry would be basically... lock all water away and demonize it. Vaporize all water that got into houses with hurricanes. Characterize hurricanes as either divine retribution or demonic action instead of natural phenomenon that is in fact as beneficial as it is destructive for locals (like providing global heat balance or bringing rainfall to areas that need it). Soon enough you'd have people paralyzed with fear even when they encounter soft drizzle, nevermind they'd be dying of thirst soon enough. See the issue? That is not a reasonable stance. Nor a reasonable solution. Because the Chantry (though that's not just Chantry issue) is not really interested with how the world really works - only how they want it to work. They don't even have tools to build or maintain 'awesome flood controls'. Heck - even the 'flood control' they have is something they don't really understand and think it has a very different provenience or nature. This is an exaggeration of the Chantry's stance. The only people we know of who have anything like the stance you are describing are the Qunari. The Southern Chantry was the one that was famously locking and tightly controlling all the mages they could find in Circles. Kinda what the mage rebellion was about, wasn't it? Then they scared people about magic so much, that they either killed young mages or immediately called Templars to deal with them. It was so bad, that some mages (like Wynne or Vivienne) think heir golden cage is a safe haven from populace too conditioned to not have a terrified or violent reaction to anything magical. And the Qunari in that analogy would lock it away even more (while at the same time they'd keep tightly controlled water cannons just in case they needed to use them to pacify people with and demonstrate how dangerous they are) and be even more determined to get rid of water everywhere, including their neighbors - with their ultimate goal being to vaporize water everywhere. 100 years ago is not that long ago - it's been around 200 years since science and proper understanding of the world is slowly overtaking superstitious thinking. So we may have not known how hurricanes work a century ago, but we already had better idea than... dunno... pray? Form magical totems that were supposed to keep the hurricane flooding at bay or something? Sacrifice a goat? So the foothold was there. In Thedas we're not yet at the time when we even have much of that foothold, because we're at time when hurricanes are portrayed as largely unknowable phenomenons that maybe could be warded off by fervent praying or giving huge sums to Chantry claiming that it has the solution. And they achieved that goal by going grotesquely overboard. There's a difference between not allowing mages to rule a society and what Chantry did to mages - basically imprisoning them for life and keeping all they could on a tight leash (oh, and profiting from their work, with many Circles not really seeing benefits). The purported slaver has now become the enslaved, basically. I'm fairly sure that's not what Andraste had in mind, especially given that she was likely a mage herself (with the Chantry being quite determined to keep quiet about it - just like they were determined to purge virtually all notions of magic or mages working for good from records) and fought against slavery in any form. So yeah, willful denial it is.
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Post by Raga on Feb 23, 2018 21:08:32 GMT
The only willful denial being practiced here is your insistence that 1) the Chantry has no understanding whatsoever of how magic, the Fade, and spirits work and 2) that they 100% without variance always portray magic as demonic, evil, destructive, unnatural.
This is just demonstrably not true. I could go out listing a million examples here, but I'm really lazy, not really inclined to get into an argument with hyperbole other than to point out that it *is* hyperbole, and it's a lot easier to just say "read the Codex" and/or talk to all the various mage and Chantry NPCs in all three games then to try to rewrite everything they say here.
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Post by Raga on Feb 23, 2018 21:10:46 GMT
So if they were to have Qunari PC in Tevinter, what would be an origin/background story you could get behind? From Seheron since a Qunari from Seheron could realistically be *anything:* Vashoth, Tal-Vashoth, actual Qunari, etc. It would maximize role-playing potential.
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Post by phoray on Feb 23, 2018 21:14:05 GMT
So if they were to have Qunari PC in Tevinter, what would be an origin/background story you could get behind? From Seheron since a Qunari from Seheron could realistically be *anything:* Vashoth, Tal-Vashoth, actual Qunari, etc. It would maximize role-playing potential. would that make sense as an origin that would allowed to rub shoulders with Magisters and have a hand in forming Tevinter though?
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