midnight tea
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 1, 2017 20:35:57 GMT
I'm with gervaise21 in that I have a really hard time ranking the games against each other, because they all have really distinct high and low points, that it's surprisingly hard to compare them, despite enjoying them all. That said, my expectations for DA4 in terms of quality compared to the previous entries is very low. In terms of story, I fear we're going to get "Dragon Age Inquisition: Part 2", and more of the same stumbling points in the writing right along with that, which is going to cascade down into the presentation of the game being very similar as well. The two things that could save it could be a really good and compelling set of companions with game systems that work well with that, or some significant improvements to gameplay. In the case of the latter, it's gonna be hard to tweak what Inquisition had further, just because it already was a lot of fun. And in the case of the former, it's far too early to even begin to guess how that's going to look. So while I currently feel that, more or less, Origins = 2 = Inquisition, I also think, or maybe just strongly fear, that I'll find DA4 worse than the rest. It is curious. People feared andromeda would be inquisition in space, and now you fear that DA4 will be inquisition part 2. It seems the plots of and gameplay of modern Bioware games are being predicted based on DAI I find the whole thing amusing. Even more amusing if we take into consideration of what Mike Laidlaw said in recent interview that after they've made a choice to go with voiced protagonist in DA2, people were complaining that they were turning Dragon Age into Mass Effect...
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Post by arvaarad on Jul 1, 2017 21:18:56 GMT
All I know is that I'll be very disappointed if I don't have the opportunity to wipe out a dalish clan again. It's been a tradition in every Dragon Age game thus far. It's also safe to assume after Morrigan, Anders, Solas, and Blackwall that any potential love interest who repeatedly warns you not to seriously get involved with them is hiding something pretty nasty. You've been warned. I'm almost waiting for a plot twist - a romanceable mage who repeatedly warns about romancing them will turn out to be THE perfect cinnamon roll, while most trustworthy companion will turn out to have the nastiest secret, lul. Still crossing all my fingers and toes that we'll be the ones with the dark secret. Not like Revan, where the player only discovers it at the end, but full-on "oh by the way, don't let people find out you work for the Ben-Hassrath/agents of Fen'Harel/Venatori/Sha-Brytol, or you're hosed". Would be the perfect excuse to give every race super intense backgrounds that they're (almost) never allowed to mention in conversation. Solves the branching problem!
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Post by Lazarillo on Jul 1, 2017 21:25:18 GMT
It is curious. People feared andromeda would be inquisition in space, and now you fear that DA4 will be inquisition part 2. It seems the plots of and gameplay of modern Bioware games are being predicted based on DAI I don't think it's that surprising. Inquisition was, according to people who are apparently in the know, a pretty big success. It's reasonable that they'd continue to try to emulate that. Now, granted, I can't compare it to ME:A since I haven't played that yet (I want to some day, but I'm waiting for the price to come down and/or a collected pack with whatever inevitable DLCs are released), so I don't know if those "fears" came to life or not. However, when I look at people's comments, it seems like what a lot of fans want, also, is "Inquisition Part 2". I disagree, for a lot of reasons, and I see a lot of problems with that approach, but if the devs look back and say "the fans want more of the same, and they bought a lot of it the first time!" then it seems logical they'd try to do that with DA4. I'm hoping for something more compelling than that...but I'm not expecting it.
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midnight tea
Twitter Guru
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Posts: 7,095 Likes: 16,599
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 1, 2017 21:30:35 GMT
I'm almost waiting for a plot twist - a romanceable mage who repeatedly warns about romancing them will turn out to be THE perfect cinnamon roll, while most trustworthy companion will turn out to have the nastiest secret, lul. Still crossing all my fingers and toes that we'll be the ones with the dark secret. Not like Revan, where the player only discovers it at the end, but full-on "oh by the way, don't let people find out you work for the Ben-Hassrath/agents of Fen'Harel/Venatori/Sha-Brytol, or you're hosed". Would be the perfect excuse to give every race super intense backgrounds that they're (almost) never allowed to mention in conversation. Solves the branching problem! *whispers into the wind*: "Executorsssss.... " I am entirely for such twist. In DA4 you're not swarmed by secret agents - YOU are the secret agent! Also, it would make sense in the context of what both Patrick Weekes and Mike Laidlaw said (on separate occasion and entirely unprompted) about people being able to betray organization they're working with. Of course question remains whether - if that happens - we'd have an ability to betray, say, Inquisition or the organization we're supposed to work for.
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Post by arvaarad on Jul 1, 2017 21:39:19 GMT
*whispers into the wind*: "Executorsssss.... " Heheh, we all know the Executors are probably just three dudes in a treehouse. "Welllllllcome to our dooooomain, the Noooooortheeeern Connnnntinent! Lonnnnng haaaave weeeeee obsssserveeed youuuuu frommmm afaaaa- ooop. No. No. Close the beaded curtain! There is nothing to see here!"
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Post by tacsear on Jul 1, 2017 21:59:39 GMT
It is curious. People feared andromeda would be inquisition in space, and now you fear that DA4 will be inquisition part 2. It seems the plots of and gameplay of modern Bioware games are being predicted based on DAI I don't think it's that surprising. Inquisition was, according to people who are apparently in the know, a pretty big success. It's reasonable that they'd continue to try to emulate that. Now, granted, I can't compare it to ME:A since I haven't played that yet (I want to some day, but I'm waiting for the price to come down and/or a collected pack with whatever inevitable DLCs are released), so I don't know if those "fears" came to life or not. However, when I look at people's comments, it seems like what a lot of fans want, also, is "Inquisition Part 2". I disagree, for a lot of reasons, and I see a lot of problems with that approach, but if the devs look back and say "the fans want more of the same, and they bought a lot of it the first time!" then it seems logical they'd try to do that with DA4. I'm hoping for something more compelling than that...but I'm not expecting it. I think it will be what DAO was to da2. That doesn't necessarily mean that it will have lots in common with da2, but you couldn't play it without playing origins first. DA4 is likely to take inquisition as a foundation and build up from there. Mea isn't inquisition in space but I wish it were really
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Post by tacsear on Jul 1, 2017 22:00:25 GMT
It is curious. People feared andromeda would be inquisition in space, and now you fear that DA4 will be inquisition part 2. It seems the plots of and gameplay of modern Bioware games are being predicted based on DAI I find the whole thing amusing. Even more amusing if we take into consideration of what Mike Laidlaw said in recent interview that after they've made a choice to go with voiced protagonist in DA2, people were complaining that they were turning Dragon Age into Mass Effect... People are always afraid of change. And Morrigan aggrees with me
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midnight tea
Twitter Guru
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Posts: 7,095 Likes: 16,599
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 1, 2017 22:16:05 GMT
*whispers into the wind*: "Executorsssss.... " Heheh, we all know the Executors are probably just three dudes in a treehouse. "Welllllllcome to our dooooomain, the Noooooortheeeern Connnnntinent! Lonnnnng haaaave weeeeee obsssserveeed youuuuu frommmm afaaaa- ooop. No. No. Close the beaded curtain! There is nothing to see here!" "Cosplayers, we're just cosplayers! Please don't be mad, we were just bored!" Anyway - one thing that I'd consider a big challenge to overcome in a scenario where we'd be put in shoes of secret agent to foreign power is... how would players stay motivated to keep being a secret agent? In case of Inquisition's agent being flipped that'd be an easier thing - we start finding out things that would make us doubt our side and switch to another, but the other way around? It'd likely either require some meaty revelations from the very start, or everything we did from game 1-3 being questioned - we may have played a different character each time, but all of them have been collectively on the same side, which is basically the side of... well... modern Thedas. More or less. I guess new players who are unfamiliar with the story wouldn't really care (in fact I'd consider it an intriguing little experiment on perception based on previous experience or lack of it), but that still leaves the players who know what's going on to be willing to actively go against the side they were on in past games.
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Post by arvaarad on Jul 1, 2017 23:43:48 GMT
Anyway - one thing that I'd consider a big challenge to overcome in a scenario where we'd be put in shoes of secret agent to foreign power is... how would players stay motivated to keep being a secret agent? A ciphered letter is folded neatly at the bottom of the stack of papers, in the usual spot. Once you undo the cipher, it reads as follows:Agent, We were surprised to learn of the Seeker's recent success. According to our records, we had sent a saboteur on that very mission. We have had no reason to doubt their loyalty until now. It is our very great hope that such mistakes can be reduced in the future. Imagine if some absentminded agent were to slip our contact list to the enemy! Agents in deep cover, such as yourself, might find themselves unmasked. According to our reports, the debacle at the Winter Palace has Charter executing double agents on sight. Certainly something we would prefer to avoid, no? But let us think of more pleasant things. You will soon receive a bird with directions to the next drop site. You may feel however you like about our cause. But do be punctual. -X
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 2, 2017 14:06:31 GMT
That mention of Charter reminds me of the fact that in the latest comic series she is blackmailing people to do her dirty work for her and claims to be working on behalf of the Inquisition. So a similar thing could happen to the PC. Someone recruits them to work for their organisation (not necessarily by blackmail) but you start to have misgivings about who you are actually working for. Unlike when you were recruited to the Wardens when you had no option to back out later, this time round may be that possibility exists. You could outright betray them to their enemy organisation and thus obtain their protection against any backlash or simply walk away but then have to deal with the repercussions on your own (or with such friends as you have gathered to yourself).
I'd prefer being able to choose who you work for (as at the beginning of DA2) and then later decide to change your mind rather than being forced into loyalty to an institution that you wouldn't naturally choose. The one downside of Inquisition for me was that it was so closely linked to the Chantry, even if initially they did seem to object to us. Part of the reason I prefer to disband the organisation is that at the end the only alternative is to strengthen its association with the Chantry and essentially become its military arm, much as the Templars once were. Basically repeating history if the experience of Ameridan is anything to go by. The original Inquisition went from an independent organisation that treated everyone, noble or peasant, mundane or mage, equally in terms of judgement and retribution, to the lapdog of Drakon's Chantry, with preference given to upholding the established hierarchy and the way they thought things ought to be run.
I'm a rebel at heart when it comes to Thedas and I really want to overturn the established order. I'd love to be part of some slave liberation group even if I subsequently discover it is really a front for someone else. Then have the option if I have been a sufficiently charismatic and respected leader to persuade my followers to break away with me, so essentially we then become a rival faction working against the original organisation.
An interesting twist would be if they did something along the lines of ME2, with an organisation that was previously in conflict with the PC now becoming the organisation that is doing anything about the problem at hand. So you could have the Venatori, as led by Calpernia, leading the fight against Solas because everyone else is too caught up in the Tevinter/Qunari conflict (in the north) or enjoying the peaceful aftermath of Trespasser (in the south), just as Solas intended should be the case.
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Post by Rascoth on Jul 2, 2017 14:20:12 GMT
Being able to change our decision later is something I would like to see on few occasions. One of the things I really wanted in DAI was possibility of changing the outcome of mage/templar quests. You find out (through war table missions or other means) that mages are actually more than you expected? You can change your conscription choice and declare them allies. And the other way around. One scripted point in game to do that (or don't do that) would be enough for me. But seeing how downplayed whole conflict was, I should be happy with what we got, right?
As for secret agent idea... I really like it. Partly because of how loyalties could play out and partly because I really hope we won't play big leader (wouldn't mind that much if - with passing time - our protag gained some authority) in DA4.
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Post by arvaarad on Jul 2, 2017 15:28:40 GMT
So you could have the Venatori, as led by Calpernia, leading the fight against Solas because everyone else is too caught up in the Tevinter/Qunari conflict (in the north) or enjoying the peaceful aftermath of Trespasser (in the south), just as Solas intended should be the case. Oh that's right, Calpernia could technically be the leader of the Venatori now. You've got me all hyped up to see what they're up to now. And I agree, players should definitely have options about where their loyalties truly lie. But I also think if they're really obvious about their loyalties, they might face pressure from one side or the other to be a little more sneaky about it. Make it really obvious that you're sabotaging the new-Inquisition at every turn --> Charter gets suspicious. Make it really obvious that you've gone rogue and are now fully on the new-Inquisition's side --> your handlers get suspicious. It would be a matter of picking and choosing how much you can get away with. "I threw the last mission, I should definitely act normal for this one" type of thing. With maybe one or two specific story points where you can "officially" switch teams. They PC may well have freely chosen who to work for initially, but now that other spies' lives hang on their loyalty, the Ben-Hassrath/AoFs/titans/Venatori might be a little less forgiving about a change of heart. We know that Solas, at least, has no qualms about killing his agents for disloyalty. Likewise, the new-Inquisition is going to have a very low tolerance of split loyalties after what happened in Trespasser. A double agent could certainly change sides, but they'd need to be extra careful about how and when. This is good, because it reduces the potential branching off points of "oh, you can switch sides during any one of 100 sidequests, and everyone will treat you differently after that".
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N5
Uncle Cyan
Dang it.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: griffonclaw39
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Jul 4, 2017 0:53:43 GMT
Was about time we pinned a thread for this topic... I'm so freakin' late. Derp. YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!
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Uncle Cyan
Dang it.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: griffonclaw39
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Jul 4, 2017 0:54:29 GMT
Haha I thought the Twitter Discussion Thread or the Blanketfort was the official place for the speculation. Let met kick it off! Bad guys: Titans Evanuris Tevinter Civil War Tevinter/Qunari War Solas and his burning of the world The last two Archdemons Did I miss anything? You pretty much got all of it. Awesome.
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Dang it.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: griffonclaw39
Posts: 2,515 Likes: 2,604
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Jul 4, 2017 0:56:08 GMT
I'm not sure the Titans are that way inclined. I think they are more a sort of sentient earth being seeing as they are called the "Pillars of the Earth" and not driven by the same sort of motivations as the other races. It seems to me that it was all the magic being tossed around by the Evanuris that upset them (just as opening the Breach does) and that resulted in a lot of earth movement, which damaged all the Evanuris' lovely creations, whether this was intentional or simply a by-product of the earthquakes. Then Elgar'nan and Mythal in particular got shirty about it (Mythal is credited with creating the cities after all) and so they went to war with them. Basically my sympathies are with the Titans since it seems likely that the elves were originally spirits from the Fade (sky) and thus had no business encroaching on the Titan's patch (earth). The Titan only attacked us because we had once again intruded and attacked its followers but once it made contact with Valta, it seemed soothed.
Prayer to Elgar'nan: "Give us victory over the earth that shakes our cities...... Bring winged death to those who throw down our work........help us tame the land." To my mind the elves were definitely the usurpers and may be the land didn't want to be tamed (enslaved).
It would also be a nice twist if it turns out that not all the Evanuris were arseholes and one of them actually wants to help us stop Solas from destroying the world. My money is on June because of that codex entry in the Temple which says we know so little about him - so clearly not simply the god of crafting. There was also that other entry in Trespasser where Sylaise is giving a gift for services rendered to "clever June", so clearly someone worth cultivating.
Reckon the "choice" in the next game will be whether to side with Tevinter or the Qunari in their ongoing war. Well said.
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Cyan_Griffonclaw
N5
Uncle Cyan
Dang it.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: griffonclaw39
Posts: 2,515 Likes: 2,604
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Jul 4, 2017 0:58:42 GMT
We'll get to help Fenris in a slave rebellion against Tevinter. Okay, that's more of a wish than speculation
I really can't see how they can do without the Inquisitor in at least some parts. People who might be companions: Dorian as an advisor, Charter and Scout Harding as party members. Maybe Mae or Calpernia as well? Places I'd like to see: Tevinter, Seheron, the Hundred Pillars, the Silent Plains, Nevarra, Rivain.
No more deserts, please. I want that as well.
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N5
Uncle Cyan
Dang it.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: griffonclaw39
Posts: 2,515 Likes: 2,604
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Jul 4, 2017 1:00:45 GMT
I'm getting a vibe that 'Dylan' and DA4 will release more closely to each other than other instalments of late. Anyone else getting that feeling that both of those games are nicely along? (drooling excessively)
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Cyan_Griffonclaw
N5
Uncle Cyan
Dang it.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: griffonclaw39
Posts: 2,515 Likes: 2,604
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Jul 4, 2017 1:02:59 GMT
Just going to repost a theory I had from a few months back...When Corypheus first awakens, he says "The City.. It was supposed to be Golden!" I've always wondered if the "Golden" City was merely an illusion, a shiny lure the Old Gods used to trick to the Magisters into entering/breaching the Black City to... corrupt them? After which the Golden illusion was dropped. Definitely a larger plan at work. On a similar tangent, perhaps the Golden City was originally a (captured?) Titan, a city carved into it and doubling a living power source. The Blight was created there, corrupted the Titan and they had to imprison it. A blighted Titan empowering the Magisters kinda makes sense since we know one could empower dwarves in Descent. The Titan's music/Blight's music. Whispers to a Magister... Continuing on that previous line of thought (Black City - Blighted Titan), I just wanted to ramble out a theory on how the Old Gods might fit into this. - It's been hinted that the Old Gods were spirits originally, and we know there were even spirit teachers among the Ancient Elves. - The Old Gods were said to teach magic to humans... as well as Blood Magic. - We know from Mythal that an Evanuris could be slain and later possess/merge with any willing host. - The Archdemons and Corypheus could also do something very similar... but only with creatures tied to the Blight. - And it's important to note that spirits who are slain typically lose their identity/memories/power, even if they are reborn later. Thanks for that Solas & JoH. Could the Old Gods have originally been spirits/demons who became envious of the Evanuris' immortality/power (perhaps were slaves?)... and wanted to become Gods themselves? What if the spirit/demon predecessors of the Old Gods tied themselves to the Titan's power? What if they created the Blight (through blood magic & the Titan's power) and "infected" the Titan with the goal of using its power to corrupt, control and achieve a level of immortality they envied in the Evanuris? To become "Gods" themselves with ever-growing legions of followers? Now, back on Thedas the imprisoned Old Gods had the power similar to the Titan's Song, but were not tied to the Blight. Which makes me think things didn't quite go as planned. Maybe the Evanuris noticed the Blight taking hold of what would become the Black City and swiftly moved to imprison it. The Old Gods are now forced to flee, possessed or took on the form of dragons, and hid, hibernated, or were imprisoned as punishment. But while they had power from the Titan, they weren't tied to the Blight and therefore still vulnerable to being killed (and losing their identity). So they dangle the carrot of the "Golden City of the Gods" to the Tevinter Magisters. They breach the prison, become corrupted by the now fully Blighted Titan, and bring the first Darkspawn to Thedas. And that might explain why they tempted the Magisters to enter the Black City in the first place, their hatred of the Elves, and why the Darkspawn are drawn to the call of the Old Gods. The Old Gods want to be corrupted and tied to the Blight (and the power/control/immortality it offers), but perhaps it came at a cost they didn't expect. The big wrinkle in their plan though were the mortal races learning to use the Blight to their advantage: Grey Wardens & the original DS Magisters (who were corrupted/empowered by the source of the Blight). Well said.
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Post by themikefest on Jul 4, 2017 2:24:48 GMT
I speculate that this theme, or at least like it to be in the next game.
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midnight tea
Twitter Guru
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 4, 2017 2:55:26 GMT
I speculate that this theme, or at least like it to be in the next game.
I think they'd be out of their mind if they didn't use it Anyway - wasn't Corypheus' theme first heard in Legacy?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 4, 2017 12:45:48 GMT
That music is awesome. It makes my spine tingle every time I hear it. I hope they do use the same composer for the next game.
Now I may be a bit dense not having noticed this before but there is a figure outlined in that central eluvian. Has there been any speculation or confirmation over who it is meant to be?
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Post by tacsear on Jul 4, 2017 14:04:02 GMT
They can reuse every music from dai and I would be ok with it
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Post by themikefest on Jul 4, 2017 14:14:06 GMT
The player won't be able to kill Solas. He can only be banished
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Jul 4, 2017 15:47:41 GMT
The Order of Fiery Promise will come to prominence once more; we'll find out that Solas is encouraging/manipulating them.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 4, 2017 19:23:27 GMT
The Order of Fiery Promise will come to prominence once more; we'll find out that Solas is encouraging/manipulating them. Doomsday cults existed almost since the dawn of time, and Chantry's core beliefs only feed to the whole idea of world having to be changed/destroyed in order for Paradise/Maker to return (not to say anything about real-life inspirations *cough*) - so I don't really think they need an encouragement from Solas in order to exist. If anything, I think it'd probably be more productive to seek some sort of parallels between Promisers' belief that Seekers somehow stole their mandate that prevented them from ending the world and allowing it to be reborn as paradise. In fact it pretty much mirrors Inquisitor 'stealing' Anchor from Corypheus and this preventing him from ascending to godhood. Same parallel could be drawn between Inky and Solas, to an extent at least. bonus fact: Inquisitor is basically a Seeker of Truth him/herself. That's pretty much literally what their title means (latin inquirere < quaerere, "to seek"). They're like, the Prime Seekers or something, from whom the whole order has sprung.
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