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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2017 5:25:57 GMT
Okay, so Kieran is so exotic and unprecedented that he would be considered a mortal, rather than an OG offspring. It is entirely possible that he's so exotic and unprecedented that they've never needed to bother deciding what such a being counts as. Which would mean that the people who weren't happy with the thought of a bastard succeeding would get to answer your question.Well, yes, it's clear she wants power. She also gets to make clear that she has experience handling it. I don't think the game's trying to push the player either way. I think they provide enough of an argument to make any outcome of the Landsmeet reasonable. Though the most reasonable one is probably the one where Anora gets the power she wants, but gets joined at the hip to her own personal Jiminy Cricket. Yakes. Self-promotion and a grab for power, not to mention treaterous nature, for me means that under no circumstances should this person be allowed anywhere near any position of authority. Different upbringing, I guess. I value honour, intergrity, modesty and good heart.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 27, 2017 5:41:55 GMT
It is entirely possible that he's so exotic and unprecedented that they've never needed to bother deciding what such a being counts as. Which would mean that the people who weren't happy with the thought of a bastard succeeding would get to answer your question.Well, yes, it's clear she wants power. She also gets to make clear that she has experience handling it. I don't think the game's trying to push the player either way. I think they provide enough of an argument to make any outcome of the Landsmeet reasonable. Though the most reasonable one is probably the one where Anora gets the power she wants, but gets joined at the hip to her own personal Jiminy Cricket. Yakes. Self-promotion and a grab for power, not to mention treaterous nature, for me means that under no circumstances should this person be allowed anywhere near any position of authority. Different upbringing, I guess. I value honour, intergrity, modesty and good heart. Well, I'm not saying I don't value those. It's just that I also value giving people jobs they actually know how to do. But like I said, you don't really have to choose between the two. There is a compromise option.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2017 5:53:29 GMT
Yakes. Self-promotion and a grab for power, not to mention treaterous nature, for me means that under no circumstances should this person be allowed anywhere near any position of authority. Different upbringing, I guess. I value honour, intergrity, modesty and good heart. Well, I'm not saying I don't value those. It's just that I also value giving people jobs they actually know how to do. But like I said, you don't really have to choose between the two. There is a compromise option. Not really, because you have to twist Alistar's nature and force him into a marriage with a conniving woman who has no intention of sharing the burden, but every intention of destroying him. Anora states she knows what she is doing, but in the time of crisis she shows incompetency. Not a single action of hers in dealing with her father, Warden and Alistair is fair, explainable and consistent.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 27, 2017 5:58:44 GMT
Well, I'm not saying I don't value those. It's just that I also value giving people jobs they actually know how to do. But like I said, you don't really have to choose between the two. There is a compromise option. Not really, because you have to twist Alistar's nature and force him into a marriage with a conniving woman who has no intention of sharing the burden, but every intention of destroying him. No intention of sharing the burden? Every intention of destroying him? How do you figure?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2017 6:08:41 GMT
Not really, because you have to twist Alistar's nature and force him into a marriage with a conniving woman who has no intention of sharing the burden, but every intention of destroying him. No intention of sharing the burden? Every intention of destroying him? How do you figure? Because the second she is confirmed in power as a sole ruler, she moves to execute Alistair. Alistair, on the other hand, locks her up. That was when I lost all sympathy for her. Fine, you backed out of a solemn promise and betrayed me again, because Alistair killed your madman of a father. And you hated being offered Cailan's bastard brother to start with, 'cause you have hots for daddy-like men. Okay, we are both women here, I can feel for you. Fine, keep that crown -- What? No, sorry, that's where this ends. i started with being compassionate to her, and thinking that she just needs her father's influence removed, but she is worse.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 27, 2017 7:40:51 GMT
No intention of sharing the burden? Every intention of destroying him? How do you figure? Because the second she is confirmed in power as a sole ruler, she moves to execute Alistair. Alistair, on the other hand, locks her up. That was when I lost all sympathy for her. Fine, you backed out of a solemn promise and betrayed me again, because Alistair killed your madman of a father. And you hated being offered Cailan's bastard brother to start with, 'cause you have hots for daddy-like men. Okay, we are both women here, I can feel for you. Fine, keep that crown -- What? No, sorry, that's where this ends. i started with being compassionate to her, and thinking that she just needs her father's influence removed, but she is worse. Are you sure all of this happened in one playthrough? Because as I recall if you allow Alistair to execute Loghain, Anora simply forces him to forswear all claim to the throne. It's only if her father is still alive, and Alistair still wants him very dead, that she doesn't want Alistair in the same country Loghain is in. If you don't let her protect her father at all, she just lets things go. (Apart from her refusal to marry whoever actually executed her father, which I think you're being a bit harsh about.) As for the bit where she betrays you "again," are you talking about the thing at Howe's estate? The one where she tries to hand you to Ser Cauthrien? Because that only happens if you do the one thing that she told you five minutes before might get her killed. I don't know that there's anything she can do as a reaction to that that counts as betraying you.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2017 13:26:31 GMT
Because the second she is confirmed in power as a sole ruler, she moves to execute Alistair. Alistair, on the other hand, locks her up. That was when I lost all sympathy for her. Fine, you backed out of a solemn promise and betrayed me again, because Alistair killed your madman of a father. And you hated being offered Cailan's bastard brother to start with, 'cause you have hots for daddy-like men. Okay, we are both women here, I can feel for you. Fine, keep that crown -- What? No, sorry, that's where this ends. i started with being compassionate to her, and thinking that she just needs her father's influence removed, but she is worse. Are you sure all of this happened in one playthrough? Because as I recall if you allow Alistair to execute Loghain, Anora simply forces him to forswear all claim to the throne. It's only if her father is still alive, and Alistair still wants him very dead, that she doesn't want Alistair in the same country Loghain is in. If you don't let her protect her father at all, she just lets things go. (Apart from her refusal to marry whoever actually executed her father, which I think you're being a bit harsh about.) As for the bit where she betrays you "again," are you talking about the thing at Howe's estate? The one where she tries to hand you to Ser Cauthrien? Because that only happens if you do the one thing that she told you five minutes before might get her killed. I don't know that there's anything she can do as a reaction to that that counts as betraying you. I only did one PT of the Origins, so, yes, the way it went was I had unhardened Alistair. I have talked both into marriage. Anora was very derisive of Alistair, but deigned to accept under duress. I let Alistair to duel Loghain, as is his right as Calian's closest living relative, and Duncan being his father figure. Alistair won the honorable duel. Anora announced that the deal is off and there was a demand that I support one of them. I supported Anora, and she immediately wanted to execute Alistair. I reloaded, and fought Loghain, and tried to spare him. Alistair straightened his shoulders and said: You wanted me to be a King? Then I will do a King's justice!" and in a move that I thought would impress Anora (since she was complaining about how Marek boys were all unkingly) executed Loghain. At that point I let Alistair be King. He proceeded to state that he can no longer maintain our relationship even with Anora out of the picture, a pity that, as unlike Anora, I was duly impressed.
As for betraying me, she called me to help her, then when we are walking out, she tells Cautherien that I am abducting her, and that forced me to kill Cauthrien whom I liked way more than Anora. I don't really remember her asking for anything really.
I've played DA2 a couple of times since, A1x2 and made a few valiant attempts at DA3. But now I am replaying Origins, and despite wanting to commit US this time, and keep Alistair as a Warden & alive, I really hate the idea of Anora as being the only possibility in this case.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 27, 2017 19:54:28 GMT
Are you sure all of this happened in one playthrough? Because as I recall if you allow Alistair to execute Loghain, Anora simply forces him to forswear all claim to the throne. It's only if her father is still alive, and Alistair still wants him very dead, that she doesn't want Alistair in the same country Loghain is in. If you don't let her protect her father at all, she just lets things go. (Apart from her refusal to marry whoever actually executed her father, which I think you're being a bit harsh about.) As for the bit where she betrays you "again," are you talking about the thing at Howe's estate? The one where she tries to hand you to Ser Cauthrien? Because that only happens if you do the one thing that she told you five minutes before might get her killed. I don't know that there's anything she can do as a reaction to that that counts as betraying you. I only did one PT of the Origins, so, yes, the way it went was I had unhardened Alistair. I have talked both into marriage. Anora was very derisive of Alistair, but deigned to accept under duress. I let Alistair to duel Loghain, as is his right as Calian's closest living relative, and Duncan being his father figure. Alistair won the honorable duel. Anora announced that the deal is off and there was a demand that I support one of them. I supported Anora, and she immediately wanted to execute Alistair. I reloaded, and fought Loghain, and tried to spare him. Alistair straightened his shoulders and said: You wanted me to be a King? Then I will do a King's justice!" and in a move that I thought would impress Anora (since she was complaining about how Marek boys were all unkingly) executed Loghain. At that point I let Alistair be King. He proceeded to state that he can no longer maintain our relationship even with Anora out of the picture, a pity that, as unlike Anora, I was duly impressed. Well, I don't recall Anora attempting to execute Alistair during the Anora-rules-alone run I did where Loghain died, or during the King Cousland run where Loghain died. And the wiki and stopping to think ahead to the end-game choice both give the impression that he can't die if Loghain does. I also don't really know why you expect Anora to be impressed that Alistair executed her father.[/p] [/quote]Well, she doesn't ask anything per se. What she does is explicitly say "If Howe's people find me, I'll be killed, and my people will insist on escorting me back to the palace, where my father may also have me killed." And then you proceeded to tell one of her father's people where she is, right to her face. She's better than you give her credit for.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2017 20:24:24 GMT
I only did one PT of the Origins, so, yes, the way it went was I had unhardened Alistair. I have talked both into marriage. Anora was very derisive of Alistair, but deigned to accept under duress. I let Alistair to duel Loghain, as is his right as Calian's closest living relative, and Duncan being his father figure. Alistair won the honorable duel. Anora announced that the deal is off and there was a demand that I support one of them. I supported Anora, and she immediately wanted to execute Alistair. I reloaded, and fought Loghain, and tried to spare him. Alistair straightened his shoulders and said: You wanted me to be a King? Then I will do a King's justice!" and in a move that I thought would impress Anora (since she was complaining about how Marek boys were all unkingly) executed Loghain. At that point I let Alistair be King. He proceeded to state that he can no longer maintain our relationship even with Anora out of the picture, a pity that, as unlike Anora, I was duly impressed. Well, I don't recall Anora attempting to execute Alistair during the Anora-rules-alone run I did where Loghain died, or during the King Cousland run where Loghain died. And the wiki and stopping to think ahead to the end-game choice both give the impression that he can't die if Loghain does. I also don't really know why you expect Anora to be impressed that Alistair executed her father. [/p] [/quote]Well, she doesn't ask anything per se. What she does is explicitly say "If Howe's people find me, I'll be killed, and my people will insist on escorting me back to the palace, where my father may also have me killed." And then you proceeded to tell one of her father's people where she is, right to her face. She's better than you give her credit for. [/quote][/p]
Well, her complaint about Alistair was that he is basically a country bumpkin iirc, so seeing he acts all assertive and sovereign-like, and providing her father was impeding her more than anyone else, I'd thought she'd rejoice to be rid of him in such a clean, honorable way where no-one can fault her. But she steps back from a savvy political climber for whom calculations and stronger alliances matter she pretends to be, and does not accept a necessity to execute an usurper to the throne and the traitor to the crown. It's really a childish move, way more juvenile than what she places at Alistair's or Calain's door.
I can't remember being given any alternative or avoid the cutscene when I try to help Anora escape. So I am at across how it s my fault, and why she does not try to use her influence to persuade Cautheriene. She choses to betray my Warden instead of throwing her lot with her, so she cannot expect the warm shake from me.
I only credit what I see, and I saw nothing that earned my approval from Anora, or the smallest gesture of goodwill. She made me actually beg for Alistair's life (i.e. replace exile with execution). That positioned me as her opponent. She may be protecting her father who betrayed her husband, her country and herself and conspired against her personally. I am protecting a friend and a former lover who showed me nothing but loyalty. I do not throw my men's lives around like hairpins like she does with Cautheriene. And Alistair's life and wellbeing are important to me, so if I am to hand him over to another woman, I need to be exceedingly sure that she is not going make him unhappy.
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Post by sugarless on Jun 27, 2017 22:46:17 GMT
Without political turmoil there is no DA
Origins: Loghain/Anora/Alistair/the Dwarves
DA2: Viscount/ Grand Cleric Elthina / Meredith / Orsino
DAI: Inquisition/Chantry/Templars/Emperess Celene etc.
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Post by Sah291 on Jun 29, 2017 0:52:26 GMT
I hope so...I mean, I kind of wished DAI had focused more on it...though we got a lot of lore to make up for it. But after all that set up with the Elves and Qunari, I feel like it's time to revisit the political turmoil.
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Post by Jarovbees on Jun 29, 2017 1:19:32 GMT
It would be weird if the next Dragon Age didn't have any political turmoil, since that's always been a major part of the games. Between the Qunari wanting to invade again, the Grey Wardens at each others' throats and Dorian attempting to reform Tevinter, there's a lot of fodder for political plots right there.
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Post by arvaarad on Jun 29, 2017 2:12:21 GMT
It would be weird if the next Dragon Age didn't have any political turmoil, since that's always been a major part of the games. Between the Qunari wanting to invade again, the Grey Wardens at each others' throats and Dorian attempting to reform Tevinter, there's a lot of fodder for political plots right there. An invasion is one thing, but I'd be really interested to see the Qunari's internal bureaucracy. Ironically, the rest of Thedas seems to buy their propaganda that they walk in perfect lockstep (and therefore they assume they're lying when they speak of agents going rogue), but there seems to be compelling evidence that they're not anywhere near as monlithic as they or the rest of Thedas believe. I want to see that dynamic. That tension of arguing-without-technically-arguing. That balance of pretending that they all agree, while internally every single Qunari has their own interpretation of how to follow the Qun. How do people play politics when they must deny, both to themselves and others, that they are playing politics? It's like another level beyond Orlais - at least in Orlais, everyone acknowledges that political schemes are happening.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 29, 2017 9:49:39 GMT
DA4 has great potential for political turmoil in the same vein as previous games but racked up a notch.
1: Tevinter vs Qun - Direct all out war between them is explicitly stated to happen following the events of Trespasser. It has been on-going on Seheron for years but now it is on the mainland as well. Essentially having failed to annex the south with minimal bloodshed among the workers, which would have been an excellent way to isolate Tevinter, they switch back to dealing with the Mage Empire first before moving on to the rest. Magic has always been an important factor in opposing the Qun. If they can conquer Tevinter that will deal a big blow to the capacity to use magic against them. Forget all the nonsense about sewing mages mouths shut, if you are a foreign raised mage there is only one outcome with the Qun, they fill you with Qamek and destroy your mind permanently. So the stakes for the mages of Tevinter are pretty high, particularly considering they are outnumbered by non-mages and have a large slave population that was ripe for infiltration by the Qun. There is also the fact that if you sided with the Qun in DAI, they denounce the Viddasala and actually try to maintain her action was unsanctioned. Then they suggest keeping the alliance going either with the Inquisition or the Divine direct, essentially trying to keep the south from officially aiding Tevinter against them and even possibly working with the Qun to topple the Imperium. Lots of room for political intrigue there and even potentially the opportunity to go to Par Vollen to discuss it with their leaders.
2: Seheron - A place with 3 possible factions - the Qun, Tevinter and Fog Warriors all vying for control of what is an important strategic location in the north. Ousting the Qun from control would certainly weaken their assault on the mainland, whilst wiping out their opponents would bolster their efforts against Tevinter. I'm hoping that the plot will centre around aiding the Fog Warriors to get rid of all foreign occupiers but I will certainly be surprised if we don't end up there in some way or other, even if only as war table missions.
3: A possible slave rebellion either led by Qun agents or Solas agents, or may be you have to find out who lies behind it. That could easily bring Tevinter to its knees and open the way to the Qun.
4: Political intrigue in the Magisterium. Dorian and Maevaris have their faction, the Lucerni, fighting corruption. There may still be vestiges of the Venatori floating around, particularly if Calpernia is not dead (her death is ambiguous even if you take that option). The Black Divine is a total political animal and blood mage, as are all his cronies, so bound to come into conflict with the Lucerni eventually. Archon Radonis wants to hang on to his position by any means possible, including using foreign private assassins. Someone arranged for the assassination of Dorian's father for reasons that are not altogether clear - expect investigating the murder to be a sub-plot.
5: The Grey Warden Leadership and the Anderfels. This is near enough to Tevinter that it could become caught up in the political turmoil there plus the Grey Wardens allegedly know the location of the two remaining Old Gods, which could become important in the future.
6: Tevinter vs Nevarra - There was unrest between the two during DAI that we resolved with war table missions. With Tevinter put under pressure by the Qun, Nevarra may decided to capitalise on the situation.
7: The Nevarran Succession - Linked in some ways to the above. King Markus is said to be old, ailing and possibly increasingly senile. Many believe the Mortalitasi are actually ruling the country through him. The Venatori certainly managed to infiltrate for a time. When he dies the country is likely to be thrown into civil war as there is no obvious successor to the throne but many who think they should be.
Is that not enough political turmoil to be going on with without bothering about what is happening back in the south?
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Post by Sah291 on Jun 29, 2017 15:52:45 GMT
DA4 has great potential for political turmoil in the same vein as previous games but racked up a notch. 3: A possible slave rebellion either led by Qun agents or Solas agents, or may be you have to find out who lies behind it. That could easily bring Tevinter to its knees and open the way to the Qun. 4: Political intrigue in the Magisterium. Dorian and Maevaris have their faction, the Lucerni, fighting corruption. There may still be vestiges of the Venatori floating around, particularly if Calpernia is not dead (her death is ambiguous even if you take that option). The Black Divine is a total political animal and blood mage, as are all his cronies, so bound to come into conflict with the Lucerni eventually. Archon Radonis wants to hang on to his position by any means possible, including using foreign private assassins. Someone arranged for the assassination of Dorian's father for reasons that are not altogether clear - expect investigating the murder to be a sub-plot. I could easily see these two developing, and it becoming a possible choice we have to make...whether to help quash the slave rebellions in order to bolster Tevinter from the Qunari threat, or to side with them, while risking possible defeat or invasion. That seemed to be kind of where DA2 was headed with the Qunari plotline, and it could be picked back up. Maybe the Lucerni become a sort of compromise option, but maybe come into conflict with the slaves they claim to want to help, who might be tempted by Solas' agents or agitated by the Qunari not to trust them.
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Post by tacsear on Jun 29, 2017 18:23:52 GMT
2: Seheron - A place with 3 possible factions - the Qun, Tevinter and Fog Warriors all vying for control of what is an important strategic location in the north. Ousting the Qun from control would certainly weaken their assault on the mainland, whilst wiping out their opponents would bolster their efforts against Tevinter. I'm hoping that the plot will centre around aiding the Fog Warriors to get rid of all foreign occupiers but I will certainly be surprised if we don't end up there in some way or other, even if only as war table missions. 3: A possible slave rebellion either led by Qun agents or Solas agents, or may be you have to find out who lies behind it. That could easily bring Tevinter to its knees and open the way to the Qun. That was an excellent summary, but I have issues with these two. 2: It would be better if we would be the ones to choose who to aid in Seheron. It would certainly add a huge ammount of replayibility. 3: I don't think the Qun would care to help slaves rebel. It would be best if slaves themselves decide to rebel, rather than some outside force
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 29, 2017 21:16:45 GMT
It is not about concern for the slaves but de-stabilising Tevinter. Look at the lessons of history. Back in the time of Andraste is was a rebellion behind enemy lines led by Shartan that tipped the balance in her favour. The barbarians would have lost the Battle of Valarian Fields but for the intervention of Shartan and his elven slaves. Then even after her death the unrest continued until Hessarian was forced to offer the majority of elven slaves their freedom in order to prevent a complete breakdown of the Imperium.
We know that many agents of the Qun are elves. They infiltrated in Kirkwall to great success. They nearly succeeded in bringing about a coup in the south through infiltrating the Inquisition. We are told that Qunari agents are willing to do anything, including selling themselves into slavery, in order to give them the cover story they need to infiltrate Tevinter. What better way to undermine the Imperium than cause a slave rebellion across Tevinter just as they launch their attack? I would be rather disappointed in the Qun if they didn't try and use this means to gain their success. They haven't used it before because the idea of using subterfuge to gain success was only a recent innovation, first suggested by a young Sten-officer to his superiors after the last failed attempt in attacking the mainland in 9:12. That Sten is now the Arishok.
I think Solas or his agents would be less likely to be responsible because he wouldn't want to aid the Qun and he would know that causing a slave rebellion would. However, if Tevinter looked like getting the upper hand in the war then it is possible he might do so to keep hostilities going if that aids as a cover to his own activities.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Jun 29, 2017 23:18:21 GMT
There is that whole issue revolving around a certain egg-head elf that's causing trouble. If anything, that could sorta be the cherry on top of the sundae (sundae being the politics), similar to how the blight was the main focus in DAO.
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