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Post by colfoley on Aug 7, 2017 23:33:04 GMT
Now a while ago someone on these boards started 'Constructive Criticism of Mass Effect Andromeda'...and the first line was something to the effect of 'we all know MEA was the worse game BioWare has ever done.' Now that is not exactly constructive criticsm, constructive criticism actually starts by one praising the thing you are criticising in the first place. Praise, then you find an aspect to be critical of, then you adress a possible fix. That is what constructive criticism is. And its something few people want to do. But, in the wake of that thread it doubled my own interest in creating a thread such as this. My own bit of Constructive Criticism. Because as much as I do love the game (see what I'm doing?) its not perfect, and the fixes should be relatively easy.
Now this thread is done specifically with Mass Effect Andromeda 2 in mind, but this advice could just as easily apply to Anthem or Dragon Age 4.
So here we go, five things in which I think they could approve upon in the future.
1. Trickle Down Quest Design
As I've said recently I have been playing Witcher 3. And as I also noticed I had trouble getting into it, primarily because the amazing side quests I remembered from my first PT didn't seem to exisist...quite the opposite in fact. That was until I got to Novigrad, and I realized something...
Now for the most part I, and I think most people and game developers, have assumed that quest design generally is bottom up and its design. The side quests support and expand upon the main quests, not vice versa. But, in Witcher 3, first noticed in 'Return to Crookback Bog' I noticed that Witcher 3 tended to do the opposite. Main quests, the decisions made, and the people met during them, trickled down to the side quests and effected them. Because the game focused on finding Ciri anything out of that purview went right into the Side Quests. And quest after quest bore this out, you met a character on the main quest, made a decision, and it came up later in a side quest.
Now Andromeda did do this at times, the decision on whether or not to make Prodromos Military or Civilian did come back later on in the game during a side objective.
But for the most part I have to wonder if BioWare didn't look at this kind of thing and expand upon it if it might not actually make the next game feel a lot tighter. However, I am still pretty amateur at this so I do not know if BioWare did something like this it wouldn't effect something else down the road.
2. Improved Dialogue Wheel
Now, for me MEAs dialogue and RP was the best in the Mass Effect series to date, by far and away. Ryder was a great character and for the most part BioWare did a great job taking into account a great deal of player choice. But on the other hand it still is weaker then any of the three Dragon Age games. Especially DA 2 and DA I.
The most common complaint on this affair is that Ryder could not be 'aggressive' enough. Angry enough. Bad ass enough. Etc. The problem is all tied up in the emotional option. Casual, Professional, and Logical are all well defined in game and in real life. And for the most part they work. But emotional, well there are a lot of emotions for one dialogue option on a wheel to convey. Pride. Anger. Joy. Sadness. Etc.
I can see two possible solutions. Either divide up the emotional wheel, so for me the four options would be 'diplomatic' 'aggressive' 'casual' 'profesional.' Or to put a sub symbol in the emotional to give it a little more range. Like a heart-exclamation point for aggression...etc.
3. Bold Story Design
Mass Effect Andromeda was BioWare's best story to date. Its peaks and valleys, its building of tension till it exploded in its final mission, all the lessons learned which expanded on the lore...and indeed even the side quessts...all were pretty well written. It came together in a nice climax and had a nice ending which was not overshadowed by any of its previous content.
However, it came off as a little too basic. Granted it was wonderfully executed so sometimes its better to have a well written basic story then a complex one which fails. But, at times, it honestly feels like an ad lib of a story. Just inserting the neccessary but moments here and there to increase narrative tension, and then pay it off later. Granted, it did succeed at this better then the trilogy...so...
What I want to see them is be bolder, more complex, with higher stakes and an overall larger canvas. Maybe more aliens, more unique species, and something that takes us out of Heleus and across the Andromeda Galaxy. Now that the basic storylines have been established, and the AI is in the Andromeda Galaxy, now is the time to expand that story outwards. Take a risk. Take a chance.
4. Be mean to your characters/ Create a compelling antagonist
Thisis the advice I feel is the most on dubious footing. Afterall the cast of Andromeda went through a lot in its time through the narrative. Hell Ryder died...twice. And Jaal had his entire world view shattered...twice.
But I get the feeling this is one of the complaints about the game. Some nebulous idea out there. And no this does not mean one should kill off characters willy nilly, but make them go through pain, make them uncomfortable. Part and parcel with this is the Archon, who was a weaker Antagonist as I have outlined. Create someone who is more compelling. Someone who actively challenges Ryder and crew not just for the end mission (one of the reasons I still like the Archon) but for the entire game. Someone we get to know and can make the crew hurt.
5. Stick to your guns
Not exactly advice on what Andromeda did wrong, but just general advice. BioWare has something unique going. Something few game companies can do successfully. And Andromeda did continue this tradition. Whatever BioWare does they should not lose who and what they are. Learn from the compeition, don't try and copy them, expand on what you are good at, don't throw it out with the bathwater, Andromeda could be close to being something truly special...you should let it.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 7, 2017 23:54:53 GMT
... Mass Effect Andromeda was BioWare's best story to date. Are you going to do a rebuttal or is that it?
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Post by Serza on Aug 7, 2017 23:57:58 GMT
Five bucks say that's it and he dropped the RP because suddenly Witcher is the only good RPG to ever exist.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2017 0:01:26 GMT
Are you going to do a rebuttal or is that it? It was constructive criticism of your post.
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Post by Serza on Aug 8, 2017 0:07:09 GMT
Yeah. It's just that the builders had a massive delay, so the construction itself has been moved back a few weeks.
Silly you, you did not understand!
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Post by linksocarina on Aug 8, 2017 0:09:04 GMT
It has some good writing in it.
But it also has a lot of derivativeness to it.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 8, 2017 0:11:35 GMT
Are you going to do a rebuttal or is that it? I think it's self explanatory. There's not much to disprove here either, you stated your opinion, I stated mine.
I think that while ME:A wasn't as terrible as some people may claim, calling it "BioWare's best story to date" is outright laughable.
You didn't 'state' anything you offered a head face emoji thing, and as this is a thread about constructive criticism I would welcome your thoughts on what Andromeda did wrong and how they can improve it on the future. I should also note, if it wasn't clear, my 'five things' are by no means the end all be all it is just what I noticed, if you have things you want to add...like the story...I welcome them. Because there are far too many extremist 'solutions' out there and far too many threads that approach things in a non constructive light. I hope this is not one of them.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 8, 2017 0:12:22 GMT
It has some good writing in it. But it also has a lot of derivativeness to it. I agree on the face of it, which is why I want them to do better and be bolder later on.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Aug 8, 2017 0:21:14 GMT
3) I think ME3 had an amazing story really. Most of the conclusions were satisfying its just well you know...and with MEA it was just somewhat predictable at parts. Not saying that's a bad thing, it made sense.
4) I disagree that they were to nice too Ryder. I mean their father died. Supposedly, we still haven't found the body. They wouldn't have been made Pathfinder otherwise, implanted an AI that can easily kill Ryder whenever it wants to, twin stuck in a coma for half the game, the twin was tortured essentiallly to get info out of them. They couldn't do a Kaidan/Ashley 2.0. Sure, Ryder didn't have to make a choice between more death or less death- with the whole save or sacrifice the counsel bit. I agree with you that they need more Solas antagnsts then Cory or Archon. All those two are missing is the cliched laughing. Though the Kett as a whole have promise.
5) I have no problem with them experiment with different things moving forward. "Sticking to your guns" can get boring- at least for me.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 8, 2017 0:27:34 GMT
3) I think ME3 had an amazing story really. Most of the conclusions were satisfying its just well you know...and with MEA it was just somewhat predictable at parts. Not saying that's a bad thing, it made sense. 4) I disagree that they were to nice too Ryder. I mean their father died. Supposedly, we still haven't found the body. They wouldn't have been made Pathfinder otherwise, implanted an AI that can easily kill Ryder whenever it wants to, twin stuck in a coma for half the game, the twin was tortured essentiallly to get info out of them. They couldn't do a Kaidan/Ashley 2.0. Sure, Ryder didn't have to make a choice between more death or less death- with the whole save or sacrifice the counsel bit. I agree with you that they need more Solas antagnsts then Cory or Archon. All those two are missing is the cliched laughing. Though the Kett as a whole have promise. 5) I have no problem with them experiment with different things moving forward. "Sticking to your guns" can get boring- at least for me. First of all thank you for your post, this Laughing Man is more what I am interested in. About four like I said I felt that was on the most tenous footing. After all I felt there were plenty mean to the characters, but it is one of the criticisms around here...and a perfectly valid one too. And this thread also was my attempt to guage the critical reception and ways BioWare to continue to grow in those directions to not only please me, but be successful. Because even I feel a certain meaness to the characters is neccessary for meaningful growth. Look at Babylon 5 as a good example of how to do it without killing off huge swaths of them too. I want them to experiment and grow too. But they should always have that core intact. And to me BioWare's core is essentially RPG, Dialogue Wheel, and meaningful companion characters you can share a journey with. If BioWare looses those things, then they risk not being BioWare. And it contrasts it with Witcher 3 who is defined basically by its weighty decisions, grim darkness, and Geralt being a lone wanderer.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2017 0:46:55 GMT
It has some good writing in it. But it also has a lot of derivativeness to it. Isn't that true of most things? I guess I tend to believe that there are only so many different stories to be told, and they've all been done before. If yet another derivative can draw me in with characters I care about, and maybe toss in something unique or unexpected, I'm in.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 8, 2017 0:48:49 GMT
It has some good writing in it. But it also has a lot of derivativeness to it. Isn't that true of most things? I guess I tend to believe that there are only so many different stories to be told, and they've all been done before. If yet another derivative can draw me in with characters I care about, and maybe toss in something unique or unexpected, I'm in. Essentially my opinion. The amount of plots/ stories are limited...though then again even still there are people who are putting fun and unique twists on ancient tropes (Game of Thrones)...but the amount of characters you can create are essentially limitless as the number of people on Earth.
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Post by majesticjazz on Aug 8, 2017 0:51:31 GMT
Are you going to do a rebuttal or is that it? I think it's self explanatory. There's not much to disprove here either, you stated your opinion, I stated mine.
I think that while ME:A wasn't as terrible as some people may claim, calling it "BioWare's best story to date" is outright laughable.
To each theie own I guess. I personally see DA2 as Bioware's best story.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 8, 2017 0:53:22 GMT
I think it's self explanatory. There's not much to disprove here either, you stated your opinion, I stated mine.
I think that while ME:A wasn't as terrible as some people may claim, calling it "BioWare's best story to date" is outright laughable.
To each theie own I guess. I personally see DA2 as Bioware's best story. Dragon Age 2s second act was probably BioWare's best story ever...but sadly a single Act is not a game and Dragon Age 2 had a lot of third act problems.
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Post by kino on Aug 8, 2017 1:02:02 GMT
I'd be good if the antagonist had more dimensions to them. I don't want them to be the tortured/deceived type like Saren or TIM, but the Archon has as much depth as a James Bond villain...minus the furry cat and a laser beam. I thought they were going to do more with exaltation as a plot device when they showed some of the tortured notes from exalted Kett in the Kett Base, but that kind of petered out.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2017 1:10:42 GMT
I think it's self explanatory. There's not much to disprove here either, you stated your opinion, I stated mine.
I think that while ME:A wasn't as terrible as some people may claim, calling it "BioWare's best story to date" is outright laughable.
To each theie own I guess. I personally see DA2 as Bioware's best story. I view DA2 as a disjointed mess. It's a collection of short stories and vignettes that would be completely unrelated without Hawke's direct involvement. Hawke just sort of goes from disaster to disaster without any particular goal or direction other than to react to whatever is happening in the vicinity.
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Post by natetrace on Aug 8, 2017 1:24:44 GMT
I really do love ME:A, but you'd be hard pressed to find a game I hate. I even like Shaq Fu! Anyway, here are a few things: - Loyalty missions were great. ME2 may be my favorite game but the lack of daddy issues in Andromeda helped. Even Ryder seems dismissive of his/her father at times. My only complaint about the loyalty missions is all the tasks required to get to them. Don't make me work for the strongest content!
- I liked the romances, although I'm not sure I like how easy it has become in Bioware games to have a heart symbol be your roadmap to sex without fear of failure. Also, Let us not forget some of the funny but cringe inducing "flirting" between Shepard and Liara in ME1. Get swept up by the storm! Yeah...
- There are technical issues, but again have we forgotten Shepard's doofy face when first seeing a romanced Liara again on Mars? On a few instances aboard the Normandy, when I first speak to Liara, her arm breaks at the elbow and her hand clips into Shepard's face.
How have all the flaws of the original trilogy been overshadowed by Andromeda? Is it really so bad?
No.
My copy of ME1 on the ps3 is so bugged it's near unplayable. I always play it on the 360 so it's not an issue, but the Mako falling through the crust five times on Elodus? Not fun.
Is ME:A so flawed other games are marvelous in comparison? No. I liked Fallout 4, and much like a flaw in ME:A's loyalty missions, I had to be on hold for certain things. I picked the Railroad. I think I sat on a bench for 24 hours on two separate occasions while a synth made a decision.
Mass Effect: Andromeda has it's flaws, but I still love it just as I do the original trilogy.
Also: I liked the Archon! I have his funko. It's cool.
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Post by Pearl on Aug 8, 2017 1:41:28 GMT
1. Trickle Down Quest DesignAs I've said recently I have been playing Witcher 3. And as I also noticed I had trouble getting into it, primarily because the amazing side quests I remembered from my first PT didn't seem to exisist...quite the opposite in fact. That was until I got to Novigrad, and I realized something... Now for the most part I, and I think most people and game developers, have assumed that quest design generally is bottom up and its design. The side quests support and expand upon the main quests, not vice versa. But, in Witcher 3, first noticed in 'Return to Crookback Bog' I noticed that Witcher 3 tended to do the opposite. Main quests, the decisions made, and the people met during them, trickled down to the side quests and effected them. Because the game focused on finding Ciri anything out of that purview went right into the Side Quests. And quest after quest bore this out, you met a character on the main quest, made a decision, and it came up later in a side quest. Now Andromeda did do this at times, the decision on whether or not to make Prodromos Military or Civilian did come back later on in the game during a side objective. But for the most part I have to wonder if BioWare didn't look at this kind of thing and expand upon it if it might not actually make the next game feel a lot tighter. However, I am still pretty amateur at this so I do not know if BioWare did something like this it wouldn't effect something else down the road. I don't really have too much to say about this, apart from how I disliked that the vast majority of side quests (and yes, "additional tasks" do count as side quests) felt like hollow shells that served no purpose other than to inflate playtime for completionists. I vehemently disagree with the premise that Andromeda's dialogue offered the best roleplay experience in a Bioware game. Sure, you had quite a bit of control over how Ryder said things, but in order to afford players that luxury, they had to diminish the player's ability to control what Ryder said. This was something that actually surprised me a good bit when I did a second playthrough to collect some achievements I missed the first time around, I tried to pick dialogue options that appeared to be the polar opposite to what I had picked on my first time through (although I will admit that there are far too many dialogue scenes for me to remember what I had picked for every single one of them), and I had to do a double-take a few times as Ryder seemed to deliver the same line, with a slightly different intonation. So I started paying closer attention, and the more I looked, the more it started to feel like the new dialogue system was nothing more than four different ways to say "yes" or "no", depending on the context. And that's without getting into the superfluous options that had no difference whatsoever when selected, but to be fair, this has been present in just about every Bioware game I've played, so I can grin and bear having it happen yet again. I don't really care about being allowed to be a nitroshitter to everyone I meet, but there are a number of scenes where Ryder is hamstrung into going along with what's happening, despite my wishes to the contrary. Say what you want about the limitations of the Paragon/Renegade schism, but at least it gave you the option of changing the course of conversations and interactions if you had enough good boy/bad boy points. Again, I completely disagree with the notions that Andromeda's story was well-written, or even well-executed. A lot of the main beats in the story were repeats of beats seen in the original trilogy, which lead to the main plot being predictable and boring if you've played any of the first games (if you're familiar with complaints about The Force Awakens in this regard, you pretty much know what my gripes are). It feels like such a waste of potential to travel to an entirely new galaxy only to tell a distilled version of the story you've already told. On top of that, it also managed to feel listless and directionless, although that could be side effect of the fact that the main story doesn't have any sense of immediacy to it until right at the very end. I do agree that they played it too safe. They dropped us into the middle of this conflict between the Kett and the Angara without really giving us a reason to care about what happens apart from "the bad guys are shooting at you too, oh also your dad's dead lol", so they're left trying to justify your involvement after the fact. Compare that to the events of even Mass Effect 1, where you're given a reason to care about the state of the galaxy immediately upon starting (in the process of trying to prove yourself, human colonies start getting attacked). Again, I don't really care about being allowed to be a turbocunt to my squad mates, but I feel like lumping "create a compelling antagonist" in with "be mean to people" is very disingenuous. The lack of a compelling antagonist in Andromeda is a serious issue, not being allowed to be a dick is a minor annoyance. The Archon was a disappointingly weak villain with questionable motivations. He wasn't really interested in Ryder (which is something I can respect) until Ryder became too big a threat to ignore, but even then, it felt like Archy was just as disinterested in the events as I was by that point. He never presented a serious challenge to Ryder, he never did anything that compelled the player to want to stop him, and he never really had a big impact on the narrative. You could take any nameless, faceless Kett soldier, put him in the Archon's shoes, and very little would change. Hell, the Overseer or whatever that stupid thing on Voeld was called made for a more compelling antagonist than the Archon, and it only had five minutes of screentime tops. If these are the guns that Bioware insists on sticking to, it's safe to say that I have no interest in supporting them any longer.
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Post by LogicGunn on Aug 8, 2017 2:00:19 GMT
I have a lot to say about this but 3am isn't the best to form cohesive though, so till tomorrow.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 8, 2017 2:05:19 GMT
To each theie own I guess. I personally see DA2 as Bioware's best story. I view DA2 as a disjointed mess. It's a collection of short stories and vignettes that would be completely unrelated without Hawke's direct involvement. Hawke just sort of goes from disaster to disaster without any particular goal or direction other than to react to whatever is happening in the vicinity. This probably had a lot to do with, from what I've heard anyways, that BioWare had every intention of not continuing past Dragon Age origins. They had no intention of turning it into a franchise, but then because of its popularity, and likely because EA, we got more DA games. And thus DA 2 had to do all the set up work for further stories and conflicts that they didn't in DA O. Coupled with it being rushed like hell and what you got was a game that set up two major future conflicts and thus much of the plot progression of the rest of the story going forward. It foreshadowed a lot of the problem with the Mages (DA I, and beyond with Solas), and it foreshadowed the conflicts with the Qunari (Tresspasser, which itself was set up, and then probbaly DA 4).
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Post by colfoley on Aug 8, 2017 2:07:55 GMT
1. Trickle Down Quest DesignAs I've said recently I have been playing Witcher 3. And as I also noticed I had trouble getting into it, primarily because the amazing side quests I remembered from my first PT didn't seem to exisist...quite the opposite in fact. That was until I got to Novigrad, and I realized something... Now for the most part I, and I think most people and game developers, have assumed that quest design generally is bottom up and its design. The side quests support and expand upon the main quests, not vice versa. But, in Witcher 3, first noticed in 'Return to Crookback Bog' I noticed that Witcher 3 tended to do the opposite. Main quests, the decisions made, and the people met during them, trickled down to the side quests and effected them. Because the game focused on finding Ciri anything out of that purview went right into the Side Quests. And quest after quest bore this out, you met a character on the main quest, made a decision, and it came up later in a side quest. Now Andromeda did do this at times, the decision on whether or not to make Prodromos Military or Civilian did come back later on in the game during a side objective. But for the most part I have to wonder if BioWare didn't look at this kind of thing and expand upon it if it might not actually make the next game feel a lot tighter. However, I am still pretty amateur at this so I do not know if BioWare did something like this it wouldn't effect something else down the road. I don't really have too much to say about this, apart from how I disliked that the vast majority of side quests (and yes, "additional tasks" do count as side quests) felt like hollow shells that served no purpose other than to inflate playtime for completionists. I vehemently disagree with the premise that Andromeda's dialogue offered the best roleplay experience in a Bioware game. Sure, you had quite a bit of control over how Ryder said things, but in order to afford players that luxury, they had to diminish the player's ability to control what Ryder said. This was something that actually surprised me a good bit when I did a second playthrough to collect some achievements I missed the first time around, I tried to pick dialogue options that appeared to be the polar opposite to what I had picked on my first time through (although I will admit that there are far too many dialogue scenes for me to remember what I had picked for every single one of them), and I had to do a double-take a few times as Ryder seemed to deliver the same line, with a slightly different intonation. So I started paying closer attention, and the more I looked, the more it started to feel like the new dialogue system was nothing more than four different ways to say "yes" or "no", depending on the context. And that's without getting into the superfluous options that had no difference whatsoever when selected, but to be fair, this has been present in just about every Bioware game I've played, so I can grin and bear having it happen yet again. I don't really care about being allowed to be a nitroshitter to everyone I meet, but there are a number of scenes where Ryder is hamstrung into going along with what's happening, despite my wishes to the contrary. Say what you want about the limitations of the Paragon/Renegade schism, but at least it gave you the option of changing the course of conversations and interactions if you had enough good boy/bad boy points. Again, I completely disagree with the notions that Andromeda's story was well-written, or even well-executed. A lot of the main beats in the story were repeats of beats seen in the original trilogy, which lead to the main plot being predictable and boring if you've played any of the first games (if you're familiar with complaints about The Force Awakens in this regard, you pretty much know what my gripes are). It feels like such a waste of potential to travel to an entirely new galaxy only to tell a distilled version of the story you've already told. On top of that, it also managed to feel listless and directionless, although that could be side effect of the fact that the main story doesn't have any sense of immediacy to it until right at the very end. I do agree that they played it too safe. They dropped us into the middle of this conflict between the Kett and the Angara without really giving us a reason to care about what happens apart from "the bad guys are shooting at you too, oh also your dad's dead lol", so they're left trying to justify your involvement after the fact. Compare that to the events of even Mass Effect 1, where you're given a reason to care about the state of the galaxy immediately upon starting (in the process of trying to prove yourself, human colonies start getting attacked). Again, I don't really care about being allowed to be a turbocunt to my squad mates, but I feel like lumping "create a compelling antagonist" in with "be mean to people" is very disingenuous. The lack of a compelling antagonist in Andromeda is a serious issue, not being allowed to be a dick is a minor annoyance. The Archon was a disappointingly weak villain with questionable motivations. He wasn't really interested in Ryder (which is something I can respect) until Ryder became too big a threat to ignore, but even then, it felt like Archy was just as disinterested in the events as I was by that point. He never presented a serious challenge to Ryder, he never did anything that compelled the player to want to stop him, and he never really had a big impact on the narrative. You could take any nameless, faceless Kett soldier, put him in the Archon's shoes, and very little would change. Hell, the Overseer or whatever that stupid thing on Voeld was called made for a more compelling antagonist than the Archon, and it only had five minutes of screentime tops. If these are the guns that Bioware insists on sticking to, it's safe to say that I have no interest in supporting them any longer. I wasn't talking about being mean to characters from the perspective of the player/ Ryder, but from the perspective of the narrative.
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Post by anarchy65 on Aug 8, 2017 2:08:28 GMT
1. Make some different dialogues
I'll give an example: When you find out that the kett are transforming angara on kett, and you come back to the Tempest, everybody has the same kind of dialogue. It's like "Hey, Ryder, the Archon is really evil, we have to stop them." Seriously, that's just it? Nobody would like to compare that to the brainwashing religion has done throughout history (only human history, we don't know if it did anything else for other races), or maybe question why I killed the cardinal (or not) or if they agree that I should have saved the angara or destroyed the place? EVERYBODY who I talked in the Tempest had the same thing to say, it was really boring and frustrating. We go from Thane quoting Hobbes to this?
2. Make dimensional characters
Really, most of the characters on Andromeda don't have a personality. Liam is a bunch of bad jokes (not to mention he's fucking stupid and should be exiled). I don'r remember a single dialogue from Cora that doesn't mention the asari. It's ALWAYS "When I was in asari commando, it was like...". Her entire mission is her quoting her idol's book (which just said obvious things like "stay cool under fire"), ugh. Of course, just to find out that her idol wasn't so nice as she thought, well, who could have guessed that? I feel Peebee is the only character in the team that actually has a personality. Kallo and his memory is pretty nice too, the fact that he doesn't want Gil to make modifications has relation to his memory: he has photographic memory, so he can't forget about why and how they built the Tempest. That's how you build a nice character, but unfortunately it ended there.
3. Make side quests that matter
Seriously, you make decisions in side quests for what? What is the difference between letting a terrorist escape with a virus and killing him? None, because there's no real consequence, that's something that's always been frustrating on Bioware games. Show the consequence of my actions! There are some quests that are some stupid that the entire quest is scanning a thing that is like 3 ft away and come back to the quest giver to get your xp.
4. Give us back the power to give orders to companions, please. Companions in this game don't kill shit, they are only there so your enemies have something else to shoot at.
5. Make better races
Seriously, the angara and the kett were huge disappointments, especially the angara, which you actually interact more. The problem is they are too much like humans. Their "big family" aside, they don't have very remarkable characteristics. The turians are good military, the quarians are tech experts, the volus are good merchants, the asari are monogendered intelligent species (best species on the game IMO), the salarian are quick tempered and minded, and the angara are... nothing. They just have big families. That aside, they are humans. Also, that roekaar thing... ugh, ok, this "fear from outsiders" might happen with other species, but it just threw in your face that it was "nowaday politics". And it wasn't even well built, they just hated for... hate. It's not like the humans actually did anything against them, but since they had bad history with the angara we go back to the old cliche "You aliens are all the same!" ugh, just painful.
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Post by suikoden on Aug 8, 2017 2:12:25 GMT
I think it's self explanatory. There's not much to disprove here either, you stated your opinion, I stated mine.
I think that while ME:A wasn't as terrible as some people may claim, calling it "BioWare's best story to date" is outright laughable.
You didn't 'state' anything you offered a head face emoji thing, and as this is a thread about constructive criticism I would welcome your thoughts on what Andromeda did wrong and how they can improve it on the future. I should also note, if it wasn't clear, my 'five things' are by no means the end all be all it is just what I noticed, if you have things you want to add...like the story...I welcome them. Because there are far too many extremist 'solutions' out there and far too many threads that approach things in a non constructive light. I hope this is not one of them. You'd get less combative responses if you didn't preface all of your points with "Andromeda is the best! Andromeda did it the best! Better than the trilogy!" You've done the exact same thing as the previous constructive criticism post by first voicing your opinion-as-fact (which you do consistently), tainting the rest of your points and any goodwill discussions that might arise from them.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 8, 2017 2:18:51 GMT
1. Make some different dialogues I'll give an example: When you find out that the kett are transforming angara on kett, and you come back to the Tempest, everybody has the same kind of dialogue. It's like "Hey, Ryder, the Archon is really evil, we have to stop them." Seriously, that's just it? Nobody would like to compare that to the brainwashing religion has done throughout history (only human history, we don't know if it did anything else for other races), or maybe question why I killed the cardinal (or not) or if they agree that I should have saved the angara or destroyed the place? EVERYBODY who I talked in the Tempest had the same thing to say, it was really boring and frustrating. We go from Thane quoting Hobbes to this? 2. Make dimensional characters Really, most of the characters on Andromeda don't have a personality. Liam is a bunch of bad jokes (not to mention he's fucking stupid and should be exiled). I don'r remember a single dialogue from Cora that doesn't mention the asari. It's ALWAYS "When I was in asari commando, it was like...". Her entire mission is her quoting her idol's book (which just said obvious things like "stay cool under fire"), ugh. Of course, just to find out that her idol wasn't so nice as she thought, well, who could have guessed that? I feel Peebee is the only character in the team that actually has a personality. Kallo and his memory is pretty nice too, the fact that he doesn't want Gil to make modifications has relation to his memory: he has photographic memory, so he can't forget about why and how they built the Tempest. That's how you build a nice character, but unfortunately it ended there. 3. Make side quests that matter Seriously, you make decisions in side quests for what? What is the difference between letting a terrorist escape with a virus and killing him? None, because there's no real consequence, that's something that's always been frustrating on Bioware games. Show the consequence of my actions! There are some quests that are some stupid that the entire quest is scanning a thing that is like 3 ft away and come back to the quest giver to get your xp. 4. Give us back the power to give orders to companions, please. Companions in this game don't kill shit, they are only there so your enemies have something else to shoot at. 5. Make better races Seriously, the angara and the kett were huge disappointments, especially the angara, which you actually interact more. The problem is they are too much like humans. Their "big family" aside, they don't have very remarkable characteristics. The turians are good military, the quarians are tech experts, the volus are good merchants, the asari are monogendered intelligent species (best species on the game IMO), the salarian are quick tempered and minded, and the angara are... nothing. They just have big families. That aside, they are humans. Also, that roekaar thing... ugh, ok, this "fear from outsiders" might happen with other species, but it just threw in your face that it was "nowaday politics". And it wasn't even well built, they just hated for... hate. It's not like the humans actually did anything against them, but since they had bad history with the angara we go back to the old cliche "You aliens are all the same!" ugh, just painful. Telling bad jokes is a personality trait. Not to mention I disagree. The characters did have layers. Cora had her garden. Liam had all the stuff was his family and his car and etc, etc. Drack didn't feel useful. And againI think this ties into the complexity of the narrative that I mentioned in the OP. And yes I want them to have more complexity next time out but on some level, at least for me, the simplicity worked. Hell it shows some indication that game writing is finally starting to move past TV writing pre nineties to TV of the nineties and even the early 2000s. Just look at Witcher 3 as another good example of that. The Angarra being human was, I feel, part of the point. Because the vast majority of sci fi races, from things like Doctor Who, Star Trek, even Mass Effect and Star Wars, alien races tend to be really one note (much like your criticism of Andromeda's characters) Turians are all about military discpline, Asari are all about progressive arrogance, Vulcans are all about logic. But since the Angarra are humans, deliberatley like us in many ways, they are not one note. Because humanity is an infinitley complex race based on the individual personality. The Angarra likewise are a very compex race. The Kett? Sure I guess but I suspect they will have more layers added onto them later like many a BioWare antagonist.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 8, 2017 2:20:23 GMT
You didn't 'state' anything you offered a head face emoji thing, and as this is a thread about constructive criticism I would welcome your thoughts on what Andromeda did wrong and how they can improve it on the future. I should also note, if it wasn't clear, my 'five things' are by no means the end all be all it is just what I noticed, if you have things you want to add...like the story...I welcome them. Because there are far too many extremist 'solutions' out there and far too many threads that approach things in a non constructive light. I hope this is not one of them. You'd get less combative responses if you didn't preface all of your points with "Andromeda is the best! Andromeda did it the best! Better than the trilogy!" You've done the exact same thing as the previous constructive criticism post by first voicing your opinion-as-fact (which you do consistently), tainting the rest of your points and any goodwill discussions that might arise from them. We've been through this. A. pretty much all my posts are opinions and B. threads and posts like this prove that I do not think Andromeda is 'the best'. It could learn a lot, from other games, from tv, from BioWare, etc.
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