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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 7, 2021 23:21:55 GMT
It’s not motivation that’s the problem with LoFs, it’s the limited options for personality and role playing. Only certain people would be a part of that group. It’d be like playing DA2 but only having Purple Hawke as personality options. It was a question which has been raised here few days ago. But that aside: I totally agree with you. I see the limited options and I also don't like the idea of a LoF as a protagonist. Unless he/she is different from the other LoFs, as I have just explained. But as mentioned, if they were different why be a part of the group since it’s not one that forces membership like the Wardens. So yeah, LoF does not work well for a protagonist background. A companion sure, but not protagonist.
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 7, 2021 23:35:47 GMT
It’s not motivation that’s the problem with LoFs, it’s the limited options for personality and role playing. Only certain people would be a part of that group. It’d be like playing DA2 but only having Purple Hawke as personality options. I understand that this is your concern, I just don’t think being a LoF binds us to that personality. All being a LoF really means is that you are an adventurer that may take jobs for hire or potentially seek out adventure. But within that you can play any kind of personality potentially. Maybe you use the proceeds of your adventuring to fund an orphanage, or just use the jobs to travel. To think all LoF must be self centered egotists is making a lot of assumptions.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2021 23:38:13 GMT
It was a question which has been raised here few days ago. But that aside: I totally agree with you. I see the limited options and I also don't like the idea of a LoF as a protagonist. Unless he/she is different from the other LoFs, as I have just explained. But as mentioned, if they were different why be a part of the group since it’s not one that forces membership like the Wardens. Being part of a group gives you special skills. I refer, for example, to Geralt of Rivia and his skills as a witcher. But that's mostly all.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 7, 2021 23:49:12 GMT
It’s not motivation that’s the problem with LoFs, it’s the limited options for personality and role playing. Only certain people would be a part of that group. It’d be like playing DA2 but only having Purple Hawke as personality options. I understand that this is your concern, I just don’t think being a LoF binds us to that personality. All being a LoF really means is that you are an adventurer that may take jobs for hire or potentially seek out adventure. But within that you can play any kind of personality potentially. Maybe you use the proceeds of your adventuring to fund an orphanage, or just use the jobs to travel. To think all LoF must be self centered egotists is making a lot of assumptions. Once they show evidence to the contrary I’ll change my opinion. But so far everything we’ve seen and heard has them as such.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 7, 2021 23:50:04 GMT
But as mentioned, if they were different why be a part of the group since it’s not one that forces membership like the Wardens. Being part of a group gives you special skills. I refer, for example, to Geralt of Rivia and his skills as a witcher. But that's mostly all. Lord of Funtune doesn’t give any special skills though. So it’s not even good for that.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2021 1:52:23 GMT
Applause Applause Applause. What some people seem to forget is...while not every RPG does a good job of it so it can be a concern...but for me the ideal RPG is one that gives you a template to work with and then lets you run wild with it. Shepard was an Alliance Marine, Special Forces, and then a Spectre...the game let you RP whether you wanted to play a law and order stick to the rules and galactic order or a renegade doing whatever they take to win. The same thing is certainly true of the LoF...or the Sicarri...or the Crows. You can play a greedy money grubber or buck the trend and play someone altruistic and out for the people. Also to say nothing of the potential background. Maybe you joined them as a kid, blinded by tales of glory, maybe you had little choice to join the organization and are in it just because there was no other options. The sky is the limit and since BioWare tends to be very good at this whole RPG thing...Hawke, the Inquisitor, and Ryder were all terric RPG protagonists...I see little reason for that to change. I have no difficulty in agreeing with you, Colfoley. Neither in regard to your statememts about the magnificence of Anders nor... in general. The given examples hit the mark and underline my arguments in the best possible way. I often run out of words when I try to describe exactly how good or bad things made me feel or when I try to present complex subjects and concepts in an understandable way. I am not a native English speaker, so I am all the more pleased to see you doing the work for me. At least I could learn a few useful phrases or some expressions which will keep a conversation going. Referring to your statement about the ideal RPG (that gives you a template to work with and then lets you run wild with it): That's how I see it, too. But I think this only works if there is a powerful story to tell and the protagonist is a well elaborated character. Yeah, BioWare tends to be very good at this whole RPG thing but I have to confess... I don't know... just let me think for a second... My impression is that they are good - but not good enough. The stories they tell deal with serious issues but unfortunately in a childish way. Many of them lack depth. In this regard DA:I represents a low point in the development of the franchise. For me, DA:I was cartoonish and flat and not touching at all. A matured style for DA4 would be a good idea. But this requires going back to the roots which isn't going to happen, I'm afraid.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2021 2:22:56 GMT
Being part of a group gives you special skills. I refer, for example, to Geralt of Rivia and his skills as a witcher. But that's mostly all. Lord of Funtune doesn’t give any special skills though. So it’s not even good for that. I think we are agreed that they're a worthless sack of shit. (I learned that from you. )
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Feb 8, 2021 2:47:27 GMT
Personally I like the idea of being a siccari slightly more then a Lord of Fortune (although I can imagine fun starts and hooks into the main plot for both) and of having multiple choices more then that.
But more and more I'm liking the idea of Viper's Minrathous Underground or "Forgotten Tevinter". Or atleast what it has the potential to be since we only got a little snapshot of it in Minrathous Shadows
If it really is a secret network working against corruption in Minrathous and/or working for the people then it could have all sorts of members/informants. We know there's a Templar, probably frustrated and driven to vigilantism by the fact that he needs permission from a corrupt system to investigate an altus or get an enchanted weapon (the only edge Tevinter Templars have) out of the armory. They're could also be slaves, guards, merchants, ambassadoria, even government officials or a few upper class. People who just pass along information, people who smuggle items or steal documents, people who actually go after targets. People who are involved out of altruism, involved because they hope the group will make their lives better, involved because they want to use the group to take out their rivals.
As an organisation it could allow alot of different backgrounds, different levels of participation, and different motivations for joining.
IF that's what the group is.
The group could also just be like 2-5 guys all with animal code names like Viper going around handing out vigilante justice. Like Oliver Queen going around telling people "you have failed this city" but instead it's "we're the Tevinter you forgot" and "what do we want? Everything". That's like, way less interesting to me, but perfectly possible.
I suspect that whatever shape the Minrathous Shadows take it's more likely that Viper is a companion than that the group is a background, but a girl can dream.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 8, 2021 2:56:47 GMT
Lord of Funtune doesn’t give any special skills though. So it’s not even good for that. I think that we are agreed that they're a worthless sack of shit. (I learned that from you. )
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Post by catcher on Feb 8, 2021 15:56:34 GMT
The given examples hit the mark and underline my arguments in the best possible way. I often run out of words when I try to describe exactly how good or bad things made me feel or when I try to present complex subjects and concepts in an understandable way. I am not a native English speaker, so I am all the more pleased to see you doing the work for me. At least I am glad to learn a few useful phrases or some expressions which will keep a conversation going. Referring to your statement about the ideal RPG (that gives you a template to work with and then lets you run wild with it): That's how I see it, too. But I think this only works if there is a powerful story to tell and the protagonist is a well elaborated character. Yeah, BioWare tends to be very good at this whole RPG thing but I have to confess... I don't know... just let me think for a second... My impression is that they are good - but not good enough. The stories they tell deal with serious issues but unfortunately in a childish way. Many of them lack depth. In this regard DA:I represents a low point in the development of the franchise. For me, DA:I was cartoonish and flat and not touching at all. A matured style for DA4 would be a good idea. But this requires going back to the roots which isn't going to happen, I'm afraid. If you don't mind, would you give a couple of examples of actions that are cartoonish, flat or otherwise fail to connect with you in DA:I and some examples of something similar that works for you from another game? As I think we've all seen, different players can have wildly varying reactions to the same basic situations. I understand better from specific examples than from generalities. One of the disadvantages Bioware has regardless of who they select as the protagonist in DA4 is pre-built character definition. Using a popular character from a long series of books like Geralt of Rivia has certain advantages or CDPR wouldn't have paid for him. On the other side, that type of character limits appeal of the game largely to people who read the books or find some particular element of that character interesting. If a Player wants to play a female protagonist, she/he is out of luck for example. The advantage to a protagonist without literary history is that there are a greater variety of options available, but they have to be limited by resources. My preference is to give the Player a few choices at the beginning, but to emphasize the world, in the form of companion interactions, support interactions, quests, even villains, giving these choices weight in the narrative. The methods for those interactions is the sticky part which is why I'm always hungry for feedback from many Players. In any case thanks for your time and effort. I guarantee your English is far superior to whatever I would attempt at your more familiar language.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2021 18:35:27 GMT
If you don't mind, would you give a couple of examples of actions that are cartoonish, flat or otherwise fail to connect with you in DA:I and some examples of something similar that works for you from another game? As I think we've all seen, different players can have wildly varying reactions to the same basic situations. I understand better from specific examples than from generalities. I've played DA:I only for 5 or 6 hours before giving up as I could not stand... almost anything about it. Then I tried to "enjoy" some playthroughs on YouTube: different endings, different romance options etc. Finally I decided to watch a DA:I-"Movie" (= all cutscenes). But it always ended the same way: I was disappointed. Why?
The plot: it’s lazy. It’s generic. It’s essentially not there. The main plot of the game revolves around a big bad that now wants to destroy the world with hell gates. He has a thing and you kill him, you destroy the thing. That is all that happens. It’s the most generic plotline I've seen in quite some time.
If you contrast to say Dragon Age: Origins, in that game the plot is interwoven into the world. It doesn't have this reoccurring blight that must be fought back. The plot would not work outside of Dragon Age. DA:I, however, has a plotline that would work anywhere, it’s not really any different from Mass Effect or any big bad wants to destroy the world story. The open world concept made the whole thing even worse. In DA:I the open world is barren. BioWare have dropped things, here and there with really no thought put into it. Why is this camp here? Does it make any sense? No, but they needed to put something here to stop the game being completely empty. But for the most part the open world is simply empty landscape.
Unfortunately, the empty landscape is where you will spend the vast majority of your time. So how do they fill this empty landscape with reasons to be there? Empty fetch quests! You will spend almost all your time in DA:I going to a random NPC that wants some random thing fetched, you will then go to that place and then you are done. Go find another thing to go to. Finally, let's have a look on the romance options. One of the worst (in my opinion): Cullen. How to build positive relations with Cullen? During all of the conversations participated by Cullen pick the dialogue options that suggest being positive towards the actions of the Templars. Soon after you reach Skyhold, he should finally react to your advances, as a result of which you will kiss. One of he next quests is "Happier Times", where you accompany Cullen to the place that he has pleasant memories connected with. The meeting should end up in another kiss and you receive a present from him. Tadaaa! Just as in real life.
I agree, of course, with you that different players can have wildly varying reactions to the same basic situations. I can only speak from my personal point of view. As I mentioned earlier, I am fed up with the romance-concept of putting kindness coins into a man or a woman until sex falls out. It is outdated and boring but it is what you have to do in order to romance a character in Dragon Age. In 2009, when DA:O was released, it was new and therefore quite interesting. But as I grew older I got the feeling that these stories and concepts no longer satisfy me. So the main point here is probably the fact, that I am 12 years older now, I've changed - but the game didn't. At least not in the "right" direction. That is definitely true. Inquisition lets you create a character and role-play in the traditional sense. Wild Hunt is more of a Geralt of Rivia-simulator, and you’re choosing how you want to act in a more predetermined part.
I have to say that I started with The Witcher II + III without even reading the books. Meanwhile I have read "The Last Wish" and I found it quite enjoyable, but I find the storytelling in the game much more compelling. It's a brilliant mix of hillarious dialogues, dark stories full of tragedy and three-dimensional characters. Even the members of Wild Hunt’s rogue’s gallery often had their own complicated and conflicting motivations, and each of them served to test the relationship between Geralt and Ciri in different ways.
CDPR devoted plenty of time to open up a whole new world for you and to introduce the characters (200 hours gameplay) and it's really paid off. I was crying so hard when Geralt found Ciri. The moment I cried even more… the one in which we had to say goodbye to Vesemir. I loved the bloody baron's story. It's a story that almost all of us could relate to. Even the 'prayer' that was spoken by the baron to Dea was so touching, especially the part when he said "Forgive me, you who came, but whom I did not embrace." The game is full of such moments. These characters grow so much on you, that you really get attached to them. Something that I had never experienced during playing/watching DA:I.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 8, 2021 18:53:40 GMT
@ven
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2021 19:08:42 GMT
@ven That's not true. I am in fact older than I was in 2009.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 8, 2021 21:55:33 GMT
People like The Witcher? I hadn't heard that, how very fascinating.
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Post by river82 on Feb 8, 2021 22:33:51 GMT
People like The Witcher? I hadn't heard that, how very fascinating. Still haven't finished Witcher 3 TBH. It's a good game but certain things made it feel a bit more superficial than I wanted an open world to be. For example when I got to the first city there was almost nothing there, it was like the entire city was just a pretty backdrop. I dropped the game not long after. Funnily enough it was one of my complaints of DA:I you got to the city and ... what?!?!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2021 22:50:53 GMT
@ven That's not true. I am in fact older than I was in 2009. "Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now."
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2021 0:15:40 GMT
That's not true. I am in fact older than I was in 2009. "Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now." "Oh baby baby it's a wild world...'
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Post by theascendent on Feb 9, 2021 1:22:28 GMT
If Lord of Fortune is too divisive I can already imagine the consternation of a possible Slave Origin.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 9, 2021 8:17:27 GMT
If Lord of Fortune is too divisive I can already imagine the consternation of a possible Slave Origin. I don't see how that follows, but regardless, if creators only did things that every single member of their fan base would agree with and enjoy, there would be no art of any kind.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 9, 2021 9:57:37 GMT
If Lord of Fortune is too divisive I can already imagine the consternation of a possible Slave Origin. I don't think the vast majority of people on these forums or in the general public will care over much about the Lord of Fortune being the background if they end up being one. N
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Post by The Elder King on Feb 9, 2021 10:18:11 GMT
If Lord of Fortune is too divisive I can already imagine the consternation of a possible Slave Origin. I don't see how that follows, but regardless, if creators only did things that every single member of their fan base would agree with and enjoy, there would be no art of any kind. I agree on your point. As for theascendent, his point is that more people might not like having a slave origin then a LoF origin.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 9, 2021 11:14:01 GMT
I don't see how that follows, but regardless, if creators only did things that every single member of their fan base would agree with and enjoy, there would be no art of any kind. I agree on your point. As for theascendent, his point is that more people might not like having a slave origin then a LoF origin. I understand the statement, I don't follow the logic. There's no rational reason why a slave background should be more disliked than a rogue-ish treasure hunter background. They're both extremely common for fantasy protagonists.
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Post by catcher on Feb 9, 2021 16:39:19 GMT
Thanks for taking the time. I'm going to file most of what you said away for now since it covers a lot more ground than the thread intended I've played DA:I only for 5 or 6 hours before giving up as I could not stand... almost anything about it. Then I tried to "enjoy" some playthroughs on YouTube: different endings, different romance options etc. Finally I decided to watch a DA:I-"Movie" (= all cutscenes). But it always ended the same way: I was disappointed. Why?
The first thing you said is obviously the epic fail point for the game. It's always a sad thing for me to hear a gamer giving up on a game in frustration and/or disappointment. Fortunately for us, it also has to do in part with the 'Beginnings, Backgrounds, and Origins' the thread was founded on. 5 or 6 hours in means you got to what point, exactly (I'm a slow player in my own estimation so I'm not going to make a guess)? I will venture that you didn't get to the 'reveal' moment for Corypheus so villan disappointment (which I share, BTW) wasn't part of the equation. Outside the perceived emptiness of the open environment, what specifically about the opening (Wakeup in the Fade to unfurling the Inquisition banner in Haven) either failed to capture your attention or was even negative? What specific sequence from the beginning of Witcher II or III had the opposite effect? How does one effectively open a game with a loosely defined protagonist? I've got some thoughts myself on the subject but I would like to hear others. Again, thanks for taking the time.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Feb 9, 2021 17:02:10 GMT
In terms of operations, The LoF are closer to the Red Jennies than, say, the Grey Wardens or Inquisition. The LoF in Herold Had the Plan had varied relationships - Bharv and Herold were close, but Emil was somewhat of a stranger to Bharv and he didn’t even know if she was using her true accent. In other words, they seem to be a loose organization with members who don’t know each other very well. That doesn’t resonate with what’s currently on the site about “forging a fellowship.”
That being said, I wonder how the LoF - and specifically our protagonist- will be involved. I would gather that the LoF are somehow made aware of Solas plans - but why are we also getting help from the crows, Tevinter, and the Grey wardens if the LoF are skilled enough ourselves? Are the LoF that loose that they cannot join arms together, or could it possibly be a situation where, as Patrick Weekes said, “people aren’t willing to address the issues?”
Maybe the rest of our Lords won’t listen, and we’d have to do it all on our own? Or even more - some DO listen, but they decide to do it their own way and create problems for our protagonist. Their goal may be to break into the black city and gain the treasure for themselves, since Solas plans seemingly involve it. Being ostracized by your faction only to wind out on top after saving the world sounds pretty heroic to me.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: HeimdallX
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 9, 2021 17:23:24 GMT
In terms of operations, The LoF are closer to the Red Jennies than, say, the Grey Wardens or Inquisition. The LoF in Herold Had the Plan had varied relationships - Bharv and Herold were close, but Emil was somewhat of a stranger to Bharv and he didn’t even know if she was using her true accent. In other words, they seem to be a loose organization with members who don’t know each other very well. That doesn’t resonate with what’s currently on the site about “forging a fellowship.” That being said, I wonder how the LoF - and specifically our protagonist- will be involved. I would gather that the LoF are somehow made aware of Solas plans - but why are we also getting help from the crows, Tevinter, and the Grey wardens if the LoF are skilled enough ourselves? Are the LoF that loose that they cannot join arms together, or could it possibly be a situation where, as Patrick Weekes said, “people aren’t willing to address the issues?” Maybe the rest of our Lords won’t listen, and we’d have to do it all on our own? Or even more - some DO listen, but they decide to do it their own way and create problems for our protagonist. Their goal may be to break into the black city and gain the treasure for themselves, since Solas plans seemingly involve it. Being ostracized by your faction only to wind out on top after saving the world sounds pretty heroic to me. I’m under the impression that the LoF are less of an organized group and more of a guild of lone adventurers that mostly operate independently of one another. I suspect it will be less a question of the Lords of Fortune as an organization getting involved so much as the Inquisition hiring a LoF (as we saw them do in Tevinter Nights) who then gets drawn into the fight against Solas. Like any other RPG, we find a party of allies in the plot, with their own reasons for wanting to participate in fighting Solas or something like that.
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