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Post by smilesja on Sept 21, 2017 23:05:26 GMT
What are you guys' theories about the Titans? In DAI, I was pretty disappointed that we only learned very little of them. They obviously have some sort of connection to the Dwarves and it seemed that Dwarven history tried to erase them for some reason. So what do you guys think happened? What about the Titans that may make them dangerous?
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Post by formerfiend on Sept 21, 2017 23:09:36 GMT
I don't have any. They're literally the least interesting thing in the entire Dragon Age mythos to me. I would more interested in playing a game or reading a novel that detailed the life of the dwarven paragon who figured out nugs were edible than a game or novel that focused on the titans.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Sept 22, 2017 0:08:49 GMT
I'm very interested in the titans.
I theorise that they created the physical thedas that spirits and elves would later visit and populate. Possibly even the whole planet is just made up of titans lying stationary. As creations of the titans the dwarves are also more physical then other thedas races which is why the don't go to the fade when they dream.
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Post by midnightwolf on Sept 22, 2017 0:27:51 GMT
It's not really a theory, and I may be entirely wrong but: I always assumed that the Titan's were part of the reason Dwarf's had no magic and were immune to it. And also why Sandal appears to be Tranquil and able to enchant items. Since, if my memory serves, only he Tranquil CAN enchant.
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Post by Hrungr on Sept 22, 2017 1:01:47 GMT
As Titans may be the first children of the Stone, my guess is that the bulk of Thedas is the Stone. And its Titans on the surface helped shape it.
I also think the Stone is what the Ancient Elves feared waking (and killing them all) after the Evanuris slew a number of Titans for their Lyrium and turning them into their homes.
And I have a feeling that the Black City is Blighted Titan. The fact that the Blight and Titans both "sing" can't be a coincidence. And I think the Old Gods are tied to the events surrounding what happened to that Titan.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Sept 22, 2017 1:13:14 GMT
As Titans may be the first children of the Stone, my guess is that the bulk of Thedas is the Stone. And its Titans on the surface helped shape it. I also think the Stone is what the Ancient Elves feared waking (and killing them all) after the Evanuris slew a number of Titans for their Lyrium and turning them into their homes. And I have a feeling that the Black City is Blighted Titan. The fact that the Blight and Titans both "sing" can't be a coincidence. And I think the Old Gods are tied to the events surrounding what happened to that Titan. I wonder/hope if in "DA4" will be able to hear this "singing". Unless this "singing" is what caused the earthquakes/aftershocks. Though the Red Templar during the Quarry Rescue quest kept saying, "The song will not be denied!" What song?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 22, 2017 1:23:01 GMT
As Titans may be the first children of the Stone, my guess is that the bulk of Thedas is the Stone. And its Titans on the surface helped shape it. I also think the Stone is what the Ancient Elves feared waking (and killing them all) after the Evanuris slew a number of Titans for their Lyrium and turning them into their homes. And I have a feeling that the Black City is Blighted Titan. The fact that the Blight and Titans both "sing" can't be a coincidence. And I think the Old Gods are tied to the events surrounding what happened to that Titan. I wonder/hope if in "DA4" will be able to hear this "singing". Unless this "singing" is what caused the earthquakes/aftershocks. Though the Red Templar during the Quarry Rescue quest kept saying, "The song will not be denied!" What song? Either the song from Red Lyrium or the Blight within it.
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Post by wickedcool on Sept 22, 2017 15:21:11 GMT
Is the descent end boss part of the titan? Hope the model/animations get a bump in graphic improvement for that
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 22, 2017 20:40:33 GMT
My theory is that the Creators were originally spirits that left the Fade in order to interact with the material world. The first of these spirits was Elgar'nan and others followed him. The use of magic to create magical constructs was sufficiently strong that it stirred up a Titan, so resulting in earthquakes that destroyed these works and in retaliation Elgar'nan and Mythal destroyed the Titan. The in-between world of the Crossroads may have been created by the Evanuris in order to minimise the likelihood of awakening any more Titans.
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Post by rapscallioness on Sept 22, 2017 22:17:23 GMT
I don't think the Titans are dangerous at all. I think the Evanuris did something they were not supposed to, and this irritated the Titans. Like frakking. I also don't think the dwarves erased the memory of the Titans on purpose. I think that their memory of the Titans and their connection to them were sundered by Mythal. The dwarves were naturally connected to this type of magic until Mythal cut them off from it.
Lyrium is the Titan blood and may be the precursor to the idea of blood magic. It's like they're replaying--perhaps unconsciously-the slaughter of the Titans for the lyrium blood power.
After the evanuris were in Thedas so long, their magic might have started diminishing. There are some readings about this and how at first the evanuris were kind of light and free, but after awhile of existing in Thedas they were becoming bogged down, if you will. So, perhaps, they were looking for a way to boost their magic back up. The power of lyrium, and maybe even the dwarves' connection to this type of magic caught their attention. After awhile even that was not enough; so someone had the bright idea of red lyrium. In a search for more power, they corrupted the blood. The evanuris trespassed on Thedas in some profound ways.
Also, reading one of the entries about the elven "gods", leads me to believe that the Elves were not created by the Evanuris. The Elves were already alive in Thedas when the evanuris showed up. It's the stanza about the crafting evanuris. I can't remember the name right now. Something with an "S". At any rate, this crafting evanuris noted how the elves of Thedas were naked; didn't have fire, or bows and arrows, and so s/he gifted this knowledge to them.
This leads me to believe that the true Elves of Thedas were already here. The evanuris did not create them, but rather took on their form, perhaps so as not to startle them. Or if I'm being cynical, so as to more easily manipulate them because really the Thedas elves were seen as no more than slaves to most of the evanuris. Except Solas. And I'm not really sure about his motivations. Was it to free the elves? Or was it a way to undermine the ruling party by taking their minions away. Or a little bit of both?
Too, in that stanza about Bright Axe..Tyrdda, well there is a line that always rubbed me the wrong way. When Tyrdda's leaf earred lover talks about the dwarves saying something to the effect of, let them stay in their caves where they belong. It's this very smug condescending vibe that I don't like. I think Mythal cut them off from themselves because they were a threat to the Evanuris efforts to harvest the blood of the Titans.
I think the Evanuris are the real dangerous ones. And they are the trespassers.
That's my theory.
btw: I also noticed that the Titan Descent end boss..with that eye part..looks alot like the seeker symbol. With the eye and rays coming out the sides. I may be seeing things with that, though. Just throwing it out there.
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Post by xerrai on Sept 23, 2017 1:00:49 GMT
I wonder what it is like to be a Titan? When they were active in the past we are lead to believe that they had some connection to the dwarves and vice versa, but now that the veil is up and the dwarves are disconnected from it, we see that what Titans are left are essentially in permanent hibernation. Which makes me wonder why the dwarves are able to adapt and continue being active while the Titans seems to be in a comatose state.
It's like without the connection to the dwarves, the Titans are incapable of doing anything more than simply existing. There are several hints of Titans being able to do marvels like shaping the earth but now they in a state to where most of the world is oblivious to their existence. They just...are.
It's like without the dwarves, the Titans become 'lesser' than what they were. Which is kind of sad depending on if you believe they had some sort of sentience in the past (of which i'm still not sure). I guess if I had to draw comparison, I would guess its like a complex spirit with will and a semblance of personality becoming a wisp in terms of existence.
Or I could be completely wrong and their "hibernation" is in actuality their comfortable natural state that they want to be in. As much as an unknown earth giant can 'want' anything, at any rate.
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Post by rapscallioness on Sept 23, 2017 3:11:40 GMT
I wonder what it is like to be a Titan? When they were active in the past we are lead to believe that they had some connection to the dwarves and vice versa, but now that the veil is up and the dwarves are disconnected from it, we see that what Titans are left are essentially in permanent hibernation. Which makes me wonder why the dwarves are able to adapt and continue being active while the Titans seems to be in a comatose state. It's like without the connection to the dwarves, the Titans are incapable of doing anything more than simply existing. There are several hints of Titans being able to do marvels like shaping the earth but now they in a state to where most of the world is oblivious to their existence. They just...are. It's like without the dwarves, the Titans become 'lesser' than what they were. Which is kind of sad depending on if you believe they had some sort of sentience in the past (of which i'm still not sure). I guess if I had to draw comparison, I would guess its like a complex spirit with will and a semblance of personality becoming a wisp in terms of existence. Or I could be completely wrong and their "hibernation" is in actuality their comfortable natural state that they want to be in. As much as an unknown earth giant can 'want' anything, at any rate. Hmm, good question. We know that in Descent the Titans were apparently singing and shaking because of the Breach. Sooo, it would seem the influx of Fade energy was stirring them up, or awakening them? But what does that reaction to the Fade say about the Titans? IIRC, Cole said something about how even the Spirits were irritated by the Breach. I forget why...it was too much at once, or something? I'm not sure that applies in this instance, though. I never considered how the dwarves being sundered from the Titans might impact the Titans themselves. Almost like...they are without "limbs" now. Or..like the Titans could be akin to the Will and the dwarves were the way that Will could manifest and, well, take shape. Who knows, maybe the dwarves do remember some of their connection because they are still considered master builders in Thedas. Then I also wonder if the Titans are indeed hibernating, or somehow trapped. The dwarf/Titan connection was severed on purpose. I'm not clear on why exactly, or how, but from what I understand Mythal was the one that did this. And I think it was before the Solas dropped the Veil. In many ways Titans feel more like a force/aspect of nature than a "being", so to say. Yet there was a clear war with these Titan "beings". These earth giants. We were inside one, so they're very big, which makes it hard for me to imagine them walking about Thedas and being active in that physical way. There are stories celebrating the defeat of the Titans, but maybe the severed connection with the dwarves is how they were defeated because the Titans could have been the idea of a "shape" and the dwarves of that time were the hands that molded that idea into physical form.... Eeesh, I'm getting too far down the rabbit hole. It kind of reminds me of the old dragon gods that are "sleeping". When they are awakened by the Darkspawn they are corrupted by the darkspawn. Apparently, it is a pretty painful and horrific experience for these old dragons to be awakened by the darkspawn. The Archdemon and the spirit of the old god within it, are not willing accomplices in the whole Blight and leading the darkspawn thing. It's the unconscious singing by these old gods as they sleep that helps the darkspawn find them. But they are able to hear the old god song even before it is tainted to become the Archdemon. As was mentioned upthread, these Titans sing like that, too. It seems as though this singing ability is not dependent on being tainted, rather it is natural to these creatures. But ofc after they are tainted they are singing them to march a different march. One of destruction, not creation.. Eeesh. I need more information. lol! But I think the Titans and all that is very interesting. I mean, it's a huge part of the Origin story of Thedas. And I do love a good origin story.
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Post by Hrungr on Sept 23, 2017 5:39:58 GMT
It kind of reminds me of the old dragon gods that are "sleeping". When they are awakened by the Darkspawn they are corrupted by the darkspawn. Apparently, it is a pretty painful and horrific experience for these old dragons to be awakened by the darkspawn. The Archdemon and the spirit of the old god within it, are not willing accomplices in the whole Blight and leading the darkspawn thing. It's the unconscious singing by these old gods as they sleep that helps the darkspawn find them. But they are able to hear the old god song even before it is tainted to become the Archdemon. As was mentioned upthread, these Titans sing like that, too. It seems as though this singing ability is not dependent on being tainted, rather it is natural to these creatures. But ofc after they are tainted they are singing them to march a different march. One of destruction, not creation.. Eeesh. I need more information. lol! But I think the Titans and all that is very interesting. I mean, it's a huge part of the Origin story of Thedas. And I do love a good origin story. For a while I've been wondering about the Old Gods being the "victims" of the darkspawn and their "corruption" into Archdemons. The imprisoned Old Gods go through the trouble of teaching the humans magic and later tempting the Magisters Sidereal to use that power to breach the "Golden City" with the promise of becoming gods themselves. Rather magnanimous of them. And when they do, according to Corypheus, the city was already black... but he expected it to be golden. Did the Old Gods create a Fade illusion of a Golden City to hide it's true nature? All of which sounds a lot like they were tricked into entering the Black City, knowing they would be corrupted by the Blight when they did. Sounds suspiciously like a plan being put into motion. The Titans, the Blight, and the Old Gods all generate a "song". I think it's all related. I think the Black City is Blighted Titan. I think the Old Gods are connected somehow to that Titan, but perhaps prior to it being consumed by the Blight. The Black City is imprisoned in the Fade, almost impossible to reach, while the Old Gods are imprisoned on Thedas, with no way to reach it. Almost like they were deliberately kept apart. The telling part here is that the darkspawn are specifically drawn to the "song" of the Old Gods. They're not drawn to the song of the other Titans. In fact, they avoid them. And when they find an Old God, their instinct is to pass the Blight onto them. Not kill them, or try and turn them into broodmothers, or anything else. So what if that's what the Old Gods intended all along? - They're now free. - They're more powerful. - They now have vast armies at their command. - And now possess a special kind of immortality. As the Old Gods were once spirits, we know from Solas that if they die, they lose their identity, even if they may one day return as a new spirit. But as an Archdemon, if they die, they can be reborn into any darkspawn with their identities intact. If it wasn't for those pesky Grey Wardens figuring out a way to permanently kill one, the world would have long since been overrun. Anyway, just some late night musings...
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Post by simit on Sept 23, 2017 12:13:10 GMT
it reads like a warped history of azeroth
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 23, 2017 13:16:36 GMT
What has to be remembered about all this is that the history we were previously taught about the origins of the Blight, which was part of Chantry propaganda, is probably wholly inaccurate. The Chant of Light may not even accurately reflect what Andraste taught on the matter.
In the Core Rule Book it is suggested that the Warden scholars have long held a different theory. They suggested that the Magisters had already been seeking Dumat before the Blight and had already found him before attempting the assault on the Golden City. Certainly it was through his counsel that they were able to get there.
However, the codex entry from Corypheus servant in Into the Abyss seems to suggest that he undertook the mission because he was finding it difficult to contact his god. This seems backed up by the entries concerning the followers of Razikale in the Frostback Basin. So for some reason it would seem the Old Gods stopped communicating with their followers. This continued to be the case after the assault on the City. This would suggest that the whole point of their "whispering" was to get the level of magical expertise in Tevinter to the point where the assault could be undertaken, with the intent of releasing the Blight.
I also think the empty throne is not that of the Maker but probably one of the Evanuris, either Elgar'nan or Mythal. Whether the Old Gods are the Evanuris whispering from their prison in the Void, whether they are the Forgotten Ones, or something else entirely, I think the Blight is connected to them and part of their plan to conquer the world.
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Post by duskwanderer on Sept 24, 2017 3:38:40 GMT
I think that the Titans are the building blocks of the waking world. I think that they are creatures solely detached from the world of the Fade. Perhaps it is their lyrium, which is tied to the real world, that prevents them from being part of the Fade. The elves might fear this, since they are creatures of both worlds. The spirits, which are curious by nature, would also be drawn to it.
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Post by rapscallioness on Sept 25, 2017 3:21:54 GMT
I need a flow chart for all this lore, but I love that.
Okay, lessee:
*snip* (too much stuff)
The thing about the whispering voices is that, for me, it's kind of like the internet in that you don't really know who you're talking to, despite what they may tell you. So, did these old gods go to the trouble of teaching humans magic so they could build the prowess needed to breach the golden city? I think that's quite plausible. Yet, humans, or at least these early tribes, already had very powerful Dreamer magic, as well as assisted and loved by this laugh lady of the skies.
Did the old gods need to re-teach humans powerful magic? Did we lose the knowledge of this somewhere down the line? Was this before or after the Veil dropped? Could that have affected the magical nature of these humans? Or could the coupling with the sundered dwarven tribes have subdued magical ability later to be re-taught?
But are these old gods who taught humans these things the same as the later beckoning whisper voices? The Magisters may have found Dumat before they entered the golden city, as some Grey Warden scholars speculate, and it was Dumat that helped them enter the city. "A few Grey Warden scholars believe they may have even found him by that time, and that it was he who helped them to reach the Golden City," (DAWikia). It doesn't sound like they found Dumat in the midst of assaulting the GC, but I could very well have missed that nugget.
Still, I'm confused by this, though. Wasn't Dumat-the old god-supposed to be "asleep" already? But let's go with it, the Magisters found Dumat in the Deep Roads, awoke him from his curse, or his imprisonment. And this is all pre taint, so then they go to the city and whamee they're all tainted now. Yet, Cory states that he absolutely did not find his god, Dumat. The "throne" was empty. Thus his ensuing existential crisis, and the whole "be the god" now since his experience led him to believe there is no god. No maker. No dumat. Nothing. After all that.
Was this all an elaborate plan as Hrungr pointed out in an effort to retain his conscious identity? With the idea being that Dumat thought he was going to die, or maybe as a way to free himself from a death like imprisonment? But then as Gervaise pointed out, the reason Cory went looking was because they could no longer communicate with their gods. The people were losing faith in those gods and shifting their faith. This troubled Cory deeply. I'm not sold on the idea that, though, there is a literal throne of the Maker, or whomever. I see it as a way of saying seat of power, even source of power.
It very well could all be a ruse to release the Blight. Take over Thedas, and attain a form of conscious immortality. Or it could be more straightforward and simply be that something happened to those old gods that cut the line of communication.
TL:DR This way too long let me try valiantly to be more succinct;
OG's started whispering to the Neromenians in 2800 Ancient. The Blight was unleashed 395 Ancient. So, we have about 2400 years of whispering. Around 395 Ancient is when the Magisters decided to breach the GC, I'm guessing to find Dumat more than breach the city because it sounds like that was foremost in Cory's mind at the time. Either way, I don't understand how they lost communication, and yet Dumat was on the spot to communicate his approval of the plan. Unless someone, or something else picked up the line.
And how does this tie to the Titans. Does the Blighted Titan in its way call/sing to these old gods, too? Is there something else pulling them there besides straight skulduggery? If there was a connection between the Titans and these old gods, perhaps this blighted Titan/GC is calling out for their help. Healing. But in the process the old gods are getting all tainted and messed upminds and can't reach it.
Maybe that's the reason Solas gets upset at the idea of killing all the old gods because they may actually be the ones that can save this blighted Titan and end the blight, IF they can remain untainted on the way there.
I remember that mural in Trespasser with what looked the story of the Titan/s being taken down. The one that looked like it got hit with something. It could be in their war a weapon was used to defeat the Titans. It introduced the Blight, or even simply manifested as the Blight in the Titan in a kind of chemical reaction. Ofc, it got out of control like an infectious disease that impacts not just people, but the land itself. That's what Titans do, they shape the land, so if they're sick, the land is sick. It was desperately sealed off to contain it. There remains a deep connection between it and the old gods, or Dumat specifically being the most powerful one them.
I'm not clear on when this Maker sealed away the old gods. After human civilizations were well established and apparently worshiping the Maker by a different name? People turned away from the Maker, he got upset and cast the old gods down into imprisonment. Although, some sources say it's just the hibernation cycle of these dragon beings and has nothing to do with the Maker. These being do sleep and dream a long time. Is this what Andraste taught? Or was this Maker casting them down a later addition? Or is this section the reason the Magisters lost contact with their gods? Is that the time period we're talking about?
All of this was long after the War of the Titans, though. All this time that Blighted Titan might have been calling, calling, calling. But getting to it, my god, may even be too much for the darkspawn what with all that concentrated blight.
Tbh, I'm side eyeing this Maker character in all this. I think this being has alot more to do with All this BS then we know. Dodging in and out of the lore...it's always the ones you least expect.
Sorry it's so long. Tried to edit. You all know I'm long winded.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 25, 2017 15:57:39 GMT
Like I say before, I would pretty much ignore everything in the Chant of Light as an explanation. The lore in there has been messed with by Drakon and his first Divine so who knows what was added in and what was left out.
Also I have pointed out on another thread how every society seems to have been affected by a sort of collective amnesia about their history. Since, according to Imshael (ME), it is quite within the capabilities of powerful spirits/demons to alter people's memories, who knows what has been going on over the previous millennia? Also whilst the comics are not meant to be absolutely canon, DG did introduce an artefact called the Magellan into his story whereby Aurelian Titus intended to alter the minds of people across Thedas and essentially change reality through the power of the Fade. This would seem to suggest that may be something like that had been done in the past. Maybe it was simply a side-effect of raising the Veil.
Note how Solas describes post Veil people as seeming like tranquil and when Karl switched back to being tranquil again after temporarily being restored, he seemed to lose his memory to some extent as he seemed to have no idea why Anders was looking at him horrified. Just because you have no emotions does not mean he should not have remembered what he just said to him. However, Pharamond says that being tranquil is like being in a dream so you are sort of detached from yourself. This could lie behind the apparent loss of memory and also partially explain what happened to the post Veil races.
Corypheus also seemed to have confused memories. When Hawke first released him he thought he was back at the time when he invaded the Golden City and was complaining to Dumat about it not being Golden. By the time of DAI he seems to have become more lucid but he may still not be recalling everything entirely accurately.
The Architect also seemed affected by some sort of amnesia since clearly he would appear to be another ancient Magister, since the Architect of the Works of Beauty was the high priest of Urthemiel and interestingly he was drawn to that Old God (if that is what the archdemon was) but he claimed not to have any memory or knowledge of why he was different from the other darkspawn. Corypheus is of course another word for "Conductor" as in the Conductor of the Choir of Silence, so in fact the Architect could remember enough of his previous identity to take his former title as his name but nothing more.
Whilst one of the codex seemed to suggest that one of the seven High Priests had been eaten by two of the others, nevertheless there is the possibility that there are four more out there in the Deep Roads, maybe wandering around unsure of who they are. The ones whose "god" has already risen as a archdemon may have gone mad and will never surface but there are still two dragons to be released and thus potentially two intelligent darkspawn Magisters that may still be active and even influencing things without people on the surface being aware of it. And that is without factoring in the whole Titan aspect.
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rapscallioness
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Jade Empire
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rapscallioness
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rapscallioness
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Jade Empire
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Post by rapscallioness on Sept 25, 2017 19:53:04 GMT
I didn't know about the Magellan. Interesting. And there does seem to be a collective amnesia. And somewhere in the back of the mind is this nagging feeling that something important has been lost, or forgotten. Something you've got to get back, but you can't quite put your finger on it.
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