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Post by linksocarina on Nov 14, 2017 14:20:27 GMT
That's just the polite way of calling the fans what they really are. Giant assholes. Let's be honest, sometimes people are and it really solves no problems in the end. That, and sentiments like this. "The fans" didn't harass anyone. I didn't harass anyone. Most people responding to that merely vented in an online forum about how shitty EA's business practices are. I mean come on, don't tell me that you don't see the intention here, a very long grind on one hand, and MT with P2W lootboxes just waiting as the other option?... I wish people would stop making excuses for that. As for a few idiots that apparently felt the need to threaten developers online (assuming that actually happened, of course), I'm not responsible for their behavior, and neither is everyone else criticizing EA. We should all be responsible for the culture we create. Anything short of that is enabling it to continue unchecked. So yes, you are just as complacent as I am on this. We can do better.
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Post by Pounce de León on Nov 14, 2017 15:18:00 GMT
"The fans" didn't harass anyone. I didn't harass anyone. Most people responding to that merely vented in an online forum about how shitty EA's business practices are. I mean come on, don't tell me that you don't see the intention here, a very long grind on one hand, and MT with P2W lootboxes just waiting as the other option?... I wish people would stop making excuses for that. As for a few idiots that apparently felt the need to threaten developers online (assuming that actually happened, of course), I'm not responsible for their behavior, and neither is everyone else criticizing EA. We should all be responsible for the culture we create. Anything short of that is enabling it to continue unchecked. So yes, you are just as complacent as I am on this. We can do better. Do you get paid to post such rubbish? I'm not responsible for twitter's and shitebooks abysmal practices and I'm certainly not responsible for crap someone posts on some page I don't even use.
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Post by linksocarina on Nov 14, 2017 15:33:59 GMT
We should all be responsible for the culture we create. Anything short of that is enabling it to continue unchecked. So yes, you are just as complacent as I am on this. We can do better. Do you get paid to post such rubbish? I'm not responsible for twitter's and shitebooks abysmal practices and I'm certainly not responsible for crap someone posts on some page I don't even use. So condemn it. It should be simple to seperate the worst of us within the culture in the end. The problem is we sometimes lionize it because of its conveniece to a cause we champion. Take this whole mess, criticize EA all you like for terrible practices if you see it that way but throw the blame on the assholes involved in it that take it too far. That shouldn't be something I need to say. It's hypocritical not to otherwise, if you ask me. Absolving yourself of the responsibility of their actions does nothing.
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Post by linksocarina on Nov 14, 2017 15:36:29 GMT
We should all be responsible for the culture we create. Anything short of that is enabling it to continue unchecked. So yes, you are just as complacent as I am on this. We can do better. Bullshit. I'm not "enabling" anything by criticizing EA, no more than EA are enabling it with their shitty practices.
I have no power to "enable" anyone deciding to act in a stupid manner.
Conversely, gaming journalists bending backwards to find excuses for the shitty practices of poor defenseless mega corporations like EA who make more than 600M$ a year already on digital transactions, are most certainly enabling said shitty practices, but not because of their excuses or their opinion but rather because of the disproportional size of their individual platforms compared to the rest of the unwashed masses. (in a few cases you could argue that their professionalism justifies said platform, but in many other cases I'd say that this excuse doesn't really work)
Which is rather disappointing if one expects them to be consumer advocates (not me).
Missed the point entirely. Not about criticizing EA at all. It's about criticizing the people that take it too far. EA will always get criticism, whether it is deserved or not for everything they do. But it's one thing to criticize, another to be a dick. Problem is most conflate one with the other as being acceptable behavior.
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Post by Pounce de León on Nov 14, 2017 15:38:02 GMT
Do you get paid to post such rubbish? I'm not responsible for twitter's and shitebooks abysmal practices and I'm certainly not responsible for crap someone posts on some page I don't even use. So condemn it. It should be simple to seperate the worst of us within the culture in the end. The problem is we sometimes lionize it because of its conveniece to a cause we champion. Take this whole mess, criticize EA all you like for terrible practices if you see it that way but throw the blame on the assholes involved in it that take it too far. That shouldn't be something I need to say. It's hypocritical not to otherwise, if you ask me. Absolving yourself of the responsibility of their actions does nothing. Social media abuse and shitcrates are completely different topics.
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Post by linksocarina on Nov 14, 2017 15:50:07 GMT
So condemn it. It should be simple to seperate the worst of us within the culture in the end. The problem is we sometimes lionize it because of its conveniece to a cause we champion. Take this whole mess, criticize EA all you like for terrible practices if you see it that way but throw the blame on the assholes involved in it that take it too far. That shouldn't be something I need to say. It's hypocritical not to otherwise, if you ask me. Absolving yourself of the responsibility of their actions does nothing. Social media abuse and shitcrates are completely different topics. And? I'm not even talking about loot crates in my criticism here.
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Post by linksocarina on Nov 14, 2017 15:58:16 GMT
Missed the point entirely. Not about criticizing EA at all. It's about criticizing the people that take it too far. EA will always get criticism, whether it is deserved or not for everything they do. But it's one thing to criticize, another to be a dick. Problem is most conflate one with the other as being acceptable behavior. "Being a dick", I wonder what that means? Does using psychological manipulations on your customers count? Or is that just marketing?
All I am doing here, is criticizing what I see as an unfair practice. All *you* are doing here, is demanding that people apologize for things they have no control over.
Someone (supposedly) acted like an asshole and "threatened" someone over the internet. Big fucking deal. Have a cookie. I am not responsible for said asshole just because I hold the same opinion in regards to EA's practices.
At this point this is like an automatic defense, there's some outrage over something, and someone on top starts crying that someone else supposedly threatened them over the internet in order to redirect the conversation and obfuscate the issue. I don't care. Someone "threatened" you? Go to the police. Certainly not my problem.
You're right, your not responsible because of your opinions on EA. In fact, your opinions on EA don't matter at all in this conversation because the issues EA has with their scheme is a seperate conversation, especially considering they are ultimately right in many respects. But you are also responsible for saying it's not your problem how our peers behave though. In fact it is all our problems in the end. Doesn't matter if it's EA on loot boxes, or Activision hiring that CSGO scammer to promote CoD, or CD Projekt Red protecting their Cyberpunk copyright, or any of that really. All of these issues are seperate to behavior, and that behavior dominates the culture. Trust me when I say calling the police on thinly veiled threats and all of that is tiring, ive seen it happen heavy to others and go beyond just a tweet or email. Perhaps we can be more vigilant in combating that, if we're willing to care.
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Post by Pounce de León on Nov 14, 2017 16:14:53 GMT
Social media abuse and shitcrates are completely different topics. And? I'm not even talking about loot crates in my criticism here. Well this is a thread about MTs, loot crates and gambling.
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Post by linksocarina on Nov 14, 2017 16:22:47 GMT
You're right, your not responsible because of your opinions on EA. In fact, your opinions on EA don't matter at all in this conversation because the issues EA has with their scheme is a seperate conversation, especially considering they are ultimately right in many respects. But you are also responsible for saying it's not your problem how our peers behave though. In fact it is all our problems in the end. Doesn't matter if it's EA on loot boxes, or Activision hiring that CSGO scammer to promote CoD, or CD Projekt Red protecting their Cyberpunk copyright, or any of that really. All of these issues are seperate to behavior, and that behavior dominates the culture. Trust me when I say calling the police on thinly veiled threats and all of that is tiring, ive seen it happen heavy to others and go beyond just a tweet or email. Perhaps we can be more vigilant in combating that, if we're willing to care. You are telling me what the discussion is about and what it isn't, and yet you are the one that came into a thread dealing with MT and loot-boxes to talk about someone being an asshole over the internet. Again, I have nothing to do with anyone that decides that threatening someone on the internet is a good idea. Nor do I support such behavior.
But just like I object to this behavior, I also object to "solutions" that involve enforcing some kind of political correctness police on the internet.
Obviously, my opinions on EA are extremely relevant, because I'm not the only one that thinks that, I'm merely one individual out of many individuals that EA's products (some of them) are aimed at.
"Ultimately right in many respects". I'm not even going to bother to ask, but regardless of the reason, there isn't a "right" side in a business related negotiation. A corporation like EA wants the all the money they can get their hands on, while the consumers want to pay as little as possible for the best possible product. And like with any negotiation, we meet somewhere in the middle, usually about where EA's analysts decide that the public won't be willing to pay anymore for said product.
And since EA doesn't really negotiates with its customer in anything resembling a formal manner, the "negotiation" happens in a different way. Meaning, that it seems that you are only going to be heard if you are capable of generating a level of noise that EA will consider a risk to their bottom line.
EA doesn't care about anything aside from their bottom-line, or rather, if they care about anything else, it's certainly not to a comparable degree, and everything else they do care tends to be connected in some way to their bottom-line. (like PR-enhancing moves, etc.)
Now, I don't begrudge them that, just like I don't begrudge a lion when it chases down its prey, it's simply their nature as a corporation. What I do think, is that as someone standing on their other side of the equation you need to look for your interests, because corporations aren't going to do it for you.
Unfortunately my job requires me to look out for the interests of others all the time. It's actually annoying, when you see the inmates running the asylum and try to steer it back to a semblance of order. Doubly so when your hobby suffers the same fate and you just want to scold everyone for being thick-headed on what is a fairly black and white issue. It's why most of the discussion regarding "negotiations between corporations" and the nature of what EA is doing here is kind of a moot point; that relationship is not a secret. Hence why we can switch out EA and criticize anyone in this situation, but be stuck in the same cycle constantly without much of a cultural change. We are able to look out for our best interests in a much more efficient way than what we normally see. Case in point, Reddit thread criticism...not a bad idea. Threats and ad-hominems... bad idea. One of those gives us a bad name though, and no one wants that...
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Post by linksocarina on Nov 14, 2017 16:25:37 GMT
And? I'm not even talking about loot crates in my criticism here. Well this is a thread about MTs, loot crates and gambling. I mean, I think we're all in agreement to an extent as to how loot crates and implementation are important and can be abusive. Where I take umbrage is how people don't hold each other accountable for other abuses. As I said, separate issue. If you are saying it's off topic...ok but then why the heck did you reply then in the first place?
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Post by Pounce de León on Nov 14, 2017 16:29:15 GMT
Well this is a thread about MTs, loot crates and gambling. I mean, I think we're all in agreement to an extent as to how loot crates and implementation are important and can be abusive. Where I take umbrage is how people don't hold each other accountable for other abuses. As I said, separate issue. If you are saying it's off topic...ok but then why the heck did you reply then in the first place? Because I disagree that your definition of gamer culture includes me and actually the majority of people playing games. You tried to piss on me - I responded.
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Post by linksocarina on Nov 14, 2017 16:52:09 GMT
Reddit thread criticism...not a bad idea. Threats and ad-hominems... bad idea. One of those gives us a bad name though, and no one wants that... I feel like a broken record here. I never threatened anyone over the internet, and I don't think I ever will. I only have control over my own actions. In addition, while the internet is full of idiots entirely capable of doing something stupid like issuing threats (which are obviously not credible, at least 99.9999999% of them), it's certainly very convenient from a PR perspective when something like this happens, because suddenly a corporate giant gets to play the victim (or conversely the hero protecting the victims). Again, this is a misunderstanding. I am not saying you personally threatened anyone, I am saying that the community by and large should be condemning those who do without much hesitation. If you feel we shouldn't, fair enough but then to me that is where the enabling of behavior comes in and I disagree with that because it leads to further complacency to outrage behavior. I would argue we should say something about our community and their behavior, regardless of the threats being credible or no in this instance or not.
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Post by linksocarina on Nov 14, 2017 16:56:05 GMT
I mean, I think we're all in agreement to an extent as to how loot crates and implementation are important and can be abusive. Where I take umbrage is how people don't hold each other accountable for other abuses. As I said, separate issue. If you are saying it's off topic...ok but then why the heck did you reply then in the first place? Because I disagree that your definition of gamer culture includes me and actually the majority of people playing games. You tried to piss on me - I responded. Ok, but that same culture includes me too, so it is, in effect, a criticism of my own behavior as well. Perhaps some personal self-reflection is needed?
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Post by Pounce de León on Nov 14, 2017 17:11:31 GMT
Because I disagree that your definition of gamer culture includes me and actually the majority of people playing games. You tried to piss on me - I responded. Ok, but that same culture includes me too, so it is, in effect, a criticism of my own behavior as well. Perhaps some personal self-reflection is needed? Deviant behaviour isn't culture. You may count yourself into that fictitious construct of yours, but don't wonder if people don't want to be part of your model.
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Post by linksocarina on Nov 14, 2017 17:28:29 GMT
Again, this is a misunderstanding. I am not saying you personally threatened anyone, I am saying that the community by and large should be condemning those who do without much hesitation. If you feel we shouldn't, fair enough but then to me that is where the enabling of behavior comes in and I disagree with that because it leads to further complacency to outrage behavior. I would argue we should say something about our community and their behavior, regardless of the threats being credible or no in this instance or not. If someone decides to threaten someone over the internet, I don't presume to take their agency away and claim that they did it because someone else influenced them, just like I wouldn't accept the excuses of an actual criminal claiming the same.
They did it because they decided to do it, and I have nothing to do with it because I never supported such behavior, nor did any other normal individual that happens to like video games.
But if you are a part of the group or culture that is involved with such behavior, how do you contend with perceptions of the culture at a whole? If you were an NRA member, for example, and you see NRA members out there threatening to shoot people and folks condemning the high gun-ownership or background checks or whatever issue it is, would you feel as a responsible member of that organization to try and change the outsider perceptions of the whole sub-culture?
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Post by linksocarina on Nov 14, 2017 17:31:03 GMT
Ok, but that same culture includes me too, so it is, in effect, a criticism of my own behavior as well. Perhaps some personal self-reflection is needed? Deviant behaviour isn't culture. You may count yourself into that fictitious construct of yours, but don't wonder if people don't want to be part of your model. Not on it's own, no, but it can be part of a culture if it is encouraged. I actually don't count myself as being a deviant in the community, but I would be a hypocrite if I didn't say that me not speaking out against it is what we should do. More often than not, people don't do that when it counts.
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Post by Pounce de León on Nov 14, 2017 19:21:35 GMT
Deviant behaviour isn't culture. You may count yourself into that fictitious construct of yours, but don't wonder if people don't want to be part of your model. Not on it's own, no, but it can be part of a culture if it is encouraged. I actually don't count myself as being a deviant in the community, but I would be a hypocrite if I didn't say that me not speaking out against it is what we should do. More often than not, people don't do that when it counts. You can't make emu fly just because you identified it as a bird and that's the problem with your construct right there.
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Post by SofaJockey on Nov 14, 2017 21:20:44 GMT
ok...
The advantage that Battlefront II retains through all this shitstorm is that 'it's Star Wars'. Many Star Wars gaming fans won't deny themselves their fix even if the game mechanic has been controversial, and many will forgive transgressions.
With a new IP in Anthem, however, if EA/BioWare make a bad first impression, or are too predatory, there's very little loyalty preventing people simply walking away from the prospect.
I think there's only one chance to get this right.
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 14, 2017 23:17:32 GMT
ok... The advantage that Battlefront II retains through all this shitstorm is that 'it's Star Wars'.Many Star Wars gaming fans won't deny themselves their fix even if the game mechanic has been controversial, and many will forgive transgressions. With a new IP in Anthem, however, if EA/BioWare make a bad first impression, or are too predatory, there's very little loyalty preventing people simply walking away from the prospect. I think there's only one chance to get this right. I agree and there is something people are forgetting that another predatory company is involved here too. Disney could be pushing for things beyond what EA would do, one article I read which I will take as a rumor was that EA just wanted only cosmetic options in the lootboxes, but Disney was demanding on certain elements such as cosmetic looks be canon only so very little room to make lootboxes work in a palatable way. With what I have been reading of Disney of late that doesn't sound impossible from barring a newspaper from movie press screenings because they reported on the conditions at Disney Land or the way they are treating movie theaters with the new demands on screens and increasing the percentage Disney takes.
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Post by majesticjazz on Nov 15, 2017 4:47:06 GMT
ok... The advantage that Battlefront II retains through all this shitstorm is that 'it's Star Wars'.Many Star Wars gaming fans won't deny themselves their fix even if the game mechanic has been controversial, and many will forgive transgressions. With a new IP in Anthem, however, if EA/BioWare make a bad first impression, or are too predatory, there's very little loyalty preventing people simply walking away from the prospect. I think there's only one chance to get this right. Exactly. Even if BF2 gets low review scores, the general public will buy this game for the simple fact that it is Star Wars and given the anticipation for The Last Jedi, Star Wars hype is at a high right now. But like you said, with Anthem, there won't be a big brand like Star Wars that they hope Anthem would attach onto. It would be judged on the merits of the game alone and not the brand it uses. EA will get away with BF2, but Anthem would be a different story....
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Post by Heimdall on Nov 15, 2017 11:23:59 GMT
ok... The advantage that Battlefront II retains through all this shitstorm is that 'it's Star Wars'.Many Star Wars gaming fans won't deny themselves their fix even if the game mechanic has been controversial, and many will forgive transgressions. With a new IP in Anthem, however, if EA/BioWare make a bad first impression, or are too predatory, there's very little loyalty preventing people simply walking away from the prospect. I think there's only one chance to get this right. Exactly. Even if BF2 gets low review scores, the general public will buy this game for the simple fact that it is Star Wars and given the anticipation for The Last Jedi, Star Wars hype is at a high right now. But like you said, with Anthem, there won't be a big brand like Star Wars that they hope Anthem would attach onto. It would be judged on the merits of the game alone and not the brand it uses. EA will get away with BF2, but Anthem would be a different story.... I just hope that EA/Bioware understand that... Then again, I remember hearing that EA originally wanted the MT in BF to be more focused on cosmetics rather than tying them to progression. But Disney tied their hands about keeping the iconic character appearances consistent. So... I don’t know what that means, but I’m not opposed to an Overwatch-like system with the lootboxes having no impact on gameplay at all.
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Post by SofaJockey on Nov 15, 2017 15:13:16 GMT
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Finished Dissertation long ago lol. Now happily employed :D
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Post by biggydx on Nov 15, 2017 16:21:06 GMT
I feel like the devs are the biggest casualties in this loot box mess. There generally seems to be an animosity - or indifference - to them on behalf of the teams, but they have to deal with complaints and criticisms of implementing such system; which they likely have no control over. I look at what happened with Dead Space 3 and Shadow of Mordor, and I can't help but think that these publishers essentially ruin the reputations of these companies.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by mmoblitz on Nov 15, 2017 17:22:48 GMT
Most publishers try to down play their monetisation of games. Biowares CFO doesn't seem to care and embraces it. He even boasts about finding more ways to keep milking the player base. Sounds like EA is moving entirely toward online mp action games. This really doesn't bode well for DA4 or anything other SP rpg we might have been hoping for from Bioware. I don't know if I really want to see what becomes of DA4, if they even release it.
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mmoblitz
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: mmoblitz
PSN: NotPC
Posts: 515 Likes: 590
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Post by mmoblitz on Nov 15, 2017 17:44:54 GMT
Even Wall Street has taken notice of the monetisation methods being used by EA in BF2. Read here..
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