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Post by shinary on Oct 22, 2017 22:47:07 GMT
Because they were aware that Sera would be a highly "despised" character by many. And I definitely see were people are coming from, as she is childish, prejudice and not very kind, but rather show selfishness disguised as kindness. I like your examples but I'm not sure I think Sera is actually selfish. She actually WANTS to help people. Really wants to help people. She gets involved with stuff for Red Jenny that benefits people other than herself. Pretty much all the time. The only thing she does that's of direct benefit to herself is join the Inquisition and, well, her motive is the same as that of everyone else there. Honestly, I'd rather have the choice to boot Vivienne than Sera. Vivienne is divisive with most other companions. She is, however, similar to Sera in one respect: she wants the status quo restored. My Inquisitor is on the same page as Cassandra and sees the Inquisition as a way not only to defeat Corypheus but also to perhaps make things better for everyone. First, I personally don't mind Sera. I understand why some don't like her, but I don't mind having her with me in my playthrough - and I really like her in Trespasser. I think the view of her being selfish depends on how you interpret her. If you talk to her enough it comes of as she is seeking revenge for people, because she wants revenge on her adoptive mother (who told her the baker hated her). Her helping is most commonly seeking revenge. It's not organizing food or clothing, taking a stand for equality or anything that "significant". She thinks it's fun to mess with nobles and get revenge, which often comes off as being the primary motivator for her. She even admits that it is not about changing things, but just about getting that revenge(mostly Solas and Varric banter). She says things like "I want the world back, so I can play", as in for her own amusement. Then there are her pranks because "people should seem like people", so you have her shaming your ambassador and messing with you commander in a way that only adds more stress - especially since Cullen is also struggling with lyrium deprivation. This is most likely to make him more of an hard-ass because he is frustrated. A stressed superior, be it Cullen or Josephine, is not a positive "seem like people" situation. Now, if this is due to poor writing or her character, who knows, but if helping people/cheering them up had been the goal, there would have been more uplifting ways of doing it. (though I don't think is is poorly written) She is prejudice against mages and Cole, because they do not fit her definition of "people". And I understand what she represents and all, but to me that made her seem very childish and cowardly. It actually wanted me to help her through it and overcome it, but you don't get the opportunity and even so I am not sure she would be interested. And then there is how she treats you if you are an elf. Now, I am all for not just believing in propaganda and it's fine that she doesn't believe in it. I have no issue with it, but she will more or less bully you for your beliefs (though I think this comes more from her being thoughtless than cruel). She has an almost very poor understanding of emotions and empathy in some way, which might just be a result of her being young, because I don't see her as cruel by default. I will say though, that it is obvious that she does care, but maybe she just doesn't know (or care) how to go about it in another way. And especially in Trespasser we see a growth in her, that I really like.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Oct 23, 2017 1:15:13 GMT
Then there are her pranks because "people should seem like people", so you have her shaming your ambassador and messing with you commander in a way that only adds more stress - especially since Cullen is also struggling with lyrium deprivation. This is most likely to make him more of an hard-ass because he is frustrated. A stressed superior, be it Cullen or Josephine, is not a positive "seem like people" situation. Now, if this is due to poor writing or her character, who knows, but if helping people/cheering them up had been the goal, there would have been more uplifting ways of doing it. (though I don't think is is poorly written) I think it's written as intended. Not everyone has the same interpretation and method of uplifting people. Some did it for definite good intentions but it back fire or never went the way they want it to go. For these, they would realise where they had gone wrong and make amends, thus correcting the mistakes and achieving the intended or better result. For others, their definition of uplifting is for their own gains, with the barest shades of good intention mixed in. Hence, once they got what they wanted, they're satisfied. The consequences of their uplifting of their targets matters not to them, they have achieved their personal satisfaction / objective. Sera, to me, is one of the latter.
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auronvigo
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 53 Likes: 54
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auronvigo
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by auronvigo on Oct 23, 2017 2:15:31 GMT
Tested it myself. It leads to her leaving. So it can't be written off as bad paraphrasing.
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Post by shinary on Oct 23, 2017 2:32:04 GMT
Then there are her pranks because "people should seem like people", so you have her shaming your ambassador and messing with you commander in a way that only adds more stress - especially since Cullen is also struggling with lyrium deprivation. This is most likely to make him more of an hard-ass because he is frustrated. A stressed superior, be it Cullen or Josephine, is not a positive "seem like people" situation. Now, if this is due to poor writing or her character, who knows, but if helping people/cheering them up had been the goal, there would have been more uplifting ways of doing it. (though I don't think is is poorly written) I think it's written as intended. Not everyone has the same interpretation and method of uplifting people. Some did it for definite good intentions but it back fire or never went the way they want it to go. For these, they would realise where they had gone wrong and make amends, thus correcting the mistakes and achieving the intended or better result. For others, their definition of uplifting is for their own gains, with the barest shades of good intention mixed in. Hence, once they got what they wanted, they're satisfied. The consequences of their uplifting of their targets matters not to them, they have achieved their personal satisfaction / objective. Sera, to me, is one of the latter. Completely agree
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 23, 2017 3:35:49 GMT
Then there are her pranks because "people should seem like people", so you have her shaming your ambassador and messing with you commander in a way that only adds more stress - especially since Cullen is also struggling with lyrium deprivation. This is most likely to make him more of an hard-ass because he is frustrated. A stressed superior, be it Cullen or Josephine, is not a positive "seem like people" situation. Now, if this is due to poor writing or her character, who knows, but if helping people/cheering them up had been the goal, there would have been more uplifting ways of doing it. (though I don't think is is poorly written) I think it's written as intended. Not everyone has the same interpretation and method of uplifting people. Some did it for definite good intentions but it back fire or never went the way they want it to go. For these, they would realise where they had gone wrong and make amends, thus correcting the mistakes and achieving the intended or better result. For others, their definition of uplifting is for their own gains, with the barest shades of good intention mixed in. Hence, once they got what they wanted, they're satisfied. The consequences of their uplifting of their targets matters not to them, they have achieved their personal satisfaction / objective. Sera, to me, is one of the latter. So she's a bully.
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Post by shinary on Oct 23, 2017 5:43:21 GMT
I think it's written as intended. Not everyone has the same interpretation and method of uplifting people. Some did it for definite good intentions but it back fire or never went the way they want it to go. For these, they would realise where they had gone wrong and make amends, thus correcting the mistakes and achieving the intended or better result. For others, their definition of uplifting is for their own gains, with the barest shades of good intention mixed in. Hence, once they got what they wanted, they're satisfied. The consequences of their uplifting of their targets matters not to them, they have achieved their personal satisfaction / objective. Sera, to me, is one of the latter. So she's a bully. Well, she is a person who bullies other people for bullying... Lol! I can't decide if that's good or bad
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 23, 2017 6:14:42 GMT
Well, she is a person who bullies other people for bullying... Lol! I can't decide if that's good or bad She also bullies people who haven't bullied others, so she is indiscriminate thus making it bad.
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Post by shinary on Oct 23, 2017 6:23:19 GMT
Well, she is a person who bullies other people for bullying... Lol! I can't decide if that's good or bad She also bullies people who haven't bullied others, so she is indiscriminate thus making it bad. True.
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gervaise21
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 23, 2017 9:34:17 GMT
I have to admit I thought the pranks were rather infantile and inappropriate no matter how much you want to appear "ordinary" to the people around Skyhold. Still, I went along with it my second run because first run my Inquisitor never even got their approval up high enough to be offered it and my second Inquisitor did feel in the need of some stress release and thought mucking about like a kid might be the way to do it. Then after it was finished, the next time I went to see Cullen had was in the throws of his lyrium withdrawal and it made me feel awful. It almost seemed like her stupid prank had pushed him over the edge (I knew this wasn't the case having already experienced the scene but my PC didn't).
That is the problem with a lot of Inquisition, there is a disconnect between one set of actions and another because they can occur in a random order but in the case of Cullen, whose struggles were on-going, I think the Inquisitor should at least have been able to object to playing pranks on him because it might be bad for him (not just as the commander of the army but as a person). Even if they didn't want to reveal the precise nature of his affliction, you should still have been able to say you felt it was a bad idea in a way that Sera could agree to rather than having to go along with her plan or end up on her bad side once again.
As for the character growth in Trespasser, I think that came about because they were aware of the amount of negative feedback about Sera that had her pegged as a selfish bully and so they went out of their way to correct that impression. Either they had wanted Sera to appear better than she did in the main game and realised they had failed to get the message across, or they did just want to show character growth so more people could like her.
It would have been better if that could have occurred a bit more towards the end of the main game. For example, the business with Lavellan over the Temple of Mythal, where she is utterly insensitive about the whole business. Now at this point you are likely already to know if you have lost your whole clan, so the fact that later in Trespasser she shows sympathy for this is really too late in the day, in my view, for it to redeem her. None of my Lavellans ever pushed the elfy thing on her and made her feel lesser because she didn't want to be a part of it but nevertheless it did mean something to them and I feel she never really respected that, certainly not in the main game. She never seemed to get that she was just as bad in her own way as the "elfy" people she criticised.
In order to be friends with Sera I did have to overlook things that really did not sit well with me and it was annoying that otherwise I was being labelled as not interested in supporting ordinary people just because she was their apparent spokesperson. My PCs constantly want to champion the ordinary people, hate being forced to play the Game which could be to their detriment or lie to them about the truth of the Herald but that is never acknowledged by anyone. The only person who is meant to be a champion of the "little" people is Sera and to be honest she really isn't. That is the image she likes to foster but the reality is the Red Jennies serve nobody but themselves.
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Post by Curious Crow on Oct 23, 2017 10:51:21 GMT
Even if they didn't want to reveal the precise nature of his affliction, you should still have been able to say you felt it was a bad idea in a way that Sera could agree to rather than having to go along with her plan or end up on her bad side once again. You can say no to messing with Cullen and just get a slight disapproval and the scene moves on to Josephine. You get a slight disapproval for each refusal and a slightly less jovial scene at the end, but it's not like she starts pinning your face on her door and covering it in arrows. And in more general post, I think the idea behind her pranks are similar as Josephine's line at the end party about how nice it is to worry about a small thing instead of the end of the world. The stress relief of being able to focus on and fix at least one small problem in your life as it crumbles down around you. So I get the idea even if I doubt the method, effectiveness and timing.
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Post by naughtynomad on Oct 23, 2017 14:01:04 GMT
They anticipated that Sera will be a very divisive character. And yet they didn't give the option to boot Vivienne.[brl] Vivienne's character was the least completed. They ran out of time for everything they intended with her.
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dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
Posts: 9,941 Likes: 17,670
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Post by dmc1001 on Oct 23, 2017 14:18:56 GMT
The thing is, I've already told Sera to stay true to herself to keep the Inquisition grounded. From that point, I should NEVER see the option to boot her again. Now, this is a three year old game and it's not changing but I just found it weird.
Honestly, I don't care that Sera doesn't like mages. There are lots of Templars around who likely feel the same (though I sided with the mages). Not everyone has to have the same feelings as everyone else. She does her job so what's the problem?
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 23, 2017 16:37:22 GMT
The thing is, I've already told Sera to stay true to herself to keep the Inquisition grounded. From that point, I should NEVER see the option to boot her again. Now, this is a three year old game and it's not changing but I just found it weird. Isn't this the same problem the homophobes have with gay flirt options? IF you don't want to use a dialogue option, don't select it. Why is its mere presence a problem?
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by shechinah on Oct 23, 2017 16:55:00 GMT
The thing is, I've already told Sera to stay true to herself to keep the Inquisition grounded. From that point, I should NEVER see the option to boot her again. Why? Honestly, I see removing it as being more detrimental than beneficial: from a roleplaying perspective, a character could change their mind or undergo character development. From a normal perspective, a player could change their mind about Sera and want her gone.
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dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
Posts: 9,941 Likes: 17,670
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by dmc1001 on Oct 23, 2017 20:15:11 GMT
The thing is, I've already told Sera to stay true to herself to keep the Inquisition grounded. From that point, I should NEVER see the option to boot her again. Now, this is a three year old game and it's not changing but I just found it weird. Isn't this the same problem the homophobes have with gay flirt options? IF you don't want to use a dialogue option, don't select it. Why is its mere presence a problem? Yes, but once people choose not to flirt with the same-sex romance partner, does the option come up again? Like Liam in MEA, it's pretty clear once the flirt attempt fails that nothing will come of it and there is nothing shown from that point on. In theory, I agree with what you're saying. In practice, I wondering why BioWare seems so intent on me booting Sera.
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dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
Posts: 9,941 Likes: 17,670
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Post by dmc1001 on Oct 23, 2017 20:20:28 GMT
The thing is, I've already told Sera to stay true to herself to keep the Inquisition grounded. From that point, I should NEVER see the option to boot her again. Why? Honestly, I see removing it as being more detrimental than beneficial: from a roleplaying perspective, a character could change their mind or undergo character development. From a normal perspective, a player could change their mind about Sera and want her gone. Sure, but then I should have the opportunity for a lot of characters: Iron Bull, Blackwall, Vivienne, Dorian and Cole, at the very least. Honestly, after Hawke is introduced, is Varric necessary? Cassandra would be hard to remove because she's an adviser, and also started the Inquisition. Solas is too central to the plot to remove. Otherwise, the rest should be available to be removed unless they want to say that you must have a minimum of three companions. My issue is less that Sera can be booted and more that she's the only one where this options comes up (beyond initially deciding not to recruit). It seems awkward and stands out, almost like the devs didn't really want her there and so keep giving the option to get rid of her. I'm not Sera's biggest fan by any means. I just find this peculiar.
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Feb 12, 2017 21:39:59 GMT
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delightdul
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Oct 23, 2017 20:42:24 GMT
Honestly, at some point there should have been an option to remove Solas as well. He also kills people right in front of you (three if fact) if you don't stop him and afterwards he acts like a condescending racist when you talk to him.
Really after Haven there should have been a way to remove any of the companions.
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dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
Posts: 9,941 Likes: 17,670
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Post by dmc1001 on Oct 23, 2017 22:24:42 GMT
Honestly, at some point there should have been an option to remove Solas as well. He also kills people right in front of you (three if fact) if you don't stop him and afterwards he acts like a condescending racist when you talk to him. Really after Haven there should have been a way to remove any of the companions. Varric seemed necessary to get Hawke and Hawke isn't available until Skyhold.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Oct 23, 2017 22:29:44 GMT
Honestly, at some point there should have been an option to remove Solas as well. He also kills people right in front of you (three if fact) if you don't stop him and afterwards he acts like a condescending racist when you talk to him. Really after Haven there should have been a way to remove any of the companions. Varric seemed necessary to get Hawke and Hawke isn't available until Skyhold. True, but afterwards I really don't think he adds much besides learning about where Red Lyrium came from.
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nvanfleet
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 273 Likes: 583
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by nvanfleet on Oct 23, 2017 23:42:08 GMT
You may not be able to get rid of Vivienne once you have her, but she is *really* easy to not recruit in the first place. Sera likewise; my first playthrough I ignored what seemed like random-ass sidequests after meeting the Mothers in Val Royeaux and never missed them.
Now of course Sera is basically always in my party and I love her, but even so.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Oct 24, 2017 2:13:53 GMT
You may not be able to get rid of Vivienne once you have her, but she is *really* easy to not recruit in the first place. IKR? Although there is an option missing. You should be able to tell Vivienne to turn the Marquis into a corpsicle, and then tell her to get lost, murderers have not place in the Inquisition! That would be excellent for my Hypocritical Inquisitor run.
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