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Post by garrusfan1 on Sept 27, 2016 21:25:05 GMT
Okay I am not saying it's equal I am asking what level of difference is there in the way women are treated compare to men. I know only men can be soldiers but women can be in the ben hassereth (I know I spelt it wrong) and one led a unit or section of it that was essentially search and destroy all magic which in terms of the QUN is like the most imporatant. But in total how do women and men compare in qunari society. Different roles but considered and treated equal in every other way or sexist.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 27, 2016 21:30:03 GMT
It appears that women and men are equal in importance, but fill separate roles in society. Even in jobs where both men and women work (like the Ben Hassrath), they have different specialties.
Everyone under the Qun, male or female, is considered to be parts of the same body: harm to one is harm to all.
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Post by Kantr on Sept 27, 2016 22:06:25 GMT
Don't you under the Qun though have to think of yourself as Male to be a Warrior?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 27, 2016 22:13:53 GMT
Other than the mandate that certain roles shall be filled only be certain sexes(or people who identify as that sex), the Qun is pretty good in terms of equality. One of the Salasari, the Arigena, is always female just like the Arishok is always male, while the final member the Ariqun can be either.
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Post by xerrai on Sept 27, 2016 22:16:47 GMT
I am not the most well versed in he Qun, but it is to my understanding that while the Qunari believe that certain jobs are better handled by certain a certain gender (ex. males are better at being warriors than females. Females almost make the entirety of the Tamaasrans), it is important to remember that they do not necessarily identify gender on account of a person's biological makeup.
Such individual are Aqun-Athlok? Aqun-gethlok? Something that basically acknowledges that they were born in a body of one gender while their "soul" is that of the other. It's why Bull says the Qunari may identify Cassandra as a male while she is within her armor--the job of a warrior is considered to be a 'male' job.
So they clearly believe that each sex has their own strengths and weaknesses. Whch is may you may see an uneven distribution of the sexes among certain jobs. But that does not mean they value one above the other. Each has a role to fulfil, and so long as each does it well, the Qunari don't really care to much on 'trivial' things like race or gender.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Sept 27, 2016 23:45:00 GMT
They don't seem to value one gender above another, but they do assign everyones role that they have to fulfill or be punished, and gender plays a part in that.
Your a male warrior who wants to be a baker? Suck to be you. A female baker who wants be a warrior? Tough. A transman who wants to do government administration? Either they're put in a male role they don't want or get it and spend the rest of their lives being treated as the wrong gender.
So no not really gender equal, instead of any gender being able to try for any role, they are assigned and if your desired role doesn't match your gender your either not getting it or getting misgendered.
And of course if you refuse your assigned role and don't manage to escape as Tal Vashoth you get to be "fixed", and if the brain washing won't work you get turned into mindless, will-less slave laborers.
The Quns pretty nasty really.
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Post by Tuchanka Love on Sept 28, 2016 2:16:40 GMT
What I understood is that for women to be soldiers they have to identify as male...otherwise they are stuck in other jobs for life. I don't know, I don't much care for the weird retcon the Qun went through. I prefered when they were the most intolerant race in Thedas. It made them more interesting. Making every culture in Thedas somehow open minded bugs me.
Though it would have been cool to make only IB more open minded.
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Post by melbella on Sept 28, 2016 3:23:08 GMT
I'm not sure how the Qun is portrayed as open-minded in Inquisition. I think Iron Bull is fooling himself or trying to convince himself it is, more than anything. As for the Qun - it's equal opportunity oppression/suppression/repression so, yay? It's interesting that we haven't seen any female saarebas yet though....
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Post by Catilina on Sept 28, 2016 3:33:56 GMT
This is the qun:
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Post by Catilina on Sept 28, 2016 3:43:56 GMT
And the problem is: The people are not trees.
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Post by Element Zero on Sept 28, 2016 3:47:59 GMT
It's tough to judge the Qun, in great detail. It seems safe to say many of us likely wouldn't find a change to life under the Qun to our liking.
I don't feel that the Qun has been consistently portrayed across the three games. If the devs have settled upon their vision, now, and want to start expounding upon it, we can finally start drawing educated conclusions. It's difficult to do so when they keep changing the rules.
I suspect we will be seeing a lot of the Qunari in the next chapter, and I trust the writers to not give us a black and white, "good vs bad" story of the Qun.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 28, 2016 3:57:35 GMT
It's tough to judge the Qun, in great detail. It seems safe to say many of us likely wouldn't find a change to life under the Qun to our liking. I don't feel that the Qun has been consistently portrayed across the three games. If the devs have settled upon their vision, now, and want to start expounding upon it, we can finally start drawing educated conclusions. It's difficult to do so when they keep changing the rules. I suspect we will be seeing a lot of the Qunari in the next chapter, and I trust the writers to not give us a black and white, "good vs bad" story of the Qun. And this is why I not try to judge in great detail.
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Post by Element Zero on Sept 28, 2016 4:37:39 GMT
It's tough to judge the Qun, in great detail. It seems safe to say many of us likely wouldn't find a change to life under the Qun to our liking. I don't feel that the Qun has been consistently portrayed across the three games. If the devs have settled upon their vision, now, and want to start expounding upon it, we can finally start drawing educated conclusions. It's difficult to do so when they keep changing the rules. I suspect we will be seeing a lot of the Qunari in the next chapter, and I trust the writers to not give us a black and white, "good vs bad" story of the Qun. And this is why I not try to judge in great detail. I know enough to say that the Qun isn't for me. Other than that, I think the writers need to settle on the specifics of the Qun. They've not always been consistent, after all. They're an interesting group, the Qunari. They pose a challenge in that I fully expect to disagree with their views and philosophy often. Yet, I still try to find a way to show them the respect they deserve, despite our differences. Sten and Arishok taught us how difficult it can be to negotiate through those barriers. It's becoming a bit easier as we learn more of the Qun. The uncommunicative approach of those two guys certainly made that learning process interesting. Masters of one word answers, they were. To directly answer the gender equality question, I don't believe we have enough information to make a fair assessment.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 28, 2016 4:52:45 GMT
I'm not sure how the Qun is portrayed as open-minded in Inquisition. I think Iron Bull is fooling himself or trying to convince himself it is, more than anything. As for the Qun - it's equal opportunity oppression/suppression/repression so, yay? It's interesting that we haven't seen any female saarebas yet though.... We have actually, albeit just in multiplayer. dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Hissera
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Post by Element Zero on Sept 28, 2016 5:13:40 GMT
They don't seem to value one gender above another, but they do assign everyones role that they have to fulfill or be punished, and gender plays a part in that. Your a male warrior who wants to be a baker? Suck to be you. A female baker who wants be a warrior? Tough. A transman who wants to do government administration? Either they're put in a male role they don't want or get it and spend the rest of their lives being treated as the wrong gender. So no not really gender equal, instead of any gender being able to try for any role, they are assigned and if your desired role doesn't match your gender your either not getting it or getting misgendered. And of course if you refuse your assigned role and don't manage to escape as Tal Vashoth you get to be "fixed", and if the brain washing won't work you get turned into mindless, will-less slave laborers. The Quns pretty nasty really. I preferred the Qun before they complicated it with modern, real world concerns. I'm not saying that the Qun couldn't be concerned about gender identities, but it seemed tacked on out of nowhere. It felt like a bit of a stealth retcon, though we technically didn't have enough info from DAO and DA2 for this to be a true retcon. Basically, it felt like the Qun got changed for the sake of Krem. I agree with Tuchanka Love ; I preferred the Qun when they were less politically correct and progressive in their oppression. The version of the Qun I learned from Bull just muddied the waters and made their philosophy sound even less sensible, if that's even possible.
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Post by Ieldra on Sept 28, 2016 8:01:22 GMT
And this is why I not try to judge in great detail. I do. While its philosophy as such doesn't necessarily result in the kind of oppression we know of, that turning dissidents into mindless slaves is a generally accepted practice is enough to condemn this particular realization of an ultra-collectivist society. I wonder if anyone else sees some similarity between the Qun and this: "...sees in the world not only those superficial, material aspects in which man appears as an individual, standing by himself, self-centered, subject to natural law, which instinctively urges him toward a life of selfish momentary pleasure; it sees not only the individual but the nation and the country; individuals and generations bound together by a moral law, with common traditions and a mission which suppressing the instinct for life closed in a brief circle of pleasure, builds up a higher life, founded on duty, a life free from the limitations of time and space, in which the individual, by self-sacrifice, the renunciation of self-interest, by death itself, can achieve that purely spiritual existence in which his value as a man consists." May sound a bit uncomfortable, but not really evil, right? Just as the Qun sounds from its religious texts, I suspect. However, the source is... ...."The Doctrine of Fascism" by Benito Mussolini. The first sentence starts with "Fascism", but substitute "The Qun" and it still works, if you disregard some modern expressions that wouldn't exist on Thedas. It gets more to the point in the following chapters. The individual counts for nothing, the society/state/community for all, just like in the Qun. At the least, the Qun is a severely unbalanced, extremist philosophy, and in its current implementation I condemn it for the practices by which it suppresses individuals and its warlike expansionism. That there is little to no gender inequality doesn't make it any better. Edit: Note that Tevinter is an example of the other extreme: might makes right applied to an individualistic perspective. There is (effectively) nothing that curbs the power of a Tevinter mage except a more powerful one, and even in non-mage society my impression is that individual ambition runs unchecked and right over others where people feel they can get away with it. It is no wonder that for some, life under the Qun appears more bearable.
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Post by opuspace on Sept 28, 2016 12:08:51 GMT
And the problem is: The people are not trees. Of course not! Trees don't betray the Qun! That's why trees don't need to be conquered!
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Post by opuspace on Sept 28, 2016 12:14:46 GMT
What I understood is that for women to be soldiers they have to identify as male...otherwise they are stuck in other jobs for life. I don't know, I don't much care for the weird retcon the Qun went through. I prefered when they were the most intolerant race in Thedas. It made them more interesting. Making every culture in Thedas somehow open minded bugs me. Though it would have been cool to make only IB more open minded. I don't get the sense that the Qun is being politically correct, I think they're just being extremely compartmentalized in their thinking. They're not letting a woman fulfill a male role because they are being sensitive to her desires, it's more she is most useful in this role, therefore she is really a male because only males fulfill that role best. They sound like they're going to make that round peg fit in a square hole by ignoring the trivial details like sex if the talent is enough.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 28, 2016 19:03:02 GMT
The thing is you still can't identify as a woman and do a male role as defined by the Qun. This if fine if you are genuinely transgender but from what people say Bull states about Cassandra, under the Qun she would be defined as a man or would have to relinquish her role as a soldier. So how does that work? Cassandra does not see herself as a man. In fact she doesn't even see herself as a woman doing a man's job. So in the Qun, she would either have to suppress her true gender or be assigned to a "female" role.
Also they are not really tolerant of transgender. It only works with Krem because Krem wants to be a soldier. What if a transgender male wanted to be a Tamassran or some other role which the Qun considers a female role? Presumably they would then have to stick to their birth gender and live a lie or be put into a role which they did not want.
So in a way, introducing the idea of the Aqun-Athlok has made the whole Qun philosophy even more messed up and intolerant than it was before.
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Post by Wulfram on Sept 28, 2016 19:37:19 GMT
They could probably stick Cassandra as a Ben-Hassrath. And similarly if they found a man who was really good at administration I wouldn't be surprised if there are logistics type roles in the army for men.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 28, 2016 21:03:55 GMT
And this is why I not try to judge in great detail. I do. While its philosophy as such doesn't necessarily result in the kind of oppression we know of, that turning dissidents into mindless slaves is a generally accepted practice is enough to condemn this particular realization of an ultra-collectivist society. I wonder if anyone else sees some similarity between the Qun and this: "...sees in the world not only those superficial, material aspects in which man appears as an individual, standing by himself, self-centered, subject to natural law, which instinctively urges him toward a life of selfish momentary pleasure; it sees not only the individual but the nation and the country; individuals and generations bound together by a moral law, with common traditions and a mission which suppressing the instinct for life closed in a brief circle of pleasure, builds up a higher life, founded on duty, a life free from the limitations of time and space, in which the individual, by self-sacrifice, the renunciation of self-interest, by death itself, can achieve that purely spiritual existence in which his value as a man consists." May sound a bit uncomfortable, but not really evil, right? Just as the Qun sounds from its religious texts, I suspect. However, the source is... ...."The Doctrine of Fascism" by Benito Mussolini. The first sentence starts with "Fascism", but substitute "The Qun" and it still works, if you disregard some modern expressions that wouldn't exist on Thedas. It gets more to the point in the following chapters. The individual counts for nothing, the society/state/community for all, just like in the Qun. At the least, the Qun is a severely unbalanced, extremist philosophy, and in its current implementation I condemn it for the practices by which it suppresses individuals and its warlike expansionism. That there is little to no gender inequality doesn't make it any better. Edit: Note that Tevinter is an example of the other extreme: might makes right applied to an individualistic perspective. There is (effectively) nothing that curbs the power of a Tevinter mage except a more powerful one, and even in non-mage society my impression is that individual ambition runs unchecked and right over others where people feel they can get away with it. It is no wonder that for some, life under the Qun appears more bearable. The thing is, we judge the Qun from a human perspective, and the qunari, while humanoid in appearance are not human. (At least at first. As of DAI, they seem to have been reduced to being big humans who say funny words and who or might or have horns.) The Qunari of DAO and DA2 fascinated me. I mean, I think the Qun would be a terrible way to live, but I found myself wondering how it came about. Why do they permit themselves to be ruled this way, and why there aren't more Tal'Vashoth. Where does this "certainty" come from? Their fear of magic and anything else they see as chaotic? Does this have anything to do with their precursor people the kossith? Even DAI has hints of deeper things: a possible connection to dragons. The revelation that some Tal'Vashoth revert to savagery outside the Qun (and IB seems to draw a distinction between the two groups). It makes the qunari seem more alien. Like they perceive the world on a fundamentally different level. But then again, maybe not.
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Post by Ieldra on Sept 28, 2016 21:38:34 GMT
I do. While its philosophy as such doesn't necessarily result in the kind of oppression we know of, that turning dissidents into mindless slaves is a generally accepted practice is enough to condemn this particular realization of an ultra-collectivist society. I wonder if anyone else sees some similarity between the Qun and this: "...sees in the world not only those superficial, material aspects in which man appears as an individual, standing by himself, self-centered, subject to natural law, which instinctively urges him toward a life of selfish momentary pleasure; it sees not only the individual but the nation and the country; individuals and generations bound together by a moral law, with common traditions and a mission which suppressing the instinct for life closed in a brief circle of pleasure, builds up a higher life, founded on duty, a life free from the limitations of time and space, in which the individual, by self-sacrifice, the renunciation of self-interest, by death itself, can achieve that purely spiritual existence in which his value as a man consists." May sound a bit uncomfortable, but not really evil, right? Just as the Qun sounds from its religious texts, I suspect. However, the source is... ...."The Doctrine of Fascism" by Benito Mussolini. The first sentence starts with "Fascism", but substitute "The Qun" and it still works, if you disregard some modern expressions that wouldn't exist on Thedas. It gets more to the point in the following chapters. The individual counts for nothing, the society/state/community for all, just like in the Qun. At the least, the Qun is a severely unbalanced, extremist philosophy, and in its current implementation I condemn it for the practices by which it suppresses individuals and its warlike expansionism. That there is little to no gender inequality doesn't make it any better. Edit: Note that Tevinter is an example of the other extreme: might makes right applied to an individualistic perspective. There is (effectively) nothing that curbs the power of a Tevinter mage except a more powerful one, and even in non-mage society my impression is that individual ambition runs unchecked and right over others where people feel they can get away with it. It is no wonder that for some, life under the Qun appears more bearable. The thing is, we judge the Qun from a human perspective, and the qunari, while humanoid in appearance are not human. Actually, very collectivist communities exist among humans on Earth as well, and some people like it there. I'm not judging the philosophy of the Qun - although I don't like it at all - but the way they put it in practice. If the qunari just exiled their dissidents and didn't want to conquer for world for the Qun I would still fight them politically and culturally, but I'd have little case for condemnation. Not before I knew more about how it all came about, at least. Also, I agree with you that the Qun is fascinating, exactly because it feels so alien. I can see that and appreciate its existence in this fictional world, so that we can explore it, but that doesn't mean I can't dislike it.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 28, 2016 21:43:17 GMT
The thing is, we judge the Qun from a human perspective, and the qunari, while humanoid in appearance are not human. Actually, very collectivist communities exist among humans on Earth as well, and some people like it there. I'm not judging the philosophy of the Qun - although I don't like it at all - but the way they put it in practice. If the qunari just exiled their dissidents and didn't want to conquer for world for the Qun I would still fight them politically and culturally, but I'd have little case for condemnation. Not before I knew more about how it all came about, at least. Also, I agree with you that the Qun is fascinating, exactly because it feels so alien. I can see that and appreciate its existence in this fictional world, so that we can explore it, but that doesn't mean I can't dislike it. Sure collectivist communities exist, but not to the degree of the Qunari. They go far beyond any human society I am aware of. They consider themselves to be parts of a single organism. And of course, like many creatures, the Qun is a predator. You can admire it, even as you know you have to keep it from devouring you
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