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Post by kenshen19 on Oct 26, 2017 17:08:38 GMT
So I just started playing this game again after a long time (only finished it twice before) and I just came across something I totally missed before and I hope someone can answer a few questions for me. I sided with the mages so later in the game I did a quest for Cassandra to find out what happened to the seekers. Anyways after finishing that quest I go to talk to her and we find out 2 very important things, things I don't remember being mentioned the other times I played.
The revelation about the right of tranquility is huge!! and I am surprised this doesn't come up in game especially if i side with the mages. Thing is Cassandra seems to flip flop on this subject that it is a thing and then it is only a theory? I didn't understand that since the next thing she says is how a seeker (including herself) were "trained". This part completely lost me, for those that know what shes says in this scene was she a mage who was made tranquil and then was conditioned through specific meditation into the seeker we know today? That sounds like some Jason Borne level shit right there if I followed that part correctly. Also does this knowledge play a bigger part in the game if one sides with the templars? I only tried that once and I got so frustrated with the siding with templars quest I reloaded and went mage.
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Post by phoray on Oct 26, 2017 17:29:21 GMT
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Post by nvanfleet on Oct 26, 2017 18:31:00 GMT
It also explains why Anders' buddy in DA2 felt the effects of being close, though it's a little odd that close contact with a Spirit of Justice would have a similar (if not lasting) effect. I'm only partway through Asunder, and *utterly* uncertain of the timeline here, but were any of the Tranquil drawn to Wynne for that same reason? She was a Faith Abomination, after all, so it should have been even more pronounced with her.
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Post by thats1evildude on Oct 26, 2017 18:33:33 GMT
Phoray's codex basically explains it better than I could.
To be absolutely clear, Cassandra was not a mage. Anyone can be made Tranquil; however, it has an added effect on mages, namely cutting them off from their magic.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 26, 2017 18:51:26 GMT
The reason Wynne's spirit didn't affect the tranquil around her is for the most part it was staying in the background. It was when Justice emerged in response to the attack by the Templars that Karl "felt" him. You will recall that when this happens that Anders' eyes glow, indicating the spirit has come to the fore of his consciousness where it can also touch the minds of those close to him.
What is stranger about the Seeker rite is that they speak of "branding the mind" with lyrium but there is nothing visible to show this, unless the spirit of faith automatically "heals" the mark when it bonds with them. It would also seem to me that effectively the Seeker is in fact a non-mage abomination, if the definition of such is someone whose mind is linked with a spirit. It cannot simply be a one off encounter or why would they have the powers they do? Surely it is the spirit that protects their mind from intrusion and enables them to do other things like setting the lyrium aflame in the blood of a mage. Either that or apparently the Seekers have discovered the means of effectively turning a non-mage into a mage since setting the lyrium aflame is very similar to the blood mage spell Blood Wound where the mage boils the blood in their victim.
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Post by Sah291 on Oct 27, 2017 15:05:00 GMT
What is stranger about the Seeker rite is that they speak of "branding the mind" with lyrium but there is nothing visible to show this, unless the spirit of faith automatically "heals" the mark when it bonds with them. It would also seem to me that effectively the Seeker is in fact a non-mage abomination, if the definition of such is someone whose mind is linked with a spirit. It cannot simply be a one off encounter or why would they have the powers they do? You mean the lyrium brand on the forehead that Tranquil mages get? Possibly. I imagine since it's a customary part of the ritual to reverse it and not make them a permanent Tranquil, they don't actually create the physical mark... which might be a tattoo of some kind, like the ones Fenris wears or the blood writing the elves use. I suspect the Valaslin works on the same principle, just with blood instead of lyrium, and it's meant to reinforce the spell and keep it active. Let's be real, Thedas is crawling with spirits and demons, so it must take a bit more effort to break the effect, and not just a passing encounter with a spirit. Justice was pretty powerful and more active in the world, but the effect was only short lived, even then. It's not clear to me whether the Seekers are actually bonding with a spirit or not, or just using them to activate their powers. They believe their abilities come from the Maker, so they don't call it magic....Solas seemed skeptical of that when Cassandra talked about it, so maybe from his perspective, he considers it just magic after all. Well, I do anyway. Abomination is a loaded word, I'm sure the Seekers don't call their own spirit work an "abomination." And they wouldn't call what they do magic, even if it technically is.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 27, 2017 15:19:01 GMT
It also explains why Anders' buddy in DA2 felt the effects of being close, though it's a little odd that close contact with a Spirit of Justice would have a similar (if not lasting) effect. I'm only partway through Asunder, and *utterly* uncertain of the timeline here, but were any of the Tranquil drawn to Wynne for that same reason? She was a Faith Abomination, after all, so it should have been even more pronounced with her. I suppose, not similar, rather the same. A spirit is a spirit. The difference is Anders, I think, that fact, that Justice was bound to Anders' body.
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Post by nvanfleet on Oct 27, 2017 15:49:43 GMT
Mmmm, thinking on it I accede your point. Any spirit touching the mind of someone would at least temporarily restore their connection to the Fade if for no other reason that to keep the spirit itself intact. And going off of what gervaise wrote, Anders/Justice was.... pretty fast and loose with the showiness as he/they descended further into obsession and paranoia - and Wynne was pretty quiet and chill and downright secretive about her whole situation (only up to chapter 3 in Asunder so far, audiobooking it)
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Post by Catilina on Oct 27, 2017 16:41:40 GMT
Mmmm, thinking on it I accede your point. Any spirit touching the mind of someone would at least temporarily restore their connection to the Fade if for no other reason that to keep the spirit itself intact. And going off of what gervaise wrote, Anders/Justice was.... pretty fast and loose with the showiness as he/they descended further into obsession and paranoia - and Wynne was pretty quiet and chill and downright secretive about her whole situation (only up to chapter 3 in Asunder so far, audiobooking it) Yes, any spirit able to restore the connection to the Fade, I suppose. Justice's touch was not direct, (I imagine Anders body as a veil/wall, depends on that Justice's active or not), and not directed to Karl. When Anders went closer to Karl, Justice already retired. ___ Anders was not really paranoid, at least his "paranoia" was supported by the truth: with Meredith's paranoia. This was not Justice, this was the fact, that Meredith eliminated the Mage Underground and Tranquilized Mages "randomly" "due of a love letter", or less "sins" (Cullen, in Inquisition). His obsession to his cause can be related to Justice: in fact, this was their goal with merging. Justice doesn't let him forget his cause or let himself to get distracted. The love relationship ( "obsession with you") is more difficult, but I can explain similarily: In one hand, this love is a distraction, in another hand, Justice wants to experience the love relationship, because of Kristof's memory-fragments – and this is a danger zone to Justice: a desire. Anders–Justice banter in Awakening: Anders: Are you saying that you could become a demon, Justice? Justice: I said no such thing. Anders: You said that demons were spirits perverted by their desires. Justice: I have no such desires. Anders: You must have some desires... Justice: I have none! Desist your questions! So, yes, Justice damaged, but not necessarily twisted. It depends on the interpretation, but in fact, he was never a kind spirit, as for example the Spirit of Compassion – and never forget: Cole in his own way was cruel, in the eyes of the mortal men, for example when he wanted to kill that suffering man, because he just saw the suffer, not the possible chances. Wynne and her Spirit of Faith lived in greater harmony: Wynne had real faith and she did not incline to be a zealot. (I didn't read the Asunder, so I don't know, she lost her faith ever.)
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 27, 2017 18:04:32 GMT
There are a couple of odd things that happen in Asunder: The first is when Wynne is confronted by the demon possessing Pharamond in the Fade. Initially Wynne seems cowed by it and seems to be losing faith, then the spirit comes to the fore and she is strengthened by it, going on to destroy the demon.
The other is later when Wynne is angry at the turn of events with the Templars and threat to her son and she appears to become corrupted by her emotions and a malign staff that was apparently given to her by the Hero of Ferelden. Evangeline challenges her use of it, destroys the staff and then Wynne attacks her. In the end it is only when Cole threatens Wynne's life by holding a dagger to her throat that she calms down and accepts Evangeline's rebuke. Apparently her spirit was not involved in this at all. Which makes me wonder about spirits of faith. Does it not matter what sort of faith it is so long as you are committed to it? So does Lord Seeker Lucius still have his powers even though he has renounced his faith in the Chantry version of Andrastrianism in favour of the apocalyptic vision of the Promissors? Could an Old God worshipper acquire the same powers so long as they had sufficient faith?
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Post by nvanfleet on Oct 27, 2017 18:20:42 GMT
Mmm, I don't remember about the fight with the Lord Seeker and Cassandra well enough to remember if he was using Seeker-tree powers. I wouldn't be surprised if Spirits of Faith are more tied to the emotion itself rather than a *specific* faith, so the only way to corrupt a Seeker really would be to subvert and twist that sense of belief. I do think, however, that maybe the form the powers took would be relative to what your specific beliefs were upon *initial* bonding with the spirit.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 27, 2017 18:27:52 GMT
There are a couple of odd things that happen in Asunder: The first is when Wynne is confronted by the demon possessing Pharamond in the Fade. Initially Wynne seems cowed by it and seems to be losing faith, then the spirit comes to the fore and she is strengthened by it, going on to destroy the demon.
The other is later when Wynne is angry at the turn of events with the Templars and threat to her son and she appears to become corrupted by her emotions and a malign staff that was apparently given to her by the Hero of Ferelden. Evangeline challenges her use of it, destroys the staff and then Wynne attacks her. In the end it is only when Cole threatens Wynne's life by holding a dagger to her throat that she calms down and accepts Evangeline's rebuke. Apparently her spirit was not involved in this at all. Which makes me wonder about spirits of faith. Does it not matter what sort of faith it is so long as you are committed to it? So does Lord Seeker Lucius still have his powers even though he has renounced his faith in the Chantry version of Andrastrianism in favour of the apocalyptic vision of the Promissors? Could an Old God worshipper acquire the same powers so long as they had sufficient faith? I suppose I must read the Asunder, this is very interesting.
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Post by nvanfleet on Oct 27, 2017 18:46:24 GMT
There are a couple of odd things that happen in Asunder: The first is when Wynne is confronted by the demon possessing Pharamond in the Fade. Initially Wynne seems cowed by it and seems to be losing faith, then the spirit comes to the fore and she is strengthened by it, going on to destroy the demon.
The other is later when Wynne is angry at the turn of events with the Templars and threat to her son and she appears to become corrupted by her emotions and a malign staff that was apparently given to her by the Hero of Ferelden. Evangeline challenges her use of it, destroys the staff and then Wynne attacks her. In the end it is only when Cole threatens Wynne's life by holding a dagger to her throat that she calms down and accepts Evangeline's rebuke. Apparently her spirit was not involved in this at all. Which makes me wonder about spirits of faith. Does it not matter what sort of faith it is so long as you are committed to it? So does Lord Seeker Lucius still have his powers even though he has renounced his faith in the Chantry version of Andrastrianism in favour of the apocalyptic vision of the Promissors? Could an Old God worshipper acquire the same powers so long as they had sufficient faith? I suppose I must read the Asunder, this is very interesting. I'm listening to it, I got it from my library on audio - it's really good so far and I'm only partway into chapter 4.
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Post by Sah291 on Oct 27, 2017 19:28:51 GMT
Hmm, I don't know, but I would think faith spirits were like any other, they could have a darker or more extreme side to them. Justice had Vengeance, and it's been speculated Faith is possibly Pride or Sloth in its corrupted form.
When Wynne is arguing with Fiona in Asunder right before the rebellion, she shows a darker side of Faith, and is very stubborn. It's been ages since I read Asunder but I thougut it was implied that corrupted staff Wynne had was a blood magic staff?
I don't think it matters what kind of faith, no, Justice was just as driven about Darkspawn as he was Mages. But likey the person they are bonded to would influence them to a specific cause.
It's interesting that the Seekers believe Tranquility is necessary to summon a Faith Spirit though, in the first place. This is done to ensure they really do meet a pure Faith Spirit, and not a Pride demon, or something else perhaps?
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Post by nvanfleet on Oct 27, 2017 19:44:13 GMT
I'd think Desire Demons would be more likely without Tranquility, especially since the need/desire in the 'Seeking' of Truth would be particularly powerful. Ann all-you-can-eat buffet of Desire, if you will. But depending on the Seeker, Pride or Greed could be just as tempted.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 27, 2017 19:57:59 GMT
Hmm, I don't know, but I would think faith spirits were like any other, they could have a darker or more extreme side to them. Justice had Vengeance, and it's been speculated Faith is possibly Pride or Sloth in its corrupted form. When Wynne is arguing with Fiona in Asunder right before the rebellion, she shows a darker side of Faith, and is very stubborn. It's been ages since I read Asunder but I thougut it was implied that corrupted staff Wynne had was a blood magic staff? I don't think it matters what kind of faith, no, Justice was just as driven about Darkspawn as he was Mages. But likey the person they are bonded to would influence them to a specific cause. It's interesting that the Seekers believe Tranquility is necessary to summon a Faith Spirit though, in the first place. This is done to ensure they really do meet a pure Faith Spirit, and not a Pride demon, or something else perhaps?I suppose, yes. Without any desire, the ritual perhaps safer (ofc, not for the experimental subject).
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Post by Sah291 on Oct 27, 2017 20:07:40 GMT
True, maybe it's just assurance they don't meet any demon forms at all.. Being Tranquil erases one of any sense of desire or greed, so they are doing it purposefully to become as pure as possible, to attract a pure spirit.
Except spirits aren't supposed to be able to see the Tranquil, so we are probably missing something.
Pride is supposed to be one of the most powerful in the hierarchy of demons, if not the most powerful, and then Desire is up there as well. So Faith spirits are probably among the most powerful, on the spirit side, if they correspond to Pride.
Wait, I got it...faith in the unseen. It could be that faith is the first emotion and first spirit a Tranquil could potentially see? But only if they were pure enough. We know it's possible to fail the Seeker ritual, as apparently the first mage they let into their order did. I guess that mage just remained Tranquil then and unable to use magic. That could have led to a bias against mages, if they thought they were more prone to failure or attracting demons.
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Post by nvanfleet on Oct 27, 2017 20:36:19 GMT
Unfortunately, there seems precious little that *couldn't* be used as an excuse for bias against Mages. It was honestly one of the strongest parts of DA2 for me -- yes, Meredith and her Templars started out bad and got even worse, but with the way the Mages under their care *behaved*... it sure *felt* justified, looking at it from a non-mage perspective. Blood Mages and Blood Magic everywhere.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 27, 2017 20:58:32 GMT
True, maybe it's just assurance they don't meet any demon forms at all.. Being Tranquil erases one of any sense of desire or greed, so they are doing it purposefully to become as pure as possible, to attract a pure spirit. Except spirits aren't supposed to be able to see the Tranquil, so we are probably missing something. Pride is supposed to be one of the most powerful in the hierarchy of demons, if not the most powerful, and then Desire is up there as well. So Faith spirits are probably among the most powerful, on the spirit side, if they correspond to Pride. Wait, I got it...faith in the unseen. It could be that faith is the first emotion and first spirit a Tranquil could potentially see? But only if they were pure enough. We know it's possible to fail the Seeker ritual, as apparently the first mage they let into their order did. I guess that mage just remained Tranquil then and unable to use magic. That could have led to a bias against mages, if they thought they were more prone to failure or attracting demons. They don't need to directly attracted by the Tranquil, someone can call them, or? Wilmod possessed because the blood mages summoned the demon. Kitty was possessed by a desire demon, and I don't think, that a cat would be very attractive for them. Depends on what, how strong is a spirit/demon? If the "popularity" is the reason, then the Rage and the Sloth could be very strong. True, the sloth doesn't have any urge to do anything to possess anyone but wait for someone search them in the Fade (Feynriel), and ask someone to help.
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Post by nvanfleet on Oct 27, 2017 21:08:31 GMT
Spirits can posses corpses, so who knows what exactly creates the proper condition or target? I imagine as long as something provides enough of whatever it is the spirit wants or needs, they can possess it.
And from my understanding, Rage/Wrath demons aren't very strong compared to other demons-- they're ubiquitous though, mostly because Anger seems to be the most prevalent emotion when a mage goes so far as to deliberately summon a demon in the first place so that's what whatever spirit was at hand could be twisted into (if you take the Solas view of 'Every Demon is a Spirit who's gone wrong).
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Post by Catilina on Oct 27, 2017 21:52:01 GMT
Unfortunately, there seems precious little that *couldn't* be used as an excuse for bias against Mages. It was honestly one of the strongest parts of DA2 for me -- yes, Meredith and her Templars started out bad and got even worse, but with the way the Mages under their care *behaved*... it sure *felt* justified, looking at it from a non-mage perspective. Blood Mages and Blood Magic everywhere. If the blood mages wouldn't so idiots, Hawke doesn't have any reason to support the Templars. They needed a very strong reason to show that inherently evil system somehow acceptable, especially the Kirkwall Circle. On the other hand: If we see the circumstances: almost every mage has gone mad inside the Circle, and/or by the Circle. Olivia: gone mad by the persecution (and probably wasn't too educated because Thrask consider the Circle unacceptable – for his daughter, ofc.) Huon: gone mad inside the Circle, at home, with his wife, he was totally sober. Evelina: gone mad by the persecution and the hopelessness. Orsino: gone mad inside the Circle, by the hopelessness. And let's see the evil ones: Tarohne: clearly evil, but her rage and actions directed only towards the Templars. Decimus: tried to protect his own fellows. Grace: extremely vengeful. Just as Sebastian. True, Sebastian not a mage. Quentin: escaped Starkhaven Mage. He was inside the Circle when his wife died? And he's clearly a madman, a serial killer. And never forget: Hawke not a simple non-mage, his/her father, sister is an apostate. Hawke never unbiased. Even Carver, if become Warden, wonder, if Hawke supports the Templars (in fact he's is rather upset). Hawke's not a Cousland. Of course this just a very pro-mage opinion. The crazy blood mages are very dangerous, but supporting a dangerous madwoman with an army seems wrong. I did it but felt uncomfortable.
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Post by ellehaym on Oct 27, 2017 21:54:01 GMT
I wonder if being locked up (I think?) and with only the faith in the Maker/ cause is what initially attracts the spirit and the would-be seeker is only tranquil for a very short amount of time until they are touched by that spirit that wants to help them?
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Post by Sifr on Oct 27, 2017 22:18:25 GMT
I think Asunder suggested that for a spirit to "touch the mind" of someone to break Tranquility, that requires active possession to take place. Pharamond needed to be possessed by a demon before he was cured, while the Seekers are implied to have had their Tranquility broken by being bonded with a Spirit of Faith, turning them into (unaware) benign abominations.
(Cole even refers to Cassandra several times as "Faith" while referring to himself as "Compassion" in the same sentence, seemingly confirming that she may have a Spirit dwelling within her. Would further explain why Wynne claimed that Spirits of Faith are rare, because they're actually being bogarted by the Seekers)
As said above, Karl only recovered temporarily due to exposure to Justice manifesting. Once Justice subsided and Anders took back control, the effect quickly wore off and Karl returned to his state of Tranquility. If Karl had been possessed (even temporarily), it would have cured him permanently as Pharamond was.
Actually it makes me wonder if Pharamond figured the cure from studying various reports of Tranquil mages regaining their senses near Spirits/Demons or in places where the Veil is thin or torn.
This was something I wish they'd explored more in Inquisition, whether the Breach or proximity to the Rifts could have "restored" Tranquil individuals temporarily as a side-effect. Could have provided some great moral quandaries, whether or not to close a Rift and doom a group of "cured" Tranquil camped nearby to a fate worse than death?
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nvanfleet
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Post by nvanfleet on Oct 27, 2017 22:22:38 GMT
Unfortunately, there seems precious little that *couldn't* be used as an excuse for bias against Mages. It was honestly one of the strongest parts of DA2 for me -- yes, Meredith and her Templars started out bad and got even worse, but with the way the Mages under their care *behaved*... it sure *felt* justified, looking at it from a non-mage perspective. Blood Mages and Blood Magic everywhere. If the blood mages wouldn't so idiots, Hawke doesn't have any reason to support the Templars. They needed a very strong reason to show that inherently evil system somehow acceptable, especially the Kirkwall Circle. On the other hand: If we see the circumstances: almost every mage has gone mad inside the Circle, and/or by the Circle. Olivia: gone mad by the persecution (and probably wasn't too educated because Thrask consider the Circle unacceptable – for his daughter, ofc.) Huon: gone mad inside the Circle, at home, with his wife, he was totally sober. Evelina: gone mad by the persecution and the hopelessness. Orsino: gone mad inside the Circle, by the hopelessness. And let's see the evil ones: Tarohne: clearly evil, but her rage and actions directed only towards the Templars. Decimus: tried to protect his own fellows. Grace: extremely vengeful. Just as Sebastian. True, Sebastian not a mage. Quentin: escaped Starkhaven Mage. He was inside the Circle when his wife died? And he's clearly a madman, a serial killer. And never forget: Hawke not a simple non-mage, his/her father, sister is an apostate. Hawke never unbiased. Even Carver, if become Warden, wonder, if Hawke supports the Templars (in fact he's is rather upset). Hawke's not a Cousland. Of course this just a very pro-mage opinion. The crazy blood mages are very dangerous, but supporting a dangerous madwoman with an army seems wrong. I did it but felt uncomfortable. I did two playthroughs of DA2, siding with first the Templars (because I don't usually and I wanted to see it first) and then the Mages... and *ffs* I still rankle at how hopeless Act 3 makes me feel. Nothing you do for either side ends up making any kind of appreciable difference; and when you side with the Mages and Orsino STILL goes all demony... ugh. Just ugh. As much as the mechanics and the overall story are good, I ended up so disappointed in and frustrated with my Hawke that I leave him in the Fade 9 times out of 10. I might keep him in the playthrough I'm working on now, but the only time I kept him is when I rigged it so that Alistair was the Grey Warden with me and I wanted to give him a sad end. Don't forget Idunna when you count crazy blood mages, by the way! Unless you've got a strong enough will you end up having to stab her to death, and she's just being evil because it seems like a good idea at the time.
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nvanfleet
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 273 Likes: 583
inherit
6331
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583
nvanfleet
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nvanfleet
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by nvanfleet on Oct 27, 2017 22:24:21 GMT
I think Asunder suggested that for a spirit to "touch the mind" of someone to break Tranquility, that requires active possession to take place. Pharamond needed to be possessed by a demon before he was cured, while the Seekers are implied to have had their Tranquility broken by being bonded with a Spirit of Faith, turning them into (unaware) benign abominations. (Cole even refers to Cassandra several times as "Faith" while referring to himself as "Compassion" in the same sentence, seemingly confirming that she may have a Spirit dwelling within her. Would further explain why Wynne claimed that Spirits of Faith are rare, because they're actually being bogarted by the Seekers) As said above, Karl only recovered temporarily due to exposure to Justice manifesting. Once Justice subsided and Anders took back control, the effect quickly wore off and Karl returned to his state of Tranquility. If Karl had been possessed (even temporarily), it would have cured him permanently as Pharamond was. Actually it makes me wonder if Pharamond figured the cure from studying various reports of Tranquil mages regaining their senses near Spirits/Demons or in places where the Veil is thin or torn. This was something I wish they'd explored more in Inquisition, whether the Breach or proximity to the Rifts could have "restored" Tranquil individuals temporarily as a side-effect. Could have provided some great moral quandaries, whether or not to close a Rift and doom a group of "cured" Tranquil camped nearby to a fate worse than death? That elven Tranquil who mentions that she 'no longer dreams of Dragons', for instance. I'm amazed she was able to be so close to the breach at all without some powerful demon cracking through and overtaking her.
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