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Post by Catilina on Oct 27, 2017 23:53:21 GMT
If the blood mages wouldn't so idiots, Hawke doesn't have any reason to support the Templars. They needed a very strong reason to show that inherently evil system somehow acceptable, especially the Kirkwall Circle.
On the other hand: If we see the circumstances: almost every mage has gone mad inside the Circle, and/or by the Circle. Olivia: gone mad by the persecution (and probably wasn't too educated because Thrask consider the Circle unacceptable – for his daughter, ofc.) Huon: gone mad inside the Circle, at home, with his wife, he was totally sober. Evelina: gone mad by the persecution and the hopelessness. Orsino: gone mad inside the Circle, by the hopelessness. And let's see the evil ones: Tarohne: clearly evil, but her rage and actions directed only towards the Templars. Decimus: tried to protect his own fellows. Grace: extremely vengeful. Just as Sebastian. True, Sebastian not a mage. Quentin: escaped Starkhaven Mage. He was inside the Circle when his wife died? And he's clearly a madman, a serial killer.
And never forget: Hawke not a simple non-mage, his/her father, sister is an apostate. Hawke never unbiased. Even Carver, if become Warden, wonder, if Hawke supports the Templars (in fact he's is rather upset). Hawke's not a Cousland.
Of course this just a very pro-mage opinion. The crazy blood mages are very dangerous, but supporting a dangerous madwoman with an army seems wrong. I did it but felt uncomfortable. I did two playthroughs of DA2, siding with first the Templars (because I don't usually and I wanted to see it first) and then the Mages... and *ffs* I still rankle at how hopeless Act 3 makes me feel. Nothing you do for either side ends up making any kind of appreciable difference; and when you side with the Mages and Orsino STILL goes all demony... ugh. Just ugh. As much as the mechanics and the overall story are good, I ended up so disappointed in and frustrated with my Hawke that I leave him in the Fade 9 times out of 10. I might keep him in the playthrough I'm working on now, but the only time I kept him is when I rigged it so that Alistair was the Grey Warden with me and I wanted to give him a sad end. Don't forget Idunna when you count crazy blood mages, by the way! Unless you've got a strong enough will you end up having to stab her to death, and she's just being evil because it seems like a good idea at the time. The Exotic Wonder is Tarohne's follower. Yes, I said: Orsino, was desperate, as Anders says when Bethany asks. The Templars were big numerical superiority and just waited for the replenishment. Many mages died already. He has gone mad too. I confess: I I can not really decide, his fate is brilliant or bullshit. And of course, this is Hawke's story's essence: there's no good choice for him/her, s/he can't do anything to stop the madness. And at both sides Hawke lost everything (except his/her love... IF didn't kill/sell/drop to the qunari him/her), mage supportive Hawke exiled, templar supportive Hawke... well betrayed from the Templars (THIS is brilliant!). The whole game about the blind destiny. If you play a crazy Hawke, everything got the meaning. Enjoy the madness, and be a part of this! Not mentioned, this suggests, that both sides are equally bad, but this is not true, according to me. (Perhaps, in Tevinter, they will show, that to support the slaves just as bad, as to support the slavery... I'm sure I full with that forced grey morality) I was satisfied with the mage end. Perhaps, not a sunshine and rainbow, but at least a great chance. I waited for it since my first Origin: so for me, this was promising.
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Post by theascendent on Oct 28, 2017 14:53:53 GMT
I curious what role the Seekers might play in the future, especially considering which Divine is in charge. The Radical Leliana. The Moderate Cassandra. The Conservative Vivienne. Hopefully they will help counteract against the Qunari, rogue Tevinters and whatever else the Dread Wolf might possess.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 28, 2017 19:01:13 GMT
In Asunder it was made clear that to restore a tranquil they either needed to be somewhere the Veil was so think that it would take much for a spirit/demon to touch their mind or a Spirit Medium would have to coax them to do so. I think the latter could be what happens with the Seekers. Spirits of faith would be naturally drawn to wherever a group of them are because of all the religious fervour that surrounds them and then one of them encourages a spirit to cross the divide where it then latches on to whichever mind filled with faith does not already have a spirit linked to it. Of course this does sort of beg the question, surely faith is an emotion so how does the person have "faith"?
This is why I feel the idea that someone external renders them tranquil and then another external agency attracts the spirit cannot be what they mean. What Cassandra described is what many mystics undergo in deep meditation, emptying themselves of all worldly desires and concentrating on the divine consciousness in order to make a deeper connection with it. However, that is not really the same as being tranquil and in any case is self-imposed from within. It is the desire for a "pure" connection with the Maker that attracts the faith spirit.
Yet the Seeker guide does make a direct connection between the Rite of a Seeker and the Rite of Tranquility which may be considered important plot wise but actually doesn't make a great deal of sense when trying to explain what happens.
Kinloch Hold (and likely other Circle Towers) were used for housing mages precisely because the Veil there was thinner and would allow for more easy magical experimentation. This was meant to be why they were also more risky for the likelihood of possession. Why in DAO, when all those abominations were running around Kinloch Hold, were the tranquil unaffected? Why in DA2, when all those mages kept becoming possessed in Kirkwall owing to the thin Veil there, were the tranquil unaffected? Why in DAI, when there were rifts all over the place and demons pouring through, were the tranquil not killed by the Venatori unaffected? In fact, if where the Veil is thin, demons can possess trees, corpses and other non-sentient beings that do not "think" let alone exhibit emotions, why do they ignore tranquil that at least have a brain if not emotions?
I think it is another of these ideas the writers had where the more you try to explain it, the less sense it makes.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 28, 2017 19:04:40 GMT
I don't think it will necessarily matter which Divine is in charge for Seekers to be important and they would be useful in the fight against Solas since their unique powers might give them an edge against him. However, for them to be vital to the plot would require the writers to ignore those choices where the Seekers were not re-built. Of course, it wouldn't be the first time that would have occurred if they did this. Locating them over in the Hunterhorn Mountains could be significant as that makes them well placed to be used in either the Tirashan, the Anderfels, Kal-Sharok or Tevinter itself.
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Post by Sah291 on Oct 28, 2017 20:09:43 GMT
Kinloch Hold (and likely other Circle Towers) were used for housing mages precisely because the Veil there was thinner and would allow for more easy magical experimentation. This was meant to be why they were also more risky for the likelihood of possession. Why in DAO, when all those abominations were running around Kinloch Hold, were the tranquil unaffected? Why in DA2, when all those mages kept becoming possessed in Kirkwall owing to the thin Veil there, were the tranquil unaffected? Why in DAI, when there were rifts all over the place and demons pouring through, were the tranquil not killed by the Venatori unaffected? In fact, if where the Veil is thin, demons can possess trees, corpses and other non-sentient beings that do not "think" let alone exhibit emotions, why do they ignore tranquil that at least have a brain if not emotions? I always thought the Tranquil were supposed to be resistant to spirit possession, and magic in general. They are supposed to be like dwarves, who could handle lyrium unaffected, due to a high tolerance/resistance. The comparisons of Tranquil to Dwarves has been made several times in the course of the series. I'm not sure if the writers have thought it through, but they are at least trying to hint at a comparison there. But just having a high resistance to something doesn't make it impossible, just less likely. They did explain why demons weren't bothering to possess much in DAI, since they were able to just enter the world directly through a rift. I imagine the same would be true in other areas where the Veil was very thin. They could more easily push through. Cole pushed through that way, he didn't need to take possession. So it would seem for demons, having their own body or will is preferable to possession, given the choice.
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Post by Sifr on Oct 28, 2017 23:57:24 GMT
That elven Tranquil who mentions that she 'no longer dreams of Dragons', for instance. I'm amazed she was able to be so close to the breach at all without some powerful demon cracking through and overtaking her. Especially if that line suggests she's Avexis from Dawn of the Seeker, because then that would be seriously bad. (If you've not seen the film, she was kidnapped as a child by a group of blood mages who wanted to use her rare ability to control dragons. She was the reason for the dragon battle at the Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux, the one that Cassandra stopped and lead to her becoming the Right Hand of the Divine) Guess it makes sense why she ended up Tranquil, the Chantry might have viewed her ability as far too dangerous to keep around. Blood mages hijacking her gift was bad enough... imagine what carnage a demon could unleash with that sort of power at it's beck and call? Poor damn kid. But yeah, seeing what affect (if any) the Breach had on Tranquil was a major missed opportunity in DAI. Probably why there's quite a few Tranquil Inquisitor AU fanfics out there were they were "cured" by the Breach/Anchor, it'd have been a cool concept/background to explore in the game.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 29, 2017 0:25:44 GMT
What I want to know is why Seekers aren't traumatized by Tranquility like mages are. Or is it just because they underwent the ritual willingly, and don't remember being tranquil at all?
Also, that Dragon Age facebook game had a character who was born Tranquil: the son of a former templar and an elven mage.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 29, 2017 0:58:25 GMT
What I want to know is why Seekers aren't traumatized by Tranquility like mages are. Or is it just because they underwent the ritual willingly, and don't remember being tranquil at all? Also, that Dragon Age facebook game had a character who was born Tranquil: the son of a former templar and an elven mage. This is voluntary to a Seeker. They know, that this is reversible, and do it, because they want to be a Seeker.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 29, 2017 5:52:40 GMT
That elven Tranquil who mentions that she 'no longer dreams of Dragons', for instance. I'm amazed she was able to be so close to the breach at all without some powerful demon cracking through and overtaking her. Especially if that line suggests she's Avexis from Dawn of the Seeker, because then that would be seriously bad. (If you've not seen the film, she was kidnapped as a child by a group of blood mages who wanted to use her rare ability to control dragons. She was the reason for the dragon battle at the Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux, the one that Cassandra stopped and lead to her becoming the Right Hand of the Divine) Guess it makes sense why she ended up Tranquil, the Chantry might have viewed her ability as far too dangerous to keep around. Blood mages hijacking her gift was bad enough... imagine what carnage a demon could unleash with that sort of power at it's beck and call? Poor damn kid. But yeah, seeing what affect (if any) the Breach had on Tranquil was a major missed opportunity in DAI. Probably why there's quite a few Tranquil Inquisitor AU fanfics out there were they were "cured" by the Breach/Anchor, it'd have been a cool concept/background to explore in the game. I like to think that once Cassandra discovers the cure for Tranquility and how to do it in a way that doesn't drive the mage insane, Avexis is the first person she helps. Also makes sense Cassandra got her when the Mage-Templar War went down to make sure her friend was safe.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 29, 2017 8:51:04 GMT
A couple of points. Cassandra is under the impression that reversing tranquillity will have a bad effect no matter why the mage was made tranquil. Not all mages are forcibly made tranquil. Some of them accept it voluntarily and according to that codex from a tranquil in DAO seem to feel that it was a relief to be that way, remembering how the life was not so settled when they were a mage. Often the reason the person asks for it is that they do not have much skill as a mage and never really wanted the powers so would rather have it taken away rather than live in constant fear of being possessed. Now if such a person was restored, they would still have the fear of being possessed and the shock to the system of suddenly feeling emotion again probably would be very unsettling. Nevertheless, it was originally still a voluntary state of tranquillity, so it must be that with Seekers it is a self-imposed supressing of emotion rather than an external cutting off of emotions, that makes the difference when they are restored.
With regard to tranquil being resistant to possession, as I understand the reasoning, they are less attractive to demons than, say, a tree because they will resist the possession with their own mind not because the Rite gives them any inherent magical resistance like dwarves. Anybody can be possessed, including dwarves, but anyone other than a mage is less "visible" to demons in the Fade and dwarves doubly so because apparently they do not even dream when they are asleep. Since tranquil don't dream either that is why they would be on a par with dwarves for the level of attractiveness to demons. It still doesn't explain to me why a tranquil would be less attractive than a dead body (which definitely doesn't dream) or a tree.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Oct 29, 2017 12:47:41 GMT
What is stranger about the Seeker rite is that they speak of "branding the mind" with lyrium but there is nothing visible to show this, unless the spirit of faith automatically "heals" the mark when it bonds with them. Normally, this wouldn't bother me, as I'd just say that the brand on tranquil mages is meant to serve as a warning to other mages and is just part of the whole ritualistic aspect of the Rite of Tranquility. But that was blown out of the water by DG himself: Perhaps this can be explained away by saying that the lyrium brand is required for mages specifically, since mages' connection to the Fade is stronger than non-mages'. Non-mages might be able to have an altered form of the Rite.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 29, 2017 14:11:14 GMT
Yes, but what is the Rite if it doesn't involve a lyrium brand? If they are actually doing something external to the initiate to severe their connection to the Fade, what is it? That is why I feel the Seeker Rite is poorly explained.
Cassandra definitely says she emptied herself of all emotion. It was an internal, self-imposed tranquillity. Then the others Seekers encourage a spirit of faith to touch her mind and she has a surge of emotion.
And yet, if this was the case, why did the Seeker Rite failing with a mage alert them to the fact that it could be used for some other purpose? If it was a self-imposed tranquillity, then the mage could have restored themselves. So it had to be an externally imposed tranquillity, presumably by some physical means, so could not be reversed.
May be it is just that the lyrium brand is not on the forehead. DG originally suggested this as a way to explain why the lyrium brand did not appear in DAO because different Circles put the brand in different places. Kirkwall wanted it visible, possibly because they wanted to put the fear of the Maker in the mages there, whereas Ferelden regarded it more as a comfort than a deterrent and so they didn't make the brand so visible.
So with this explanation, perhaps Cassandra did have a brand but it was somewhere not obvious. However, if that was the case then the spirit would have to be in permanent contact with her mind, not just a one off encounter, or the tranquillity would return once the spirit broke contact. Except that was not the case with Pharamond as even after the demon had been exorcised he was still restored to himself. So, what does the brand do?
The whole idea is full of contradictions and sadly I doubt they will ever bother to properly explain it.
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Post by ellehaym on Oct 29, 2017 16:17:29 GMT
I always thought the Seeker Rite of Tranquility was a more "natural" and arduous way for one to "empty" themselves. And that lyrium branding was just a short cut and also forceful way to do the same thing, but used for mages.
Much like how Templars seem to have a shortcut to how Seekers did it via use of lyrium.
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Post by Sah291 on Oct 29, 2017 16:33:58 GMT
The idea of the Seekers undergoing self imposed Tranquility, while mages don't, implies mages don't generally know how to self impose Tranquility on their own. Or at least, they didn't after the rite was adapted for use in Circles.
The Chantry believes magic is fueled by chaos or emotion, and that's what makes mages more susceptible to demons in their view. We know it's actually connected to the Fade, but the Fade is itself connected to dreams, so there may be a grain of truth there.
If you consider the cultivation of willpower is extremely important to magic, for mages, then it may simply be very counter intuitive to a mage to want to "empty themselves of all desires" in their first place...but Seekers are basically Templars, meaning they are skilled at mitigating magic, and the Fade, and that might have just come more easily.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 29, 2017 19:16:49 GMT
Seekers are more than simply Templars. They are trained to the discipline from childhood and Cassandra would normally be considered too old when she was taken on at the age of 12. In Wo2 is says that 3 years later she undertook her vigil, which was in fact a young age to do so, so much of the initial training must be conditioning the mind (brainwashing?) the young person into religious fervour. It is then said that she was left alone for weeks to "meditate, purge herself of all emotion, and achieve a state of pious bliss", so whatever she read into the description of her transformation, it was not the same as the Rite of Tranquility. It was a state of religious ecstasy brought on by her intense faith. That is what attracts the spirit to them.
Their unique powers are not like those of a Templar either. Disregarding the fact that Cassandra was given the Templar spec in game, she described these to the Inquisitor. They have the ability to set the lyrium aflame in the blood of the mage (or Templar I would assume) which can be used to paralyse, interrogate (torture) and in extreme cases kill the target. Strangely enough these powers most closely mimic those of a blood mage when using the spells that can only be performed by blood magic, in particular blood wound. Considering that lyrium has now been revealed to be blood, perhaps this is not that surprising, apart from the fact that it demonstrates the usual Chantry hypocrisy that Seekers are permitted to do this sort of thing and yet blood mages condemned for it.
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Post by theascendent on Oct 29, 2017 21:19:50 GMT
I am curious to learn what else is hidden away in that Tome of Secrets Cassandra has.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 29, 2017 21:27:46 GMT
Seekers are more than simply Templars. They are trained to the discipline from childhood and Cassandra would normally be considered too old when she was taken on at the age of 12. In Wo2 is says that 3 years later she undertook her vigil, which was in fact a young age to do so, so much of the initial training must be conditioning the mind (brainwashing?) the young person into religious fervour. It is then said that she was left alone for weeks to "meditate, purge herself of all emotion, and achieve a state of pious bliss", so whatever she read into the description of her transformation, it was not the same as the Rite of Tranquility. It was a state of religious ecstasy brought on by her intense faith. That is what attracts the spirit to them. Their unique powers are not like those of a Templar either. Disregarding the fact that Cassandra was given the Templar spec in game, she described these to the Inquisitor. They have the ability to set the lyrium aflame in the blood of the mage (or Templar I would assume) which can be used to paralyse, interrogate (torture) and in extreme cases kill the target. Strangely enough these powers most closely mimic those of a blood mage when using the spells that can only be performed by blood magic, in particular blood wound. Considering that lyrium has now been revealed to be blood, perhaps this is not that surprising, apart from the fact that it demonstrates the usual Chantry hypocrisy that Seekers are permitted to do this sort of thing and yet blood mages condemned for it. (This is why I was disappointed, that Cassandra just a simple Templar... according to the talent tree. Inquisition failed at the spells-skills, these are boring.)
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Post by Sah291 on Oct 29, 2017 23:06:58 GMT
They are more than basic Templars, they are higher ranking and more highly trained, etc. But the Templar Order was created as a support organization, and adapted their rituals, but I believe the Seekers came first.
But what I was driving at, was they are part of the same Andrastian tradition. Templars (and Seekers) are skilled at disrupting magic, but mages are skilled at working with the Fade, Dreams, etc. It may come more naturally for a non mage to undergo the Seeker training.
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Post by xerrai on Oct 30, 2017 0:20:50 GMT
What I want to know is why Seekers aren't traumatized by Tranquility like mages are. Or is it just because they underwent the ritual willingly, and don't remember being tranquil at all? Also, that Dragon Age facebook game had a character who was born Tranquil: the son of a former templar and an elven mage. As many have said, the whole voluntary aspect of it is likely the most important factor to this. But it is also likely due to the sheer difference between how the rituals are performed. Seeker prepare years in advance before they begin their vigil, and the vigil itself takes a decent amount of time and supreme meditation. Mages simply go through a comparatively brief ritual where a lyrium brand is forced upon them. Also not too relevant, but one of Bioware's writers (Sheryl Chee) confirmed that children being born tranquil is not a thing. But then again, when explicitly asked if it was canon, Gaider said you would have to ask the DA: Legends people so...
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Post by Nightscrawl on Oct 30, 2017 1:35:38 GMT
DG originally suggested this as a way to explain why the lyrium brand did not appear in DAO because different Circles put the brand in different places. I've read the thread. It was after the explanation that they ran out of resources. In that case, he was offering something to ease the player's mind, not an actual Word of God in-game explanation for why it's not seen in DAO. The true reason is that they ran out of resources; players can make up anything they want if it makes sense to them. He's said as much for many things that don't have a direct in-game explanation.
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