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Post by Sah291 on Nov 8, 2017 21:58:23 GMT
I don't know if the Lady of the Skies is Mythal or not, but I do recall some devs hinting that we should pay attention to that bit of lore (about Tyrdda Bright-Axe) and that it was important...so possibly foreshadowing something to come. I wish I could find the tweet...I just recall it being discussed on the old forum. At the time I was thinking she was connected to Andraste. Tyrdda considered the Lady of the Skies to be her lover, and the wiki says the Lady was a spirit bound to the body of an elf.
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Post by nvanfleet on Nov 8, 2017 22:03:37 GMT
I don't know if the Lady of the Skies is Mythal or not, but I do recall some devs hinting that we should pay attention to that bit of lore (about Tyrdda Bright-Axe) and that it was important...so possibly foreshadowing something to come. I wish I could find the tweet...I just recall it being discussed on the old forum. At the time I was thinking she was connected to Andraste. Tyrdda considered the Lady of the Skies to be her lover, and the wiki says the Lady was a spirit bound to the body of an elf. Well, it's like the Avvar Mage we help (or not, ymmv) in Jaws of Hakkon - she considers the spirit bound to her to be her only friend in the world. Going so far as lover wouldn't be amiss. I don't half wonder if Andraste was actually bound with a spirit/Forgotten One/Evanuris/what have you moving against the others of all pantheons; trying to keep them down by using the formed Chantry to try and aggressively turn people towards putting Abominations of all kinds to the sword. If it follows that the aforementioned various Deities began as Spirits that either gained physical form or continually moved to new bodies, then someone trying specifically to prevent their regaining of power would be invested in turning relations of any stripe with spirits into a thing of danger and taboo.
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Post by Sah291 on Nov 8, 2017 22:18:38 GMT
Tyrdda founded the Avvar...so this was probably just part of their culture to bond with spirits. It's not clear whether the spirit was bound to her personally, or if she had an elven lover who the spirit was bound to.
Mythal, as we know, was bound to a human-Flemeth, but she has had other bodies presumably. Or could be, daughters.
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Post by nvanfleet on Nov 8, 2017 22:31:11 GMT
See, I definitely think Flemeth has particular bodies in mind - tying her own immortality to Ashebellenar/Mythal's once their spirits 'bonded', and that she gives birth to these daughters because that's her plan. Like Corypheus with the blight-tainted Wardens. I also don't believe that Morrigan is safe from Flemeth for a second, no matter what the old Witch of the Wilds says.
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Post by azarhal on Nov 9, 2017 1:15:31 GMT
hmm, Sylaise was the one who got the grand and fancy temples/cities built in her name, I don't remember any reference to Mythal about building a lots of cities/stuff. Also, the elven gods had territories. Mythal's seems to have been the Arbor Wilds and southern Frostback mountains. In DAO, outside the Haven Temple (which is full of Mythal statues: woman with dragon wings), the others elven ruins were mostly full of Sylaise/Ghilan'nain/Andruil statues (based on the DAO Dalish statues for them).
The Golden City would be empty regardless if the person that created it was any of the elven gods, old gods or something else that left a long time ago. They are pretty much all incarcerated, under eternal "sleep" or "dead" by the time the Magisters get there (if they really got there, it's not like they ever saw what the Golden City looked like from the inside before attempting their little trip).
Also, I had this weird idea that the Old Gods could be the Titans's soul bound to dragons so that they stay asleep, hence the dragons guarding something, them emitting a similar song and their souls getting destroyed being bad. They (Titan) would also fit better as the Forgotten Ones, everyone clearly forgot they existed, lol.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 9, 2017 8:55:14 GMT
"Sylaise whose heat rivals Elgar'nan's light. Sylaise, whose temples rival Mythal's cities. Sylaise, whose breath rivals Andruil's spear. Sylaise, whose skill rivals June's craft. Sylaise, whose fire cannot be quenched."
So according to the faithful of Sylaise, Elgar'nan is known for light (possibly lightning); Andruil for her spear; June for his craft and Mythal for her cities. I rather suspect that the cities they are talking about are the interior of Titans which she has re-purposed for use of the elves. The description of the elven city in the Library with its suspended walkways, etc, really reminded me of the interior of the Titan we visited in the Descent. I remember thinking at the time, this makes me think of elves not dwarves. Mythal was the goddess of justice and order, which you equate more with cities than you do with the wilds. The ruins in the Arbor Wilds were spread over a wide area, which would suggest a city, of which only the Temple of Mythal at its heart remained.
Sylaise, as you can see, is principally known for her fire. It made me wonder if those weird fire worshipping creatures in the Descent had anything to do with her. It certainly makes me equate her to Toth. Also all those volcanic areas to be found throughout Thedas.
I am also pretty convinced that the Black City is in fact the interior of a corrupted Titan, possibly the original one that Mythal killed/subdued. Back in DAO Dalish origin Tamlen looks into the eluvian and sees a black city and a strange malevolent presence. I very much doubt that eluvian was connected to the Fade but we know they can be connected to the Deep Roads. Attempting to reach the city in the Fade just whisks you off into the corrupted titan in the depths of the earth. Probably a fail safe mechanism installed by Solas to prevent people reaching the prison of the Creators.
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Post by Sah291 on Nov 9, 2017 15:15:43 GMT
Sylaise reminds me a lot of Vesta. I wonder if Sylaise's worship could have made it's way into Andrastianism, I recall a codex saying when the Circles were created, one of the jobs of the mages there was to keep a sacred flame lit. Then there is the whole thing with Andraste's ashes and passing the fire in Origins. So lots of fire symbolism connected to Andraste herself, and not just literally because that was how she died, but Andrastians seem to revere fire as some kind of sacred or purifying agent. "Fire is my water..." and the whole bit with Seekers being able to set blood aflame. An important part of the Seeker order appears to be mastery of fire.
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Post by azarhal on Nov 9, 2017 16:43:02 GMT
I always believed that the Urn of Sacred Ashes Andraste statue in the Haven Temple was actually a Sylaise statue (the place is full of Mythal's statues) while the Andraste statues with weapons are mostly depiction of Andruil (even hinted at via Masked Andraste).
Seems like followers of Andraste just re-purposed things already laying around. Just like Tevinter did. That's why we have all this confusion with people mistaking elven ruins/artifacts for Tevinter ruins/artifacts from ignorant people (which is pretty much everyone in Thedas). It might also explain why we see a Old Gods = Enuvaris thing going, Tevinter just put their site of worship into existing Enuvaris worship areas without the two necessarily having any links.
It also means that Andraste might not have worn that very elven tiara we see in most of her art or if she did, it was to match the look of the female Enuvaris statues laying around everywhere...
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Post by nvanfleet on Nov 9, 2017 16:45:40 GMT
I always believed that the Urn of Sacred Ashes Andraste statue in the Haven Temple was actually a Sylaise statue (the place is full of Mythal's statues) while the Andraste statues with weapons are mostly depiction of Andruil (even hinted at via Masked Andraste). Seems like followers of Andraste just re-purposed things already laying around. Just like Tevinter did. That's why we have all this confusion with people mistaking elven ruins/artifacts for Tevinter ruins/artifacts from ignorant people (which is pretty much everyone in Thedas). It might also explain why we see a Old Gods = Enuvaris thing going, Tevinter just put their site of worship into existing Enuvaris worship areas without the two necessarily having any links. It also means that Andraste might not have worn that very elven tiara we see in most of her art or if she did, it was to match the look of the female Enuvaris statues laying around everywhere... Why make from scratch what you can repurpose? It's *very* Roman Empire in comparison to how said Empire took over the Greek Deities and places of worship and only just renamed everyone except Apollo.
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Post by Sah291 on Nov 9, 2017 17:09:17 GMT
The Romans appropriated a lot of deities from all over, and the Greeks did also. But it definitely wasn't random even then, or just to assert their own power (though I'm sure that was a convenient part of it for the Empire). But they did view many of their gods as being present in other cultures under different names, so gods were associated for having similair roles and aspects.
If Andraste was identified with Sylaise, they likely would have seen Sylaise as being similair to Andraste in spirit. Or the writers might be saying so. They have sure put a lot of wonderful detail into their lore!
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Post by azarhal on Nov 9, 2017 18:30:29 GMT
If Andraste was identified with Sylaise, they likely would have seen Sylaise as being similair to Andraste in spirit. Or the writers might be saying so. They have sure put a lot of wonderful detail into their lore! Andraste is known as a warrior not a hearthkeeper. The Urn of Sacred Ashes statue is the only place that would fit with Sylaise's imagery, the majority of the time Andraste is shown with weapons. I actually think that statue in Haven's temple is the only one of a normal looking woman actually (going by memory which date from last June).
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Post by theascendent on Nov 9, 2017 18:37:00 GMT
I am always interested in how the other religions and/or faiths view people/creatures that contradict, invalidate, or bring doubt towards their own teachings. One instance that I found fascinating was the early contact between Tevinter and the Elves who lived in Arlathan. According to the priests of the Old Gods, magic was a gift from their patrons, and yet they encountered another race with magic. These little contradictions and controversies really bring life into the setting in my opinion.
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Post by nvanfleet on Nov 9, 2017 18:41:51 GMT
If Andraste was identified with Sylaise, they likely would have seen Sylaise as being similair to Andraste in spirit. Or the writers might be saying so. They have sure put a lot of wonderful detail into their lore! Andraste is known as a warrior not a hearthkeeper. The Urn of Sacred Ashes statue is the only place that would fit with Sylaise's imagery, the majority of the time Andraste is shown with weapons. I actually think that statue in Haven's temple is the only one of a normal looking woman actually (going by memory which date from last June). Isn't that one of the statues with the dragon wings that led to that nutso Cult of Andraste worshiping the dragon roosting near the temple?
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Post by azarhal on Nov 9, 2017 18:45:18 GMT
Andraste is known as a warrior not a hearthkeeper. The Urn of Sacred Ashes statue is the only place that would fit with Sylaise's imagery, the majority of the time Andraste is shown with weapons. I actually think that statue in Haven's temple is the only one of a normal looking woman actually (going by memory which date from last June). Isn't that one of the statues with the dragon wings that led to that nutso Cult of Andraste worshiping the dragon roosting near the temple? That statue is the only one without dragon wings actually (from what I remember).
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 9, 2017 19:01:07 GMT
It was that statue that seemed to confirm the Tevinter assertion that Andraste was a mage. Since then the additional details about Andraste's early life contained in WoT2 pretty much confirms it but at the time the partially burned book we give to Wynne was our only clue plus that statue.
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Post by theascendent on Nov 9, 2017 19:13:44 GMT
What are the chances that Mythal possesd Andraste, before she took Flemeth and used the idea of 'the Maker' to manipulate the humans.
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Post by Sah291 on Nov 9, 2017 19:15:12 GMT
If Andraste was identified with Sylaise, they likely would have seen Sylaise as being similair to Andraste in spirit. Or the writers might be saying so. They have sure put a lot of wonderful detail into their lore! Andraste is known as a warrior not a hearthkeeper. The Urn of Sacred Ashes statue is the only place that would fit with Sylaise's imagery, the majority of the time Andraste is shown with weapons. I actually think that statue in Haven's temple is the only one of a normal looking woman actually (going by memory which date from last June). True, it's evidence they identified the sacred flame with Andraste and Sylaise, and their worship could have merged as a result. Andraste's followers absorbing some elven practices? We know they were allied with elves as part of the rebellion. Though a lot of that history was purged from the Chant by the Chantry. But that might explain why there are traces of so many elven goddesses in Andraste's myths. She had elven followers, and they saw aspects of their goddesses in her, perhaps. Going back to the Lady of the Skies, being an elf, I think we are meant to take away that human and elven history in Thedas is much more closely related.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 9, 2017 19:29:43 GMT
I think you are right and probably a lot of the elven bits of the lore were erased by the Chantry. To give an example, from what occurs in the Canticle of Shartan, I would have said that the title "Blade of the Faith" belonged to Shartan and was bestowed on him by Andraste when she gave him the sword Glandivalis (which is an elven name and means believer/faithful or something similar). "Take this my Champion and free our people forever," would suggest that this title would have been his in perpetuity.
So she would hardly have given the same title to Drakon, particularly as he claimed he was not being charged to free their people from slavery but spread the faith by the sword. It must have come as a nasty shock when the Divine asked for the elven oral lore to be put into writing and they discovered what they believed about Shartan. It is also not surprising that they dropped him from the Chant at the earliest opportunity for political reasons, particularly as in a way by rounding the elves up and penning them in alienages, they were effectively enslaving them again, not to mention stealing the homeland given to them by Andraste (her mother was a Ciriane chieftain of an area that covered much of southern Orlais and Andraste would have inherited this, so I'm fairly certain the land was hers to give and Maferath didn't dare go back on it).
There is also a section in the Chant of Light (acknowledged to be one of the oldest bits) that actually refers to the Fade as the Beyond, which is definitely an elven term and suggests that elven lore must have influenced that part of the Chant. In fact it was probably based on a prayer to Falon'Din:
Though all before me is shadow, Yet shall the Maker/Falon'din be my guide. I shall not be left to wander the drifting roads of the Beyond.
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Post by azarhal on Nov 9, 2017 20:14:27 GMT
Drakon was insane, it's the only explanation for a guy who has visions in his sleep but isn't a mage in this setting. That's kinda valid for Andraste too. I can see ancient Tevinter calling the Fade the Beyond, going by how they practically learned magic from elves and took most of their stuff. Now the question is where the term "Fade" comes from I guess. Or Beyond = pre-Veil and Fade = post-Veil?
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 10, 2017 16:54:56 GMT
Well the term "Beyond" made sense in the pre-Veil world since it was beyond the jurisdiction of the Evanuris, except possibly Falon'Din who "would walk where the People could not live". It was certainly beyond the world of the living. Spirits could pass freely between the two but clearly material beings either went there through uthenera or shed their earthly form and became spirits in order to do so.
Fade would also make sense in that the post-Veil realm seemed a faded reflection of the real world (and the material world itself was lesser than it had once been. However, I think it is just a racial thing and the only reason Solas consistently uses the term "Fade" is because he knows that is the acknowledge term for it in modern culture.
The Qunari of course use neither term. To them it is simply the Land of the Dead. Presumably the dwarves have no word for it since they do not dream and so never experience it.
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Post by xerrai on Nov 17, 2017 1:45:31 GMT
Drakon was insane, it's the only explanation for a guy who has visions in his sleep but isn't a mage in this setting. That's kinda valid for Andraste too. I can see ancient Tevinter calling the Fade the Beyond, going by how they practically learned magic from elves and took most of their stuff. Now the question is where the term "Fade" comes from I guess. Or Beyond = pre-Veil and Fade = post-Veil? Not necessarily. Dreams in this setting are basically fade scenes: ones where the human subconscious seep into the fade and spirits/demons can respond to it. Theoretically, anyone can experience a vision, so long as the spirits/demons in question reliably predict the future (as they can sometimes do since they perceive time differently). In particular, Andraste has close ties to the Alamarri, who later splintered into several separate tribes like the Avaar (who regularly contact spirits).
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 17, 2017 7:07:51 GMT
I'd still like to know why the Chantry claim the Maker/Andraste picked out Drakon among all the faithful. It seems very convenient to me that he claimed to have had a vision that endorsed his empire building and then his Chantry claimed that the Maker was no longer in communication with the world and had abandoned it until the Chant of Light was spread to the four corners of Thedas. Then he destroyed all rival cults to the Maker, not just the wacky ones, all of them. It seems rather odd to me that if they were already worshipping the Maker, then surely the latter was happy and would have been angry with the person who killed them. He was even heading to Tevinter to land grab during the Second Blight until he got a plea from the Grey Wardens in the Anderfels to assist them and so diverted his army there, getting converts in the process.
There is one alternative version of the faith (other than Tevinter) he didn't get and that was the Ash Warriors. They had their own visionary, Gelgenig who was leading them before the Chantry came into existence (the reference to the Blessed Age in the codex was obviously a mistake). He had a vision telling him to unite the warring tribes and spread the faith in his country but no further. The Ash Warriors worshiped the Maker and revered Andraste but they neither acknowledge the Chantry or their Chant of Light. There was also the cult in Haven, of course, who for many years had been true to their faith (as confirmed by the Guardian) but only deviated in the Dragon Age. Mind you early barbarian tribes did believe their heroes were reborn as dragons, so this was consistent with their faith tracing to a much earlier time.
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Post by Sah291 on Nov 18, 2017 15:03:29 GMT
Yeah it's pretty convenient. Drakon obviously had imperial ambitions, and so did the Chantry. That was the impression I got from some of the codex in DAI, it's hinted that Andraste herself was much more anti Empire, and that a decision was made to downplay some of Andraste's teachings in order to secure an Empire for Andrastianism. It was thought necessary to counter Tevinter. But more importantly her followers feared they would become enslaved again. Maferath possibly betrayed her over this issue and is celebrated as the reason Andrastianism survived at all. So yeah this was probably a case of political expediency overruling religious belief, and they compromised. Drakon destroyed their rivals and enemies. They may have worshiped the Maker and followed Andraste, but they still could have been seen as political rivals, especially if their view of the Maker/Andraste contradicted theirs, and especially if they opposed imperial power (very likely many of the barbarian tribes did).
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 18, 2017 17:50:10 GMT
Another oddity is Tevinter. They (allegedly) had already embraced faith in the Maker some 150 years before Drakon and his Chantry, yet for some reason they felt the need to appease the southern Chantry and seemed anxious to gain recognition by them. So clearly they saw Drakon's political ambition and were worried by it, plus of course they may have been hoping for assistance with the Blight. In both cases, of course, their attempts backfired on them since they had to adopt his Chantry's rules and he was still considering invading them because he realised they had been weakened by the Blight.
Then Ameridan criticises the leaders of the Dales for considering that Drakon was no better than Tevinter. In fact I'd say he was a lot worse at that stage in history. He claimed they needed reminding of "our alliance with Drakon". I'm pretty sure there never was one or if the Dalish leadership did agree to it initially, they soon came to regret their decision. It is interesting to speculate on how different history would have been if the Dalish had actually succeeded in conquering Val Royeaux in their war with Orlais and destroying the Grand Cathedral.
I also think the reason the Canticle of Shartan was removed from the Chant wasn't just because they were at war with the elves but because of what it said about Andraste's motivation for attacking Tevinter (freedom for the slaves) and that her view of Shartan's place in the Maker's scheme was that he was her equal and leader of the elves as she was leader of the barbarians. They hardly wanted the Chant reminding the newly enclosed city elves daily that they were not inferior in the eyes of the Maker.
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