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Post by Walter Black on Sept 30, 2016 18:19:43 GMT
I'm always curious as to why people pick certain positions in fandom, and few in Dragon Age are as polarizing as Mages versus Templars. Just for fun, I'd like to gage why fans picked their respective team here, and how they respond to critics and divergent storylines.
1. Within the context of the DA universe, why do you prefer Templars or Mages?
2. Is it simply preference, or do you actively dislike the other? If so, what specifically do you hate?
3. Have you played both? If yes, did it give you any new insight? If not, why?
For the Mage fans:
4. Many Mage fans have likened the Circle to various forms of real world discrimination. Yet, like mutants in X-Men, magic in Dragon Age gives a clear inborn advantage to those with over those without. Being able to shoot fire or control minds is NOT the same as having a different skin color or sexuality. This false equivalency can give the impression of "they're just holding us down because we really are better than they are". How do you address this imbalance?
5. Mage fans can often treat magic the same as superpowers, completely ignoring it's context within DA lore; i.e., the necessity of lyrium and/or blood, how it can weaken the Veil, and the constant threat of demonic possession. They rationalize that since as Players they can easily avoid such pratfalls, everyone should be able to. This dismisses that Player Characters are always given agency that most NPCs never have, or that entitled players would whine if they where subject to the same restrictions. Your response?
6. When asked how they would protect the average citizen from magical abuse, several of the most common answers have huge holes:
A. "Mages and Templars will work together". That might work in a more idealized and black and white setting, but Dragon Age is an adult story with complex characters and black and grey conflicts.
B. "Mages will protect mundanes". Even getting past how patronizing this sounds, as if those without magic are helpless children, this position is illogical due to normals outnumbering Mages 100 to 1. By the time your Mage Cop got to a town being terrorized by a Blood Mage or Abomination, it would be too late.
C. "Normals and Mages will stay away from each other". Ignoring the moral implications of how segregation only reinforces ignorance and hatred, eventually expanding populations competing for resources will bring everyone right back right where they started.
D. "I don't care about average joes, I play fantasy RPGs to imagine myself among special people". That's potentially valid for a personal story, but it's crap world building and breaks immersion for the rest of us.
E. "Mundanes don't deserve protection! They've kept us down for too long, are now they're going too pay!" Hey, I'm all for allowing Players to become the Villain if they choose. Just don't expect the rest of the world to accept it just because you are the Protagonist.
How would you address these issues?
7. Most likely we will be going to Tevinter in DA4, where Mages rule. Will you still help the oppressed underdog and give mundanes a leg up in the Imperium, or preserve the status quo for "Mage Power"?
For the Templar fans:
8. Protecting normals from magical abuse is good, but many Templar fans refuse to see the benefit of magical research and development to make the world a better place. Technology, medicine, agriculture, or even *gasp* magic itself? Newsflash guys, Mages don't want to get possessed anymore more than you do . But since even the smallest Magical R&D is forbidden in the South, how are they supposed to make meaningful contributions to society? Funny how Templar fans forget how one of their best defenses against mental domination, the Litany of Adralla, came from Tevinter .
9. Templar fans agree with the Chantry's position of discouraging Mage couples and stealing their children under the reasoning that the Mages would breed more Mages than they could handle. How do you still justify this when, within the lore this did not happen in Tevinter? Yeah, even with their obsession with magical eugenics, Mages are still the minority in the Imperium.
10. I know this is a stretch, but with Templar opposition magical research and families, do you ever consider that you could very well be holding back humanity from evolving to the next step?
11. Most importantly, in addition to magic a lot of Templar fans have issues with non human races, spirits, and the Fade. Fantasy concepts in a fantasy world. I agree that for variety's sake, there should be more reality based RPGs; i.e. cops and robbers, soldiers and spies, etcetera. But if you hate fantasy so much, why are you even here ?
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Post by phoray on Sept 30, 2016 19:12:29 GMT
I'm always curious as to why people pick certain positions in fandom, and few in Dragon Age are as polarizing as Mages versus Templars. Just for fun, I'd like to gage why fans picked their respective team here, and how they respond to critics and divergent storylines.
1. Within the context of the DA universe, why do you prefer Templars or Mages?
2. Is it simply preference, or do you actively dislike the other? If so, what specifically do you hate?
3. Have you played both? If yes, did it give you any new insight? If not, why?
1/2. Mages. They struggle, for a variety of reasons, and it's admirable. Templars, even the good ones, are super paranoid. Alistair was glad to not become one, Cullen was glad to stop being one. There are, maybe, two representations of good Templars. Evangeline, in the book, and Ser Barris; from what I've heard on the forums, anyway, as I still haven't allied with the Templars to get to know his character any further. In real life, even as a middle class Caucasian female (less likely to be bothered), I don't trust cops to not abuse their power, and I associate the Templars with cops some. The fact that they are tied to the Chantry (church) and I'm atheist doesn't help. I am sympathetic to their addiction problems, but that is the only thing I am sympathetic about regarding them. I'd like to add that, as an American, I was raised to value "FREEEDOOOOOM", and I am a libertarian, and favor less oversight of many things. 3. I don't know what you mean, have I played both? Have I tried siding with both? Or have I literally played as a Templar? I intend to have a Templar run in DAI, but I dislike the warrior class- not enough sparkly or fast enough. I haven't sided with the Templars either, but plan to explore characters that would. In DA2, I feel it takes a super paranoid dedicated to the law type, so that exploration won't help the Templar cause much in my mind. In DAI, I intend to explore a more Evangeline type of approach; a person that looks up to Templars the way some look up to Grey Wardens. That may help me get closer to a Templar perspective; but I think I am too pro freedom to ever not personally side with the mages. I will come back to reply to the rest later. Gotta go do stuff.
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Post by Cyonan on Sept 30, 2016 19:13:26 GMT
Personally I find that both sides(Templars/Mages within the game) are idiotic in their ways, but I suppose that's kind of the point of the story. It wouldn't be much of a moral dilemma if one side was clearly in the right.
If I had to pick I would lean slightly on the side of the Templars because they have a point. Mages posses a great deal of destructive power and certain steps do need to be taken to account for that. The Circles were always going to result in failure because rounding everybody up and forcing them to live in a single area basically hasn't worked out ever for anybody in the long run, but a general solution that is best for all parties involved needed to be created.
This is after having played characters that I RP'd on both sides of the debate. As for the rest of the questions(I'll answer the Templar ones since I said I was slightly on that side):
8. This is one of the biggest benefits they could be having. It would be like if upon unleashing the nuclear bomb we banned all R&D involving that technology, but it has provided us with major advancements in almost every area of technology. The splitting of the atom was one of the greatest technological advancements of the Human race once you get past all of the destruction it can be used for, and we'd have been stupid to ban it just because it can be used for evil purposes.
9. I could be wrong but I've never seen anything to suggest that two mage parents result in a more likely mage offspring to a degree that it would make a significant difference to let the relatively low number of mages have children. Given the lack of a scientific community in Thedas, I doubt this theory has ever been properly tested within the universe anyway.
10. I've never been one for the whole "evolving Humanity to the next step" bit. Evolution isn't a thing that's supposed to be rushed by magic or technology, and attempting to take control of evolution generally results in bad things happening.
11. I don't actually have problems with the fantasy elements of the setting. I personally prefer playing as something other than the Human Male that I get to be every day of my life outside of gaming when I'm RPing.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 30, 2016 19:20:41 GMT
1. Mage side, because oppression, unjustice, abuse of power. 2. I hate oppression, unjustice and abuse of power, not the Templars. The Templars are victim too. 3. Not really (except one-two choices – for example once at the end of DA2) 4. It's clearly not same as skin colour or sexual orientation, because of congenital power. Balance? I think: no much people want to be uncontrolable abomination, so, not that much the danger, than this is seems. And don't forget: so much people have more strengt, than his neighbor, or have weapon, and despite most of them don't kill his/her neighbor for money, for anything. Then: need police, registration etc, but innocent people/children imprisonment, as a "preventive measure" is not acceptable, nor a solution. 5. The Circles are collected mages in one place. Then around the Circles the Veil is weaker as I see. This is +1 point for the argument: the Circles are dangerous. In the Circles live a bunch of the stressed, desperate, angry mages. Not a good combination. Need more Circles, but as schools and libraries. 6. a) But this is the only way: the cooperation. The commoners must to learn to live together with mages, and mages must to learn together with commoners. First of all will happen some accidents, it's inevitable. This is the price of the freedom. 7. Of course, in Tevinter my characters also will protect the oppressed innocents.
I like to play as rebel.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Sept 30, 2016 19:33:05 GMT
I can't answer the questions in the context of the DA universe, because a) I don't self-insert, so my like/dislike is me, outside the universe, using meta-reasons. FWIW, my first FRP run is always a mage. I like magic as a concept because, ultimately, it's a creative/destructive yin/yang expression of will that's (usually) acquired through study and intellectual effort, rather than physical effort. That appeals to me. Magic that's innate or unearned is less appealing -- which is why I'm not as interested in superhero games. That's not to say that I don't also like games that are purely physical expressions of will. For example, Batman:Arkham City is one of my favorite games. I enjoyed the challenge of the Freeflow combat system, trying to rack up the combo counter as high as possible. In Witcher games, my first run is always heavy into Signs -- the equivalent of magic, but my second run is usually all speed/finesse swordwork with little or no investment in Signs. So it's not that I dislike Templars. I feel the same way about Templars that I do about Grey Wardens who are warriors. Warriors are much of a muchness to me and given a choice, I'd play a mage over a warrior, at least until I'm bored with playing mages. Of the warrior classes in DAI, I happen to like Templar best, but no surprise, mainly because of the Wrath/Purge wombo-combo, which for all intents and purposes is magic. I'm interested, to a certain extent, in the narrative and drama around the mage/templar schism, but that's all background color to me. And since I skipped DA2 and never played it, I don't have first-hand experience of the origin of the schism. It's all just a second-hand history lesson to me. I don't buy into the schism and don't feel obligated to dislike Templars just because I like mages.
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Post by hammerstorm on Sept 30, 2016 19:41:49 GMT
I was going to answer but Cyonan already said most of what I think. I will add that I think the templars 2 biggest weaknesses is for me: 1, the religious dogma that they are taught from young age. The solution for that is of course to remove the templars from the chantry (not easy but we must start somewhere), and change teachings. 2, Lyrium. The need of Lyrium and the following addiction is a big problem. The solution (from my perspective), is that instead of templars they become seekers (sort of), from what I understand Seekers don't need Lyrium and are harder (impossible?) to possess. while it's not easy and will take a lot of time and resources I think this would allow for a better and safer group of guardians. And if they did allowed mages in the templars (new seekers) they would have a bigger advantage against enemies.
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Post by opuspace on Sept 30, 2016 20:53:22 GMT
I don't think the Circles are irredeemable. It has a lot of good ideas that are tainted by really godawful approaches. My biggest gripe with the Circles is that they are a school, a refuge and a prison all in one. There's not enough distinction between criminal and someone in need of help. The selective treatment is another appalling feature. Who is allowed to have contact with their families according to status and who gets shunted off into isolation where they are vulnerable to abuse and exploitation by those watching them needs to change. A third is the lack of oversight on the guardians. Seekers are already too similar to Templars in mentality and training and with the practice of Templars distancing themselves as much as possible from the mages, it's feeding into a practice of dehumanizing people who are just as scared of crossing a line. That's not to say the Templars are wrong to be worried. They should be. There will always be need for educating mages on how to control their abilities and there are always going to be mages who abuse their power. Mundanes need protection just as much as mages. But it's a waste on both sides. Abominations can wipe out too many Templars and if they had magical backup and expertise from trusted mages, they'd be a far more effective counter against rogue threats. Tevinter already has a mage dominated country so it adds to the need for Ferelden and Orlais to have their magical knowledge updated if only to stave off conquest. Getting mages to cooperate with the system by having them police each other would also take a large burden off the Templars. Encourage mages to take more responsibility for their actions and getting them involved with society will help connection and understanding between both sides. There'll be less "us vs them", less fear if they are familiarized with each other and the mystery is removed. If parenting psychology is any indication, an authoritarian approach is sabotaging the goal of keeping magical disasters in check. Letting mages have more say in an authoritative method is worth trying since strong arming them proved disastrous. That's my guess anyway as to how it could be improved.
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Post by HYR on Oct 1, 2016 3:57:13 GMT
Armchair psychology of mage/Templar fans --
Mages: Nerds Templars: Jocks
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Post by Ieldra on Oct 1, 2016 6:39:25 GMT
I have somewhat philosophical reasons for my mage preference:
(1) Mages represent autonomy, Templars represent authority. No matter how bad / not so bad the mages' treatment by the Templars is, I tend to favor the former over the latter.
(2) Magic represents *increased autonomy* (by their magic). That I find highly desirable regardless of any other considerations. I actively and passionately reject the message told by the story of the Golden City that people shouldn't attempt "usurp the Maker's power". I see "stealing power from the gods" as a virtuous undertaking if it's done to gain more autonomy for yourself and others rather than to suppress others' autonomy.
(3) Templars represent *illegitimate* authority for me, mainly because it's based on religion, and that it's a religion that has an axe to grind with magic because of its history doesn't help.
As for the practical problems of managing magic in everyday life, there are two principles I'd follow:
(1) The mageborn must be trained. However, I don't accept the Chantry as an authority to organize that training. The mageborn should organize their own training, possibly in competition with the Chantry and maybe others. During the training, it may be necessary to prevent the trainees from leaving, but the school must not be a prison-like environment. Isolation breeds disregard on the inside and fear on the outside. The Circles as they were cause the problems they were intended to solve.
(2) Nobody must be punished without having done something that merits punishment. It would be naive to believe that no mageborn would ever abuse their power, but punishment must come after the crime. If that comes at some cost to others, that can't be changed, and people can only do their best to minimize those costs. After all, we could probably prevent many crimes in RL if everyone had a surveillance implant or something else by which they could be tracked all the time. Not having any strong personal surveillance of everyone probably costs quite a few lives per year, and still we, as a rule, consider that cost acceptable.
More maybe later. Have to go....
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2016 8:56:31 GMT
1. Within the context of the DA universe, why do you prefer Templars or Mages? I side with the mages because the situation they're in is more harmful to Thedas, than it is helpful. I think over the years the original intent for the circle has been corrupted and there are abuses to the new system that should not be allowed. Having mages as part of Thedas society is better than locking them away and alienating them. If they feel a connection to the people, they would be less likely to fear them or turn on them.
2. Is it simply preference, or do you actively dislike the other? If so, what specifically do you hate? I don't hate the Templars, there have been many decent men and women coming out of the order, I DO challenge their teachings and training though. I think somewhere along the line their teachings have been altered and they are being improperly trained. Many of them are caught up in a power struggle and they are being used to gain power for their leaders and not to fulfill their purpose.
3. Have you played both? If yes, did it give you any new insight? If not, why?
Yes. And what I saw was corrupt leadership on both sides.
For the Mage fans:
4. Many Mage fans have likened the Circle to various forms of real world discrimination. Yet, like mutants in X-Men, magic in Dragon Age gives a clear inborn advantage to those with over those without. Being able to shoot fire or control minds is NOT the same as having a different skin color or sexuality. This false equivalency can give the impression of "they're just holding us down because we really are better than they are". How do you address this imbalance?
Yes, mages are powerful, but to try and shelter them from their own identities and make them ashamed of them is more harmful than helpful. They should be getting educated in their abilities and not have their education censored or be taught with biased teachings. If they better understand their powers and not fear them, there's more of a chance they'll make better choices.
5. Mage fans can often treat magic the same as superpowers, completely ignoring it's context within DA lore; i.e., the necessity of lyrium and/or blood, how it can weaken the Veil, and the constant threat of demonic possession. They rationalize that since as Players they can easily avoid such pratfalls, everyone should be able to. This dismisses that Player Characters are always given agency that most NPCs never have, or that entitled players would whine if they where subject to the same restrictions. Your response?
I think that there should be solutions, they just haven't been written in yet. If all the game is going to be about is Templars vs Mages, with no viable solution then playing it is just a waste of time. If what you're asking is, do I think my character should have the same vulnerabilities as NPC's, then no. If that were the case, then obviously the game is meant to be unwinnable and there's no point going any further with it.
6. When asked how they would protect the average citizen from magical abuse, several of the most common answers have huge holes:
A. "Mages and Templars will work together". That might work in a more idealized and black and white setting, but Dragon Age is an adult story with complex characters and black and grey conflicts.
B. "Mages will protect mundanes". Even getting past how patronizing this sounds, as if those without magic are helpless children, this position is illogical due to normals outnumbering Mages 100 to 1. By the time your Mage Cop got to a town being terrorized by a Blood Mage or Abomination, it would be too late.
C. "Normals and Mages will stay away from each other". Ignoring the moral implications of how segregation only reinforces ignorance and hatred, eventually expanding populations competing for resources will bring everyone right back right where they started.
D. "I don't care about average joes, I play fantasy RPGs to imagine myself among special people". That's potentially valid for a personal story, but it's crap world building and breaks immersion for the rest of us.
E. "Mundanes don't deserve protection! They've kept us down for too long, are now they're going too pay!" Hey, I'm all for allowing Players to become the Villain if they choose. Just don't expect the rest of the world to accept it just because you are the Protagonist.
How would you address these issues?
Locate, study and follow abuses back to their source and deal with that. Search out solutions and look to the past for ideas on how certain things were handled. Properly educating mages would also help because if they understand the full situation, they may be able to assist in coming up with more solutions.
7. Most likely we will be going to Tevinter in DA4, where Mages rule. Will you still help the oppressed underdog and give mundanes a leg up in the Imperium, or preserve the status quo for "Mage Power"? My intent would be to remove the corruption, I have no preference on who it saves.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 1, 2016 11:13:10 GMT
I'm always curious as to why people pick certain positions in fandom, and few in Dragon Age are as polarizing as Mages versus Templars. Just for fun, I'd like to gage why fans picked their respective team here, and how they respond to critics and divergent storylines.
1. Within the context of the DA universe, why do you prefer Templars or Mages? Most of those who are actually trying to protect the powerless are Templars, probably because that's the worldview most consistent with that goal. [/p] 2. Is it simply preference, or do you actively dislike the other? If so, what specifically do you hate? [/quote] I don't actually hate mages as a whole. A lot of them annoy me, but the group as a whole is too fractured for me to feel one way about all of them. [/p] 3. Have you played both? If yes, did it give you any new insight? If not, why? [/quote] Playing a pro-freedom mage exposed me to Lysas, who is a sane, reasonable mage who just wants to act like a normal person would. It reminded me that not everyone who wants mage freedom is the sort of mage I'm trying to keep from the general population. Though unfortunately I don't know if I can let that change all that much about my approach. [/p] For the Templar fans:
8. Protecting normals from magical abuse is good, but many Templar fans refuse to see the benefit of magical research and development to make the world a better place. Technology, medicine, agriculture, or even *gasp* magic itself? Newsflash guys, Mages don't want to get possessed anymore more than you do . But since even the smallest Magical R&D is forbidden in the South, how are they supposed to make meaningful contributions to society? Funny how Templar fans forget how one of their best defenses against mental domination, the Litany of Adralla, came from Tevinter . [/quote] I don't actually support banning magical research. In particular I think understanding what it is about the Seeker initiation ritual that prevents Seekers from becoming possessed might make the Circles less necessary. If I knew a specific mage to be morally good and immune to possession, why would I keep that one mage in the Circle against their will? [/p] 9. Templar fans agree with the Chantry's position of discouraging Mage couples and stealing their children under the reasoning that the Mages would breed more Mages than they could handle. How do you still justify this when, within the lore this did not happen in Tevinter? Yeah, even with their obsession with magical eugenics, Mages are still the minority in the Imperium. [/quote] That's not why I'm leery about mages bearing and raising children. I'm leery about it because if something bad happens, you don't want the children to be underfoot when the Templars and Senior Enchanters have to put out a fire (or put down an abomination.) Especially if the worst happens: the fewer children are in a Circle that gets so bad it needs to be Annulled, the better it is all around. That, and because a kid who didn't inherit magic and grew up expecting to due to all their friends and family and role models having it would probably never completely get over the heartbreak. [/p] 10. I know this is a stretch, but with Templar opposition magical research and families, do you ever consider that you could very well be holding back humanity from evolving to the next step? [/quote] Are you speaking of a world where anyone can be approached by a demon at any time and become an abomination? And where everyone has access to a form of power that, due to blood magic being apparently the strongest form, works best for horrible people? That's definitely a step, but I'm not sure it's a step forward. [/p] 11. Most importantly, in addition to magic a lot of Templar fans have issues with non human races, spirits, and the Fade. Fantasy concepts in a fantasy world. I agree that for variety's sake, there should be more reality based RPGs; i.e. cops and robbers, soldiers and spies, etcetera. But if you hate fantasy so much, why are you even here ? [/quote] I'd actually like to see the Circle sending mages out to do good. Mage healing for the poor, mages sent out with Templar escorts to handle bandits... and at any rate I don't actually hate or fear the non-human races who are close enough to human that they can be approached the same way.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 1, 2016 12:10:49 GMT
1. I do not side with either group as a whole. I am concerned about people. There are good and bad mages; they are good and bad Templars. There are also corrupt and heroic nobles, peasants, elves, dwarves and qunari. With regard to the distinction drawn in southern Thedas between mages and mundanes, that is a false situation brought about by Chantry dogma. Both Templars and mages have been badly used by the Chantry down the years. A lot of the problems that have occurred have been caused by the Chantry misinterpreting Andrastrian teaching for political ends. Southern nobility, who are largely non-mages, do not want to risk low born mages challenging their hold on power, so they ensure they are locked up safely from an early age, completely out of touch with their communities that they might identify with. The downside is having to allow their own children to be taken into the Circles but the children of nobility generally have a very different experience to that of peasant mages (plus those low born mages like Vivienne who cultivate the support of the nobility). For a start off they are allowed to keep contact with their families. This will largely remove the possibility of abuse at the hands of Templars because there is someone to raise a fuss if they are. Their parents can arrange for them to be watched over by handpicked Templars, likely relatives. They are far more likely to be allowed out for visits home or to participate in social gatherings. The only thing they are really denied is the ability to inherit land or assume positions of power in government. For the nobility this is only really an issue if they are an only child. Otherwise, as stated below for Templars, the Circle was actually a useful way of getting younger siblings, who might have been a threat to the heir, out of the way.
2. As an organisation I dislike the Templars because of the way they select their members. This is done entirely on religious fervour rather than moral fibre. There also seems to be a tendency for devout noble families to use it as a dumping ground for younger children for whom they have no other purpose. It is easy to see how a young noble with rather sadistic tendencies, which would be a problem in normal society, can be easily disposed of into the Templars, where they can conveniently be forgotten about. They can then indulge themselves with impunity if their own Commander is willing to turn a blind eye or even tacitly approve of their actions. Outside of the Circles, having Templars around to hunt down dangerous mages might be useful. However, to be a true Templar requires the person to become addicted to lyrium. I am yet to be convinced that the benefits of doing so outweigh the disadvantages. For the Templars to be an effective magic regulation squad in the wider community would require substantial numbers. Otherwise the same problem arises as getting mages to police themselves; they are too thinly spread. Therefore, it seems to me that it would be better to train ordinary soldiers in how to cope more effectively against magical attacks when they occur. Don't get me wrong, mages do need to be properly trained so they are not a danger to themselves or others and if they want to indulge in magical research this does need to be carefully monitored and regulated. That is why you need education of mages, just not confining of all mages away from their communities permanently.
3. I frequently play mages but have only played a Templar once, as Hawke, because I am not overly fond of playing the specialist warrior. My mages are always very upstanding citizens. I have never indulged in blood magic. I do not side with mages as a group because as I say above, they are too varied in their outlook and morals. I do oppose the Chantry's dogma about mages because it is a perversion of the Chant. They also demonise mages whilst totally ignoring the excesses of the nobility. To my mind the Orlesian nobles and their Game is not different to the machinations of the Magisterium. The Orlesians use bards and poison; the Magisters use blood magic. People still get hurt, frequently those who are simply servants/slaves who are unfortunate enough to be on the wrong side, or even the right side and regarded as expendable. The Chevaliers of Orlais abuse their power and do so with the assurance that they have been given divine mandate to do so.
To be honest I feel that Andraste would be appalled at what the Chantries (both north and south) have done with her teaching. She condemned abuse of power, not simply abuse of magic.
If you leave aside the stupid bit of lore they introduced in DAI about Dalish dumping excess mage children because of their fear of them becoming possessed, it is clear from a study of the fringe societies in Thedas that many of the fears people have in mainstream Thedas are just political scaremongering.
The Dalish are led by Keepers. They do not, on the whole, act as dominant tyrants but teachers and guides for their communities. This is in fact in keeping with their role in the Dales, when they were not the political leaders but priesthood and preservers of the lore (hence the word "Keeper"). This may even be how the Evanuris began, hence the stories of them as benign guides in survival to the early elves. The Dalish feel each clan needs a Keeper. This actually has a practical aspect beyond the idea that their supreme leader should be a mage. The Keepers preserve magical healing lore and can fulfil such a role in their community. They can provide magical wards around the encampment to warn of approaching danger. They can work with their warriors to protect their community from enemies. The running of the clan generally is done co-operatively by various elders, representing the different professions within the community.
The Avaar use spirits to actually train their young mages. So much for dangerous possession. Each clan would appear to have an auger who is a mage and dispenses wisdom, particularly interpreting signs in nature and consulting with the spirit world. Yet, as with the Dales, the mage lore keeper does not lord it over the non mages and their political leader would appear to be a mundane, presumably chosen on merit. Since non-mages clearly outnumber mages in communities where there is no bias over trying to breed them, there are always going to be sufficient non-magical warriors around to deal with mages who abuse their power with the community.
The Rivaini also have a very positive view of mages and possession. There they have seers, called wise women, who freely practice magic, even to the extent of allowing themselves to be deliberately possessed in order to gain wisdom. Apparently the majority of the population are quite happy with this and do not have an adverse view of the mage in a position of authority. Hence the Chantry never really getting an hold here.
Looking at the experience of these three fringe groups, the Dalish, the Avaar and the Rivaini, would seem to confirm that all the problems that are associated with mages have come about through prejudice fostered by the southern Chantry, using the example of Tevinter to reinforce it. However, whether mage or non-mage the big problem always seems to me to be the abuse of power, wherever it might originate. The Evanuris became corrupted by power but since everyone in their society was a mage, it was not a case of mages being stronger than non-mages, just a clique of powerful individuals ensuring their hold on power by ever more corrupt methods. The same is true of Tevinter, where things are even more skewed by the fact that they purposely breed for mages, thus creating an unnatural balance between mage and non-mage. However, just as not all non-mages are equal in natural talent, so is the case with the mages of Tevinter. Some Altus have negligible magical ability, whilst some slaves (like Calpernia) have considerably superior natural talent to the mages who rule over them. So in a way, just as in the south, it is a case of the nobility keeping a hold on power by virtue of the system rather than necessarily superior ability keeping them there.
Solas maintains that every organisation, however benign when they start, will become corrupt over time. This is a very cynical way of viewing the world. If a society is organised so that everyone's contribution is valued, whether mage or non-mage and people don't simply rule because their parents did, then Thedas would be a much better place. Mages should be discouraged from indulging in magic that is harmful to the community as a whole but the suggestion that only mages are guilty of abusing their power or will always end up on top is a myth. You only have to look at somewhere like Antiva. Who rules there? The Crows, a cabal of assassins. People don't attack Antiva, even Tevinter (who are after all very close neighbours) because they fear the Crows. Yet when someone attacks who is not aware of their reputation, like the Qun, they are largely successful.
I would also point out that the reason that certain groups stay in power is because the lower ranks are complicit in keeping them there. In Tevinter everyone supports the system in their own way. Laetans are on their level of society because they happened to produce a mage in the family and then support a system that allows them to rise as a result. Ditto the Soporati who hope to produce a mage. Even slaves will support their masters if they feel it will advance them (just as servants do in Orlais). The fact that Dorian claims that many people opt for slavery over poverty only reinforces the system.
It is not confining or not confining mages that prevents the advance of society but the way it is structured. Thedas need a hefty political shakeup across the board, not just in Tevinter. It happened with Andraste and Shartan but unfortunately they were killed before the revolution was complete and future generations of the Chantry betrayed their vision. There was another big shakeup with the Qun but thankfully that didn't succeed, since it is just another form of oppression that keeps people confined to roles determined by others.
There is no such thing as the perfect society but things could be a lot better in Thedas than they are at present and mages do not have to be confined from society or kept strictly suppressed in order for it to occur.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2016 13:38:05 GMT
1. Within the context of the DA universe, why do you prefer Templars or Mages? Neither. Both are sides can be idiotic. 2. Is it simply preference, or do you actively dislike the other? If so, what specifically do you hate? Fiona. Nobody else in the world deserves my hate but that incompetent woman. 3. Have you played both? If yes, did it give you any new insight? If not, why? That people underestimate how truly sympathic the Templars are. For the Mage fans: 4. Many Mage fans have likened the Circle to various forms of real world discrimination. Yet, like mutants in X-Men, magic in Dragon Age gives a clear inborn advantage to those with over those without. Being able to shoot fire or control minds is NOT the same as having a different skin color or sexuality. This false equivalency can give the impression of "they're just holding us down because we really are better than they are". How do you address this imbalance? No, it's becuase mages are actually a truly valid threat to people in Thedas. I'd say it's no different from them either; the X-Men has proven time and time again how dangerous they can be when left unchecked by 'normal' humans. I'd say that the chantry wasn't holding back on them becuase of that notion; they were probably afraid that if they let them go, than they'd turn into abominations and nobody would be there to stop the demon from killing people. 5. Mage fans can often treat magic the same as superpowers, completely ignoring it's context within DA lore; i.e., the necessity of lyrium and/or blood, how it can weaken the Veil, and the constant threat of demonic possession. They rationalize that since as Players they can easily avoid such pratfalls, everyone should be able to. This dismisses that Player Characters are always given agency that most NPCs never have, or that entitled players would whine if they where subject to the same restrictions. Your response? That I'll continue to play as mages. *shrugs* if I get possessed, it's my own doing than; nobody else's. 6. When asked how they would protect the average citizen from magical abuse, several of the most common answers have huge holes: A. "Mages and Templars will work together". That might work in a more idealized and black and white setting, but Dragon Age is an adult story with complex characters and black and grey conflicts. They probably will, someday, once mages are allowed to use anti-magic and become Templars themsleves. B. "Mages will protect mundanes". Even getting past how patronizing this sounds, as if those without magic are helpless children, this position is illogical due to normals outnumbering Mages 100 to 1. By the time your Mage Cop got to a town being terrorized by a Blood Mage or Abomination, it would be too late. They could station mages with anti-magic abilities in towns, and than that would save having the full C. "Normals and Mages will stay away from each other". Ignoring the moral implications of how segregation only reinforces ignorance and hatred, eventually expanding populations competing for resources will bring everyone right back right where they started. Indeed. I agre D. "I don't care about average joes, I play fantasy RPGs to imagine myself among special people". That's potentially valid for a personal story, but it's crap world building and breaks immersion for the rest of us. Hawke? Lol. E. "Mundanes don't deserve protection! They've kept us down for too long, are now they're going too pay!" Hey, I'm all for allowing Players to become the Villain if they choose. Just don't expect the rest of the world to accept it just because you are the Protagonist. Yeah... How would you address these issues? 7. Most likely we will be going to Tevinter in DA4, where Mages rule. Will you still help the oppressed underdog and give mundanes a leg up in the Imperium, or preserve the status quo for "Mage Power"? Neither, my next Hero is going to be so sick of these Debates, that's he'll shout at the next person who gives him those drafted quests for the ''mages'. Although, he's gonna be super duper anti slaverly though, as well as being totally about the underdogs; heck, he'll be like DAA Anders again (my next hero is going to be a elven Mage) For the Templar fans: 8. Protecting normals from magical abuse is good, but many Templar fans refuse to see the benefit of magical research and development to make the world a better place. Technology, medicine, agriculture, or even *gasp* magic itself? Newsflash guys, Mages don't want to get possessed anymore more than you do . But since even the smallest Magical R&D is forbidden in the South, how are they supposed to make meaningful contributions to society? Funny how Templar fans forget how one of their best defenses against mental domination, the Litany of Adralla, came from Tevinter . I was just suggesting putting the mages in alongside the Templars, cause they can use ant-magic 9. Templar fans agree with the Chantry's position of discouraging Mage couples and stealing their children under the reasoning that the Mages would breed more Mages than they could handle. How do you still justify this when, within the lore this did not happen in Tevinter? Yeah, even with their obsession with magical eugenics, Mages are still the minority in the Imperium. Everyone is now a Mage *throws confetti eveywhere* 10. I know this is a stretch, but with Templar opposition magical research and families, do you ever consider that you could very well be holding back humanity from evolving to the next step? No, cause of Solas. 11. Most importantly, in addition to magic a lot of Templar fans have issues with non human races, spirits, and the Fade. Fantasy concepts in a fantasy world. I agree that for variety's sake, there should be more reality based RPGs; i.e. cops and robbers, soldiers and spies, etcetera. But if you hate fantasy so much, why are you even here ? I don't have an issue with any of those things to be honest.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 1, 2016 15:57:29 GMT
That fact, that Fiona was able to join to Tevinters (and some mages agree with this decision) was also part of the Chantry responsibility. Why? Because as most of Templars and some of mages believe, that the magic is a curse (this mages are self-hate brainwashed victims of the Chanry's Circle system), just as some mages believe, that ALL chantry teaching is a rough lie (they are those, who can't accept, that they are cursed, and they are deserve the punisment because of their congenital abilites). Those latter mages believe that Tevinter is a haven of all mages. We know: this is not true. To access the full citizenship of Tevinter, need to serve Tevinter. (Similar as in the ancient Rome.)
In a situation in which the Mages were in the Circles, there are only few people, who are able to objectively judge.
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Post by HYR on Oct 1, 2016 16:51:00 GMT
Oh, but allow me to fill out this questionnaire... I'm always curious as to why people pick certain positions in fandom, and few in Dragon Age are as polarizing as Mages versus Templars. Just for fun, I'd like to gage why fans picked their respective team here, and how they respond to critics and divergent storylines.
1. Within the context of the DA universe, why do you prefer Templars or Mages?
I am fairly sympathetic to both sides but have a preference for the Templars.
2. Is it simply preference, or do you actively dislike the other? If so, what specifically do you hate?
No active dislike/hate, but it is worth mentioning that I originally started out a mage supporter, and part of the reason my opinion shifted is because the mages would just continually let me down.
3. Have you played both? If yes, did it give you any new insight? If not, why
Yes, actually playing as a mage made me a little less pro-mage than I started. Whereas previously I was like "Wow, mages a really useful. Why does the Chantry have to confine them so much?" and was planning on playing as a big malcontent mage, I immediately found myself thinking "I have a lot of responsibility with this magic. I ought to be very careful with how I use it." So the idea of getting all combative against authority did not last long at all.
I have never played as a warrior with Templar powers. It just seems boring.
For the Mage fans:
4. Many Mage fans have likened the Circle to various forms of real world discrimination. Yet, like mutants in X-Men, magic in Dragon Age gives a clear inborn advantage to those with over those without. Being able to shoot fire or control minds is NOT the same as having a different skin color or sexuality. This false equivalency (...)
Agreed.
5. Mage fans can often treat magic the same as superpowers, completely ignoring it's context within DA lore; i.e., the necessity of lyrium and/or blood, how it can weaken the Veil, and the constant threat of demonic possession. They rationalize that since as Players they can easily avoid such pratfalls, everyone should be able to. This dismisses that Player Characters are always given agency that most NPCs never have, or that entitled players would whine if they where subject to the same restrictions. Your response?
Yeah, gameplay does have a tendency to distort how players perceive the lore and setting.
6. When asked how they would protect the average citizen from magical abuse, several of the most common answers have huge holes:
A. "Mages and Templars will work together". That might work in a more idealized and black and white setting, but Dragon Age is an adult story with complex characters and black and grey conflicts.
B. "Mages will protect mundanes". Even getting past how patronizing this sounds, as if those without magic are helpless children, this position is illogical due to normals outnumbering Mages 100 to 1. By the time your Mage Cop got to a town being terrorized by a Blood Mage or Abomination, it would be too late.
C. "Normals and Mages will stay away from each other". Ignoring the moral implications of how segregation only reinforces ignorance and hatred, eventually expanding populations competing for resources will bring everyone right back right where they started.
D. "I don't care about average joes, I play fantasy RPGs to imagine myself among special people". That's potentially valid for a personal story, but it's crap world building and breaks immersion for the rest of us.
E. "Mundanes don't deserve protection! They've kept us down for too long, are now they're going too pay!" Hey, I'm all for allowing Players to become the Villain if they choose. Just don't expect the rest of the world to accept it just because you are the Protagonist.
How would you address these issues?
Well for one thing, I believe that if a mage passes all their trials, they should be allowed to leave the Circle freely.
As far as protecting people against magical threats, I also believe that mages should be part of the Templar order in some capacity while they are with the Circle, be that out on the front-lines with Templar soldiers, or in the background as healers or doing some sort of administrative duties. This kind of cooperation is key to dispelling an "Us vs. Them" mentality that I see among Templars, as well as instilling in mages more responsibility and initiative toward combating hostile magic.
7. Most likely we will be going to Tevinter in DA4, where Mages rule. Will you still help the oppressed underdog and give mundanes a leg up in the Imperium, or preserve the status quo for "Mage Power"?
lol
For the Templar fans:
8. Protecting normals from magical abuse is good, but many Templar fans refuse to see the benefit of magical research and development to make the world a better place. Technology, medicine, agriculture, or even *gasp* magic itself? Newsflash guys, Mages don't want to get possessed anymore more than you do . But since even the smallest Magical R&D is forbidden in the South, how are they supposed to make meaningful contributions to society? Funny how Templar fans forget how one of their best defenses against mental domination, the Litany of Adralla, came from Tevinter .
Well no, I do think many (if not all) of those restrictions need be loosened. I believe in regulation, not neo-Luddism.
9. Templar fans agree with the Chantry's position of discouraging Mage couples and stealing their children under the reasoning that the Mages would breed more Mages than they could handle. How do you still justify this when, within the lore this did not happen in Tevinter? Yeah, even with their obsession with magical eugenics, Mages are still the minority in the Imperium.
Yeah, no, I do not support this. I do think mage children should still have to be processed through the Circle or a comparable institution, but I would also be willing to let "processed" mage parents home-school their mage children -- ala Hawkes.
10. I know this is a stretch, but with Templar opposition magical research and families, do you ever consider that you could very well be holding back humanity from evolving to the next step?
Yes, but I do not agree with that opposition anyway. In fact, another Templar supporter and I hit on an idea we dubbed "The Black Circle" for some research into the real arcane stuff. A real hush-hush sort of research cell.
11. Most importantly, in addition to magic a lot of Templar fans have issues with non human races, spirits, and the Fade. Fantasy concepts in a fantasy world. I agree that for variety's sake, there should be more reality based RPGs; i.e. cops and robbers, soldiers and spies, etcetera. But if you hate fantasy so much, why are you even here ?
Please differentiate between players' political beliefs about the setting and their enjoyment/appreciation of the same things as story devices. As an example, I think it is foolish to be too trusting of spirits and do not recruit Cole when playing a rational-minded Inquisitor, but I nonetheless enjoy having them as part of the setting.
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Post by oyabun on Oct 1, 2016 17:07:01 GMT
I actively and passionately reject the message told by the story of the Golden City that people shouldn't attempt "usurp the Maker's power". I see "stealing power from the gods" as a virtuous undertaking if it's done to gain more autonomy for yourself and others rather than to suppress others' autonomy. That was dramatically stupid and act performed by lunatics who received the blight not the power of any god,if the gods really exist in this setting it will also be very naive to think that they will allow to inferior beings to stole their power that easily. If those 7 maggots would have stayed at their home that day instead to start mass sacrifices all over the empire to reach that city not even a single darkspawn would have come to exist nor the GW nor the Archdemons.In Thedas pretty much everyone is a victim of their recklessness. Mages like these are the most dangerous kind,always creating threats for others for their ridiculous ambitions.
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Post by Toyish Batphone on Oct 1, 2016 17:07:36 GMT
1. Within the context of the DA universe, why do you prefer Templars or Mages?My favorite class is the Mage - I am not strong, I am not agile, I am not dexterous. However, I love to learn, read and think - I do it on my own free with without anyone telling me to, the more esoteric the subject, the better. Plus, I would say that my willpower is strong and I have a good capability to delay gratification for long-term goals. Put simply, I like playing as a Mage because if magic was real I would study it and I think I would make a capable mage, not for any other reasons. This also means that I do not automatically side with Mages, for it is as absurd as suggesting that I automatically side with brown skinned people just because I was born as one. As for Templars, I respect their capabilities and I know why they are around - I just hate the religious bullshit associated with the Templar Order. As a Templar, you are here to primarily deal with dangerous magic - You are essentially a specialized guard + soldier. Why do you have to invoke Andraste or the Maker to do what you do ? It is truly silly. 2. Is it simply preference, or do you actively dislike the other? If so, what specifically do you hate?I dislike specific peoples within both groups. I dislike the fact that Templars have to rely on religious bullshit to police magic - Neither Andraste nor the Maker told anyone to drink Lyrium to fight magic. I challenge anyone to find any verse that says anything like this, I guarantee you will not find one. Templar is simply a fighting style against very specific forces and creatures. I dislike the fact that some Mages feel that they are somehow special or superior over others just because they have magic, if anything mages should heed Uncle Ben's words a lot more - With great power comes great responsibility. 3. Have you played both? If yes, did it give you any new insight? If not, why?
I pick between Mages or Templars depending on the situation. In DAO, I went for mages because the army of allies I had already have warriors and rogues. In DA2, I went for mages because Anders was not from the Kirkwall Circle, which makes the idea of annulling the Circle stupid. In DAI, I went for Templar conscription because they were the safer option for closing the Breach - Powering up magic we barely understand is idiotic, it is far better to suppress and weaken the Breach itself. Also, punching a cleric in the face is less worse than selling yourself and people who you are in charge of into indentured servitude. 4. Many Mage fans have likened the Circle to various forms of real world discrimination. Yet, like mutants in X-Men, magic in Dragon Age gives a clear inborn advantage to those with over those without. Being able to shoot fire or control minds is NOT the same as having a different skin color or sexuality. This false equivalency can give the impression of "they're just holding us down because we really are better than they are". How do you address this imbalance?The imbalance is addressed by correctly pointing out the reality that many mage fans are ridiculous and preposterous. 5. Mage fans can often treat magic the same as superpowers, completely ignoring it's context within DA lore; i.e., the necessity of lyrium and/or blood, how it can weaken the Veil, and the constant threat of demonic possession. They rationalize that since as Players they can easily avoid such pratfalls, everyone should be able to. This dismisses that Player Characters are always given agency that most NPCs never have, or that entitled players would whine if they where subject to the same restrictions. Your response?My response is the same to question 4 - Many mage fans are ridiculous and preposterous. 6. When asked how they would protect the average citizen from magical abuse, several of the most common answers have huge holes:
A. "Mages and Templars will work together". That might work in a more idealized and black and white setting, but Dragon Age is an adult story with complex characters and black and grey conflicts.
B. "Mages will protect mundanes". Even getting past how patronizing this sounds, as if those without magic are helpless children, this position is illogical due to normals outnumbering Mages 100 to 1. By the time your Mage Cop got to a town being terrorized by a Blood Mage or Abomination, it would be too late.
C. "Normals and Mages will stay away from each other". Ignoring the moral implications of how segregation only reinforces ignorance and hatred, eventually expanding populations competing for resources will bring everyone right back right where they started.
D. "I don't care about average joes, I play fantasy RPGs to imagine myself among special people". That's potentially valid for a personal story, but it's crap world building and breaks immersion for the rest of us.
E. "Mundanes don't deserve protection! They've kept us down for too long, are now they're going too pay!" Hey, I'm all for allowing Players to become the Villain if they choose. Just don't expect the rest of the world to accept it just because you are the Protagonist.
How would you address these issues?The simplest way to protect people from magical abuse is to have the general populace be aware of magic, respect it and know some basics in dealing with it or countering it. This means having people who are trained to fight magic everywhere - not just within the Chantry, not just limited to mages who specialize in spirit magic and not just within certain slaves in Tevinter who are trained to be perrepatae. Take fire for instance. Normal people know what fire is and when a small fire breaks out, they can deal with it themselves. However, if the fire is out of control, they call the firefighters to deal with it. Firefighters are not beholden to a particular religion or social class, its a job that trained people who are deemed sufficiently capable can perform. Now replace fire with magic and you have the solution to protect the average citizen from magical threats. There should be people with training to fight magic amongst the city watch, village guard, army, etc. Is this a perfect solution ? No, there will be casualties in the same way the firefighters are perfect. However, we do not live in a perfect world and this is the best we have. As for the Circle, they should be treated the same way we treat private universities. Private universities have their own security - Private security forces, not religious security forces. Just imagine the Papal Swiss Guard in charge of Harvard or Cambridge - Ridiculous. Similarly, a Circle should have its own security force that are not tethered to a religion - It can be mages trained in spirit magic or it can be Templars or it can be perrepatae. Privatization for the win. 7. Most likely we will be going to Tevinter in DA4, where Mages rule. Will you still help the oppressed underdog and give mundanes a leg up in the Imperium, or preserve the status quo for "Mage Power"?
I truly have no idea what I should do until I see the story. Picking a side before the story is presented is a recipe for disaster. For the Templar fans:
8. Protecting normals from magical abuse is good, but many Templar fans refuse to see the benefit of magical research and development to make the world a better place. Technology, medicine, agriculture, or even *gasp* magic itself? Newsflash guys, Mages don't want to get possessed anymore more than you do . But since even the smallest Magical R&D is forbidden in the South, how are they supposed to make meaningful contributions to society? Funny how Templar fans forget how one of their best defenses against mental domination, the Litany of Adralla, came from Tevinter .The problem with the Templar Order is that they are tied to religion. As a result, instead of being openly honest about their goal - To supervise and fight magic, they have to engage in pointless religious bullshit which results in Templars being recruited not for their morals or ethical values, but for their religious zealotry. The only real solution the Templar Order needs is to decouple themselves from the Chantry and be part of the general populace - Be amongst the mages, be amongst the city watch, be amongst the village guards, be in the army of a nation, etc. 9. Templar fans agree with the Chantry's position of discouraging Mage couples and stealing their children under the reasoning that the Mages would breed more Mages than they could handle. How do you still justify this when, within the lore this did not happen in Tevinter? Yeah, even with their obsession with magical eugenics, Mages are still the minority in the Imperium. I am not a Templar fan and I do not justify this. 10. I know this is a stretch, but with Templar opposition magical research and families, do you ever consider that you could very well be holding back humanity from evolving to the next step?
Yes they are and no they are not. Opposition to ethical magical research is holding society back but Templars do not hold humans from evolving to the next step, since evolution is mostly biological unless if you are Ghilan'nain. I propose we have something similar to what the scientific community has with regards to ethics, rules and regulations - Have an ethical standard and follow it.
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lilyonce
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The whole universe is...
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Post by lilyonce on Oct 1, 2016 17:09:31 GMT
1. I believe everyone has certain unalienable rights so I side with the mages because its clear to me their rights are, without adequate justification, being denied.
2. I don't hate the templars. Its a certain strain of templar ideology I am maladjusted to and that particular ideology is the mainstream templar ideology in all DA games. It is only in that way that I am against the templars. If the Templar order adopted an ideology or framework that I agree with I would be for them.
3. I have played both sides. I have been on both sides of this argument and have favored the templars in the past but I clarified my views on other issues and so my view on mages and templars were clarified.
4. Its not a question of power to me its a question of rights and attitudes. People have inalienable rights. Anti-social pathologies whoever expresses them in behavior or belief should be dealt with or monitored but I don't think an anti-social pathology dominates the worldview of the average mage.
5. Lyrium and blood are not necessary to do magic. Though magic has definite potential to be dangerous, I agree. Untrained mages can be very dangerous to others so the Circle in some form is and will always be necessary. The Veil is interesting to me because if magic can affect the nature of the world that says to me that the world is itself magical and everyone can shape it. Its just mages who realize the ability to do it. But the Veil is sensitive to magic and mages should take care not to cause harm in any magics or experimentation they do.
6. If by "huge hole"you mean that no system can ever prevent all harm that could ever be caused by magic then yes every system has a "huge hole", but that is not a reasonable standard to hold magic to or any policing of it in my view.
A. Mages and Templars can work together. I reject the idea that they can't because "this an an adult story". If its an adult story it should show that there are mages and templars that cannot work together and that there are mages and templars that can work together and it should show why they can and why they can't and that in the end it comes down to the ideologies and beliefs the groups hold.
B. I don't think mages should be wholly responsible for the protection or policing of any one group be it mages or non-mages. In positions or councils of authority everyone should have representation. There should be no all mage policing of magic nor should there be all non-mage policing of magic. Its not even practical.
C. I don't support segregation- a period of time for circle training for new mages being the only exception.
D. and E. Everyone has inalienable rights including non-mages.
7. I will be on the side of the oppressed and if there are mages that want to break Tevinter's power system I will take their help. If there are non-mages that want to enslave mages or something like that I will be against them too.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 1, 2016 17:30:19 GMT
1. Within the context of the DA universe, why do you prefer Templars or Mages?My favorite class is the Mage - I am not strong, I am not agile, I am not dexterous. However, I love to learn, read and think - I do it on my own free with without anyone telling me to, the more esoteric the subject, the better. Plus, I would say that my willpower is strong and I have a good capability to delay gratification for long-term goals. Put simply, I like playing as a Mage because if magic was real I would study it and I think I would make a capable mage, not for any other reasons. This also means that I do not automatically side with Mages, for it is as absurd as suggesting that I automatically side with brown skinned people just because I was born as one. As for Templars, I respect their capabilities and I know why they are around - I just hate the religious bullshit associated with the Templar Order. As a Templar, you are here to primarily deal with dangerous magic - You are essentially a specialized guard + soldier. Why do you have to invoke Andraste or the Maker to do what you do ? It is truly silly. [...] No, this not same. You don't need to agree with all mages, but if you are a mage, and you are FREE, and you want to stay be free, then you don't have logical reason, that you agree that your kind live imprisoned/persecuted. That is, until yours is not free, how you can agree with the oppressors? Do you agree that for example the darker-skinned people do sould not eat in the same room with white people – or darker-skinned people don't deserve freedom? ____ But mage issue in DA not same as skin-color issue, because, as I wrote: the mages are dangerous weapons. One similar between this two: the discrimination. But in the first case there is no logical explanation for this, in the second this is exist. The people's afraid from the mages are justified. However the imprisonment of the innocent not be the solution. As long as this practice persists, as a mage, you naturally sided with mages. This not meant, that you agree with all mages.
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Toyish Batphone
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate
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bayonethipshot
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Post by Toyish Batphone on Oct 1, 2016 18:09:24 GMT
1. Within the context of the DA universe, why do you prefer Templars or Mages?My favorite class is the Mage - I am not strong, I am not agile, I am not dexterous. However, I love to learn, read and think - I do it on my own free with without anyone telling me to, the more esoteric the subject, the better. Plus, I would say that my willpower is strong and I have a good capability to delay gratification for long-term goals. Put simply, I like playing as a Mage because if magic was real I would study it and I think I would make a capable mage, not for any other reasons. This also means that I do not automatically side with Mages, for it is as absurd as suggesting that I automatically side with brown skinned people just because I was born as one. As for Templars, I respect their capabilities and I know why they are around - I just hate the religious bullshit associated with the Templar Order. As a Templar, you are here to primarily deal with dangerous magic - You are essentially a specialized guard + soldier. Why do you have to invoke Andraste or the Maker to do what you do ? It is truly silly. [...] No, this not same. You don't need to agree with all mages, but if you are a mage, and you are FREE, and you want to stay be free, then you don't have logical reason, that you agree that your kind live imprisoned/persecuted. That is, until yours is not free, how you can agree with the oppressors? Do you agree that for example the darker-skinned people do sould not eat in the same room with white people – or darker-skinned people don't deserve freedom? ____ But mage issue in DA not same as skin-color issue, because, as i wrote: the mages are dangerous weapons. One similar between this two: the discrimination. But in the first case there is no logical explanation for this, in the second this is exist. The people's afraid from the mages are justified. The imprisonment of the innocent, however, not be the solution. As long as this practice persists, as a mage, you naturally sided with mages. This not meant, that you agree with all mages. Disagreeing with mages even though you are a mage does not mean agreeing with oppressors. Reality is far more complex and nuanced than that. I do not see the Templars as oppressors, I see the pre-Breach explosion Chantry as the oppressor - Which came to become an oppressor due to the machinations of Kordillus Drakon I. Both Mages and Templars are victims of the Andrastian Chantry. Being tethered to Lyrium and being indoctrinated with religious bullshit is no freedom.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 1, 2016 18:13:54 GMT
No, this not same. You don't need to agree with all mages, but if you are a mage, and you are FREE, and you want to stay be free, then you don't have logical reason, that you agree that your kind live imprisoned/persecuted. That is, until yours is not free, how you can agree with the oppressors? Do you agree that for example the darker-skinned people do sould not eat in the same room with white people – or darker-skinned people don't deserve freedom? ____ But mage issue in DA not same as skin-color issue, because, as i wrote: the mages are dangerous weapons. One similar between this two: the discrimination. But in the first case there is no logical explanation for this, in the second this is exist. The people's afraid from the mages are justified. The imprisonment of the innocent, however, not be the solution. As long as this practice persists, as a mage, you naturally sided with mages. This not meant, that you agree with all mages. Disagreeing with mages even though you are a mage does not mean agreeing with oppressors. Reality is far more complex and nuanced than that. I do not see the Templars as oppressors, I see the Chantry as the oppressor. Both Mages and Templars are victims of the Andrastian Chantry. Being tethered to Lyrium and being indoctrinated with religious bullshit is no freedom. I always wrote: the templars are victims too. The problem is the thousand years Chantry propaganda against the mages. But just because the Templars also victims, I don't side with Templars, because this will not change if I side of the Templars, because with this choice I will support the system, not the freedom of the Templars.
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secretrare
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Post by secretrare on Oct 1, 2016 18:14:06 GMT
I like the concept of mages but sadly there are some mages that are especially good at ruining the reputation of all the other mages. So we need to say thank you to Solas,Corypheus,Architect&co,Uldred,AAnders,Morrigan and some other very friendly mages who are rather happy to kill for their goals or simply are reckless fools who toy with forces they don't understand.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 1, 2016 18:18:03 GMT
I like the concept of mages but sadly there are some mages that are especially good at ruining the reputation of all the other mages. So we need to say thank you to Solas,Corypheus,Architect&co,Uldred,AAnders,Morrigan and some other very friendly mages who are rather happy to kill for their goals or simply are reckless fools who toy with forces they don't understand. Anders never abuse his mage power, and he NEVER WANTED POWER. Just freedom.
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Prince
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Post by Prince on Oct 1, 2016 18:19:33 GMT
Both Mages and Templars are victims of the Andrastian Chantry. Being tethered to Lyrium and being indoctrinated with religious bullshit is no freedom. Only in their dreams can men be truly free. 'Twas always thus, and always thus will be.”.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 1, 2016 18:23:11 GMT
Only in their dreams can men be truly free. 'Twas always thus, and always thus will be.”. Okay. Then you agree with: all slaves need to stay as slaves, and the idea of the freedom are bullshit, and the slave-owning society are right. Why the slaves should be freed? They are very useful. And he best way to crime prevention that people with certain properties should been imprisoned, if possible even in their childhood. ___ (I never wrote that you quoted at my avatar. This was also Toyish Batphone)
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